Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 May 2013 22:36

Austin wrote:The Arjun Saga

http://www.geopolitics.in/june2012.aspx

Thanks for sharing Austin, an excellent article, very perceptive and very balanced. It does well to refer to the extremist positions and discuss their presence and resulting fruitless recriminations.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 May 2013 02:03

Absolutely lifafa article.. poorly researched, biased, ill-balanced, with pathetic writing structure. Furthermore the author does exactly reverse of the preamble he starts with:

"Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy inspires intelligence" - Robert J Hanlon

it is worthless article.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 May 2013 02:51

^^^
I dont think people critizing the article have either read the article or have read the author's introduction. It appears to be a standard knee jerk reaction now entrenched on the forum.

Most unfortunate.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 20 May 2013 09:46

Sanku wrote:^^^
I dont think people critizing the article have either read the article or have read the author's introduction. It appears to be a standard knee jerk reaction now entrenched on the forum.

Most unfortunate.

its no different than the article which said that the torsion bar in Arjun tank broke during tests. As i said earlier in my post this article still parrots the falsified information that the cost of t-90 is only 16 crores.
The article keeps on pointing that Arjun still needs a lot of fixes, may be the author wantedly forgot that when t-90 needed fixes it was the same organization that made Arjun come up with fixes for t-90.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 May 2013 20:58

^^^ouch!

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 22 May 2013 06:42

Hello friends. I have been lurking for so many years. This is my favorite topic. One hotly debated topic

Arjun Tank Mk II Containerised Ammunition Bin and Blow Off Panel approved

Read more: http://frontierindia.net/arjun-tank-mk- ... l-approved

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 May 2013 14:15

Turkish MBT Altay Video on Mobility and Firing tests

http://youtu.be/mp884ZF4tCs

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 22 May 2013 21:44

http://frontierindia.net/arjun-tank-mk-ii-containerised-ammunition-bin-and-blow-off-panel-approved#axzz2U2TT9S6S

A Containerised Ammunition Bin with Individual Shutters (CABIS) and Blow Off Panel (BOP) has been developed for the Arjun Tank Mk II, a DRDO project for the Indian Army. The ammunition compartment for the Arjun Tank Mk 1 is enclosed on all sides except the front for retrieving of ammunition by the loader. In case of ammunition burning in the ready round bin compartment, the crew’s life was at risk. DRDO scientists have now isolated the round bin with CABIS.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 May 2013 09:32

Main Battle Tanks ( MOD Press )

The Government has assessed the requirement of Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) that would be required for defence preparedness.The requirement for Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) for defence preparedness has been assessed and laid down in the Long Term Integrated Perspective Plan (LTIPP) document for the period 2012- 2027. Disclosure of further information on the subject is not in the national interest.

The Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) ARJUN Mark I have been manufactured indigenously and ARJUN Mark II is under development. The T-90 tanks are manufactured indigenously by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) under licensed production from Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM). The Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) is under indigenous design and development.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri C. Rajendranin Lok Sabha today.

HS/HH/RK
(Release ID :95278)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 May 2013 09:34

Infantry Combat Vehicles ( MOD Press ) 06-May, 2013

Based on operational requirement, the entire Infantry Combat Vehicle (ICV) fleet of the Indian Army is being modernized to enhance their capability.

In the ICV fleet, armament and firepower capability are being upgraded with the latest generation Fire Control System, Twin Missile Launchers and Commander's Thermal Imaging Panoramic sights. These ICVs will also be equipped with the latest generation Anti Tank Guided Missiles and Automatic Grenade Launchers.

The ICV proposal for the Armament upgrade of BMP-2/2K to BMP-2M and New Power Pack for BMP-2/2K will cost an estimated Rs. 8000 crore.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Dr. Sanjeev Ganesh Naik and Shri Sanjay Dina Patil in Lok Sabha today.

DM/HH/RK
(Release ID :95625)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 May 2013 09:47

Rs 8K-crore plan for upgrading ICVs of Army
By N C Bipindra - NEW DELHI

17th May 2013 09:58 AM

Indian Army is all set to upgrade the capability of its 1,900-odd infantry combat vehicles (ICVs) to enable its troopers to thrust into enemy territory without coming under hostile fire. The upgrade is estimated to cost `8,000 crore.

According to Army officers, the entire fleet of the Russian-origin ICVs, also called as BMPs, would be modernised under the programme. “In the ICV fleet, the vehicle’s armament and firepower capability are being upgraded with the latest generation of fire control system, twin missile launchers and commander’s thermal imaging panoramic sights,” the officers said.“These ICVs will also be equipped with the latest generation anti-tank guided missile and automatic grenade launchers,” they added. The proposal is to upgrade the armament of the BMP-2 and BMP-2K fleet to BMP-2M capabilities and provide new power pack for the entire fleet. The new power pack with 380 horsepower capability would enhance the ICVs’ cross-country mobility, floatation and gradient negotiating capability, apart from mounting more lethal weapon systems on board.

