LCA News and Discussions

[eklavya]

Your tunes are confusing, one minute you say Tejas must meet IOC, FOC else it cannot fight F-16 or Su-30MKK and now you say only Rafale can save us from the MKK hordes, technically Tejas might get FOC and a squadron is made available before the 1st Rafale squadron is delivered.

It is well known that LCA Mk 1 is a bit underpowered, so from a capability perspective, the LCA Mk 2 is what is really required. But we have to go one step at a time, and the experience gained with the LCA Mk 1 will also be invaluable, but it will not be a deterrent in the way the Rafale will be. Threats continue to evolve, and the longer it gets delayed, the less relevant the LCA will be from an operational perspective; but the LCA development is also about getting up the curve, so the R&D work and the learning has to continue.

[Sagar G]

AESA radar, SPECTRA electronic warfare system, METEOR missile, significantly lower RCS => Rafale superiority

Karan M has already answered about the bolded part so there is no point going back to it again and again I am more interested
in you RCS talk regarding Su-30 vs. Rafale. How come you are so confidently saying that Rafale has "significantly lower" RCS than Su-30 MKI ??? Maybe you are right but I am more interested in seeing some raw data. Also does it mean that having a lower RCS is a guarantee that you can beat a heavier category fighter hand's down ???

[eklavya]

Sagar, Karan's ramblings should not distract you from the fact that the Rafale is superior to the Su-30MKI on each and every one of these aspects: AESA radar, Meteor missile, Spectra EW, much lower RCS, much lower thermal signature. The Rafale (and the Typhoon) are simply a generation ahead. India is buying the Rafale precisely because it is well ahead of the Su-30MKI (otherwise why bother, just buy another 126 Su-30MKI, at half the cost).

[Sagar G]

Sagar, Karan's ramblings should not distract you from the fact that the Rafale is superior to the Su-30MKI on each and every one of these aspects: AESA radar, Meteor missile, Spectra EW, much lower RCS, much lower thermal signature. The Rafale (and the Typhoon) are simply a generation ahead. India is buying the Rafale precisely because it is well ahead of the Su-30MKI (otherwise why bother, just buy another 126 Su-30MKI, at half the cost).

India is buying Rafale since our AF wanted a medium category aircraft. I agree that Rafale has advanced techs but calling it as superior to MKI without any formidable amount of data in hand isn't a smart thing to do. You haven't shown any raw data to support your theory but still you accuse Karan of "rambling" when he has put more data in his reply. Bringing up AESA, Meteor, Spectra again and again proves nothing. I think a Rafale vs. Su-30 MKI fight will be very interesting to watch out for but delivering a judgement beforehand and trying to passing it as "fact" makes no sense at all.

[Karan M]

Radar Cross Section. Factor into your response, and try again.

You have no idea what you are talking about do you? You made the bizarre claim that the Rafale is superior to the Su-30 MKI across the board, and when that is disproven with specific points where the Rafale is yet to achieve equivalent capability (in some cases restricted by its design limitations such as its limited volume for a radar scanner), you claim RCS as some sort of definitive superiority, without even taking into account how a fully loaded Rafale would fare?

What exactly is the RCS of the Rafale, pray tell? Are you even aware of the 4th root scaling factor between radar cross section & radar ERP which ensures that a 4/4+ Gen fighter loses most of its RCS advantages when festooned with heavy stores such as fuel tanks, missiles and bombs!! That is the problem Rafale's Spectra faces when going up against a Su-30 MKI which can already range upto 3000 km on internal fuel.

Furthermore, the Su-30 MKI can field heavy jammers which are far more powerful in terms of ERP than even the ELTA 8222 SPJ which is deemed sufficient by the Israeli AF for its F-15s! The 8222 is currently the standard fit on the Su-30 MKI.

http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0 ... 9.Full.jpg

The SAP 14 has already been exported, according to a Knirti brochure. The brochure shows the pod fitted to what it describes as an Su-30MKI (pictured below). The aircraft, side number 02, is believed to have been involved in the Su-30MKI development for India, suggesting that the SAP 14 may have at least been on offer.

