Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Singha]

prahaar == cold start == khan will be unhappy?

that again shows all we care about is == or > TSP. the real threat is the dragon and no doubt the prodigious number of MLRS, SRBM and LongSword GLCM they are spending efforts to produce.

if we cannot even direct our major efforts to the real long term threats, all is lost. this is like american preparing to fight Italy in WW2 rather than germany

[Prem Kumar]

Ramana: I understand what you are hinting at. But it seems far-fetched. If it needs to happen with the IA's connivance, then successive chiefs including VKS must have been compromised. That's difficult to swallow.

I wouldnt put it past the GOI to scuttle modernization plans to keep parity. But I would seriously doubt IA would self inflict such wounds.

IA's lack of foresight & brochuritis is well known. Why attribute something to malice when it can be explained by incompetence?

[Avarachan]

As has been mentioned before, Prahaar is scheduled to be tested this year.

[member_20317]

Ramana: I understand what you are hinting at. But it seems far-fetched. If it needs to happen with the IA's connivance, then successive chiefs including VKS must have been compromised. That's difficult to swallow.

I wouldnt put it past the GOI to scuttle modernization plans to keep parity. But I would seriously doubt IA would self inflict such wounds.

IA's lack of foresight & brochuritis is well known. Why attribute something to malice when it can be explained by incompetence?

"till its needed" are the operating words.

[vic]

Prahaar will overlap some of the areas covered by Smerch. Guess who will win!

[member_20317]

Yes but Smerch will not overlap some of the more important areas covered by Prahaar. So the 'need' still remains the touchstone.

Basically I expect Prahaar to be a value for money proposition that will not be refused, at an appropriate time.

[Pranav]

Prahaar will overlap some of the areas covered by Smerch. Guess who will win!

Need to consider
- speed
- shaped trajectory
- accuracy
- payload
- range

Prahaar and Smerch are for different roles.

[Singha]

prahaar could be the ideal replacement for prithvi as a battlefield missile for high value targets. its range could no doubt be enhanced with a fatter version to 250km.

smerch will be cheaper area saturation weapon but since we dont own it and cannot modify it, the current 90km range is all we can get from it.

due to the special nature of the himalayan frontier, we have very limited areas where such big vehicles can get into , range needs to be high to permit coverage, I would argue even a 400km prahaarXL has a role to play if we field it.

nirbhay will take 5 more yrs to enter IOC and another 3 to hit full rate production. I am not expecting our 1st nirbhay regiment to be inducted before 2020. and prahaar is a lot harder to shoot down than a nirbhay. we need to field all types of weapons and not put all eggs in one basket.

[ramana]

Vic, Prahaar will come no matter but not before its time. smerch is no where in its class.

[Singha]

more importantly, smerch has no design or manufacturing control by us. we'd have to fork over another $1 billion to get a ER-smerch, while we get to tinker with local products any day of the week.

[venku_Raj]

DIAT develops indigenous fuel for supersonic Indian missiles

India’s missile project is likely to get boost with the country advancing towards making indigenous fuel for supersonic missiles and the fuel is developed by city-based Defence Institute of Advanced Technology (DIAT).

The missile fuel is eco-friendly, made from an Indian plant and is being tested at a Chandigarh-based laboratory. The fuel has been developed by a team of DIAT researchers which was led by city-based researcher SG Kulkarni.

Kulkarni was working on development of fuel used for scramjet and ramjet engine used in missiles. He has been developing fuel for the next generation Pulse Detonation Engine (PDE), which will be used in supersonic missiles.

Speaking to dna Kulkarni said, “India has been importing missile fuel which is of high cost and is made of synthetic material, which can be hazardous. After extensive research, we have come up with a missile fuel, which is made from a plant. The new fuel, being a product from a plant, is a renewable source of energy. It is a low-cost fuel compared to the imported fuel. Once the fuel is approved at all the levels, it will be a major break through for India’s missile programme.”

At present, the new fuel is being tested at the Terminal Ballistic Research Laboratory in Chandigarh and the results are quite encouraging.

“Worldwide research is going on fuel used for PDE, which is the advanced application for low subsonic to high supersonic engines used for missiles and jet engines. We were also working on this hydrocarbon-based fuel for PDE application and the results are promising.”

DIAT’s vice-chancellor Dr Prahlada, said, “The fuel will be cheap. There has been no compromise in terms of the fuel’s compatibility with other fuels. It is comparable with world-class JP-10 fuel, which is synthetic-based fuel.”

LINK

[vishvak]

Wow good going with R&D. +100 to desi scientists.

