Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 04 Jun 2013 06:13

matrimc wrote:OK. Sudarshan had very eloquently destroyed the "higher caste" and "lower caste" argument. But would the polemicists listen to reason?

They most likely will not. Which is why I say, it's not the polemicists who are the target, it's the fence-sitters, the ones who are in the "pre-polemicist" stage. Use your arguments to demolish the rabid Hindu-haters, but don't expect to sway them. Rather, demolish their propaganda in front of a larger audience, and let them see for themselves, that the Hindu-haters are not willing to listen to reason.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 04 Jun 2013 08:15

venug wrote:Cross posting from debates and arguments thread...

3. He is of the opinion that Gita too in many places encouraged looking down on shudras, he didn't quote any verses to prove his point.

As far as points 1, 2 and 3 are concerned, I find that troubling too, I can't understand how this is possible, I know this is a pure Dradivian drivel, would like to know counter perspectives to counter such point of views.

As far as point 3 is concerned, your friend might be referring to this..(Of course he may be clueless and simply parroting what he heard/read from another agenda driven writing. That is why I prefer to ask such people to provide specific reference (politely, I might add) so that it can be discussed in the context.

Bhagavad Gita 9:32

mam hi partha vyapashritya yepi syu papa yonayah
striyo vaishya tatha shudras te pi yanti param gatim

Chapter 9, talks of how serving the society with one's Swa-dharma can lead one to Moksha.

2 verses preceding above verse, (9:30-31) refers to how even a'Durachari' can quickly attain righteousness, by following Swa-dharma (What qualifies as Swa-dharma is another topic, which I won't go into here)

thus the first part of above (9:32) is referring to those Duracharis (my educated guess....the word is Papayonah).

Papayonih may also refer to animals, but someone with better knowledge can comment on this.

and next line says, that women, vaishyas and Shudras can also attain Moksha by simply following Swa-dharma.

(Some translators have indeed applied this adjective - papayonah - to women, Vaishas and Shudras....which I consider incorrect.) in which case, one may use this reference of Gita as referring to women, vaishya and Shudras as of lower birth.

------------------
I would encourage folks to read entire chapter 9 for the right context. and frankly they may want to read first 8 which forms baseline for the 9th.
--------------
Back to 9:32, Rest of Mahabharata is consistent with the meaning described by me above (bold and underlined).

Quick Highlights (from Mahabharata)

(1) Janaka is sent to Sulabha (lady) for seeking additional knowledge by Shuka and or Vyasa!!!!

(2) Jajali Brahman has to go to Tuladhar Vaishya for the same!!!

(3) and a tapaswi but egoist Brhamin is been sent by his Guru to Vyadha (not Vayasa), the butcher (shudra?) for final lessons before Brahmin's graduation!!!

Hope this helps....

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 04 Jun 2013 08:33

Venug ji,

Another potential verse is 5:18

It simply says ..person who is free from delusion, a Jnani -who is naturally full of knowledge and is humble, sees cow, elephant, a Brahmin, dog or dog eater (shudra?) with equanimous vision.
----------------
Which also means one who is ignorant may make distinction. Again, the subject referred to here is distinguishing characteristics of Sanyasi (not in the ordinary sense of one with saffron robe.. but rather a state of mind).
-------------
All references are to be understood in the context. In modern context.. dog-eater (which is translation of Sanskrit word, incorrect again, Chandal) may be translated as Chinese or those adventurous gourmet visitors to China. I am simply quoting this to illustrate how fast one can go downhill, if one is not careful.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Jun 2013 08:46

matrimc, And to add more confusion Vishwamitra and Parsurama were related on their mother' side.
do look up their origins.

Vishwamitra's aunt was grandma of Parsurama!

And she was a kshatriya princess.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 04 Jun 2013 09:10

ramana wrote:matrimc, And to add more confusion Vishwamitra and Parsurama were related on their mother' side.
do look up their origins.

Vishwamitra's aunt was grandma of Parsurama!

And she was a kshatriya princess.

Aren't both of them belonging to Bhrigu Clan, which produced many greats.....who were (acted) Brahmins, Kshatriyas (again based on what they did).. the famous Vishwamitra (his descendants were also called Vishwamitra) who moved from Rajashri (Kshatriya) to Maharshi to Brahmarshi.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 04 Jun 2013 13:54

In fact "Suta" is not a varna like Bramins etc. If a bramin women married a Khathria man the childered are Sutas. They are kings from these people in those times also. Kichaka (famous Brother in law of Virata king of Mathsya Desha) is one of them. His neice Uttaka (child of Suta ladu Sudheshta and Khathriya Virata) marries Adhimanyu - into khathria purus. So varna is not parnanent as we view today. When you can marry Rakshasas - Bhima and Hidimba. Nagas - Arjuna and Uloochi and etc.

