Managing Chinese Threat

[Bade]

Absolutely true above, Taiwan as an Indian ally is a mirage not worth pursuing beyond just as pin pricks to PRC actions in POK. We should use the card, but not invest in its ability to do greater good for us.

[Arihant]

^^^^
Taiwan considers itself as a part of China. It only objects to rule by CPC. If tomorow CPC were to be overthrown and KMT or its offshoot were to take power we would see Taiwan embracing the motherland eagerly. CPC and KMT are opposite sides of the same coin. The infamous 9-dashed line which shows the entire South-China Sea as Chinese lake was created by KMT.

Moreover Taiwan is an american headache. I have no wish in seeing India being dragged into this mess.

That is an over-simplification of the true nature of Taiwanese politics. The position that Taiwan is a part of China is most emphatically rejected by one half of Taiwan's polity - the "green" side of politics (as represented by the DPP and the TSU). The majority of the other half (the "blue" side - mainly the KMT) also consists of pragmatists, who have invested in inter-operation with China as an economic survival strategy. Even during the 6 recent years of KMT rule, Taiwan has continued to militarily augment both its defensive and offensive posture against China. The President, Ma Ying-Jeou and a small minority within the KMT might have struck a deal with the CPC to work towards eventual (but _very_ long-term) re-unification. There is considerable unease in the bulk of Taiwan's electorate when little hints of this emerge.

I am a frequent visitor to Taiwan, and the most interesting phenomenon that I see is that the younger generation is largely "green", and will have no truck with China. I am also frequently told by the chattering classes there that Taiwan feels abandoned, with only lukewarm and occasional support from the US, and that strong support from India would make a _huge_ difference (enough to swing the outcome of the next election).

Interestingly, India-China developments are very carefully reported and followed in the Taiwanese media (in stark contrast, to, say, even Hong Kong).

[SSridhar]

In today's world, there are no allies as it used to exist before 1990. We shall use Taiwan in areas where our interests coincide, just as they would try to do same with us. It is not a good strategy to completely sidestep a country such as Taiwan claiming it to be the same like China. It might very well be an exact replica of China, but if it helps in weakening China, in blackening China or in creating doubts of insecurity in Chinese minds, we shall do those things with Taiwan. The only permanency is our interests and our interests alone. Today, we face a massive challenge from China and we simply cannot face it alone and all by ourselves. Is US is an Indian ally when it does everything to undermine our security through Pakistan as it has done for the past 50 odd years ? Realpolitik.

[Lalmohan]

arihant - what is taiwan's position on tibet?

[RajeshA]

There is actually no Taiwan position on Tibet. What we have is a KMT position on it. If DPP wants to declare Taiwan independent, then it means they really don't care about Chinese politics around Tibet. In fact one would imagine that as a people trying to free themselves from Chinese embrace, they would have even sympathy for Tibetans.

It is Nehruvian mentality in India which positions India as the heir to British India that ties itself up in knots. However when India sees itself as an expression of an age-old civilization, then all these doubts disappear about where we are going and what we need to do.

If India wishes to contain Chinese hegemony in Central Asia, in Tibet, and now creeping into the Indian Ocean, we simply need to increase the political cost for China, and that means China needs to be checkmated in the Pacific. China should not be allowed to break through the first island chain.

India needs to give nuclear weapons technology to Vietnam and Taiwan, just as China has given it to Pakistan and North Korea.

[Virendra]

India needs to give nuclear weapons technology to Vietnam and Taiwan, just as China has given it to Pakistan and North Korea.

I personally don't mind it, but given that we're a self appointed soft power and dharm guru of the world. It just seems impossible.
Moreover, waging geopolitical battles with China means that we require comparable economic strength. That is absent from the scene right now. Or are we going to fight proxy wars in and around China, like Pakistan does to nullify the conventional imbalance against India

[RajeshA]

^^^^

East Turkestan (Xinjiang) and Tibet are available for proxy wars.

