Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 18 May 2013 09:18

that first pic is amazing..almost like riding on the eagle's back.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21191
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Prem » 18 May 2013 09:49

kuldipchager wrote:Jhujar
[b][i]Yes the news engine the one we use in SU 30 engine have been replaced the old R 29 engine. It have more thrust and reliable.[/b][/i]


Thanks, I found this Video
SMOTR: New Heart for MiG-27M of Indian Air Force! (English subtitles)

dinesha
BRFite
Posts: 1173
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 11:42
Location: Delhi

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby dinesha » 18 May 2013 20:20

X-post
Three Tri-service commands for Space, Cyber Warfare and Special Forces
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 115462.cms
The armed forces are now finalizing the plan for creation of three new tri-Service commands to handle space, cyber and special forces, which will be "critical" in deploying capabilities for conventional as well asymmetric warfare in a unified manner.

Contours of the Cyber, Aerospace and Special Operations Commands (SOC), after "a lot of spadework" over the past several months, are now being fine-tuned to ensure the "formal joint plan" can be presented to the government by end-July, say sources.

"The Aerospace Command, for instance, can be based at Hyderabad because of the presence of ISRO, DRDO there. Similarly, the SOC can come up at Delhi since the C-130J `Super Hercules' aircraft, which are customized for special operations, are based at Hindon airbase," said a source.

The chiefs of staff committee — headed by Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne and including General Bikram Singh and Admiral D K Joshi — as well as other forums of the top military brass have been mulling over the plan since last year, as was first reported by TOI.

Though the "urgent need" for Army, Navy and IAF to "synergise" their efforts in tackling challenges in the domains of space, cyber and special forces is well-acknowledged, especially with China furiously developing counter-space and cyber weapons, there has been no final decision on who will "mother" which command.

The experience of India's only theatre command at Andaman and Nicobar islands (ANC), with its commander-in-chief (a three-star officer like Lt-General, Vice-Admiral or Air Marshal) being rotated among the three Services, has not been successful. "Turf wars ensure the Services are not very keen to part with their assets for ANC," said the source.

At present, each Service gets to head the three unified commands — ANC, Strategic Forces Command (SFC) and Integrated Defence Staff (IDS) — by rotation. "But it is felt one particular service should have stake in a specific command that can draw assets and manpower from all three but is steered by that Service," he said.

So, a view that has emerged is that while SFC, IDS and Cyber Command can continue to be "rotated", ANC should be headed by Navy, Aerospace Command by IAF, and SOC by Army. "This fits in with the domain expertise of each Service. The government will of course have to take the final call on the new commands," he said.

India has floundered for long in setting up effective and unified structures to deal with threats in space and cyberspace as well as in strengthening its clandestine and "unconventional" warfare capabilities.

The Aerospace Command, for instance, has been demanded by the armed forces in the past also but the government has kept it in cold storage despite China having an expansive military space programme that extends to advanced ASAT (anti-satellite) capabilities with "direct-ascent" missiles, hit-to-kill "kinetic" and directed-energy laser weapons.

Cyber-warfare, too, is a frontline military priority for China. Cyber-weapons can cripple an adversary's strategic networks and energy grids, banking and communication, and even sabotage a country's nuclear programme like Iran learnt after the Stuxnet software "worm" destroyed a thousand of its centrifuges a couple of years ago.

Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1286
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Nikhil T » 22 May 2013 04:53

X Post

China deploys Su-27 fighters in Tibet, can target key Indian air bases

Image

New Delhi: China's all-weather fighter base in Tibet is now widening its range of options in the event of a conflict with India. Intelligence intercepts and satellite monitoring has confirmed that China may have to some extent overcome Tibet's extreme altitude and temperatures to operationalise an all-weather airfield near the Tibetan capital Lhasa.