“All of this will make the ICVs robust killer machines,” the officers said. The BMP-2 and BMP-2K, which run on Russian-origin UTD-20 engines, are the main ICVs of the Army’s Mechanised Infantry regiments. The ICVs are used for breaching enemy defences and for troopers to gain entry into enemy territory with protection.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 May 2013 09:53

Pictures of Algerian BMP-2 upgraded to 2M standards , 300 BMP-2M upgraded to this standard.

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bmpd/380 ... iginal.jpg

vic · Post by **vic** » 23 May 2013 12:53

Costly Upgrades are pretext for single vendor deals

nits · Post by **nits** » 23 May 2013 15:06

Arjun MK-II Gearing up for final trials

Arjun MK-II is all set and gearing up for its final Summer Trials which are to be held by end of next month or in early July before it hits productions. Indian army has asked for 93 improvements to the Arjun Mark II tank including 19 major modifications.

All the modifications suggested by the army had been successfully incorporated in the tank and will be ready for final trials by Indian army after which DRDO will seek clearance for production to start. Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) Avadi will need 30 months (Two and a half years) to deliver first batch of Arjun MK-2 to Indian army, DRDO is also hoping for fresh orders of Arjun MK-II from its current 126 placed by Indian army some time back.

MK-2 will see increase in weight from 62 tonne to 67 tonne. The suspension has been re-designed to handle up to 70 tonne weight. Wheels are bigger in dimensions and have improved track length, MK-2 will be powered by the same MTU engine imported from Germany but it has been improved to carry extra weight of the tank but the top speed of the tank will be limited to 58kmph coming down from 72kmph seen on MK-1 Arjun. DRDO is working on indigenous powerhouse for future tanks but Integrations with Arjun can only happen if Army places order for 3 more Regiments of Arjun MKII (350). Otherwise it will only serve in next generation battle tank which Drdo is developing under Futuristic Main Battle Tank (FMBT) Program for Indian Army post 2020.

MK-2 will have improvements like missile firing capability, improved commander’s panoramic sight with night vision, Hunter killer capability, improved Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) , improved communication equipments along with better navigation aid , full frontal Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA), Mine plough , improved gun barrel , additional ammunition types.

In Previous trials MK2 did not face any issues and Army was satisfied with its performance, DRDO has now completed all the improvements asked by Indian army on MK-2 variant and hopes Army will be satisfied after final rounds of trials and clears production of it along with fresh orders.

Even after reduction in speed its more or less similar to T-90 Speed; The Т-90S with 1,000 hp (750 kW) engine can attain a top speed of 60 km/h on the road and up to 45 km/h on rough terra

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 May 2013 19:54

But what about the weight of the tank. Now itcannot betransported at all. It will have to bestored in the Avadi parking lot onlee. What to do onlee, shivering in my dhoti onlee.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 May 2013 19:58

hopefully it can go in the same flatbed raicars and semi trucks used to move current Arjun.
all we need is a new stick to beat the dead horse with at this stage...

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 23 May 2013 20:30

additional ammunition types? What else can be other than Lahat?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 May 2013 20:33

Singha wrote:hopefully it can go in the same flatbed raicars and semi trucks used to move current Arjun.
all we need is a new stick to beat the dead horse with at this stage...

Ouch, very good point. I really hope Mk II has no extra logistical footprint requirements over I. That would be disaster.

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 23 May 2013 20:48

It will have extra logistics. This -------missile firing capability, improved commander’s panoramic sight with night vision, Hunter killer capability, improved Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) , improved communication equipments along with better navigation aid , full frontal Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA), Mine plough , improved gun barrel , additional ammunition types means extra logistics.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 23 May 2013 20:58

jamwal wrote:http://frontierindia.net/arjun-tank-mk-ii-containerised-ammunition-bin-and-blow-off-panel-approved#axzz2U2TT9S6S

Very good news. I wonder if they will perform destructive testing of the blow-off panel in a real Arjun tank (after the standalone tests) to test the efficacy

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 24 May 2013 03:04

Wonder when will we see another order for 250 Arjun II.

Without 1000 Arjuns in various incarnations, it will not be feasible to sustain this program. Also hoping, the power-pack is indigenized to improve availability and costs.

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 24 May 2013 08:10

Our tank making now seems to mirror the missile making capability. After long maturity period, India is able to integrate systems in Arjun tank at will and field them in record time. T-72 chassis and Arjun turret is so doable. It is up to Army if it wants to use them or not. The combo seems to be so powerful at 50 tons or less.