Brits and other Euro invaders of Africa also created clans etc there and all the clan related violence is because of that. They created artificial nations like Iraq, Saudi Arebia with their chachas are rulers and middle east is now a mess.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 04 Jun 2013 19:12

Nilesh ji, thank you, and congratulations on your book getting the nomination. It is indeed an acknowledgment of your awesome work. I will be using yours and others pointers as well. But then I started thinking, don't we need to analyze these portrayals seriously? the reason for seriousness is mainly in the southern states like Tamil nadu, Christian and Dravidian vadis use these arguments to bash Hinduism. It will be very useful to a purvapaksha and get to the truth of many ills that are ascribed to Hindu Dharma.

Some ills are a reality like jaati system. But what Dravidian and other Hindu bashers do is they selectively take excerpts out of context and put a spin. Anyone who has not read much could fall for them. This is important also because it is a strategy to "Break India" intentionally or not, we need to have some background info to atleast to defend what is right and show why they are wrong.

Do you think it is a good idea to start a thread which discusses issues like the following:
1. Sati System - what it is, historicity, practice, does hindusim prescribe or proscribe? Rg Vedic verses keep getting quoted to prove this.
2. Dowry system - origins, what do our scriptures say etc
3. Ramayana portrayal : about Sita doing Agni pareeksha, vali killing etc.
4. Adi-Sankara - was he casteist?
5. Caste politics of MB. Does Gita support Caste/jaati system?
6. Female infanticide, do scriptures encourage this?

I am limited in my knowledge, I will be seeking all the Gurus help. I will contribute in terms of writing as much as I can and collecting material. If you think it's a good Idea we can start a new thread. It could prove useful later. Certainly my intention is not to put down other religions, I dont want to discuss religion, but to defend what is right and ackowledge what is wrong and if possible what can be done. These topics might have been discussed but not with a focus. I saw some posts by Johnee ji and others, but they are everywhere. Or may be if we can discuss here we can do it here in this thread.

Added later: Even jaati/varna system should be discussed, I know that was done in "The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition" thread, but these are issues related to Hindu practices, there could be overlap but they need a separate focus.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 04 Jun 2013 21:58

And what is the deal with sangam literature? I keep Theo ji talking about? any references to it?

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 05 Jun 2013 00:18

Venug ji,

In the context of some of the issues you have enumerated for discussion,

History of Dharmashastra Vol 1 through 5, by Bharat Ratna & Maha Mahopadhyay P V Kane (Panduragn Vaman Kane)

could provide a good reading. Libraries of any good University would have them. I happen to refer to only one of the 5 volumes, when I was writing MBH War book, in the context of my research on timing of Mahabharata War and specifically various thoughts on 'Kaliyuga'.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 05 Jun 2013 00:49

^^ It appears that it is available on archive.org

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 05 Jun 2013 01:49

@ Nilesh ji , abhishek ji, thank you, I think I will start with that. But wow

6500 pages!

Regards.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Jun 2013 01:56

venug wrote:And what is the deal with sangam literature? I keep Theo ji talking about? any references to it?

what are you looking for, I can ask my SHQ to provide those info. Only a collection is left, while most of the literature is considered lost! especially pre-sangam is a big tsunami wipe-out/ice-age.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 05 Jun 2013 02:24

SaiK ji, I don't know anything about it, but Theo ji mentioned it in the Secular thread. So wanted to know what is it about? initial searches on the net led me to some Dravidian theorists who were using Sangam literature to put forth their agenda. So was curious about it. When you don't know anything about it, it is of course difficult to form an opinion.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jun 2013 02:58

Nilesh Oak wrote:
ramana wrote:matrimc, And to add more confusion Vishwamitra and Parsurama were related on their mother' side.
do look up their origins.

Vishwamitra's aunt was grandma of Parsurama!

And she was a kshatriya princess.
Aren't both of them belonging to Bhrigu Clan, which produced many greats.....who were (acted) Brahmins, Kshatriyas (again based on what they did).. the famous Vishwamitra (his descendants were also called Vishwamitra) who moved from Rajashri (Kshatriya) to Maharshi to Brahmarshi.