The airfield is Gonkar, where China has deployed Su-27 fighters. Sources told CNN-IBN that the Gonkar airfield will enable Chinese fighters to widen their selection of Indian targets from Ladakh to Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh. Sources say Gonkar is a direct response to the Indian Air Force stationing Su-30MKI fighters in Chabua and Tezpur in Assam. These fighters with a combat radius of about 1,000 km can hit targets deep in Tibet and mainland China.

"I would say the development of Gonkar airfield started well before the upgradation by us of our defence infrastructure, which has taken off only in the past five to seven years. Gonkar started off much earlier, they had started building underground hangars and defence and began positioning their fighter aircraft there," former RAW officer Jaidev Ranade said.

The Chinese Air Force Su-27 fighters were observed in the winters and now with the onset of summer, they are still there, which suggests that China has built up infrastructure for their support.
It is advantage China since Gonkar is at an altitude of 16,000 feet. The fighters can take off only with less weapons payload or fuel. China has probably solved the problem by stationing an aerial refuelling aircraft at Gonkar or nearby. This will increase the range and endurance of the Su-27s.

With recent developments at Raki Nala in eastern Ladakh, the implications are clear. China has been
engaged in a deliberate upping of the diplomatic and military pressure on India, probing for weaknesses, testing India's resolve with the expectation that India will blink and back down.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55237
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby ramana » 22 May 2013 04:57

So they upgraded Gonkkar airbase. It was a weak point since mid 80s.
Gonkkar was being upgraded since then. Maybe stationing Su-27 is a response to recent moves.

member_26965
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_26965 » 22 May 2013 09:25

Good to see India taking a lead in basing deterring equipment there. Su-30 MKI compared to Su-27 is India's advantage i think.

tushar_m

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby tushar_m » 22 May 2013 09:45

Nikhil T wrote:X Post

China deploys Su-27 fighters in Tibet, can target key Indian air bases



New Delhi: China's all-weather fighter base in Tibet is now widening its range of options in the event of a conflict with India. Intelligence intercepts and satellite monitoring has confirmed that China may have to some extent overcome Tibet's extreme altitude and temperatures to operationalise an all-weather airfield near the Tibetan capital Lhasa.

The airfield is Gonkar, where China has deployed Su-27 fighters. Sources told CNN-IBN that the Gonkar airfield will enable Chinese fighters to widen their selection of Indian targets from Ladakh to Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh. Sources say Gonkar is a direct response to the Indian Air Force stationing Su-30MKI fighters in Chabua and Tezpur in Assam. These fighters with a combat radius of about 1,000 km can hit targets deep in Tibet and mainland China.

"I would say the development of Gonkar airfield started well before the upgradation by us of our defence infrastructure, which has taken off only in the past five to seven years. Gonkar started off much earlier, they had started building underground hangars and defence and began positioning their fighter aircraft there," former RAW officer Jaidev Ranade said.

The Chinese Air Force Su-27 fighters were observed in the winters and now with the onset of summer, they are still there, which suggests that China has built up infrastructure for their support.
It is advantage China since Gonkar is at an altitude of 16,000 feet. The fighters can take off only with less weapons payload or fuel. China has probably solved the problem by stationing an aerial refuelling aircraft at Gonkar or nearby. This will increase the range and endurance of the Su-27s.

With recent developments at Raki Nala in eastern Ladakh, the implications are clear. China has been
engaged in a deliberate upping of the diplomatic and military pressure on India, probing for weaknesses, testing India's resolve with the expectation that India will blink and back down.



satellite view shows 5 su27 parked in the airbase

https://maps.google.co.in/maps?q=Gonkar ... a=N&tab=wl

sorry can't get lat-long directions

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11211
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Gagan » 22 May 2013 15:01

The airfield is just south of Lahsa.
There are two more airfields, one just north of Nepal and the second east off Himachal Pradesh, with 5 Km+ runways

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8207
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby nachiket » 22 May 2013 23:26

Jhujar, no the Mig-27's engine was never upgraded. The IAF seems to have given up on the idea.

kuldipchager
BRFite
Posts: 117
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 20:35
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby kuldipchager » 23 May 2013 08:50

nachiket

Post subject: Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

PostPosted: 22 May 2013 23:26



Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49
Posts: 3826

Jhujar, no the Mig-27's engine was never upgraded. The IAF seems to have given up on the idea.



