Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Jun 2013 23:04

RajeshA wrote:What Yeddi did was bad, but he was not the Peak of the Mountain. What Advani did is far worse!

I slightly disagree. BSY, almost like Kautilaya took a shapth to bring down a regime - BJP. And for what reason? Because the party forced him out. The party should distance itself from corruption and corrupt leaders. And shoo away leaders like BSY for ever.
What Advani did here is voice his protests on the direction of the party, any leader or cadre of the party has the right to voice their opinions. Advani had three options, a) be the statesman and wise guiding pillar for the party, b) just go away sulking. c) smile and just carry on with the chores/formalities. He chose (b). So be it.

When Gavaskar or Kapil retired, Indian national team did not fall away. BJP will survive this drama. But let us criticize Advani for the right things. Is he selfish or is he trying to protect Bharat from Modi? Those are the key questions, which we will never know the answer.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 10 Jun 2013 23:09

Karan M wrote:If he had been as forthright as you suggest he should be, it would have been one thing. Instead he did everything to scuttle Modi's elevation against the wishes of the rest of the party, using cheap politicking.

That's assuming the rest of the party was on board and his was a one-man crusade. By most accounts there was a sizeable section opposed to Modi.

When that failed, and he tried to use his seniority etc directly, he was overruled, so he plays this resignation drama. If he was so into resigning, why did he not resign the remaining two posts that he has still clung onto, the head of the NDA and the other one? Simply put, its obvious to most folks here, that his lust for power & desire to be PM or kingmaker (as versus his one time protege who is now running an independent ship) is having sabotage the BJP.

There is nobody senior enough to replace him as the head of NDA at short notice and his successor will have to be chosen by consensus. Eventually I do expect him to resign from the NDA leadership as well and thereafter retire from politics entirely. I'm willing to wait for now before calling him out on that.

Last, the rest of your comments about whether Modi is suitable or not, are to be decided by the BJP by its internal mechanism. That they have to some degree, and the rest will follow. If Advani cannot respect that process, he should leave, and if so, should leave in entirety, not merely offer his resignation for the 3rd time in 8 years. He is anyways too old for the job of becoming a PM, a thankless 24-7 job which demands an energetic, younger individual. And if hes thinking of playing the kingmaker, India has had enough of unelected kingmakers ruling by proxy - we have seen that over UPA1 and UPA2, and thanks but no thanks.

The assumption being that the only alternative to Modi is Advani or a handpicked acolyte. Hardly true.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jun 2013 23:10

Let me quote you back!!!!

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p1290187

Please indulge me for a minute.
There are people who hate Congress but are afraid of BJP because of its communal traits.
Advani is no fool to not notice the weakness or dissent within Congress.Some say he is baap of NM.
I was wrong earlier to propose NM should start a new party, let me make a new mistake by suggesting Advani to leave BJP with a newly acquired secular image so that he can split Congress in half by drawing away some veterans like Pranab and attracting CBN, Nitish Kumar, Patnaik into his fold and start a entire new game.
BJP may draw fewer seats with NM at helm but Congress will be finished with key leaders in a new coalition say "National Progressive Alliance", (or NPA,so ironic!)

Will this work?
PS:His recent blog does give a hint of things to come

Kudos for predicting this a year ago on 1 June, 2012.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 10 Jun 2013 23:13

SwamyG wrote:...or is he trying to protect Bharat from Modi?

Even hypothetically if we accept 'protect Bharat from Modi' as an option - that would only be on the table if this were about Modi's PM candidature....But he resigned on the issue of Modi as campaign committee head. This drama is purely on account of not getting his way within the party.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 10 Jun 2013 23:15

Muppalla ji,

NM must not have lied. It will be interesting IF LKA himself rebuts this claim.

abhishek_sharma wrote:How can Americans/Isrealis blackmail him? What has he done?

It is wrong to presume that he has done something.. There are many wheels within wheels. Sometime one makes tactical allies based on some promises. Even if the goals are dharmik, sometimes the timing misfires. there are plenty of things which may have happened which were not at all adharmik..

