Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

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shaardula
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by shaardula »

doode have some decency, if not honour. there is life beyond electoral politics. that guy gave his life to protect those who sought his help. fuking congress goons in dilli didn't do half of what that guy did.

maybe he was foolhardy, maybe he was not cautious enough, we dont know. fact of the matter, when he was put on duty, he stood and fought a battle of not his choosing, and gave his own life in the process of saving other lives. GJ administration could be tees maar khan and all that, they might have brought heaven on earth, but that lingayat or even the pakhtunwali pride in upholding the dharma they will never have.

you have problems with me, take it out somewhere else.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by SwamyG »

Sanku wrote: Oh please Periyar was like that only from day 1, and so were the rest, blaming age is just not looking at the fact straight.
Nope, he was a die Congress wallah, and supporter of MKG. The Kerala incident turned him sour. My point is about sulking and not age.
Last edited by SwamyG on 10 Jun 2013 07:53, edited 1 time in total.
abhishek_sharma
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by abhishek_sharma »

>> you have problems with me, take it out somewhere else.

No, you are not that important.

Decency? Honor? Maybe you should learn to read properly. I didn't say anything about the guy who gave his life. I was merely implying that US police organization is not as fair as you were suggesting.

>> in upholding the dharma they will never have.

How can they have dharma unless you give them a certificate? God knows how many court cases have failed to prove anything against him. Care to explain why he fails your platinum benchmark?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by muraliravi »

Sushupti wrote:where did he pull that number from?.
Modi's elevation will help UPA: Moily

There is no internal democracy in Gujarat and there are nearly 30 crore minority citizens in the country who do not favour Modi as a leader,” he said.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/337 ... moily.html
dont expect good math from a zero loss theory party.
SwamyG
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by SwamyG »

Shaardula: What do you think Modi could have done differently in 2002? It is established that he did not instigate the riots, nor looked the other way. He requested help, and brought in control as much as the situation allowed.
Last edited by SwamyG on 10 Jun 2013 10:11, edited 1 time in total.
abhishek_sharma
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by abhishek_sharma »

^^ What do you mean by that? Did people die in Gujarat in 2002? Yes. It follows that police did not do its duty.

Do people die in US due to different crimes? Yes. Does it follow that their administration is biased/prejudiced? Why ask such questions? Do you have honor and decency?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by SwamyG »

Abhishek, is that question to me?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by shaardula »

ok abhiskek

edited post.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by sudarshan »

shaardula wrote: #8. my only problem with modi is back in '02 he didnot have the dharma or viveka of shielding his subjects from tyranny. he could not give protection to the most vulnerable of his citizens. otherwise from what he says, and has done since, he's like miles ahead of any others.
Just curious. What should Modi have done? Personally come out on the streets and literally put his life on line? I thought it was known that he did what needed to be done (got the police out on the streets, requested assistance from neighboring states and the centre). Or is this the same accusation of the "three-day delay" between the 28th of Feb. and the 1st of March?

The courts have established that he did his duty. You summarily dismiss that saying - "we all know how good the courts are." OK, so Mr. Modi is presumed guilty until proven innocent? If not, what is the proof of Modi's guilt? Your word? The Congress' word? The media's word? The word of the governments of the UK and USA, which have been denying a visa to Modi (not that he cares) based on this same accusation?

What, exactly, is the proof of Modi's guilt? And whatever that proof is, that is accepted as upholding higher standards of truth than the Indian courts? Why? Simply because "we all know the courts are bad, therefore if they say Modi is innocent, that means Modi is really guilty?"
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by abhishek_sharma »

SwamyG wrote:Abhishek, is that question to me?
No, it was sarcasm onlee. :D
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Arjun »

Muppalla wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Arjun ji,

It has been a good thread. Perhaps it is time to close this thread and start a new one, either at 197 or 200 pages!