50 Mig 27 were upgraded with SU 30 Engine. After that I don't know if rest of were upgraded or not.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 23 May 2013 08:52

to my knowledge no engine up took place. but 40 Mig27 went through a limited avionics upg before the IAF decided not worth it for the rest.
their airframe life must be quite low vs the M2K/Mig29 for that decision to be made because these two are equally old or even older.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5426
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Kartik » 23 May 2013 09:35

no, not a single MiG-27 was upgraded with the Al-31 engine, or any other engine. 40 MiG-27s were upgraded with upgraded avionics and cockpit displays and EW gear.

nits
BRFite
Posts: 1020
Joined: 01 May 2006 22:56
Location: Some where near Equator...

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby nits » 23 May 2013 11:05

IAF for 6 more C-130Js, type crosses million flight hours globally

The Indian Air Force (IAF) cannot wait to get its next six Lockheed-Martin C-130J Super Hercules medium transport aircraft, a deal that is in its final stages of confirmation. Coming as a boost to C-130J customers worldwide, the type soared past the one million flight hours mark this month. “Thirteen countries operating C-130Js, and members of Lockheed Martin’s Flight Operations and the US Government’s Defense Contract Management Agency (DCMA) teams contributed to this achievement. Hours were tracked beginning with the C-130J’s first flight on April 5, 1996, through the end of April 2013


Just curious; how they tracker Hours for Planes which are operated by other countries... :roll:

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 23 May 2013 12:35

there is probably some sort of service record log that goes back to LM for maintenance tracking purposes

nits
BRFite
Posts: 1020
Joined: 01 May 2006 22:56
Location: Some where near Equator...

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby nits » 23 May 2013 12:47

something like my service center guy notes when my car goes for servicing ;)

Ganesh_S
BRFite
Posts: 198
Joined: 09 Mar 2010 06:40
Location: united kingdom

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Ganesh_S » 26 May 2013 16:36

http://www.firstpost.com/india/exclusiv ... 16465.html

The Air Force, sources said, argued that living facilities at the Defence Research and Development Organisation-run airstrip in Jagdalpur did not meet the standards its pilots expected.


Raises some serious questions. Are all the billion dollar procurement justified if the air force cannot put them to good use citing living standards ?

arijitkm
BRFite
Posts: 137
Joined: 12 Oct 2009 23:23

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby arijitkm » 27 May 2013 12:52

HTT-40 headed for disaster as development costs soar

The plan to build a Basic Trainer Aircraft (BTA) at home is headed for a nosedive as defence ministry has to take a crucial call on going ahead with the project because of high costs involved and a shaky delivery deadline promised by the aircraft maker Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The IAF, which is in dire need of basic trainers for rookie pilots, had projected requirement for more than 180 of these aircraft to smoothly run its problem-ridden flying training programme.

The government gave the go-ahead to buy 75 BTAs from foreign vendor and the remaining was to be delivered by Bangalore-based HAL which attempted to make a new aircraft, named HTT-40.

The IAF ordered 75 Swiss Pilatus PC-7 trainers last year of which 14 have been delivered on a fast-track basis as they were required urgently.

These aircraft would be formally inducted into IAF on May 31 by junior defence minister Jitender Singh, paving the way for starting training from July onwards.

All 75 aircraft are expected to be delivered by 2015, as per the contract terms.

The delay

Even as the new aircraft started arriving, the HAL’s plan to build the basic trainer has not made much headway.

As per the project report submitted by the company in 2011, it had promised to deliver two aircraft by 2019 and 10 by 2021.

