Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 08 May 2013 20:43

darshhan wrote:I have a query wrt MIRVs. What is the maximum spread (as in Geographical size) that MIRVs aboard a single missile can achieve ?

I think that depends on the release height from the main bus and velocity that each warhead achieves on release. Also, other factors can come into play, like the kinds of maneuvers a MARV is to perform, if it has any re-entry decoys it has to launch and if the method in which these MARV maneuver (thrusters or physical selective braking or combination of both).

I think all these are classified numbers for ANY MIRV missile. But there is plenty of open source literature in the Interwebs. Most of it work done or declassified by the Americans.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 May 2013 23:15

It would depend on the capabilities of the RV. IRV may not reach a wide coverage spectrum when you say compared with capabilities of manueverable one. Again MARVs should have the required profile to increase the spread.

You need missile guru to answer in specific - arun_s types. To say it is even worth to consider a big target spread? Objectives to secrets being revealed against cost of such missions given logical validations of such needs.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 09 May 2013 00:01

dinesha wrote:
ramana wrote: Pay attention to the high energy weapons. Avinashji is telling us a roadmap.
Yes, DEW as offensive missile payloads would be quite a ballgame..I wounder how would they implement ..

There was a recent report of an EMP device kitted on a Tomahawk (IIRC) disabling communications infrastructure in one of the Khan deserts. I believe that in the test, the EMP blast was even a directionally-targeted one.

One use-case is to have Nirbhay fly over enemy C3I nodes, frying all their electronics. The challenge is the payload: a miniature EMP weapon that can produce a high energy microwave blast which can fry hardened electronics.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 09 May 2013 00:12

Singha wrote:A5 ASAT ..as you can see in link below the fulcrum, the loin of the whole thing is the comms and navigation sats which hang out at 20,000km orbit . a modified 3rd stage should be able to release some KV maybe....typically PSLV can reach such higher orbits so A5 may not be big enough.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... orbits.svg

the shourya is smaller, cheaper and should be able to knock out comint/imint sats that typically move in 700km orbits down to around 300km even.

Small correction: its 20K+ Miles. GeoStationary height is ~36000 Km

Talking out of my Musharraf, I think a modified A5/A6 might suffice for taking out higher orbit satellites. This is because the payload weight requirement is relatively small

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 May 2013 00:24

The terminal stage and payload would be orthogonally different for a NO-reentry vehicle. Infact ISRO can predeploy a set of modules to fly at geo sync orbit and our mil can execute commands from gnd. Test ca be done on again deployed dummies.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 09 May 2013 00:56

SaiK: there is a difference between a ground based ASAT and a space-based weapon. Moving from one to another crosses a line in the "weaponization of space" continuum

If you read the literature of star wars, there are tons of options & counter-options (at least ideas) if we want to go down the space-based weapon approach

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 May 2013 05:23

there is no proof others (p5) have not done or doing it. there is nothing in the world set of treaties that prevents us to build such capabilities.. we may not deploy it.

send it up, test it out.. and keep it ready,. it is just another capability test launch. we should not cross the line.. but we can check out what the line is though... and ensure there is no one already occupied.. like how chippanda and pakis keep occupying.

unless you go out there, you would not know. capabilities can be demonstrated by deep space missions, nuke powered space flights, mars deployments, precision docking on an asteroid, blasting a meteorite, etc.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 May 2013 09:04

for a start we could target one of our retired IRS satellites using a new KV + shourya . that will be a strong statement.

comsats are high up, but imint and sigint sats are well within shourya's reach. lack of this intel realtime in war situation will definitely deny the enemy a lot of time sensitive intel like movement of our missile units, ships leaving port or IAF sqdns relocating around.

ofcourse no need to litter the space with debris, but use thermal and video cams + radar to determine the exact intercept parameters and miss distance of the KV and whether the real explosive charge would be good enough for that. we could repeatedly target one or two of our retired sats with a inert KV to perfect the whole thing ..... like Agni has never been tested with a live nuclear warhead primed to burst.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 09 May 2013 10:40

Pranav wrote:Are there any lessons to be learned from Israel's ongoing air strikes on Syria?

It seems Syria has mostly Soviet / Russian air defense systems and they have not been very effective so far. Need to understand causes of failure.

Apparently the Israeli jets fired stand-off munitions from Lebanese airspace. Must have been out of range for Syrian AD.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/09/world ... .html?_r=0

Also -

Brig. Gen. Asaf Agmon, the director of the Fisher Institute for Air and Space Strategic Studies, told The Times of Israel recently that Syria’s air defense system, based on an earlier Russian technology, was already among the most advanced in the world.