The mindset however to deal with China is to rubbish all its territorial claims, its claims on history, its claims about being one nation, and to not show it any respect - none at all. And we need a more hard-line "Middle Kingdom" policy towards China then they have towards the rest of Asia. The only way to push back its territorial hunger is to have a greater territorial hunger towards lands controlled by China.

[wong]

India needs to give nuclear weapons technology to Vietnam and Taiwan, just as China has given it to Pakistan and North Korea.

This last sentence is too funny. Taiwan like Japan could have a nuclear weapon in less than 30 days. It really doesn't need Indian help. REALLY.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_a ... estruction

What's your next suggestion? India will assist Taiwan with semiconductors manufacturing ?? That I would like to see.

[RajeshA]

This last sentence is too funny. Taiwan like Japan could have a nuclear weapon in less than 30 days. It really doesn't need Indian help. REALLY.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_a ... estruction

What's your next suggestion? India will assist Taiwan with semiconductors manufacturing ?? That I would like to see.

No, Taiwan can assist India with semiconductors manufacturing. No ego here!

But we could provide Taiwan with some tested designs or get them tested, considering Taiwan's limited diplomatic options.

[wong]

^^^^^

Of course you have a giant ego. Your last attempt at a thermonuclear bomb was a dud. I'm pretty sure Taiwan can do much better on its own. No thanks.

How about helping Taiwan with a light fighter too. (Hint: Taiwan's indigenous fighter has been in service for 20 years (okay 19), but it's no LCA). The Taiwan program started after LCA and finished 20 years earlier. Dude, your giant Indian ego aside, they really don't need your help.

[RajeshA]

^^^^^

Of course you have a giant ego. Your last attempt at a thermonuclear bomb was a dud. I'm pretty sure Taiwan can do much better on its own. No thanks.

How about helping Taiwan with a light fighter too. (Hint: Taiwan's indigenous fighter has been in service for 20 years (okay 19), but it's no LCA). The Taiwan program started after LCA and finished 20 years earlier. Dude, your giant Indian ego aside, they really don't need your help.

wong,

that is just your opinion. Has no worth.

As for "No thanks", what has a Chinese Commie to thank or not thank for! The PRC opinion is irrelevant to what India and Taiwan do together. Besides we haven't even started as yet, so why are going all twisted! Leave it. It is not an issue for discussion with the PRC Chinese.

[wong]

^^^

I hold Taiwanese citizenship.

How about helping us with a light fighter??? Please!!!!!! LOL.

[RajeshA]

^^^

I hold Taiwanese citizenship.

How about helping us with a light fighter??? Please!!!!!! LOL.

No wong, I don't believe you. You sound like a slave Commie Chinese!

I suggest you go and troll somewhere else!

[sanjaykumar]

You mean those indigenous fighters that are so good that Taiwan keeps its F-5s in service.

[RajeshA]

sanjaykumar ji,

no need to undermine Taiwanese achievements. wong is not a Taiwanese. He is simply a slave commie. You are falling for his bait.

[sudarshan]

And I hold Tibetan citizenship. How about you Chinese get out of my country?

[RajeshA]

And I hold Tibetan citizenship. How about you Chinese get out of my country?

I don't think the chinese bot would be coming around that soon anymore.

Added: Or may be the commie whip would send him back!

[wong]

^^^

I hold Taiwanese citizenship.

How about helping us with a light fighter??? Please!!!!!! LOL.

No wong, I don't believe you. You sound like a slave Commie Chinese!

I suggest you go and troll somewhere else!

When I get home from work and scan my Republic of China - Taiwan passport with the name Wong on the inside, will you Indians then help my country with a light combat aircraft ??? Seriously!

What you Indians will never understand because you come from a country with a 1,000 different ethnic groups is that blood is thicker than water (politics).