After it all it is a new start!
A new start is when Modi is PM and let us keep this thread to even 300 pages until that happens. We can revisit this closure in 2014 :)
I agree with Muppalla ji...unless you can get permission from admins for the new Modi thread to be started in Strat forum.
shaardula
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by shaardula »

swamy. practical thing is the perception has stuck that he did not do enough. legality says he did ok. legality also says congress had nothing to with massacres of lajpath nagar. the wails of grown men, smell of burnt hair , burnt flesh, you cant out grow these. riots dont happen like in movies. they are not that adhoc. there are columns.

its very very difficult to bludgeon 1 person. do you realize how much anger and berehmi is involved in thulping even 1 person? do you realize the scale of organization and effort that is required in a violence against thousands of people. muslims and hindu. that columns of hindus and muslims marched through his state and slaughtered one another and all he can do say courts say i did all i can do is unacceptable. especially given his past bluster about chappan ki chaati or whatever that nonsense was. he was blustering about naxals today. apparently mms has not done enough. what did he do?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Arjun »

shaardula wrote:apparently mms has not done enough. what did he do?
That's quite a moronic equivalence you are trying to draw, Shaardula.

Modi had something like 3 days to set things right after an extremely grave provacatory massacre. MMS had 10 years to mull over things and get to action. Where do you see any kind of equivalence whatsoever ??
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by shaardula »

sudarshan, what i say does not matter. atleast 1 whole year, nm will have to answer these questions. you know in all this, the guys who were burnt down in that train, nobody talks about. i canno tell the name orthe story of even one of the train victims, hopefully you can. when we have ended up creating stories graver than those in that train, we must sit back and think, wtf where we thinking?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Yes, riots are not ad-hoc. Unfortunately rioters don't e-mail their plans to the govt. So the govt is not aware of what they are up to.

Yes, there were thousands of people on the streets. That is precisely why the govt is somewhat powerless to stop them. The number of policemen is significantly less than the number of people on the street.

>> and all he can do say courts say i did all i can do is unacceptable.

It is unacceptable? Why so? Should he have asked the IAF to carpet bomb a few cities? That would have stopped the riots.

Basically, you are not able to understand that any govt (in a country like ours) cannot stop a determined crowd (in more than one locations) in a matter of a few hours. We can stop a riot in a few days, and Modi did that.
Last edited by abhishek_sharma on 10 Jun 2013 08:47, edited 1 time in total.
sudarshan
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by sudarshan »

Just give up the argument, I guess, and pray to God that none of us are ever held to Shaardula's standards in our professional careers, where a single misstep (Did I say misstep? More like uncompromising accusation of failure when a black-swan event is not tamed instantly) earns eternal condemnation. I don't see what that dead policeman did in the Sikh massacre in the USA, either. He just died on the job without stopping the killing of those innocent people, and all that anybody can say in his defense, is that "he did all he could - he even gave his life." What kind of excuse is that? His job was to stop those deaths, not get killed himself.

What kind of excuse is it, to claim that relief was dispatched instantly after an earthquake or a cyclone? You should have stopped it in time. Do you know what it's like to be in a building that's rocking like crazy, when the roof caves in, when the wind reaches 160 kmph? When you can document the story of even one victim of an earthquake or a volcanic event, then you will realize that a simple statement that "you did everything you could after the event" is simply unacceptable. That's the logic on display here.

But never mind. There are still holocaust deniers and 911-Jewish-conspiracy and 1971-great-Paki-victory people in this world, so what's one more "Modi is incompetent because he couldn't ensure that nobody - absolutely nobody - died in an unexpected riot in his state" dude?
Last edited by sudarshan on 10 Jun 2013 08:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Sanku »

shaardula wrote:sudarshan, what i say does not matter. atleast 1 whole year, nm will have to answer these questions.
Well, we can only control ourselves and speak for ourselves at the end of the day, isnt it?