The size of these jammers & the fact that they are the replacement of the L005S (itself remarked to be one of the most powerful of its kind) speaks for itself.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Su-35S-Flanker.html

Incidentally, DARE showed much the same fit on its Super-30 MKI exhibit

None of which even addresses the fact that as it stands the Rafale is still behind the Su-30 MKI in terms of key munitions integrated, eg long range ARMs, and IRST! The Rafale only has a long range TV sensor since its FLIR component proved obsolescent, and one can only hope that what the IAF gets is upto spec!! Similarly, Su-30 MKIs feature KAB-500/1500 series TV guided munitions which compare in range to the AASM series munitions & the Russians recently unveiled the Kh-28 series missiles which can be adopted by the IAF if it so chooses. The Su-30 MKI also features the 2060P which has no equivalent on the Rafale.

While both platforms have pluses and minuses, the Rafale being a more compact platform that can carry a very impressive payload, its simply silly to call it superior to the MKI across the board or vice versa! Especially, when the Su-30 MKI is to be upgraded to the Super-30 standard, which will add substantial capabilities to the platform in both its avionics & weapons.

Sagar, Karan's ramblings should not distract you from the fact that the Rafale is superior to the Su-30MKI on each and every one of these aspects: AESA radar, Meteor missile, Spectra EW, much lower RCS, much lower thermal signature. The Rafale (and the Typhoon) are simply a generation ahead. India is buying the Rafale precisely because it is well ahead of the Su-30MKI (otherwise why bother, just buy another 126 Su-30MKI, at half the cost).

More rubbish! There is no evidence yet that India has purchased the Meteor - its on offer and not yet procured! AESA radar is no panacea either when there are limitations in the platform restricting the size of the antenna, the Typhoon claims performance equivalent to smaller AESA radars in terms of range precisely because of its large scanner & high gain!! The same advantage as accrues to the PESA on the Su-30 MKI.
One of the big reasons the Rafale went to AESA was because of complaints around its smaller RBE-2 PESA which simply did not have the power-aperture performance of the larger radars on its peers!! By scaling up the power available, they hope to achieve the range performance automatically achieved by radars which feature larger scanners!

Judging by your comments, the F-2 fielded by Japan eons ago is superior to the F-15J in Japanese service merely because it fields AESA radar, never mind the actual performance achieved!

At Red Flag, Bars equipped Su-30 MKIs routinely conducted BVR missions, despite jamming & operating in training mode, testifying to its performance. In exercises with the French AF, the Su-30 MKI weapons system came in for particular praise, especially the Bars in BVR.
And after all this, the Bars received another iterative upgrade to its software just recently.

If this were not enough, the Super 30 upgrade as matter of fact envisages a substantial increase in the baseline level of the radar to Irbis standards, which already stands as one of the most powerful AI radars ever developed.
http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/12/b ... ntial.html
An AESA will come for Tranche 2 of the upgrade based on technology developed for the FGFA/PAKFA, but the IAF is proceeding iteratively, because the current system is already fairly powerful, and even a Bars upgrade will be substantial in its own right.

Net, its about functional performance not just buzzwords - "Spectra", or "AESA" or similar jazz, which doesn't really impress anybody who tracks these issue consistently.

For all the talk, the Eurocanards (including the Rafale) fall behind mature platforms like the F-15 which are far superior in terms of munitions integrated & can also field consistently upgraded sensors. The F-15s fielded by the Singaporeans for instance. Similarly, the Su-30 MKI was built upon the technology developed for the original Su-35, including its TVC engines (which again the Rafale does not have), its triplane integrated FBW FCS, its digital PESA N011M radar & its weapons fit. Today, for the Super-30 upgrade, its again tapping the systems developed for the definitive Su-35 which is going into production!

India is buying the Rafale not because it is merely superior to the Su-30 MKI, but because it wants to diversify its sources of procurement, which is exactly why it is not relying on one source of supplies, such as Russia!! This is the same as it did in the past acquiring aircraft from BAe and Dassault. Also, it hopes to have a lower cost of operation with a lighter weight, single seater procurement, though the high cost of TOT & French spares may render this assumption moot.