[RajeshA]

When I get home from work and scan my Republic of China - Taiwan passport with the name Wong on the inside, will you Indians then help my country with a light combat aircraft ??? Seriously!

What you Indians will never understand because you come from a country with a 1,000 different ethnic groups is that blood is thicker than water (politics).

Go scan!

[wong]

You mean those indigenous fighters that are so good that Taiwan keeps its F-5s in service.

LOL

"With the introduction of 150 F-16s, 60 Mirage 2000-5s and >>>>> 130 F-CK-1s <<<<<< in mid-to-late-1990s, the F-5E/F series became second line fighters in ROCAF service and mostly are now withdrawn from service as squadrons converted to new fighters entering ROCAF service "

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-5

[wong]

When I get home from work and scan my Republic of China - Taiwan passport with the name Wong on the inside, will you Indians then help my country with a light combat aircraft ??? Seriously!

What you Indians will never understand because you come from a country with a 1,000 different ethnic groups is that blood is thicker than water (politics).

Go scan!

No prob. Tonight. When I get home.

[sudarshan]

What you Indians will never understand because you come from a country with a 1,000 different ethnic groups is that blood is thicker than water (politics).

LOL! It's only when there are a 1000 different ethnic groups that the question of "blood over water" even comes into the picture. When you're all one homogen(ized)eous group, what's to fight over?

What a moronic statement.

[svinayak]

What you Indians will never understand because you come from a country with a 1,000 different ethnic groups is that blood is thicker than water (politics).

LOL! It's only when there are a 1000 different ethnic groups that the question of "blood over water" even comes into the picture. When you're all one homogen(ized)eous group, what's to fight over?

What a moronic statement.

They will never understand India since they only read about India from western books. I have Taiwanese neighbor and friends and work colleagues. I have never seen anybody behave like this poster. Very strange and unexplainable.
I need to ask my neighbor whose entire family is a practicing buddhist family.

Taiwanese were rattled by the 1996 Chinese military exercise. The same Taiwanese were afraid and ran away to US shores.

The semiconductor company TSMC the initial investors were Indians.

[Arihant]

There is actually no Taiwan position on Tibet. What we have is a KMT position on it. If DPP wants to declare Taiwan independent, then it means they really don't care about Chinese politics around Tibet. In fact one would imagine that as a people trying to free themselves from Chinese embrace, they would have even sympathy for Tibetans.

It is Nehruvian mentality in India which positions India as the heir to British India that ties itself up in knots. However when India sees itself as an expression of an age-old civilization, then all these doubts disappear about where we are going and what we need to do.

If India wishes to contain Chinese hegemony in Central Asia, in Tibet, and now creeping into the Indian Ocean, we simply need to increase the political cost for China, and that means China needs to be checkmated in the Pacific. China should not be allowed to break through the first island chain.

India needs to give nuclear weapons technology to Vietnam and Taiwan, just as China has given it to Pakistan and North Korea.

RajeshA is spot on in his analysis of Taiwan's position on Tibet.

It also highlights the difficult contradictions that Taiwan has to live with. For the longest time, the KMT _was_ the Republic of China (much like the CPC _was_ the PRC, and every bit as brutal too). Many of the KMT's policies are a legacy of its Chinese past. More recently, many of the more modern and younger elements of the KMT have attempted to revise some of this, but every attempt to make a change has been met with much outrage from China (they have perfected that art).

The DPP would most emphatically reject any claim on Tibet. As recently as last year, this is what transpired:

Lawmakers pass DPP resolution to invite Dalai Lama

Even more interestingly, the DPP government that ruled till 2008 were extremely eager (verging on being desperate) to engage with India (they set up a special Taiwan-India Council within the office of the President). Our response, sadly, was lukewarm. We did have some modicum of low-level contact with the Taiwanese, but we were mortified of the Chinese finding out....

[sudarshan]

When I get home from work and scan my Republic of China - Taiwan passport with the name Wong on the inside, will you Indians then help my country with a light combat aircraft ??? Seriously!