At this rate, the IAF can begin training on home-built BTAs only by 2022. The delay has already forced IAF to begin the process to exercise “option clause” with Pilatus to buy another 38 aircraft.

The Defence Acquisition Council had mandated IAF to exercise the clause to buy more aircraft from the foreign vendor only if HAL’s HTT-40 does not take off before the delivery of first Pilatus PC-7.

With first Pilatus arriving in February and HTT-40 nowhere in sight, the IAF will go for 38 more PC-7s. The defence ministry has also been made aware that HTT-40 is going to cost at least the double the amount charged by the Swiss company for PC-7.

A detailed cost analysis showed that a Pilatus PC-7 was purchased for Rs 30 crore per aircraft.

Whereas HAL’s own cost structure showed that at 2011 price for 106 aircraft, each HTT-40 will cost Rs 34.9 crore. If capital cost is added then the price tag goes up to Rs 37.95 crore.


By adding design and development cost along with per annum escalation, the final cost of HTT-40 comes to Rs 67.6 crore per aircraft, double the price of PC-7.

The HAL insists that unlike Pilatus PC-7, its BTA will have a multi-role capability as it could be armed for weapon training.

It raises a question if a multi-role capability was required at all in a basic trainer. The defence ministry will also have to grapple with the issue of duplicity of trainers, which will escalate infrastructure costs further.


It will also go into the aspect if HTT-40 is based on a Beechraft aircraft which had lost bid to Pilatus. The IAF has been managing its pilot training programme without a basic trainer for some years.


Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 27 May 2013 17:29

Doesnt make sense to develop two trainers just to do the same job and increase opex for IAF , why doesnt HAL just lic manuf PC-7 and keep the logistics streamlined. Same of LOH why do we need two types of LOH either take the one which wins the competition or cancel that take what HAL build as LOH and keep logistics simple and streanlines for the IAF.

For HAL reducing Operational Expenditure may not be a criteria but for IAF it would go a long way in streamlining its different types.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24240
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby SSridhar » 27 May 2013 18:21

Antony inaugurates Sukhoi airbase in Thanjavur - The Hindu
Image
A Sukhoi-30 aircraft takes off and flying at the Dedication ceremony of
Airforce station in Thanjavur on Monday.Photo:B.Velankanni Raj

Strengthening India’s presence over the Indian Ocean region, Defence Minister A K Antony on Monday inaugurated the first fighter aircraft base here in southern India where the IAF is stationing its most lethal Su-30MKI combat aircraft.

“Thanjavur airbase is going to be another strategically important airbase of the Indian Air Force. By stationing our frontline fighter aircraft Sukhoi at Thanjavur, IAF can protect vast area of interests,” Mr. Antony said after inaugurating the airbase.

The establishment of the premier fighter base is important in the view of current geo-political scenario and threat perception in the peninsular region and in the Indian Ocean, the Defence Minister said.

“There is a threat of piracy and terrorism and also emerging security scenario around the country is volatile,” Mr. Antony said.

“Even though we are a peace loving country but we have to be ever ready to face any kind of aggression towards our national security,” he said.

The Defence minister mentioned that the assets envisaged for the futuristic airbase would be able to provide security to all the strategic and vital installations in this region.

“The new airbase and induction of the Sukhoi will instil confidence in the country and neighbourhood as Indian Air Force can protect our interests from this Air Force Station more,” Mr. Antony said.

The inauguration ceremony was marked with the flypast by two Sukhoi-30 aircraft.

This would be the first ever fighter base in Southern Peninsula under the control of Southern Air Command.

The full Sukhoi squadron (16 to 18 jets) will be deployed at the base by 2017-18, after the requisite facilities come up over the next few years.

So far India has inducted over 170 of the 272 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia.

Pune and Bareilly already have housed two Sukhoi squadrons each, while Tezpur, Chabua, Halwara and Jodhpur have a squadron each.