It is too late now. I again wish him to take his soosai to completion and cleanse NDA and BJP. And I commend RSS not to repeat the mistake which PIF did in 1936 when Basu and later Patel (in 1946) was forced to leave by the hathdharmita of a Mahatma. PIF seems to have learnt one lesson at least.

One cannot be ruthless with our own loved elders. The ball is in LKA's court. Ideally like ABV he should have entered vanaprastha. But that would not have cleansed the system. LKA will drink this halahala and be done with it.. After 20 years, like PVNR when emotions settle down and picture gets clearer, we will understand the necessity for this step. Just like PVNR's role in Puruliya, babri, his role in operationalizing the bomb and his efforts to purge INC of DIEnasty and gandu satraps (ND, SP, AS) is legendary.

Everyone's feet are of mud, even the murtis in our temples. No matter how muddy the feet are, we bow to the murti and get along with our life.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 10 Jun 2013 23:16

Advani is a spent horse, with or without he is nothing. He has behaved like some one who will destroy a dream if he can't have it, his megalomania has no boundaries, at 85 yrs of age it could not have been more disgraceful, unfortunately BJP is full of Jaichands, I bet even those having sheepish smile by side of NM (Sushma, Jaitley) want to become PM and can be stumbling block, Gadkari was a yes man for everyone without aspiring for higher posts hence he was better tolerated in BJP

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 10 Jun 2013 23:18

ND,SP,AS ? TIA

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 10 Jun 2013 23:20

ramana wrote:Bijushet, Saik was berating LKA for his antics. Need to put on your saiklogical decoder.
Saik, it will help all of us you convey your ideas in simple sentences and not like a C program.

Also vina has not changed sides. He has been a constant nationalist.
...
I think LKAji has tremneous pressure to do whatever it takes to stop Modi. ...
Satire/lampooning is the easiest for it conveys the criticsm effectively.

Thanks Ramanaji for asking SaiKji to write in more coherent terms. I do not have time to play kids word games with his posts.

As for Vinaji, I have never questioned his being a nationalist. I was checking if he switched his party loyalties from the Congress, a fact he has made no secret of in the past. I give him credit for being open about his political leaning unlike some posters here who keep saying they prefer BJP but either vote against it during elections or keep demanding a Ram Rajya or bust kind of leadership from BJP. They want to live in the Ram Rajya of Ayodhya but are not sure of donning saffron. You cannot have it both ways.

It gets tiring to read from poster after poster, their constant demands of BJP must do this, BJP must do that for it to get approval. I say damn these voters. BJP must do what is right for itself to get to power and in line with its vision of a future for India. If this vision appeals to India then they will join in this march else they can continue behaving like mindless barking dogs for the other party that has been in power for the last 60 years.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jun 2013 23:22

Atri wrote: One cannot be ruthless with our own loved elders.

Thats for the Greeks who revolted against their elders. Zeus and how he got power.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 10 Jun 2013 23:30

Atri ji, India has to be ruthless (loved or not). It is a lessons learnt topic and had Ambhiraj was ruthless to Ambhi Kumar there wouldn't be Alaxander in India. Jaichand factor has to be defeated to cleanse one's system.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 10 Jun 2013 23:31

Karan M wrote:Or LKA and his household are doing what they have done so far, which is to put their personal interests above those of the BJP, and in turn, the nations.

Isn't this sort of thinking dangerous. Placing random loyalty tests that are completely unnecessary. Politicians chase power, no need to denigrate them for it....
------------------------------------------------------

The BJP is not weak, it just seems so roiled by one person that it has forgotten how to add voters to itself. You add voters by talking about the issues before them. Prices, Jobs, Security, Justice, Children, etc. Page after page goes by without a single mention of these issues. How is the BJP going to add votes to itself? NM is right to focus on development even if it very simplistic at present but the BJP itself seems unable to expand that message. That is the problem.