Story goes like this. There was once a king named Gaadhi who had beautiful daughter named Satyavati. Brighu's son Richika came seeking her in marriage. The king set a difficult task: he wanted a thousand horses with white color and one black ear. So the sage Richika prayed to Varuna and got the aswhas and the bride. Brighu was very happy with his daughter-in-law and asked her to seek two boons. She asked that her mother be blessed with a son to continue the royal dynasty. Brighu told them to do a penance and a ritual. Due to confusion the two women mother & daughter ended up doing the other's part. Brighu said that the mother would get a kshatriya(warlike) son who is brahmin(learned) in nature. The daughter would get a brahmin son who was kshatriya in nature. She asked her second boon and wanted that progeny to be her grandson and not her son as she wouldn't be able to control him. So Jamadagni was born to her and his son from princess Renuka was Parasurama. The mother gave birth to Vishwamitra.
As we all know, Shakuntala was Vishwamitra & Menaka's daughter, and her son with Duyshanta is Bharata after whom Bharatvarsh or India is named.

Leading us to Bharat-Rakshak!

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 05 Jun 2013 03:01

>> And what is the deal with sangam literature?

Right. I too don't know much about it. Any decent translation?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 05 Jun 2013 04:24

ramana wrote:Story goes like this. There was once a king named Gaadhi who had beautiful daughter named Satyavati. ...

Never heard this story before. Thanks

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jun 2013 04:35

Thanks to RamaY who told me about a site called Pravachanam.com

It has many discourses on Ramayana, Mahabharatam and Puranas in MP3. So long commute hours are spent listening. I don't read any Western interpretations as they are colored by their upbringing. Its like me talking about Muhammad!

There is place in West Godavari called Undrajavaram. They had a marathon Mahbharatam and Ramayana discourses over 66 days. Hence they could go into minutiae of the epics.

I didnt like some of the speakers who took their listeners for granted. Eg. Aranyaparvam guy had a whole week to talk and took many shortcuts!

BTW Samavedam Shanmukha Sarma is touring the US and giving discources. Contact your local temple.

Also Chaganti Koteshwara Rao has the whole Virata Parvam ~1.2 Gb discourse. '
In my view 1 year of Virata Parvam is worth the same as 12 years of Aranya Parvam and alot of lessons can be learnt.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 05 Jun 2013 05:23

> Samavedam Shanmukha Sarma

I had heard a small piece of his lecture from the internet on a mobile phone once. One my younger cousins was very excited by something called sonic machine or something that can show deva nagari script when Lalita Shasranama was chanted in a particular way etc. and when I said humbug, she insisted I listen to his pravachana. My impression was that he does not have any idea how science is done. May be what they were agog about was some speech recognition software which would map a vocally rendered high fidelity lalitA sahasra nAma into a dEva nAgari Om (or some other letter). A desktop PC endowed with a reasonable amount of RAM and a low-end GPGPU running signal processing algorithms probably will do it - $10K max (that is an overestimate - one can do it in about $5K or less - a GPGPu is about $2K pluds a powerful desktop can be had for $2K). If one wants they can reproduce Aramaic script on the screen when vishNu sahasra nAma is rendered even in apabhramsha or conversely render a figure of a shiva linga when some litergy in latin had been read into the mic.

~~Imagine the possibilities.~~ (Added later) On second thoughts, this could even be dangerous in certain places if used with ill intentions by the wrong people.

That said, I heard good things about pravachana of both sri Chaganti and sri Samavedam and in fact was gifted by one fan of the CDs. Need to find time to listen.

I had a friend with Samavedam family name back when I was in school in W. Godavari who was definitely lot more scientifically bent and wanted to become a doctor. He was very good in Chemistry and had a questioning mind. Lost touch with him after I moved to H'bad.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Jun 2013 09:27

venug wrote:SaiK ji, I don't know anything about it, but Theo ji mentioned it in the Secular thread. So wanted to know what is it about? initial searches on the net led me to some Dravidian theorists who were using Sangam literature to put forth their agenda. So was curious about it. When you don't know anything about it, it is of course difficult to form an opinion.

Per my gnaw-ledge wikipedia is pretty decent to start with. All old sangam literature is lost, and only few was found at temple stores. Mostly, they are poems and hard to understand (not the translated ones

) old archaic tamil, that still makes my head reel.