[member_20317]

Seems like some public sector research establishment had some product in hand but got left out of the race. Now they want to make reclamation attempt.

Could find no link.

Def Sci J, Vol 36. No 1, January 1986, pp l-8
On Performance Evaluation of a New Liquid Propellant
S. P. PANDA, S. G. KULKARNI & SEEMA D. KAKADE
Institute of Armament Technology, Pune-411025
S. P. TIWARI
Air Headquarters, Vayu Bhavan, New Delhi-l 10011
K. P. RAO
Explosives Research & Development Laboratory, Pune-411021
Received OS January 1985; revised 18 June 1985


Abstract.

A blend of 3-carene and cardanol in 70:30 weight proportion exhibits
synergistic hypergolic ignition with red fuming nitric acid (RFNA) as oxidizer.
Attempts have been made to evaluate this new propellant by theoretical calculation
of performance parameters and verification of the results by static firing of a 10 kg
thrust rocket motor around 20 atmosphers of chamber pressure. At an oxidizer-tofuel
weight ratio (O/F) of 3.34 (RFNA used had 21% N202, and 5% by weight of
concentrated sulphuric acid as catalyst), the propellant produced a reasonably
smooth pressure-time curve with an ignition delay of 35 milliseconds. The theoretical
characteristic velocity value matched well with the experimental. No carbon
residue was left in the rocket motor after firing. Specific impulse (theorefical) of
the propellant has been found to be 223.8 seconds at chamber pressure, 20 atmos
and exist pressure, 1 atmos.


1. Introduction

Hypergolic liquid propellants of specific interest in India are xylidine-triethylamine-red
fuming nitric acid (RFNA), hydrazine-RFNA and unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine
(UDMH)-N2O2. Fuels like xylidine, triethylamine and UDMH, though indigenous
and energetic are costly.
In search of a low cost fuel, we found that 3-carene, a major
constituent of Indian turpentine, when mixed with cardanol, a distillation product of
cashew-nut-shell liquid, in 70 : 30 weight proportion exhibited synergistic hypergolic
ignition with RFNA as oxidizer 1

[John]

smerch will be cheaper area saturation weapon but since we dont own it and cannot modify it, the current 90km range is all we can get from it.

Well Russia is testing the Tornado-S MRLS which is 120 km ranged and ironically it also is similar 6 tube system, i believe the plan to integrate that with Smerch. As for modifying Prahaar for 400 km we already have Brahmos for that purpose.

[Pranav]

smerch will be cheaper area saturation weapon but since we dont own it and cannot modify it, the current 90km range is all we can get from it.

Well Russia is testing the Tornado-S MRLS which is 120 km ranged and ironically it also is similar 6 tube system, i believe the plan to integrate that with Smerch. As for modifying Prahaar for 400 km we already have Brahmos for that purpose.

So that suggests that there is a role for Prahaar with its present range, it can be complimentary to the area saturation systems.

[Sagar G]

As for modifying Prahaar for 400 km we already have Brahmos for that purpose.

Their roles as well as their class are different, both are meant for different roles.

[John]

A guided 400 km ranged missile will have the same purpose as Brahmos.

[koti]

Modifying a missile to triple its range nothing but a new missile.
I don't know of any MRLS with such a capability. And having an area saturation at 400KM is scary.

[John]

^ Not even MGM-168 is capable of that, so you essentially need Isklander size missile to achieve that.

[abhik]

prahaar could be the ideal replacement for prithvi as a battlefield missile for high value targets.

Modern warfare is moving towards increasingly lower cost guided munitions targeting ever lower value targets. The more you turn the Prahaar into new-clear capable, double-S manoeuvring Brahmastra for "high value targets" will only make it more irrelevant. The Prahaar which traces its lineage from a high performance anti ballistic missile will never be able to match "guided" like the Tornado-S, GMLRS(which I understand has accuracy of <5 m CEP) etc. Also the launcher of the missile is a 12 wheel monstrosity whose mobility is highly questionable, especially in mountainous terrain. So there are definitely some issues consider while talking Prahaar induction. Either way I think the Army should request a clean sheet design mounted on a highly mobile platform which can fire multiple types of cost-effective rockets/missiles. Such a system could replace the Smerch and the Prithivi systems going forward.

[Sagar G]

A guided 400 km ranged missile will have the same purpose as Brahmos.

How ???