At the Thanjavur airbase, the IAF in future may deploy unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) as it had operated them in Thanjavur in the past also, IAF sources said.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby abhik » 27 May 2013 20:15

Austin wrote:Doesnt make sense to develop two trainers just to do the same job and increase opex for IAF , why doesnt HAL just lic manuf PC-7 and keep the logistics streamlined. Same of LOH why do we need two types of LOH either take the one which wins the competition or cancel that take what HAL build as LOH and keep logistics simple and streanlines for the IAF.

For HAL reducing Operational Expenditure may not be a criteria but for IAF it would go a long way in streamlining its different types.

^^^True that. HAL is trying to muscle into contracts by developing duplicates of technically less risky product types like the light trainer and LOH. This while ignoring far more important systems like the Medium Lift Helicopter(of which we have been hearing of from aeons but is not even on the drawing board) or a UAV (existing programmes seem to be running in ultra slow motion).

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Vipul » 27 May 2013 20:39

Japan, India to discuss military plane sales.

Japan is close to signing an agreement to supply amphibious planes to India, a report said on Monday, in what would be the first sale of hardware used by the military since a weapons export ban was imposed on Japan. During a four-day visit to Tokyo by Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, starting later Monday, the two sides are set to firm up plans for Delhi to purchase the US 2, a domestically-developed aircraft used by Japan’s armed forces.

The sale, reported by the Nikkei business daily, would be the first of a finished product made by Japan’s homegrown defence industry since rules were imposed restricting the export of weapons systems and other equipment.It would also mark a strengthening of the alliance between Japan and India, which both see rising China as a threat to regional stability.

Experts say the aircraft must be classed as for civilian use if it is to comply with Japan’s 1967 self-imposed ban on arms exports, part of the post-World War II anti-militarist drive.

The US-2, which was developed by ShinMaywa Industries Ltd and has been sold to the Japanese navy at a price tag of roughly ¥10 billion ($99 million), has a range of 4,700 km and can land in seas with waves of up to three metres (nine feet).“If the US-2 is exported to India for civilian use, that would be the first case of exports of Japanese-developed weaponry used by the defence ministry for civilian use,” a trade ministry official in charge of arms sales told AFP.ShinMaywa opened a sales office in New Delhi last year and has been promoting the plane there, a spokesman for the company said.
“We hear there is some demand from the Indian government but decline to comment further as we have yet to reach a contract,” he added.

The Nikkei said India is looking to acquire at least 15 of the aircraft.

Japan has sought to expand the market for its defence industry. It has previously exported technology or parts of military hardware, but has not sold any finished products.The plane could be deemed to have a non-military—for example, search and rescue—purpose if “friend-or-foe” identification systems were disabled, officials said, making it eligible for export.

In 2011, Tokyo eased the decades-old ban on arms exports, paving the way for Japanese firms to take part in multinational weapons projects.
The reported talks on sales “are based on policy decisions made a few years ago that Japan has to support its defence industry by diverting military technology to civilian use for export”, said Takehiko Yamamoto, professor of international relations at Waseda University.Otherwise, major Japanese firms such as Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries “will not able to maintain their pool of engineers to develop military technology that is essential for the defence of Japan”, he said.Boosting exports from Japan’s manufacturing behemoths is a key part of Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s plan to revive the economy.Abe and Singh are scheduled to meet on Wednesday for a summit expected to concentrate on trade and investment.

sivab
BRFite
Posts: 1006
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby sivab » 27 May 2013 21:03

Austin wrote:Doesnt make sense to develop two trainers just to do the same job and increase opex for IAF , why doesnt HAL just lic manuf PC-7 and keep the logistics streamlined. Same of LOH why do we need two types of LOH either take the one which wins the competition or cancel that take what HAL build as LOH and keep logistics simple and streanlines for the IAF.

For HAL reducing Operational Expenditure may not be a criteria but for IAF it would go a long way in streamlining its different types.