Some references of pre-sangam period that was lost due to sinking of the southern peninsula. For example unearthing of the temple after the recent tsunami at mahabalipuram/rameshwaram. Most of these texts were kept temple places, and during 11th century (muslim invasion) many of these text further deteriorated.

The CEO of first Sangam lit is Mr. Agastya. I doubt any written form survived let alone spoken.. but, there were some word by mouth. wiki says originated from Thenmadurai, ( I guess then=south, also means honey). south of madurai, could be actually beyond or near present kanyakumari.

Agatyam written by Sage Agastya is cryptic. And if you can dig Sage Agastya from Sanskrit texts, you can get some timelines. But, I could be entirely wrong in saying this as tamil agatyar could be a different entity and vedic sage could be a different person.(if at all it was a person so to speak).. i doubt any of our archaic characters in the form of primitive entities as real as well... it could be a composition, that was made up with 1000s of years of learning.

Tholkapiyam from Tholkapiayar (disciple of Agastya) continued, and made it better. which is more readable and available.

wikipedia is still valid and mostly correct except for the dates.. I would not rely on wiki for dates.
and in my view, even the name tholkapiyar is fictitious imho. I think they attributed these poems to some fictitious name ( actually, in my world of maya, i even feel lord shiva is fictitious representing nature, or scientific discoveries then, from the days of hard to understand basic elements of nature).

thol - archaic
kapiam - text... so think about a sage that gets this name?!?!? fictitious imho. people, just named it and attributed to a person image.. just like lord mahadev.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 05 Jun 2013 09:57

Nilesh Oak wrote:Venug ji,

In the context of some of the issues you have enumerated for discussion,

History of Dharmashastra Vol 1 through 5, by Bharat Ratna & Maha Mahopadhyay P V Kane (Panduragn Vaman Kane)

could provide a good reading. Libraries of any good University would have them. I happen to refer to only one of the 5 volumes, when I was writing MBH War book, in the context of my research on timing of Mahabharata War and specifically various thoughts on 'Kaliyuga'.

Just downloaded it. Great book. I am interested in English versions of original tests on all the 6 darshanas - like Nyaya by Gauthana - Kapila on Sankhya etc. Can any guru help me. I am also searching.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Jun 2013 10:07

http://www.scribd.com/doc/65790090/Tholkappiam

Needs translation

http://www.hindu.com/2009/08/09/stories ... 510600.htm
Hindi version should have been out.

--

Also, imho, the tamil script origins should sync up with most indic script origins - grantham - devanagiri. So, scripts came much later to desh. pathetic!.. hebrew and jews were more innovative to let their knowledge spread better in written forms.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 05 Jun 2013 16:37

Saik garu, thanks, I will read up, at least to know what Sangam literature is about.

Just downloaded it. Great book. I am interested in English versions of original tests on all the 6 darshanas - like Nyaya by Gauthana - Kapila on Sankhya etc. Can any guru help me. I am also searching.

Narayana garu,

The enghlish versions are available on archive.org. But could you please point to to the bolded works?

Vamsi.R · Post by **Vamsi.R** » 05 Jun 2013 16:49

i heard chaganti garu's ramayana.. it is excellent .the amount of information he has given in his discourse is just amazing . just started siva mahapurana of his.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jun 2013 20:53

venug wrote: know what Sangam literature is about...

very basics.. mostly nature elements and cultural aspects as experienced by man kind... in the most archaic poetic and cryptic form.

venu ji, i am unable to dig through this. can you?
http://books.google.com/books/about/Tho ... 1kAAAAMAAJ

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jun 2013 21:15

JohneeG, One pravachanm guru says that in the original Vyasa Bharatam, Mayasabha episode, Draupadi was not there at all when Duryodhana fell into a pool. It was Bhima, Arjuna who laughed. And Dharmaraja made Nakula bring dry clothes.

Draupadi laughing at the sight was a later interpolation by other poets. In Telugu it was added for dramatic effect for stage plays.

If the above is true then the disrobing incident is even more grevious in hindsight.

He also says Karna is an outright bad person who always gave bad advice to Duryodhana and never revealed to him his own constraints (all the curses from multiple origins).