[koti]

^Range apart, same warhead capability.
What I fail to see is why stop at 400KM? I am guessing at Prahaar to be a bigger better and linearly costly to 9M55xx of Smerch, which makes sense to me. Anything more (minus Cruise) and I see advocacy of using strategic weapons at tactical level.

[Pranav]

prahaar could be the ideal replacement for prithvi as a battlefield missile for high value targets.

Modern warfare is moving towards increasingly lower cost guided munitions targeting ever lower value targets. The more you turn the Prahaar into new-clear capable, double-S manoeuvring Brahmastra for "high value targets" will only make it more irrelevant. The Prahaar which traces its lineage from a high performance anti ballistic missile will never be able to match "guided" like the Tornado-S, GMLRS(which I understand has accuracy of <5 m CEP) etc. Also the launcher of the missile is a 12 wheel monstrosity whose mobility is highly questionable, especially in mountainous terrain. So there are definitely some issues consider while talking Prahaar induction. Either way I think the Army should request a clean sheet design mounted on a highly mobile platform which can fire multiple types of cost-effective rockets/missiles. Such a system could replace the Smerch and the Prithivi systems going forward.

So there is no need to accurately strike defended, high-value targets, at a range of some 150 km?

[Prem]

72,0000 Prahars x 200kg of Phools for Fools will take 3x3=9 Minutes to give Moksh Diksha to each and every one of them. The we can pick the Phoosl of Fools and submerge in Hindu Mahasagar. This is not only a quick but alos the most economical, cost effective method to realize the objectives of both India and Pakistan.

[NRao]

Modern warfare is moving towards increasingly lower cost guided munitions targeting ever lower value targets

Cannot talk to the value of a target (However, I do not think that is true), but, the cost and guided that you mention was influenced by the accuracy of these gizmos. When the accuracy was bad (relatively) they needed heavy/large munitions to ensure that a target was destroyed. Now with far better accuracy they were able to reduce the size/weight of the munitions, thus also lowering the cost.

In fact I think it was LM that proposed a 7 pound guided bomb. They figured that with the high accuracy they were able to achieve all they needed was - what we would normally consider - a light bomb.

[Pranav]

^^^ Right, greater accuracy means lower cost to destroy target, even though cost per munition is higher.

[member_26965]

Otherwise CAG might write: wasted 3 missiles on a single target

[Sagar G]

^Range apart, same warhead capability.
What I fail to see is why stop at 400KM? I am guessing at Prahaar to be a bigger better and linearly costly to 9M55xx of Smerch, which makes sense to me. Anything more (minus Cruise) and I see advocacy of using strategic weapons at tactical level.

But Prahaar is meant to be a cheap weapon system while Brahmos is not, AFAIK Brahmos is meant for high value targets while Prahaar is like big brother of Pinaka. Then how come long range Prahaar == Brahmos ???

[John]

Sagar not sure where you read Prahaar was supposed to be cheap it is an all weather mobile system equivalent to ATACMS. To put into irrespective ATACMS which has been mass manufactured costs 1.2 million each and i can't speculate how much 400 km range variant would be. Naval version of Brahmos costs around 2.5 million. So overall they should IMO it should have a similar price tag, make sense since they would similar in size with latter using a cheaper liquid fuel but having a more expensive seeker.

If you want a cheap long range missile we should going for cruise missiles' not TBM.

[ramana]

Any updates on upcoming AV test by month end May?

[abhik]

So there is no need to accurately

Cheaper rockets based systems like the GMLRS have shown accuracy of <5m.

strike defended, high-value targets,

I think the missile/rocket should be made to full fill the largest possible use-cases rather than making an expensive and exotic missile for niche purposes.

at a range of some 150 km?

What is so special about this 150 km range, Has the Army demanded this exact configuration of range and payload? Or is it more a by product of the missile being a spin-off of an ABM.
All I am saying is that regardless of the IA deciding to get this missile or not they should definitely ask for a new clean sheet design for a cost-effective, highly mobile system which has the flexibility to fire multiple types of missiles which can be rapidly developed and deployed. I'm quite surprised that the Army hasn't done so already(at least as far as I know). Developing the Agni-5, 6 etc is great but the lower end shouldn't be neglected.

[Sagar G]

Sagar not sure where you read Prahaar was supposed to be cheap it is an all weather mobile system equivalent to ATACMS. To put into irrespective ATACMS which has been mass manufactured costs 1.2 million each and i can't speculate how much 400 km range variant would be. Naval version of Brahmos costs around 2.5 million. So overall they should IMO it should have a similar price tag, make sense since they would similar in size with latter using a cheaper liquid fuel but having a more expensive seeker.