Let us say what we believe in and what is right.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by shaardula »

Arjun wrote:
shaardula wrote:apparently mms has not done enough. what did he do?
That's quite a moronic equivalence you are trying to draw, Shaardula.

Modi had something like 3 days to set things right after an extremely grave provacatory massacre. MMS had 10 years to mull over things and get to action. Where do you see any kind of equivalence whatsoever ??
ok arjun. but then, everyone and his chacha, including me and my chacha, knows that any place where naxalism has even had to retreat even an inch it is because of a clearheaded sense of purpose by the state governments and the respective forces that the states wielded.

please dont piss on the sacrifices that sundry cadre drawn from state police have made.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Pranav »

Muppalla wrote:Yashwant Sinha is spinning and spinning like anything.
He is right that the Media played a role. However, the intention of the paid Media was to damage NaMo's chances by playing up Advani's comparison between NaMo and Shivraj. It boomeranged.

The other factor was the bye-election outcomes of Modi and Nitish.

All circumstances were in alignment for Modi supporters to make the push.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by abhijitm »

shaardula wrote: that columns of hindus and muslims marched through his state and slaughtered one another and all he can do say courts say i did all i can do is unacceptable.
In any indian state if a riot starts then it is like a wildfire. There is absolutely not enough police force, state or central, to control the spread. Best solution is to prevent it from happening. I am a first hand witness of 1992 mumbai riots. Nobody blamed Congress CM for 'not doing enough to stop'. Why single out Modi? If we want to set the trend of making the head of state responsible for every riot then many congress leaders should be axed.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by shaardula »

Sanku wrote:
shaardula wrote:sudarshan, what i say does not matter. atleast 1 whole year, nm will have to answer these questions.
Well, we can only control ourselves and speak for ourselves at the end of the day, isnt it?

Let us say what we believe in and what is right.
what we believe in, is what we believe in, i can understand, to say what we believe in is only "right" is a bit of a stretch, isn't it?i mean c'mon sanku-ji. i know modi today said, to make the policies you want, you have to do what it takes to be in a position to make those decisions, but still ...
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Arjun »

shaardula wrote:
Arjun wrote:Modi had something like 3 days to set things right after an extremely grave provacatory massacre. MMS had 10 years to mull over things and get to action. Where do you see any kind of equivalence whatsoever ??
<snip>
please dont piss on the sacrifices that sundry cadre drawn from state police have made.
Shaardula ji, I've merely pointed out that the equivalence you've drawn is completely wrong, and from there you derive that I 'piss on the sacrifices that sundry cadre drawn from state police have made' !!

Lets have some minimum standards of logic adhered to on this thread, please.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Hari Seldon »

Who is responsible for farmer suicides in states then I wonder?

The only way one can be innocent in Indian polity today is to run away from any position of responsibility and accountability. Pretty much like the nehru-gandhis have successfully done.

IN any case, no one is delusional enough here (IMO, of course) to consider sri namo as 'perfect'. I certainly wouldn't burden him with papal infallibility expectations. He;s the best by a mile among the lot on offer, is all we know now.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by shaardula »

abhijitm wrote:
shaardula wrote: that columns of hindus and muslims marched through his state and slaughtered one another and all he can do say courts say i did all i can do is unacceptable.
In any indian state if a riot starts then it is like a wildfire. There is absolutely not enough police force, state or central, to control the spread. Best solution is to prevent it from happening. I am a first hand witness of 1992 mumbai riots. Nobody blamed Congress CM for 'not doing enough to stop'. Why single out Modi? If we want to set the trend of making the head of state responsible for every riot then many congress leaders should be axed.
abhijit, it might be smaller in number, but the state power is supreme to any other power in the country. our guys dont have uniforms and weapons of the west and all, but that much is there. even with what limited resources they have, they are competent enough to figure out who is doing what in their neighborhood.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by shaardula »

btw, how many of the chaatiphaads here rushed out to the streets with machetes in their hands and blood on their minds, instead of their keyboards, when they heard of the massacre in the train?
Last edited by shaardula on 10 Jun 2013 09:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Gus »