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 06 Jun 2013 22:43

SaiK wrote: --

Also, imho, the tamil script origins should sync up with most indic script origins - grantham - devanagiri. So, scripts came much later to desh. pathetic!.. hebrew and jews were more innovative to let their knowledge spread better in written forms.

how do you make that assertion? there is a script in Indus valley too.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 06 Jun 2013 23:23

Saik garu, no I can't either but found the below link with english translation.
http://sangampoemsinenglish.wordpress.com/book-list/

Thanks SaiK garu, will go through the it. But too bad, can't read Tamil, would have been great in Tamil itself. But may be today's tamil is very from Tamil of yore.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Jun 2013 00:59

here is the man for you
http://www.hindu.com/lf/2004/08/08/stor ... 170200.htm

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 07 Jun 2013 01:04

ramana wrote:JohneeG, One pravachanm guru says that in the original Vyasa Bharatam, Mayasabha episode, Draupadi was not there at all when Duryodhana fell into a pool. It was Bhima, Arjuna who laughed. And Dharmaraja made Nakula bring dry clothes.

Draupadi laughing at the sight was a later interpolation by other poets. In Telugu it was added for dramatic effect for stage plays.

If the above is true then the disrobing incident is even more grevious in hindsight.

He also says Karna is an outright bad person who always gave bad advice to Duryodhana and never revealed to him his own constraints (all the curses from multiple origins).

Ramana Garu,

From my 10+ (times) readings of Mahabhabharata text, (front page to last), I would agree with each point you have mentioned , as narrated by Pravachanam guru

(Draupadi being absent at Duryodhana mayasabha incident) + (character and nature of Karna).

Regarding.. Draupadi Vastraharan (not sure what this pravachanam guru said), however there are some 57 internal references within Mahabharata text (spread all over) that go AGAINST Draupadi VASTRAHARAN. 1 or 2 references refer to VASTRAHARAN and they do appear in those sections of MBH, where good argument can be made for interpolation (One day I might go into it, but not a priority right now).
----------
I am NOT saying that Draupadi was NOT pulled into the court. Indeed, she was brought in there. My point being, Vastraharana as we know (Dushasan doing it and Krishna supplying with unlimited sarees) .. this latter part.. simply did not happen. MBH text present much evidene in support of that.
-----------------------
I will produce one such.

If you read Mahabharata text related to Vastraharan (Sabha Parva).. notice how Draupadi asks the Q to Sabha, then Vidura asks those present to answer her Q...then the magic of vastraharan happens followed by so called Krishna's magic supply of sarees. When this is over, Vidura asks the Sabha again, "Can someone answer her question"....this is without saying even a single word about all the magic that took place in front of everyone! food for thought.
--------------
And when Krishna meets Pandava and Draupadi in the forest (during exile), Draupadi cries with Krishna and asks him.. "how did those Kaurava dare pull her in the Sabha, when she had brother like Krishna?".

Krishna consoles her and tells her that he was out of Dwarka and he came to know of this incident (she being pulled into court and Pandava going to exile) only when he returned to Dwarka. (Note: He does not state, well, I was not there in person. but did I not send sarees with my magic power).

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 07 Jun 2013 01:06

ramana wrote:JohneeG, One pravachanm guru says that in the original Vyasa Bharatam, Mayasabha episode, Draupadi was not there at all when Duryodhana fell into a pool. It was Bhima, Arjuna who laughed. And Dharmaraja made Nakula bring dry clothes.

If I recall correctly, Duryodhana does mention such thing (he spices up) when re-telling the story (while requesting Dhritarashtra....to invite Pandava for game of Dyuta).

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 07 Jun 2013 06:55

venug wrote:Saik garu, no I can't either but found the below link with english translation.
http://sangampoemsinenglish.wordpress.com/book-list/

Thanks SaiK garu, will go through the it. But too bad, can't read Tamil, would have been great in Tamil itself. But may be today's tamil is very from Tamil of yore.

May be, huh? They're practically two different languages. It is possible to talk in either old Tamil or modern Tamil in such a way, that a native speaker of the other language won't understand a single word of what you're saying. That's why you can't count on much help from Tamil speakers to translate or interpret Sangam era texts. And I much suspect that it also proves to be very convenient for the agenda-driven creeps to interpret things their own way.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jun 2013 07:07

Nilesh, There is the bhakti aspect. The Krishna meeting the pandavas in the forest is also interpreted as Dharmaraja did not remember krishan unlike Draupadi and hence he did not intervene.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 08 Jun 2013 10:02

venug wrote:Saik garu, thanks, I will read up, at least to know what Sangam literature is about.