DRDO Launches `PRAHAAR’ - Surface to Surface Tactical Missile

The Missile system is developed to provide Indian Army a cost effective, quick reaction, all weather, all terrain, high accurate battle field support tactical system.

I don't think that a longer range Prahaar would have a similar price tag to that of Brahmos which has a lot of Russian equipments on board for which we pay them and the liquid fuelled ramjet engine is equally pricey as the seeker. I am confused whether Prahaar has a seeker for terminal guidance or not since the link doesn't mention much and haven't read about it as well. If it doesn't then again that would mean reduced cost.

If you want a cheap long range missile we should going for cruise missiles' not TBM.

Don't know about that but Dr. Saraswat has to say this

A few Prahaar missiles could do the job of many Pinaka rockets, in devastating wide areas, Dr. Saraswat said.

[Pranav]

So there is no need to accurately

Cheaper rockets based systems like the GMLRS have shown accuracy of <5m.

strike defended, high-value targets,

I think the missile/rocket should be made to full fill the largest possible use-cases rather than making an expensive and exotic missile for niche purposes.

5 m is somewhat less accurate. Speed and maneuverability are important to get past CIWS defenses. Also, need sufficient payload to destroy hardened targets.

at a range of some 150 km?

What is so special about this 150 km range, Has the Army demanded this exact configuration of range and payload? Or is it more a by product of the missile being a spin-off of an ABM.
All I am saying is that regardless of the IA deciding to get this missile or not they should definitely ask for a new clean sheet design for a cost-effective, highly mobile system which has the flexibility to fire multiple types of missiles which can be rapidly developed and deployed. I'm quite surprised that the Army hasn't done so already(at least as far as I know). Developing the Agni-5, 6 etc is great but the lower end shouldn't be neglected.

Actually one would need the ability to hit targets accurately from distances of 50 km and higher. For < 50 km, guided artillery may be best.

[keshavchandra]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?client=mv-go ... LPERPmDX8Y

Dr. Avinash chander interview.

[John]

The Missile system is developed to provide Indian Army a cost effective, quick reaction, all weather, all terrain, high accurate battle field support tactical system.

Sagar cost effective and cheap are totally different things it is cost effective because it is more accurate better than firing multiple salvos of Grad or Pinaka missile because it is far more accurate saving $$$. Unless we use dirt cheap components and sacrifice accuracy like Eyran no chance that will be mass manufacturing these cheap (even those Fatahs supposedly cost couple hundred thousand according to IDF).

Don't know about that but Dr. Saraswat has to say this

He is talking about Prahaar not the Br fantasy 400 km Super Prahaar which would be 3-4 ton category...

[abhik]

5 m is somewhat less accurate.

5m is less accurate? Are there missiles/rockets out there with much greater accuracy?

Speed and maneuverability are important to get past CIWS defenses.

Is any body using CIWS defenses in anti-missile/rocket role in the neighbourhood?

[Austin]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?client=mv-go ... LPERPmDX8Y

Dr. Avinash chander interview.

Nice Interview , its a 3 part interview and with good details.

[Pranav]

5 m is somewhat less accurate.

5m is less accurate? Are there missiles/rockets out there with much greater accuracy?

Speed and maneuverability are important to get past CIWS defenses.

Is any body using CIWS defenses in anti-missile/rocket role in the neighbourhood?

Re accuracy, the most accurate munitions would use seekers with lock-on capability, with data-link and man-in-loop. That can give essentially direct hit capability.

With L2 military grade GPS signals high accuracy is possible; one can also use enhancements like WAAS or DGPS for 1 meter accuracy.

Re CIWS, why do you insist that one should not think beyond the neighborhood and not plan for tomorrow.

[member_20317]

GPS signals in the context of CIWS?

Is there any system that does that?

Ok sorrry about that, you people are discussing cost & desirability of Prahaar. Great. What guidance does it have. MEMS/FOGS/RLG?

[abhik]

Re accuracy, the most accurate munitions would use seekers with lock-on capability, with data-link and man-in-loop. That can give essentially direct hit capability.

With L2 military grade GPS signals high accuracy is possible; one can also use enhancements like WAAS or DGPS for 1 meter accuracy.

But are there any existing missile that claim accuracy of much less than 5m?

Re CIWS, why do you insist that one should not think beyond the neighborhood and not plan for tomorrow.

Are there any anti ballistic missile/rocket CIWS that are being tested? Else what is the point, might as well put in a requirement for the missile to be able to perpetrate Force-Fields just in case of an alien invasion.