10 plus yrs of UPA witch hunting with all its might including NGO proxies have proved nothing. Nothing else is needed for me.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Arjun »

shaardula wrote:btw, how many of the chaatiphaads here rushed out to the streets with machetes in their hands and blood on their minds, instead of their keyboards, when they heard of the massacre in the train?
what's your point shaardula ?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by sudarshan »

It's a trick question. If you rushed out to the streets with a machete and blood on your mind, you are a communal rioting freak. If you didn't, then you didn't do anything during the riots, so you have no right to talk.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by abhijitm »

shaardula wrote: abhijit, it might be smaller in number, but the state power is supreme to any other power in the country. our guys dont have uniforms and weapons of the west and all, but that much is there. even with what limited resources they have, they are competent enough to figure out who is doing what in their neighborhood.
I agree. They can figure out but my question is, is there enough capacity to control the riots at the ground level? even the 'leaders' who start this cannot control it immediately. Riots start with a spark, spread rapidly and die slowly. Many crooks, goons take advantage of the situation. It becomes extremely difficult for a poorly equipped, under capacity police force to handle the situation at the ground level. A CM does not hold a magic wand. Therefore preventing it is the best option.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Arjun »

This idea of Modi to build a 'State of Unity' of Sardar Patel seems like a political winner...it seems that the steel and other working on it will be drawn from each and every village of India - symbolizing the underlying unity of the country.

The concept will resonate well with the masses - and also positions Modi imperceptibly as a successor to the original 'Loh Purush' in unifying the nation.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by abhijitm »

Hari Seldon wrote:Who is responsible for farmer suicides in states then I wonder?
government, of course. But it is more like a strategic failure. Unable to control riot is a tactical failure. Unable to prevent a riot is a strategic failure.
IN any case, no one is delusional enough here (IMO, of course) to consider sri namo as 'perfect'. I certainly wouldn't burden him with papal infallibility expectations. He;s the best by a mile among the lot on offer, is all we know now.
totally agree. 100%.
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Post by shaardula »

and arjun, from my point, logic is, where there is a clear sense of purpose, even with limited resources, a lot can be achieved and even within the constitutional constraints.

think about it, how much time does it take even ina ghettoized community like those in india, to kill 1000s of people. you go to a house, breach the main door, fight the resisting man behind the door, about 20-30 minutes, minimum atleast, i would guess for a family of four? even with a flash massacre 10, 100 murders is understandable, 1000s is beyond comprehension, atleast to my mind.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Sanku »

shaardula wrote: what we believe in, is what we believe in, i can understand, to say what we believe in is only "right" is a bit of a stretch, isn't it?i mean c'mon sanku-ji. i know modi today said, to make the policies you want, you have to do what it takes to be in a position to make those decisions, but still ...
Shaardula-ji; it not that what we believe in is right, it is that we should try and believe in the right, and speak what we believe the right thing is.

You have to take a position basically, what others will do, they will do, the only question of interest is. what will you do?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by abhijitm »

shaardula wrote: think about it, how much time does it take even ina ghettoized community like those in india, to kill 1000s of people. you go to a house, breach the main door, fight the resisting man behind the door, about 20-30 minutes, minimum atleast, i would guess for a family of four? even with a flash massacre 10, 100 murders is understandable, 1000s is beyond comprehension, atleast to my mind.
92 mumbai riots killed almost a thousand. Nobody asked this question then. And remember we are talking about just one city, financial capital of India.