Just downloaded it. Great book. I am interested in English versions of original tests on all the 6 darshanas - like Nyaya by Gauthana - Kapila on Sankhya etc. Can any guru help me. I am also searching.
Narayana garu,

The enghlish versions are available on archive.org. But could you please point to to the bolded works?

What bolded works Sir,???

For anyone interested this site has mp3 talk on various darshanas including Kapila on Sankha - The Guruji also game may other talks on Nyaya etc. you can down load and listen.

http://www.shastranethralaya.org/index.html

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 11 Jun 2013 06:55

Wow, my head has been rolling in this dhaaga.....

I will come to that in a little while. The reason I came here now was to sing glories of a book I laid my hands on. I bought this for personal reasons.

Hindu Techniques of Mental Health
It is written by Dr. Rachana Sharma (daughter of Dr. Ram Nath Sharma an authority on Indian Psychology).

It is an easy & good read, it helps an individual look at our mental health from an Indic perspective. Dr. Rachana, makes some crucial distinction between Western and Indic views of mental health, and also techniques of attaining mental health. In the 21st century, mental health is as important, if not more important, as thousands of years ago.

Dr. Rachana lays the foundation by highlighting how Indian psychology is both philosophical and religious (a characteristic of Indian culture). She highlights H.V.Divatiya's take on Western and Hindu mind. As Per Divatiya Western psychology considers mind as a function of the brain, where as Indian psychology gives mind an independent existence from the brain.

Indian psychologists believed humans to be more than a biological being, they considered humans as cultural being. Hence, humans with the basic animal tendencies could resolve mental conflicts - by modification, reformation and transformation of the mind. Dr. Rachana has a chapter on developing mental techniques, she lists the following:
1. Good samskaras
2. Good company
3. Good practice
4. Renunciation
5. Knowledge
6. Devotion
7. Nishkama karma.

Dr. Rachana dips into Vedas, Gitas, smritis, mantras, yogas, puranas, MB, Ramayana and some modern Hindu thinkers etc to point out the differences and similarities between Western and Hindu views/techniques. She brings out the basic beliefs of Hindus as a platform to spring upon to the basic values of Hindus. I will list them here (you have to read the book for her treatment):
1. Universal Integral Principle
2. Self-Realization
3. Sachchidanda as Value Principle.
4. Means to Supreme Goal - Devotion, Dedication & Service
5. Tapas (penance)
6. Dama (self-restraint)
7. Sraddha (Faith)
8. Dana (Generosity)
9. Abhaya (Fearlessness)

Abhaya as many of us know is crucial for reducing anxiety and stress.

From there she moves to Purusharthas and Varanasharam systems. Then gets into the techniques to tackle the following:
1. Anxiety: Attachment to objects, results of fear, worldly ambition...
2. Fear: Fear is due to ignorance and attachment....Religion & Spiritualism are antidotes to fear. She has a paragraph on Fear of disease, old age and death - on how Western psychology handles it and our Hindu psychology handles those fears.
3. Mental Conflict.
4. Frustration.
5. Inferiority Complex.
6. Aggression.
7. Drunkness
8. Techniques for Personality Integration (good company, study of books to self development, leaving bad company, will (integration of emotions), higher philosophy in life, controlling primitive urges, bhakti

She has a whole chapter on Samskaras and Mental Control; then she ends it with a chapter on Personality and Self. She compares Western and Hindu views.

A good book, bordering on greatness. It is real simple. She packages lots of already known stuff - at least familiar terms that many of us have heard from various sources - family, friends, gurus, BRF and reading. I am leaning towards greatness, because it opened a window in my mind towards solving some personal problems as well as looking at Hindu concepts. Frankly, I had understood the benefit of self-realization, and read about the benefits of meditation and itaydi suggestions, but for the first time she ties several of these into a nice reading experience and there are minor "Ah ha..." moments.

As a youth I had rebelled against rituals in the family, but by mid 20s and 30s - I had come to realize the benefits of those rituals on the mind. I had seen how grandparents who were aging, clinging to rituals that lend some hold to life and provided some value/meaning in otherwise what would be a bleak life. What do people in the 70s, 80s & 90s look forward to?

The book sometimes does get boring because she gets into defining and elaborating some of the stuff that one knows about....but that comes with the territory. One does not have to read some books cover to cover, but glance through and tie the dots and arrive at the big picture. By arriving at the big picture, one understands the role of those smaller dots - which are not inconsequential to begin with.