FMBT is expected to be some future variant of Tank - Ex, where even the chassis will be ours.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 30 May 2013 06:52

From DefenseNews: India Reissues Tender for 100 Armored Personnel Carriers

NEW DELHI — The Indian Defence Ministry has reissued a tender to buy 100 armored personnel carriers (APCs), slightly easing the requirements from 2009’s failed tender.

A Defence Ministry source said the qualitative requirements laid out in 2009 were “tough,” and sought to mix the best systems available on the market. The vendor also was reequired to make a special prototype of the APC to compete. None of the vendors could meet the qualitative requirements for the APCs in the earlier tender.

The requirements have been diluted slightly relating to the mobility of the vehicles, and the tender has again been issued to the same vendors involved in 2009: General Dynamics in the US, Rosoboronexport of Russia, Ukrainexport of Ukraine, Poland’s Bumar, Finmeccanica of Italy, BAE Systems of the UK and Krauss-Maffei Wegmann of Germany.

An Indian Army official said the vehicle procurement process is slow and the allocated budget has been nearly stagnant for the last three years.

The budget allocation for military vehicles for 2013-14 is only 20.8 billion rupees (US $377 million), compared with 22.6 billion rupees in 2012-13 and an actual spend of 23.5 billion rupees in 2011-’12.

To meet its APC requirements, the Army is using about 2,000 Russian BMP-1 and BMP-2 multipurpose armored vehicles, equipped with anti-tank missiles and other weapons.

Along with the purchase of 100 APCs, the global tender includes buying 60,668 armor piercing rounds, 91,004 high-explosive rounds for the 25-40mm cannon, 886,436 rounds of the 7.62 coaxial machine gun and 84,100 rounds for the 25mm-40mm anti-grenade launcher.

The requirements stipulate that the wheeled APCs be able to fire on the move, have good speed on the road and cross country, and have the ability to protect against mines, improvised explosive devices, small arms, grenades and artillery splinters.

The vehicle must be able to be armed with a machine gun, cannon and automatic grenade launcher.

In addition, the vehicle must have modern, secure communications, amphibious capability and the ability to cross obstacles.

The Army wants the cannon to be able to fire at targets, including helicopters, at a distance of 2,500 meters.

This month, India tapped a consortium of two domestic companies to supply the Army with 100 Tatra trucks, breaking a monopoly held by a Czech Republic-based firm.

Domestic companies Ashok Leyland and Larsen & Toubro formed the winning consortium, which beat another consortium composed of Tata Motors and Tata Power SED.

The bid by Czech firm Tatra Czech, filed jointly with state-owned Bharat Earth Movers, failed at the trial stage.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 30 May 2013 09:37

what is this "anti-grenade launcher"

How can Army reduce its requirement just to induct a foregin system while the same cannot be done for a DRDO system?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 30 May 2013 09:43

is that for a APC or a tank ??

srin · Post by **srin** » 30 May 2013 19:26

krishnan wrote:is that for a APC or a tank ??

Sounds like an IFV, but that can't be right - we wanted to make it locally.

vic · Post by **vic** » 30 May 2013 22:32

First kill Abhay, then kill FICV thereafter float requirements of import and single vendor upgradation. Hail Import lobby!

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 30 May 2013 22:45

Of what use will be the 100 APC? Is the Army planning to defend Singapore or for showing off in Republic day parades.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 31 May 2013 00:27

Dunno if related..

http://www.shrilakshmidefence.com/About ... ships.html

Ukrinmash, Ukraine.
Shri Lakshmi Defence Solutions Ltd (SLDSL) has signed a MOU with Ukrinmash, Ukraine, for supply of 100 number of APC BTR –IV, to the Indian Army, for deployment in UN Peace Keeping Operations. Copy of MOU is attached.

MOU between Shri Lakshmi Defence Solutions Ltd (SLDSL) & Ukrinmash

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 31 May 2013 01:37

VinodTK wrote:From DefenseNews: India Reissues Tender for 100 Armored Personnel Carriers

NEW DELHI — The Indian Defence Ministry has reissued a tender to buy 100 armored personnel carriers (APCs), slightly easing the requirements from 2009’s failed tender.

A Defence Ministry source said the qualitative requirements laid out in 2009 were “tough,” and sought to mix the best systems available on the market. The vendor also was reequired to make a special prototype of the APC to compete. None of the vendors could meet the qualitative requirements for the APCs in the earlier tender.

The requirements have been diluted slightly relating to the mobility of the vehicles, and the tender has again been issued to the same vendors involved in 2009: General Dynamics in the US, Rosoboronexport of Russia, Ukrainexport of Ukraine, Poland’s Bumar, Finmeccanica of Italy, BAE Systems of the UK and Krauss-Maffei Wegmann of Germany.