Western media reported that the Israeli airstrikes on Iran-Hezbollah weapons transfers in Syria over the weekend were carried out from Lebanon, with pilots using a technique called “lofting” — essentially lobbing the bombs by speeding toward the border and pulling up at the last moment — rather than challenge Damascus’s air defense.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-say ... se-system/

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 12 May 2013 00:53

India's lone missile test-firing range Wheeler Island face sand erosion

CHENNAI: Changing sand patterns around India's lone missile test-firing range at Wheeler Island off Odisha coast is causing serious concern for Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and the agency is seeking assistance from Chennai-based National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT) to control the erosion.

"The sand patterns around the Wheeler Island are changing. Due to erosion, some 300 metres of sand area have submerged sometime and some sand is showing up in other part of the island," DRDO's chief controller (R&D) Avinash Chander said.
:
:
:

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 May 2013 04:09

http://whyfiles.org/091beach/5.html
Warming ocean = rising ocean?
http://whyfiles.org/091beach/4.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 May 2013 06:50

ocean warming will generally lead initially to a lower level as the volume of ice > volume of water somewhat...but once the mile thick antarctic ice sheet on top of land starts melting badly all bets are off. this is a continent as big as africa, with a mile of ice on top.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 May 2013 13:05

more H2O in the antartic ice cap than the atlantic ocean...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 May 2013 15:56

thanks for scaring the pants off me.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 13 May 2013 19:02

Water World, starring Kevin Costner

Or maybe, some day, the dolphins shall rule over us. And they will thank us eventually for all the fish before they leave the earth

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 May 2013 20:06

OT, but if Syria had some Naval CIWS Radar guided guns for high value targets, many of stand off PGM's can be knocked down. Hope India does this for key facilities

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 May 2013 20:59

India only has a few bofors l70 , tunguska and zsu23-4 with the army and nothing like guns with the iaf afaik.

A good gun system is definitely worth making and deploying in bulk to knock out bombs and cruise missiles.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 May 2013 21:45

Indian Ministry of Defence has launched a competition to acquire a new air defense system

India’s Ministry of Defence has launched a competition for gun/missile systems for the Army. And in a first for the MoD, it is asking domestic companies to participate along with overseas firms. The domestic defense companies that have been invited to participate in the US $1.6 billion tender have not produced the full gun/missile system, and only by teaming with overseas defense majors would these companies be able to fulfill the demand, private-sector executives here said. (Source DefeneNews)

An MoD official said the private companies that have been given the tender already have demonstrated their ability to integrate heavy weapon systems, including Akash missile systems and Pinaka multibarrel rocket launchers.

The competition for the purchase of five regiments —104 systems — of gun/missile systems would replace aging Russian-made Kvadrat systems (SA-6 Gainful) in the Indian Army.

The domestic companies that received the tender include state-owned Bharat Electronics, Larsen & Toubro (L&T), Tata Power SED, Punj Lloyd, Bharat Forge and ICOMM. No executive from any of the companies would say whether they have the system or how they will produce it.

Rahul Chaudhry, CEO of Tata Power SED, said his company is negotiating with a Western defense company, which he would not identify.

The foreign competitors receiving the tender are Rosoboronexport of Russia, Bumar of Poland, General Dynamics of the US, Thales of France, Doosan Group of South Korea, Israel Aerospace Industries and Elta of Israel.

The Indian Army wants to procure 4,928 missiles and 172,260 rounds of ammunition under full maintenance technology transfer.

The selected vendor will have to transfer technology for maintenance and lifetime support of the Self-Propelled Air Defence Gun Missile System, along with the missiles and gun ammunition, to state-owned Bharat Dynamics. The maintenance of the guns and ammunition will be done by the state-owned Ordnance Factories Board.

The proposed weapon system would be a mix of guns and missiles mounted on one or separate high-mobility vehicles. The tender requires that the gun and the missile should be able to engage aerial targets with and without the use of a fire-control radar. The gun should have a range of 2,500 meters and the missile should have a range of six kilometers. The radar should be capable of 360 degrees surveillance, target detection, acquisition and tracking.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 May 2013 21:47

The specs seems to suggest to me that its customised to procure Pantsir-S system ? Not sure if there are many integrated gun/missile system out there

http://en.rian.ru/images/15825/45/158254591.jpg

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 May 2013 21:55

Other than tunguska and pantsyr is there any such combo?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 May 2013 23:44

The proposed weapon system would be a mix of guns and missiles mounted on one or separate high-mobility vehicles.

From that news report , it seems the system can be single gun/missile or separate system mounted on high mobility vehicles , so they may procure guns and missile are two seperate system.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 14 May 2013 00:05

The competition for the purchase of five regiments —104 systems — of gun/missile systems would replace aging Russian-made Kvadrat systems (SA-6 Gainful) in the Indian Army.