I am sure some of you gurus will get the gist of the book in a few hours, if you have already not got it from me here

Support her, buy a few copies. I got it from Amazon marketplace.

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 11 Jun 2013 08:57

Something just occurred to me, WRT this Karna-suta-oppressed-low-caste-whatever argument by the AITers. If this is something well-known to Maharathis here (I've never seen what I'm about to say expressed here in BRF), then pliss to excuse this nanha-mujahid, who is at the moment pretty excited that he, too, occasionally gets to have (mini)-epiphanies on the Mahabharata.

Sutas were charioteers by profession, right? Supposedly, per the AITers, this is a low-caste occupation, which is why the kshatriyas of the era kept putting Karna down. The counters to this argument are there - as pointed out by Ramana saab, Virata, king of Matsya, was also of suta origin. And as pointed out by yours truly, Karna himself became king of Anga, a post which was never contested by anybody on the grounds that a suta could not be king.

What just occurred to me, was that Sri Krishna himself glorified, even immortalized the suta profession by becoming Arjuna's charioteer. Low-caste occupation, indeed. Then Shalya, a mighty warrior himself, became the charioteer for........Karna, of all people.

That's it. Mini epiphany over. Just another datapoint to throw at the AITers. Enjoy.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 11 Jun 2013 10:19

The above is really good. Lot of counter examples to a question like would ~~bhishma~~ Parashurama have accepted Karna as a student had he told ~~bhishma~~ Parashurama that he is a sura putra. You sir have given a reason as to why the answer would have been a resounding yes.

(Pratyush ji, thanks for the correction).

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Jun 2013 16:00

^^^

Err it is Parsuram and not Bhishm.

The interesting point is that Parsuram has sworned that he will not be a teacher to Khsitryias.

So not being a Kshatriya there was no need for Karna to hide his Varna. But he did, why? Why was he afraid , that Guru Parsuram will turn him away, for being a suta putra?

Also, guru Durana, when he turned away Karna, dod so because the school was set up only for prences and not for commoners.

Did Giru Drona, send Karna away for being a Suta Putra as well??

sampat · Post by **sampat** » 11 Jun 2013 16:40

SwamyG wrote:Wow, my head has been rolling in this dhaaga..... I will come to that in a little while. The reason I came here now was to sing glories of a book I lay hands on. I bought this for personal reasons.

Hindu Techniques of Mental Health
It is written by Dr. Rachana Sharma (daughter of Dr. Ram Nath Sharma an authority on Indian Psychology).

Where did you buy this book from?

There is another book on Hindu Psychology:

Mental Health and Hindu Psychology, Swami Akhilananda

http://archive.org/details/mentalhealthandh032410mbp

http://www.srimatham.com/uploads/5/5/4/ ... _psych.pdf

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 11 Jun 2013 18:56

Narayana Rao garu, thank you, I thought there is a translation in english, too bad, I am still a slave of english education system, not good enough to read the actual works, but mp3s are fine.

Sudharshan ji, that indeed is neat, very nice. Thanks.

In case of Guru Drona, Arjuna was his favorite, so may be it was this affection and to ensure that Arjuna alone gets his undivided attention that he didn't accept them (Karna and Ekalayva) as his disciples? them being from lower jaati could be just a facade.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jun 2013 20:41

Sudarshan, It was Queen Sudeshna who was from suta class. Her grandson Parikhsit becomes the successor to the Pandavas. So the claim that sutas were looked down is wrong.

BTW they were charioteers, bards, envoys to the kings. All trusted advisors or roles. The warrior is nothing without his charioteer.

Karna is a complex person. He has too many pisko demons for people to hang their hat on.

Even after Uttara marriage to Abhimnayu where suta born Princess is accpeted, he rejects Krishna's offer to reinstate him as a kshatriya by claiing that he has married into the suta class people and would be denying them their acceptance of him if he reveals his kshatriya origins.

He is driven with only one ambition to defeat and kill Arjuna. He starts with the first purpose at the tournament of Princes. He repeatedly confornts arjuna and gets defeated and in end gets killed.

Karna has so much hatred he breaks the dharma by cutting the bow string of Abhimanyu from a side shot. He is the one who suggests disrobing Draupadi. Every bad deed of Duryodhana has Karna or Dushyasana link.

Shakuni only enables the bad deeeds.

So for folks to defend this adharmic person is crazy.

Again I suggest read the actual rendering of Vyasa Bharatam and not the poetic imaginations in the regional languages.