An Indian Army official said the vehicle procurement process is slow and the allocated budget has been nearly stagnant for the last three years.

The budget allocation for military vehicles for 2013-14 is only 20.8 billion rupees (US $377 million), compared with 22.6 billion rupees in 2012-13 and an actual spend of 23.5 billion rupees in 2011-’12.

To meet its APC requirements, the Army is using about 2,000 Russian BMP-1 and BMP-2 multipurpose armored vehicles, equipped with anti-tank missiles and other weapons.

Along with the purchase of 100 APCs, the global tender includes buying 60,668 armor piercing rounds, 91,004 high-explosive rounds for the 25-40mm cannon, 886,436 rounds of the 7.62 coaxial machine gun and 84,100 rounds for the 25mm-40mm anti-grenade launcher.

The requirements stipulate that the wheeled APCs be able to fire on the move, have good speed on the road and cross country, and have the ability to protect against mines, improvised explosive devices, small arms, grenades and artillery splinters.

The vehicle must be able to be armed with a machine gun, cannon and automatic grenade launcher.

In addition, the vehicle must have modern, secure communications, amphibious capability and the ability to cross obstacles.

The Army wants the cannon to be able to fire at targets, including helicopters, at a distance of 2,500 meters.

This month, India tapped a consortium of two domestic companies to supply the Army with 100 Tatra trucks, breaking a monopoly held by a Czech Republic-based firm.

Domestic companies Ashok Leyland and Larsen & Toubro formed the winning consortium, which beat another consortium composed of Tata Motors and Tata Power SED.

The bid by Czech firm Tatra Czech, filed jointly with state-owned Bharat Earth Movers, failed at the trial stage.

I believe that APC/IFV's are listed in items that were only supposed to be brought from desi manufacturers?? What happened and what prompted a sudden change????

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jun 2013 07:15

The papers today report of a kickback deal involving a DRDO scientist the supply of components for the Arjun tank,"road wheels and wraps",allegedly involving a DRDO scientist ,"Dr.Solomon",and the GM of the Ordnance factory Medak,one "Panda". The moll,one Subi Mally,was allegedly assured by panda that for 3 lakhs,he would help in the formation of the cartel,where Thrissur and Mysore based cos. would win the tender.This is not the first time that the Ordnance Factories have been involved in serious scams and just goes to show,whether indigenous or firang procurement,kickbacks do take place!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jun 2013 07:17

the global tender includes buying 60,668 armor piercing rounds, 91,004 high-explosive rounds for the 25-40mm cannon, 886,436 rounds of the 7.62 coaxial machine gun and 84,100 rounds for the 25mm-40mm anti-grenade launcher.

pathetic that we dont even try to make these locally on our own.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jun 2013 08:05

Singha,,I agree absolutely.I can't understand how we cannot make after 60+ years of Independence simple items like rifles,ammo,etc.,despite having so many ordnance factories and grand pavilions of them at defence shows.Forget the high-tech items like aircraft,tanks,etc.If we can produce at least 75% of our ammo/ordnance requirements,it will be a massive leap forward and forex saved.One report said that only 29% of all our defence acquisitions was desi.A truly pathetic state of affairs.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 07 Jun 2013 09:10

Singha wrote:the global tender includes buying 60,668 armor piercing rounds, 91,004 high-explosive rounds for the 25-40mm cannon, 886,436 rounds of the 7.62 coaxial machine gun and 84,100 rounds for the 25mm-40mm anti-grenade launcher.

pathetic that we dont even try to make these locally on our own.

Disband OFB and let private players come in. Problem solved. Ram, we can't even make 7.62X51 rounds. Pathetic.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 07 Jun 2013 09:19

Its part of the import, you cannot just import APC and use Indian ammunition

later army will request the items to be "indiginzed". Please reserve your choicest words for Ordanance factories then

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 07 Jun 2013 09:26

7.62 mm PKT coaxial machine gun is made in OFB.

What is an anti- grenade launcher?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jun 2013 10:03

>> Its part of the import, you cannot just import APC and use Indian ammunition

er why not if we have the internal capacity?...these are std calibers and common weapons.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 07 Jun 2013 10:41

The more important question is what is so unique about this APC and the jobs that it is ment to to. That cant be done by the BMP2.

Moreover, once an imported mal comes in. It will be used to kill the nascent FICV program. By having a follow on order.

Disgusting all round.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 07 Jun 2013 12:46

OFB is kind of "low tech org" that they need to learn how to make these things. So once the import is done, they have to make "exact" copies without any know how. And you know where that will end up

vic · Post by **vic** » 07 Jun 2013 23:46

I think recently India imported almost Rs. 1000 crore worth of ammo for 30mm AGL-Automatic Grenade launcher. Am sure lot of Swiss accounts benefitted.