Instead we have random calls for ruthlessness and expel them all, etc.

member_26147 · Post by **member_26147** » 10 Jun 2013 23:37

Sure, politicians chase power but they don't throw tantrums when they recognize the mandate or resign like a baby. This only reinforces NaMo and weakens LKA.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 10 Jun 2013 23:37

Like the life of Pi movie, we have a choice to believe that there were tiger with Pi or it was his mother. Either way, as Pi says, my whole family is dead, and which story you want to believe?
Advani is baad, but I will choose that he is being blackmailed by the Congress System. The Ambi went to said that they have indeed handed proof to Maino clan. End result is going to be same, but this makes a better story.

kasthuri · Post by **kasthuri** » 10 Jun 2013 23:38

Another good riddance may be in cards...

As Modi rises, JD-U hints it may quit NDA

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 10 Jun 2013 23:39

DhruvP wrote: This only reinforces NaMo and weakens LKA.

Yes, and if the popular theory is to be trusted he has suddenly gone senile because he is old.

:hits head on the wall:

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jun 2013 23:39

fanne,

!
Thanks, ramana

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 10 Jun 2013 23:41

NM did not lie in his tweet. LKA did say he is not against Modi's elevation (which he silently IMO really is). He said he is against the RSS interfering. His angst was directed directly not at NM but at Rajnath. RNS's decision (koi hitcha nahi) and announcement at Goa was not sealed by the Cadre response only, but also RSS backing. That was why RNS was terse and grim. Amit Shah was with LKA even today for a few hours. NM has talked to him too AFAIK twice today. If NM had lied, LKA in his present avatar would be the 1st to lambast the 'new selfish leadership' for lying through their teeth and not congoons running amock on news channels. So no, no way NM would lie on that tweet.

There is also nothing in Bharatiya about not being ruthless towards elders. Arjuna shows that sign of weakness in the BG. Krishna chides him for it. He says Bhisma, Drona and all those that are siding with the Kauravas are dead. Go ahead and make war with them..no problems in ruthlessly defeating them that they, the elders have decided to side with Adharma. The clarion calls for peace are over. Time to ruthlessly make war and finish those elders. The decency and dignity that the so called Modi camp has conducted itself in contrast with the so called Advani one stands clear. I really feel for NM who has earned it all being treated with so much pain when all he wants is good development, governance rooted through Bharatiya more. The person who has and is being attacked here is not LKA but NM.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 10 Jun 2013 23:41

ramana wrote:
Atri wrote: One cannot be ruthless with our own loved elders.
Thats for the Greeks who revolted against their elders. Zeus and how he got power.

Ramana ji,

Dhritarashtra was sent to vanvaas quietly. I am talking of something similar. Yes, it took some harsh words of Bheema to convince dhritarashtra - but that is really unfortunate on part of dhritarashtra.

LKA is not dhritarashtra. Due to things hinted in previous post, I still maintain he is a ghatotkacha who has deliberately taken this step. I would call his death (well, political death, IF it materializes just yet - which I doubt - his final battle has just begun and will continue for some time) a veeragati. I am glad that he has not only resigned he has declared his inability to do things like he did post 2009 anymore so dramatically that no one got chance to plan a counter-move.

He could have resigned and done this drama before Goa. Once policy is stated, it cannot be reverted - RSS is in no mood of doing that and he knows that. He did what he did immediately after Goa knowing that his demands will now be rejected. Good choice of time to soosai. I also hold the opinion that NM should be shielded and kept away and he should continue playing humble (which he will) and let RNS and others handle this matter and lie low for next few months concentrating on 2014 elections, flying under the radar with heavy payload strengthening the lines and invigorating the cadre. Total disappearance from MSM, if possible. Urban India is already sold to NM. Just that he should not give away his position.

Let LKA do his jeehard. It is essential. Jeehardi is ruthless with himself. BJP should have (and was) ruthless to many other figures (govindacharya, for example, amongst many others). There is no point in being ruthless to a person who is destined to attain a quite veera-gati. It is not yet time. Oil-droplet isn't big enough yet to siphon it out "ruthlessly".

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 10 Jun 2013 23:47

Swpan D tearing Sosai belt theory into pieces on NDTV.