And in mumbai after the police gave up finally the military had to be called.
Last edited by abhijitm on 10 Jun 2013 09:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by shaardula »

Arjun wrote:
shaardula wrote:btw, how many of the chaatiphaads here rushed out to the streets with machetes in their hands and blood on their minds, instead of their keyboards, when they heard of the massacre in the train?
what's your point shaardula ?
arjun, my point is, those who are contracted to do the actual dirty work of "nation building" are left high and dry, by the self proclaimed thekedars of "nation building" while we slap our thighs and beat our chests from remote safe houses.
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Post by shaardula »

abhijit, ask about mumbai, ask about GJ. mumbai justifies GJ does it? people in GJ are not people are not people or what? only financial capital people matter?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Yagnasri »

abhishek_sharma wrote:And the Sangh said Modi
I posted that I have spoken with top Pariwar person and Modi it is. Yet all the gurus are having Dhothi Shivers. :lol:

In BJP final decision of things is with RSS and LKA jinna secular paki drama and NG sabatage and celebration KA defeat etc sure created lot of ill will. He can not expected to enjoy power for long after that. Neither SS nor Y Sinha etc or with Sangh or tries to be part of Sangh values.

One thing all of you forgot for the first time (second time if you count ABV) a full time pracharak with Indic value base is going to be a PM. You can not imagine what it means. Return of Haidavi Swaraj after the time of Chathrapathi - Ironically the such strong leader leader like the only iron man of India S. Patel comes from Gujarath of all the places. :D
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by abhijitm »

shaardula wrote:abhijit, ask about mumbai, ask about GJ. mumbai justifies GJ does it? people in GJ are not people are not people or what? only financial capital people matter?
I am not justifying any riot. I gave example of Mumbai to justify my argument that it is extremely difficult to control riot even in a fortress island like mumbai.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Arjun »

shaardula wrote:think about it, how much time does it take even ina ghettoized community like those in india, to kill 1000s of people. you go to a house, breach the main door, fight the resisting man behind the door, about 20-30 minutes, minimum atleast, i would guess for a family of four? even with a flash massacre 10, 100 murders is understandable, 1000s is beyond comprehension, atleast to my mind.
Shaardula ji - all riots are reprehensible. Any loss of life whatsoever is reprehensible....

Modi did what he could in a very difficult situation. Everyone recognizes that Modi has a lot more to offer to India just now - and he seems to be the only one with credible solutions relevant to India's future.

A key intermediate victory for him was achieved yesterday. It is time to look to the future and talk about what other steps he needs to take. Can I request you to stop this ill-timed focus on the past ? In case you are not aware - the whole 2002 episode has been discussed to death on thousands of forums and blogs across the country. Read Madhu Kishwar when you get the chance.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

Published on Jun 10, 2013
Jayalalithaa greets Modi, calls him 'a good friend': PTI
CHENNAI: Tamil Nadu Chief Minister Jayalalithaa today greeted 'good friend' and her Gujarat counterpart Narendra Modi on his elevation as BJP's election campaign committee chief, but declined to comment on the development, insisting it was that party's internal matter.

Asked about the anointment of Modi as the Chairman of BJP's Election Campaign Committee for 2014 Lok Sabha polls at the Goa conclave yesterday, she said it was an internal matter of the BJP and that it would not be proper for her to comment.

"Politically I do not think it would be proper for me to make a comment on what has happened in another party, but at a personal level, Modi is a very good friend of mine, I have high regard for him as an able administrator. My good wishes are always with him whether he wins election in Gujarat or achieves an elevation in his own party. I'm happy for him," she told reporters here.

The chief minister was proceeding to New Delhi to meet Planning Commission Deputy Chairman Montek Singh Ahluwalia to discuss about the state's annual plan for 2013-14.

Modi was among a set of select leaders who had attended Jayalalithaa's swearing-in as chief minister in 2011 and the AIADMK supremo had returned the favour by attending his swearing-in ceremony last year after he won his third term.
So at least Modi can hope to get AIADMK on board his coalition in 2014. Gives anything between 30 to 40 seats extra.

Question is whether Modi can build a coalition without Trinamool Congress, Telegu Desam Party, Biju Janata Dal and Janata Dal (United). All these are not very keen on a tie up with BJP and/or have secular pretensions.
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