What you Indians will never understand because you come from a country with a 1,000 different ethnic groups is that blood is thicker than water (politics).

Go scan!

No prob. Tonight. When I get home.

And I'm keeping my phone line open with the Taiwanese government. As soon as I see the scan with your name "Wong" on the inside, I will instantly contact the Taiwanese govt. and get this LCA project going. Promise. For their part, the Taiwanese govt. needs to be ready with a billion dollars in hard cash, which will be my broker fee. This cash can be paid to my bank account, whose details I will post here shortly thereafter.

Seriously, what kind of nutter would go posting his passport on an open forum? And you expect to be taken seriously? Unless it's a fake passport, of course. Hmmm....

[sudarshan]

I have never seen anybody behave like this poster. Very strange and unexplainable.

Not when you factor in the 50 cents per post, sir.

[Suraj]

RajeshA, wong: please back off. No need for the personal attacks.

wong: I question the suggestion that Taiwan has an official position on Tibet that amounts to anything of consequence, even with KMT at the helm. For all practical purposes, India's position in response to Taiwan's alleged official position would have the figurative shape of an extended middle finger; no one gives a damn about what Taiwan thinks about anything involving the mainland until the RoC flag is flying over Tiananmen Square again.

I see it as your own personal opinion, quite distinct from that of even known Pan Blue Taiwanese I know (and I know some Pan Green types as well, who actively resent the use of 'RoC' over Taiwan, and made resentful comments about the 'Chinese Taipei' designation during the 2012 Olympics). The Pan Blue types I know are not even as pro-unification as the typical generalizations would suggest. While they may have a degree of pragmatism towards future integration, different from that of overt Pan Green independence sentiment, they also despise both the mainland rulers and the general uncouth attitudes of mainland people, to the extent of discouraging relationships with 1st gen mainlanders here. Having seen that in person, reading your 'blood is thicker than water' claim made me laugh.

From personal experience, Taiwanese folk are very friendly towards Indians, both on an interpersonal level, and in terms of making access to Taiwan straightforward. I don't need a visa for entry - Indians living in the west can easily get an electronic travel authorization document from the Taiwan MoFA website. Visiting Taipei was an excellent experience. President Ma being able to make a transit halt in BOM was reported as progressive news in the TW press. There's often stated resentment from Taipei that India doesn't quite abandon the status quo and actively recognize a diplomatic relationship, instead of the current wink/nod system of quasi-official representation in each others countries.

[eklavya]

What you Indians will never understand because you come from a country with a 1,000 different ethnic groups is that blood is thicker than water (politics).

wong, so it was 6 Jun not even a week ago. You must surely remember what happened on 6 Jun 1989. So, I have a few questions for you:

1) What was the ethnic group of the peaceful protesters in Tiananmen Square?

2) What was the ethic group of the criminal PLA units that killed the peaceful protesters in Tiananmen Square?

3) Did politics feature at all in the reason the criminals in the CPC and PLA killed the peaceful protesters in Tiananmen Square?

[wong]

I have never seen anybody behave like this poster. Very strange and unexplainable.

Not when you factor in the 50 cents per post, sir.

Then I must be part of Taiwan's 50 cent army. Seriously, this insult gets old, tiring and shows the lack of fostering creativity in the Indian education system.

Here you go Rajesh. Your ego and insults aside, Taiwan really doesn't need your Indian "technology". It's actually pretty insulting to a Taiwanese to suggest we do.

http://s1.postimg.org/h42fkwy5b/image.jpg

Need it in higher res?? Happy to oblige.

[wong]

The semiconductor company TSMC the initial investors were Indians.

TSMC was founded by Morris Chang (doesn't sound like an Indian name to me).
It was incubated by ITRI.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industri ... _Institute

[sudarshan]

Then I must be part of Taiwan's 50 cent army. Seriously, this insult gets old, tiring and shows the lack of fostering creativity in the Indian education system.