Sushupti ji, Sosai belt theory? could you explain what that is? I don't know.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 10 Jun 2013 23:48

Good post Atri ji . I am also wondering the same, if he really wanted to stop namo's elevation why did he not resign on the 8th of June or even before the session started. Again lends credence to the theory that lka was being blackmailed or pressured. Now he can say I have done all i can. I am not supporting lka, just seeing if this can be a possibility.

negi · Post by **negi** » 10 Jun 2013 23:51

^ Because until 8th of June it was not formally known if Modi would be elevated or not. Blackmailed about what ? For not trying hard enough to become a PM ?

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 10 Jun 2013 23:52

harbans wrote:There is also nothing in Bharatiya about not being ruthless towards elders. Arjuna shows that sign of weakness in the BG. Krishna chides him for it. He says Bhisma, Drona and all those that are siding with the Kauravas are dead. Go ahead and make war with them..no problems in ruthlessly defeating them that they, the elders have decided to side with Adharma. The clarion calls for peace are over.

harbans ji,

but Arjuna has not shown sign of weakness here. Nor did Krishna (RSS) find it essential to counsel. Krishna's counselling is done 1½-2 years ago. I do not think there is any more confusion. This is simply the vyuha of war playing out itself.

So if Arjuna is not confused and showing any sign of weakness why waste time in chiding him? Krishna should focus on driving the chariot and let arjuna do the fighting. Occasional word of advice here and there is enough now.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 10 Jun 2013 23:57

abhishek_sharma wrote:How can Americans/Isrealis blackmail him?

Modi certainly has a lot of support from overseas. IMO, the meeting between Ambassadors of Israel could simply be a renewal of old links that LKA could have created during his time as HM. These are mostly people to people and such channels could be used to obtain a on-ground info on geopolitical situation.

More and more it seems that LKA is acting on the advice given by Israeli lobby. Wonder what Madhu Kishwar is saying?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jun 2013 23:58

Looks like all BRF members ae in GDF!!! Too bad lurkers are deprived of the chance to view the to and fro.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 10 Jun 2013 23:58

negi wrote:^ Because until 8th of June it was not formally known if Modi would be elevated or not. Blackmailed about what ? For not trying hard enough to become a PM ?

But Negi ji, he did not resign because of NM, did he?

He resigned because "the tradition of DD Upadhyay, SP Mukherjee, ABV was not being followed and "most" of leaders in BJP are pursuing their individual agendas, instead of collective agenda."

This did not change on 9th of june.. Everyone knew that they will be declaring chairmanship of NM in Goa long before.

To assuage him, he will have to name these leaders and BJP will have to make all of them fall in line.

He is not ready to name anyone. So, the timing and the wording of his resignation is rather curious.

negi · Post by **negi** » 10 Jun 2013 23:59

ABV had famously quoted lord Ram in Lok sabha "Na-bheeto maranat-asmi kevalam dooshito yasha" . Advani is doing exactly the opposite by behaving like a 4 year old ; back then too he got post of Deputy PM akin to modern ITVTY types who would rather become an Assistant VP than actually work.

Saral · Post by **Saral** » 11 Jun 2013 00:00

Sanku wrote:
DhruvP wrote: This only reinforces NaMo and weakens LKA.
Yes, and if the popular theory is to be trusted he has suddenly gone senile because he is old.

:hits head on the wall:

It's gradual, probably the decline in cognitive function has been ongoing for the last decade. If one must use Occam's razor, then this is a better explanation than various conspiracy (or even fake-conspiracy.. that all this is for show) theories floating around in this forum.

negi · Post by **negi** » 11 Jun 2013 00:03

LKA had started loosing it long back ever since he paid a visit to Na-Pakistan and praised Jinnah I remember some here tried to give a chankian twist to that episode too unfortunately it only flew in the benis thread.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 11 Jun 2013 00:03

Klaus wrote:Modi certainly has a lot of support from overseas. IMO, the meeting between Ambassadors of Israel could simply be a renewal of old links that LKA could have created during his time as HM. These are mostly people to people and such channels could be used to obtain a on-ground info on geopolitical situation.