That article is a hit job by some corrupt PC-7 middleman who will lose a lot if HTT-40 ever comes into existence. Consider following facts:

1. IAF has clearly said that they don't want HTT-40. If IAF doesn't want it, no one can force it on them. Have you seen anything like that happen in India.

2. HAL is clear that HTT-40 is an internal product developed with HAL's own money. They feel confident about doing it and have realized the need to survive by making some products on their own rather than relying on screw driver lic mfg. They are preparing for the day they will lose monopoly status. DPP-2013 removes DPSU monopoly and lets private sector compete with them.

So who is afraid of HTT-40 coming alive? Definitely not IAF. On the other hand, if HAL makes a good HTT-40, PC-7 may have more competition (however remote) in future and middleman may lose. This is a hit job to preclude that possibility to kill HTT-40 and keep HAL tied to lic mfg PC-7.

Let me repeat, IAF has no current interest in HTT-40. Its HAL's money and they see HTT-40 as necessary for their survival.

The price comparison for HTT-40 in that article is laughable. Current cost of PC-7 Vs inflation adjusted future cost of HTT-40 including development R&D costs.

One more time, no one can force IAF to buy HTT-40, so why this hit job? Some one is very afraid that HAL may be successful with HTT-40.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vic » 27 May 2013 21:23

I agree with Sivab about HTT-40. Also am also against useless costly import from Japan.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 27 May 2013 22:20

sivab wrote:One more time, no one can force IAF to buy HTT-40, so why this hit job? Some one is very afraid that HAL may be successful with HTT-40.


Thats not true really , HAL have their own lobby within MOD and even if the product is delayed and has cost over runs they can use their lobbying effort within MOD to let IAF buy HTT-40 or rather shove it down IAF throat and that opens a pandora box something IAF wants to avoid hence showing disinterest from its conceptual stage.

Without IAF buying HTT-40 do you seriously feel HAL would be able to convince any other airforce to buy this trainer ? IAF is the end customer for HAL and there is little to show on HAL part till date that they can sell any product without the primary customer using it some form , HAL confidence does not mean its a good business decision.

HTT-40 is a case of too little and too late ,HAL is just trying to fish in troubled water . HAL can better put the effort in convincing MOD to cancel LOH tender and develop their LOH and then sell it to IAF.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby abhik » 27 May 2013 22:26

sivab wrote:Its HAL's money and they see HTT-40 as necessary for their survival.

Its not HAL chief's uncles money that they free to spend on their whim. It is 100% owned by the government and it gets a vast majority of its turnover from the government. Its the governments and thus the peoples money. "Its HAL's money" is a silly and specious argument.
And all those who think that this is actually helping the Indigenisation cause are being naive. Fact of the matter is that the local industry is just not large and mature enough to completely obviate arms import. In such a scenario one would try to maximize indigenous arms by concentrating on the some items (the most important and high-value) and leave the rest to the imports. But what HAL is trying to do is to take spend its sparse resources in developing duplicates of the weapon types who's importation is already a done deal. Why didn't it go after the medium lift helicopter after the ALH, instead of the LUH. Why doesn't try and develop a Preadator like UAV or invest in civilian transport aircraft etc instead of the HTT-40. India will have to import billions worth of these helicopters/aircraft, much more than what is to be saved by making these piecemeal duplicates. Net-net HAL current course of actions will increase importation rather than reduce it. And the worst part is that HAL will eventually get to screw-driver assemble the import which is less risky, far easier and more lucrative than designing and building your own aircraft. This is the real scam.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7743
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby rohitvats » 27 May 2013 22:51

Austin wrote:Doesnt make sense to develop two trainers just to do the same job and increase opex for IAF , why doesnt HAL just lic manuf PC-7 and keep the logistics streamlined. Same of LOH why do we need two types of LOH either take the one which wins the competition or cancel that take what HAL build as LOH and keep logistics simple and streanlines for the IAF.

For HAL reducing Operational Expenditure may not be a criteria but for IAF it would go a long way in streamlining its different types.