Here you go Rajesh. Your ego and insults aside, Taiwan really doesn't need your Indian "technology". It's actually pretty insulting to a Taiwanese to suggest we do.

http://s1.postimg.org/h42fkwy5b/image.jpg

Need it in higher res?? Happy to oblige.

We use our creativity for better things than manufacturing insults. As for your grand claim, the Indian and Taiwanese govts can sort that out on their own. Your word on the subject is meaningless (and also egotistic).

Now please post your bank account details. That will really add value to the discussion here.

[eklavya]

Then I must be part of Taiwan's 50 cent army.

Definitely part of the criminal CPC-PLA 50 cent army.

[brihaspati]

nageshks,
there are two possible indications of spread of Buddhism among Mongols before mid-14th and even mid-13th centuries. First is the known and largely archeologically verified presence of Buddhism [along with Zoroastrianism and Manichaeism] between the 8th to 11 century among Uighurs with whom the Mongols came into contact long before the 13th. The primary indirect inference of this comes from the presence in Mongolian of significant Sanskrit loanwords with Buddhist theological connections as modified in the Uyghur language, and the predominant influence of Uyghur script on the Mongolian. The word usage being more Uyghur-Sanskritik than Tibetan or Chinese versions of the same. Mongols were very much faction and "ethnicity" divided [all of that region was so divided - apparently with the exception of one 100% homogenized single ethnicity and unique China-specific homo-erectus descended ethnicity, perhaps cloned from a single source to achieve this level of homogenization - but then confined and cowering behind the walls of their own acknowledged boundaries much further down south and east than Mongolia].

So the western "Mongols" had different religious exposures compared to the eastern ones - both in time and space.

The second is the as yet incomplete and ongoing work [apparently made difficult by both Russians and the Chinese authorities] on the Xixia/Tangut empires, which had extensive Buddhist networks and which seems to have had significant influence on the Mongols before formal annexation.

The supposed entry of "Buddhism" onlee in the mid-13th comes out of the formal documentary declarations of tax-exemptions of monks, or elevation of the boy-prodigy Haiyun under Chingiz. But then the documents show a presence and acquaintance with Buddhism that existed "before" - and not only in the "invaded" lands [refs to visits to Mongol eastern heartland by the monks and their local "acceptance" and miracles].

"Corp" formation/independent self-sufficient unit structure etc perhaps cannot be deemed Mongol first - innovation - can it? Anyway, but not perhaps that relevant for the thread.

[Prem]

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article ... s_to_China
Edward Snowden Reveals Secret US Hacking Programs to China