This article from Ajai Shukla claimed that Akash missile system was under consideration to replace Kvadrat SA-6 in IA's strike corps.

Planned as a replacement for the army’s obsolescent Russian SAM-6 Kvadrat, the heart of an Akash missile battery is the Hyderabad-developed Rajendra phased-array radar that tracks up to 64 enemy fighter aircraft simultaneously, in a radius of 60 kilometres. The mobile command centre selects up to four of the most threatening air targets, and two Akash missiles are fired at each from the T-72 based Akash launchers, which move alongside. The Rajendra radar continuously guides the missiles, eventually “flying” them smack into the enemy fighters.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 May 2013 00:09

Perhaps they mean the SA-8 and SA-13 that the army has , SA-6 would be replaced by Akash for sure.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 14 May 2013 02:52

Given the proliferation of UAV's by Pakistan and China, this is a defense system to have in high numbers. It will be worthwhile making Akash system smaller and compact by trading range, instead of buying from outside.

Russian products were designed to take down aircrafts and they do not have enough anti UAV experience to begin with >> they will not be optimized for taking down low observable UAV's which is our primary requirement.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 14 May 2013 03:07

Weapon accuracy was a real concern. During upgrade trials, an upgraded MiG-27 conducted an HALR laser-pod assisted drop of a 500-kg dumb bomb from 7.5-km. Its missed distance was 15-metres. This was a dumb bomb, not a PGM.

Key reason why IAF is holding off on stocking up on PGMs??? the MIG 27 and Jaguar upgrades have provided enough accuracy to the venerable bomb trucks force in the IAF.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 May 2013 07:03

in gun systems, the oerlikon skyshield is the only one in news from the west. the UK/US doesnt seem to have any gun systems at all!
neither have I read of any in israel.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... eld_AA.jpg

I wonder if we could mount the AK630 on trucks and network a few of them with the barak EO + some other domestic radar system.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 14 May 2013 08:42

^^^The American phalanx system has a land based version (or at least a prototype). No doubt that the Israelies will use this opportunity to push the Iron Dome.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 May 2013 08:53

shooting a $2000 dumb bomb with a $1 million missile is a game we cannot win. even akash inspite of being cheaper is too large for that role.
spyder and derby or iron dome/vl mica/amraam none of them are cheap enough. trishul being passively guided with no onboard radar again would still be too costly.

only thing cost effective is a good cannon. we will need lots of them in a network around targets as their effective range seems to be 4kms max. idea is not to fill the sky with lead but controlled precision bursts under radar and EO tracking like a naval CIWS.

let missiles take care of CM/aircraft and guns tackle bombs/CMs at shorter range.

member_24903 · Post by **member_24903** » 14 May 2013 09:39

abhik wrote:^^^The American phalanx system has a land based version (or at least a prototype).

True

Already deployed in Iraq:

A test firing:

Source : Wikipedia

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 14 May 2013 11:18

^ Please no large inline images. It screws up formatting and makes following discussion much harder.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 14 May 2013 11:46

What about our shilkas and tunguskas?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 May 2013 12:09

Paul wrote:
Weapon accuracy was a real concern. During upgrade trials, an upgraded MiG-27 conducted an HALR laser-pod assisted drop of a 500-kg dumb bomb from 7.5-km. Its missed distance was 15-metres. This was a dumb bomb, not a PGM.
Key reason why IAF is holding off on stocking up on PGMs??? the MIG 27 and Jaguar upgrades have provided enough accuracy to the venerable bomb trucks force in the IAF.

does that work in night or bad weather?

member_24903 · Post by **member_24903** » 14 May 2013 12:27

Nikhil T wrote:^ Please no large inline images. It screws up formatting and makes following discussion much harder.

Changed Boss

, Hope it will do. Thanks for pointing out

Mark the video from 00:51 , I think test firing footage from Iraq.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 May 2013 12:52

Yogi_G wrote:What about our shilkas and tunguskas?

only seen with armour and mech formations, very limited nos.

we are talking about 500 target sites in india, with each site upto the size of 10kmx10km like a major cantonment or steel plant , refinery etc. each site could well need 10 networked guns for a bare minimum protection.

so thats 5000 guns and 500 control system right there.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 May 2013 13:01

I agree with Singha idea of AK-630M and Barak-1 on TATA trucks with stabilised platform integrated with Flycatcher Mk3 or Elta Radar would be a cheaper mass produce option something of desi jugad. It can be done and very much doable by BHEL , Tata or L&T

Whats the point in importing an ubber expensive specialised type when we have all the elements needed to build one.

member_24903 · Post by **member_24903** » 14 May 2013 13:09

Yogi_G wrote:What about our shilkas and tunguskas?