As I had speculated earlier, the per unit cost of HTT-40 was too good to be true.

There is no economic reason for going for HTT-40. The deadline for development of the a/c itself makes it non-viable from the operational perspective. And these are estimates given when everything is on paper. There is no saying on the delays.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16965
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 27 May 2013 23:27

It is very funny that the cost of the HTT-40 has changed so drastically in such a short time - few weeks or months.

Sounds fishy to me. Someone within India is against this machine.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16965
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 27 May 2013 23:54

May 23, 2013 :: HAL HTT-40 Development Being Fast Tracked

The turboprop trainer for the IAF is being developed at ARDC, which has already released more than 200 drawings. The CNC and machine shops have started fabrication of components.

First prototype of HTT-40 is scheduled to fly in June 2015.

Indigenous defense equipment is the new mantra.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16965
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 27 May 2013 23:57

May 23, 2013 :: HAL Connect :: HTT-40 Aircraft Parts Manufacturing in Full Throttle

The detailed design of HTT-40 is
progressing at ARDC on a fast track mode
and more than 200 drawings are already
released. The CNC and machine shops
have started fabrication of components.
Shri T. Suvarna Raju, Director (D&D) along
with senior officials of ARDC visited the
shop to get a first hand experience of HTT-
40 related manufacturing activities. First
prototype of HTT-40 is scheduled to fly in
June 2015. ARDC has taken up the design
and development of a state-of-the-art,
single engine Turboprop ab-initio trainer
HTT-40 to replace the HPT-32 aircraft.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16965
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 28 May 2013 00:05

May 1, 2013 – Domestic Tender Notice for Hydraulic Pump,Industrial Equipment Repair has been invited by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Bengaluru, Karnataka, India.

May 1, 2013 – Domestic Tender Notice for Display Box has been invited by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Bengaluru, Karnataka, India. Tender information published on ...

May 1, 2013 – Development And Supply Of Emergency Accumulator Manifold For HTT-40 Progm At Bengaluru. View favourite tenders. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited ...

May 1, 2013 – Supply Of Angle Of Attack (AOA) System For HTT-40 Programme At ...

Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1286
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Nikhil T » 28 May 2013 00:12

abhik wrote:Its not HAL chief's uncles money that they free to spend on their whim. It is 100% owned by the government and it gets a vast majority of its turnover from the government. Its the governments and thus the peoples money. "Its HAL's money" is a silly and specious argument.


It is HAL's money. The profits and the cash reserves of HAL don't go into the Consolidated Fund of India. HAL exists as a separate firm for exactly the same reason! Also, why only think of IAF. Can't HAL think of exporting HTT40 to African and Latin American countries?

abhik wrote:Why doesn't try and develop a Preadator like UAV or invest in civilian transport aircraft etc instead of the HTT-40.


UAVs are a DRDO & NAL responsibility with HAL only providing production. When Rustom I is undergoing flight tests and Rustom II in design stage, what can HAL do? As has been confirmed multiple times, Rustom II is a 'Predator like UAV'. And NAL is the agency for civilian aircraft and test flights are already happening. Do you want another project for the same?

abhik wrote:And all those who think that this is actually helping the Indigenisation cause are being naive. Fact of the matter is that the local industry is just not large and mature enough to completely obviate arms import. In such a scenario one would try to maximize indigenous arms by concentrating on the some items (the most important and high-value) and leave the rest to the imports. But what HAL is trying to do is to take spend its sparse resources in developing duplicates of the weapon types who's importation is already a done deal. Why didn't it go after the medium lift helicopter after the ALH, instead of the LUH. (snipped..)
India will have to import billions worth of these helicopters/aircraft, much more than what is to be saved by making these piecemeal duplicates.

So HAL should be expected to churn out latest generation of helicopters and aircraft without an experience of building basic trainers? LCA deja vu anybody?