Snowden reportedly showed reporter Lana Lam documents that showed NSA had been hacking computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland since 2009. He estimated there were hundreds of targets in Hong Kong and mainland China, including the Chinese University of Hong Kong. None of the documents revealed any information about Chinese military systems, Snowden said.“We hack network backbones - like huge internet routers, basically - that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one,” Snowden told Lam.The article at the South China Morning Post is currently offline, probably due to massive traffic, but here’s the address: scmp.comI’d like someone who supports what Snowden is doing to explain to me why this is not simply treason.The South China Morning Post is back online now - here are some sections of the article: Edward Snowden: US Government Has Been Hacking Hong Kong and China for Years | South China Morning Post.In a frank hour-long interview, the 29-year-old, who US authorities have confirmed is now the subject of a criminal case, said he was neither a hero nor a traitor and that:
•US National Security Agency’s controversial Prism programme extends to people and institutions in Hong Kong and mainland China;
•The US is exerting “bullying” diplomatic pressure on Hong Kong to extradite him;
•Hong Kong’s rule of law will protect him from the US;
•He is in constant fear for his own safety and that of his family.
Snowden has been in Hong Kong since May 20 when he fled his home in Hawaii to take refuge here, a move which has been questioned by many who believe the city cannot protect him.“People who think I made a mistake in picking HK as a location misunderstand my intentions. I am not here to hide from justice, I am here to reveal criminality,” he said.Snowden said that according to unverified documents seen by the Post, the NSA had been hacking computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland since 2009. None of the documents revealed any information about Chinese military systems, he said.
One of the targets in the SAR, according to Snowden, was Chinese University and public officials, businesses and students in the city. The documents also point to hacking activity by the NSA against mainland targets.Snowden believed there had been more than 61,000 NSA hacking operations globally, with hundreds of targets in Hong Kong and on the mainland.“We hack network backbones - like huge internet routers, basically - that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one,” he said.“Last week the American government happily operated in the shadows with no respect for the consent of the governed, but no longer. Every level of society is demanding accountability and oversight.”Snowden said he was releasing the information to demonstrate “the hypocrisy of the US government when it claims that it does not target civilian infrastructure, unlike its adversaries”.“Not only does it do so, but it is so afraid of this being known that it is willing to use any means, such as diplomatic intimidation, to prevent this information from becoming public.”Since the shocking revelations a week ago, Snowden has been vilified as a defector but also hailed by supporters such as WikiLeaks’ Julian Assange.“I’m neither traitor nor hero. I’m an American,” he said, adding that he was proud to be an American. “I believe in freedom of expression. I acted in good faith but it is only right that the public form its own opinion

[RajeshA]

Here you go Rajesh. Your ego and insults aside, Taiwan really doesn't need your Indian "technology". It's actually pretty insulting to a Taiwanese to suggest we do.

http://s1.postimg.org/h42fkwy5b/image.jpg

Need it in higher res?? Happy to oblige.

My my, . So your CPC handlers provide you with any document you require. I think Taiwanese authorities should go on high alert and watchful about PRC subversives. Could you ask your handlers now whether they can also provide you with an Indian passport?

wong,

I am impressed. You have got good connections. You can even pose as a Taiwanese.

[SSridhar]

Our response, sadly, was lukewarm. We did have some modicum of low-level contact with the Taiwanese, but we were mortified of the Chinese finding out....

This is where India makes mistakes. Such contacts should be open, rather then being secretive.

[Arihant]

Our response, sadly, was lukewarm. We did have some modicum of low-level contact with the Taiwanese, but we were mortified of the Chinese finding out....

This is where India makes mistakes. Such contacts should be open, rather then being secretive.

SSridhar, I totally agree.

And in case we still suspected that Taiwanese loyalties lay ultimately with China, the following should be an eye-opener:
Taiwanese independence more popular, survey says

A couple of interesting points re this article:

First, pro-independence sentiment is far stronger in the younger demographic.

Second, many who disapprove of a declaration of independence are driven by fear. Chinese psyops maintain a steady barrage of stories in the media about how they would attack, which suburbs of Taipei the paratroops would land in, how they would carry out a decapitation attack on the government (these latter stories stopped after Ma Ying-Jeou became President).

As I said earlier, many in the Taiwanese establishment (both blue and green) believe that an overt statement of Indian support would make a huge difference.

[Suraj]

Some of the Pan Blue (pro eventual unification) are led by the TINA factor, as opposed to just political dogma. I suspect that overt consistent support from big powers would turn some of them Pan Green (pro independence) because they notice a change in the direction the wind is blowing in.

[sanjaykumar]

Much more worrying for the glorious motherland: however, younger generations tended to disapprove of the arrangement, Tai said, with 62.3 percent of those aged 20-29 and 53.6 percent of the 30-39 age group saying the “two sides, one country” option is unacceptable.

[RajeshA]

Much more worrying for the glorious motherland: however, younger generations tended to disapprove of the arrangement, Tai said, with 62.3 percent of those aged 20-29 and 53.6 percent of the 30-39 age group saying the “two sides, one country” option is unacceptable.

Me thinks in Taiwan they don't like the Chicoms!