Hmm.., I think Shilkas' have been upgraded by IAI-BEL, as per media report life increased to 15 years.

koti · Post by **koti** » 14 May 2013 13:21

Singha wrote:shooting a $2000 dumb bomb with a $1 million missile is a game we cannot win. even akash inspite of being cheaper is too large for that role.
spyder and derby or iron dome/vl mica/amraam none of them are cheap enough. trishul being passively guided with no onboard radar again would still be too costly.

Can't completely agree Singha saab. The value of the weapons should include the installation it will likely takeout, and the numbers make sense. IA may not be able to afford IronDome along its border villages but it can definitely do a better job as far as the its anti-cruise missile anti-PGM defenses go.

koti · Post by **koti** » 14 May 2013 13:24

Austin wrote:I agree with Singha idea of AK-630M and Barak-1 on TATA trucks with stabilised platform integrated with Flycatcher Mk3 or Elta Radar would be a cheaper mass produce option something of desi jugad. It can be done and very much doable by BHEL , Tata or L&T

Whats the point in importing an ubber expensive specialised type when we have all the elements needed to build one.

I don't think integrating them to a system is that easy. An OSA-AKM being followed by a Shilka is not equivalent to a Tunguska or Pantsir.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 14 May 2013 13:45

I think the Pantsir-S-MKI, indianized version with a new AESA radar, based on the Tata platform should be the ideal for this requirement, it has standard dual 30mm auto cannons and 12 missiles with an effective rage of around 20km. This thing is ideal and has even shot down an incoming live cruise missile during tests.

I think this thing could be the last line of defence for all our major and forward airbases, landing grounds, critical nuclear assets, naval bases, army bases, critical command assets, oil fields, power plants, dams etc.

It is also the ideal system for our strike forces since they could protect our formations against incoming enemy attacks.
I think a massive order of around a 1000+ vehicles with full-tot and local manufacture. 12000 missiles

Critical assets can have upto 3 vehicles and with around 200 critical assets just about 600 of them can be dedicated for defensive uses another 400 can used by our strike formations. These should be the last line of defence for all our major assets and formations and with local manufacture and TOT, we can have such a massive network for around $10 billion.

I think such an order would also help maintain our status of the largest SAM network in the world. This combined with hordes of Akash, Barak-MR/LR, AAD, PAD should ensure our airspace is impregnable. However, AAD and PAD should also be produced in numbers.

vic · Post by **vic** » 14 May 2013 15:42

Austin wrote:Indian Ministry of Defence has launched a competition to acquire a new air defense system

India’s Ministry of Defence has launched a competition for gun/missile systems for the Army. And in a first for the MoD, it is asking domestic companies to participate along with overseas firms. The domestic defense companies that have been invited to participate in the US $1.6 billion tender have not produced the full gun/missile system, and only by teaming with overseas defense majors would these companies be able to fulfill the demand, private-sector executives here said. (Source DefeneNews)

An MoD official said the private companies that have been given the tender already have demonstrated their ability to integrate heavy weapon systems, including Akash missile systems and Pinaka multibarrel rocket launchers.

The competition for the purchase of five regiments —104 systems — of gun/missile systems would replace aging Russian-made Kvadrat systems (SA-6 Gainful) in the Indian Army.

The domestic companies that received the tender include state-owned Bharat Electronics, Larsen & Toubro (L&T), Tata Power SED, Punj Lloyd, Bharat Forge and ICOMM. No executive from any of the companies would say whether they have the system or how they will produce it.

Rahul Chaudhry, CEO of Tata Power SED, said his company is negotiating with a Western defense company, which he would not identify.

The foreign competitors receiving the tender are Rosoboronexport of Russia, Bumar of Poland, General Dynamics of the US, Thales of France, Doosan Group of South Korea, Israel Aerospace Industries and Elta of Israel.

The Indian Army wants to procure 4,928 missiles and 172,260 rounds of ammunition under full maintenance technology transfer.

The selected vendor will have to transfer technology for maintenance and lifetime support of the Self-Propelled Air Defence Gun Missile System, along with the missiles and gun ammunition, to state-owned Bharat Dynamics. The maintenance of the guns and ammunition will be done by the state-owned Ordnance Factories Board.

The proposed weapon system would be a mix of guns and missiles mounted on one or separate high-mobility vehicles. The tender requires that the gun and the missile should be able to engage aerial targets with and without the use of a fire-control radar. The gun should have a range of 2,500 meters and the missile should have a range of six kilometers. The radar should be capable of 360 degrees surveillance, target detection, acquisition and tracking.

Another requirement geared for indirect imports through Private parties. This practice should be discouraged. Pvt Parties should be invited to customize and integrate Astra + DRDO 30mm Air Defense Revolver Gun + DRDO Light radar to develop an appropriate system for Indian requirement.