Why talk about NM, saar?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 11 Jun 2013 00:04

Arjun wrote:
SwamyG wrote:...or is he trying to protect Bharat from Modi?
Even hypothetically if we accept 'protect Bharat from Modi' as an option - that would only be on the table if this were about Modi's PM candidature....But he resigned on the issue of Modi as campaign committee head. This drama is purely on account of not getting his way within the party.

It is only Advani or Modi who can energize the party cadres, and the supporters. Rest of the Delhi level leaders are also-rans onlee. However, we are seeing some good dynamic youngistan level spokespersons (Smriti, Meenakshi, Nirmala ityadi) and CMs (Parrikar, Chouhan, Raman ityadi). It is not time for these CMs yet. They do not yet have the visibility and recognizable factor (Laloo is probably more recognizable than these). Varun Gandhi probably will never ascend up there. So it is only Advani and Modi.

Advani knows there is no stopping Modi after this within BJP. So as Modi's mentor/guru, if he has seen traits of Modi that he deems unfit for the country then instead of voicing them directly he could be using this route. I prefer the straight forward route than this. Anyway, it is all ifs and buts about skeletons in Modi's cupboard that is not known in public. In the past they supported each other through tough time.

All speculation onlee.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 11 Jun 2013 00:09

Atri wrote:
Why talk about NM, saar?

Flavor of the year or flavor of the decade. Your pick. All I care about is a bulwark like India, when the battle-lines are drawn across the Euphrates.

LKA's probably decided to wrestle the pigs. Tathaastu!

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 11 Jun 2013 00:17

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 11 Jun 2013 00:23

venug wrote:
Swpan D tearing Sosai belt theory into pieces on NDTV.
Sushupti ji, Sosai belt theory? could you explain what that is? I don't know.

Read the postings by Atri and Sanku.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 11 Jun 2013 00:50

Muppalla wrote:Atri ji, excellent reminder. I was avoiding to get into this US amby stuff to just wait until things cool down. Dilli Billi has to be defeated if we want resurrect any thing called India.

I would like to remind the jirga that before the Indo-US Nuclear Deal was voted on in the Lok Sabha as a confidence motion and BJP voted against it on July 22, 2008, shortly beforehand US Ambassador met with Advani to talk about the deal.

Later on US Ambassador Mulford narrated that he was talking with Advani about such an important issue and all that Advani could talk about was about ban on visa for Modi to US.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 11 Jun 2013 01:00

abhishek_sharma wrote:How can Americans/Isrealis blackmail him? What has he done?

If family members have foreign bank accounts, other governments would know.

member_26147 · Post by **member_26147** » 11 Jun 2013 01:07

ramana wrote:Looks like all BRF members ae in GDF!!! Too bad lurkers are deprived of the chance to view the to and fro.

We need a politics forum.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 11 Jun 2013 01:20

Pranav wrote:If family members have foreign bank accounts, other governments would know.

You mean black money? If the account is clean, there should be no problem in having it?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 11 Jun 2013 01:21

negi wrote:^ Because until 8th of June it was not formally known if Modi would be elevated or not. Blackmailed about what ? For not trying hard enough to become a PM ?

If I was a top dog, then I would allow everybody around me to become part of the corrupt system. Then sneakily have audio/video & other evidences against them. The problem is when everybody turns up against me in unison. This has never happened against Congress - at least that we know of in the public arena. Nobody has the guts to revolt against Sonia in the last decade or so. All machinations, if there were, have been behind the doors. INC must have some kind of evidence against all these top BJP leaders - small or big.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jun 2013 01:26

So LKA hasnt quit BJP yet? Nor the Lok Sabha seat?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jun 2013 01:34

may be trying to measure where he stands, based on the amount of flux he can create... but that is like a dangerous mission similar to bungee jump, with the elasticity of reaction to an aged body. such stunts can backfire..

but, I have got my data here.. I can measure from the disturbance of this thread, counts/time against total dhaaga posts/time factor.