Net-net HAL current course of actions will increase importation rather than reduce it. And the worst part is that HAL will eventually get to screw-driver assemble the import which is less risky, far easier and more lucrative than designing and building your own aircraft. This is the real scam.


Again the chicken and the egg arguments. "India can't produce advanced arms because local industry is not large enough and developed but HAL should concentrate on substituting high value arms imports without having to work on low tech products first."

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4823
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby srai » 28 May 2013 07:12

Nikhil T wrote:...
abhik wrote:Why doesn't try and develop a Preadator like UAV or invest in civilian transport aircraft etc instead of the HTT-40.


UAVs are a DRDO & NAL responsibility with HAL only providing production. ...
...
"India can't produce advanced arms because local industry is not large enough and developed but HAL should concentrate on substituting high value arms imports without having to work on low tech products first."


True. DRDO is a large entity comprising of many divisions each with its own R&D specialisation. Multiple divisions contribute to a complex project like the LCA, Arjun MBT, UAV, etc. HAL, for the most part, is the primary production agency for aerospace products as is OFB is for ordnance. DRDO focuses on new technology/material R&D that aren't readily available from abroad while the production entities HAL/OFB are left to do their own R&D on "simpler" projects, such as reverse-engineering of unguided air-to-surface rockets/bombs or turbo trainer etc. IMO, both are required if 70% indigenisation is to be realised.

Coming to the HTT-40 argument, the IAF has a requirement for over 200 turbo trainers. Pilates PC-7 will make up 112 (75+38) units. This still leaves enough units to be acquired by the IAF for HTT-40 to be viable for international export. The IN could be the other domestic customer. In the armed role, HTT-40 could be used by the IA for counter-insurgency roles. It's also a low-end product that the Indian government could donate to "friendly" nations as a goodwill gesture like they have done with the ALH.

member_26965
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_26965 » 28 May 2013 09:00

Total strength of scientists in DRDO is Just 7500. To call it large will be overkill.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4823
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby srai » 28 May 2013 09:47

ranji wrote:Total strength of scientists in DRDO is Just 7500. To call it large will be overkill.


I believe the total head count (including those 7,500 scientists) is around 30,000+.

member_26965
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_26965 » 28 May 2013 10:13

As per AK Antony in parliament some 30k including technical and support staff. This stats makes it big.

7500 scientists is puny compared to the scale of work is expected to be done.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vic » 28 May 2013 14:06

It is shamelessly dishonest article against HTT-40. The article fails to emphasize that HTT-40 can be used in combat and CAS unlike PC-7 which has zero armament ability. HTT-40 is way more advanced compared to PC-7. Further the stink of bribes for writing the article is evident from the fact that the article claims that HTT-40 will have price escalation but keeps silent that PC-7 will also have similar and perhaps even higher price escalation. One has to be mentally retarded to believe that this useless Swiss junk is better or cheaper than HTT-40. We have all heard that:-

LCA is lighter than MRCA
Arjun is heavier than T-90
Prahaar is heavier than Smerch and lighter than Brahmos
LCH is lighter than Apache etc etc The explanations to justify import are all rubbish.

I think HAL should tie up with Reliance. Reliance can handle the bribes and HAL production, this will be the perfect JV.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16965
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 28 May 2013 15:09

That HTT-40 article seems to have originated in the UK. At this point I would not trust it. Besides those figures just do not seem right. A cost escalation of 100% in a month or two is for the True Believers.

Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Sagar G » 28 May 2013 18:59

NRao wrote:Someone within India is against this machine.


Yeah and it's named IAF under the tremendous guidance of MoD.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7743
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby rohitvats » 28 May 2013 22:14

Sagar G wrote:
NRao wrote:Someone within India is against this machine.


Yeah and it's named IAF under the tremendous guidance of MoD.


But for the patriots inhabiting the BRF, the country would have already been lost. :rotfl:

Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Sagar G » 28 May 2013 22:25

The "Patriot or Not" labelling force is out I see.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 40 guests