And there is nothing really magical about Spectra either, its merely an integrated EW suite! Multiple similar suites are in service either on other platforms, or in development for other aircraft. India itself is fielding a comprehensive AESA jamming suite on its MiG-29s in collaboration with Selex.

Clearly, you know little about any of these platforms and are merely content to mouth platitudes!

[Philip]

And if the Super-30 is going to have missiles carried in an internal weapons bay (between the two engines as shown in one model configuration),its RCS will reduce still further..

[eklavya]

I think a Rafale vs. Su-30 MKI fight will be very interesting to watch out for but delivering a judgement beforehand and trying to passing it as "fact" makes no sense at all.

The Rafale is superior on every parameter, which is why it is being bought at 2x the cost of the Su-30. For whatever reason, your ego is invested in the inferior platform, it doesn't really matter, the PLAAF knows the score, and that is what matters.

[member_26622]

Since when did cost equate performance?? Twice as costly means twice superior, so we should buy it. Three times as costly means three times superior, so we should buy it.....This is a ludicrous statement.

[eklavya]

India is buying the Rafale not because it is merely superior to the Su-30 MKI, but because it wants to diversify its sources of procurement, which is exactly why it is not relying on one source of supplies, such as Russia!!

There is plenty of public source material that alludes to the superiority of the Rafale over the F-15, F-16, F-18, Su-30, and the Typhoon. The IAF buys the maximum capability it can afford within its limited budget, not diversity or weight categories.

[eklavya]

Since when did cost equate performance?? Twice as costly means twice superior, so we should buy it. Three times as costly means three times superior, so we should buy it.....This is a ludicrous statement.

its the opposite of what you have said. No one should pay 2x for the same / inferior performance. If Rafale is not superior to Su-30 and costs 2x, buying it is a huge waste of money.

[Sagar G]

The Rafale is superior on every parameter, which is why it is being bought at 2x the cost of the Su-30. For whatever reason, your ego is invested in the inferior platform, it doesn't really matter,

Without backing up your claims with data is not going to help you prove your theory and please don't worry where my ego is invested but do try to come up with data instead of making ludicrous claims.

the PLAAF knows the score, and that is what matters.

And the PLAAF chief told this to you personally ???

[member_26622]

There is plenty of public source material that alludes to the superiority of the Rafale over the F-15, F-16, F-18, Su-30, and the Typhoon. The IAF buys the maximum capability it can afford within its limited budget, not diversity or weight categories.

20 billion dollar is a lot to pay for 'alludes' to the superiority. The tiger tank and ME 262 were superior to anything the Russians or American fielded in WW II, so Hitler should have won right? Wars are not fought and winners are not determined using specifications sheets.

[Sagar G]

DRDO chief reviews Tejas programme | QRT to beat IOC-2 deadline | ADA-HAL told to be like battlefield soldiers

Bangalore: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) chief Dr Avinash Chander conducted a day-long review of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme on Friday. To pull out the programme out of delays, the DRDO chief has now decided to form a quick reaction team (QRT) for achieving the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-2) by September this year.

The missile man said that India’s long-awaited dream of having a desi-built fighter jet officially don the Squadron colours, is now at a striking distance. “I have not come to Bangalore with a magic wand. I wanted to see that the design agency (Aeronautical Development Agency) and the production unit (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd) work closely to see that IOC-2 is achieved at the earliest. The QRT is being formed to handle all concerns without any more delays,” Avinash told Express.
Confirming that the project has entered the IOC-2 mission mode, Avinash said that HAL and ADA is left with no option but to sit together and sort out all issues across the table. “I told both teams that they will have to be like battlefield soldiers.

They will have to anticipate the problems and be alert all the time. I am a strong believer in transparent action and ADA will spearhead the QRT with efficient members drawn from all constituents of Tejas project,” the Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, said.

He said the idea of QRT was to ensure that no Tejas aircraft from the current test line should be idle for want of attention, a term technically called as AOG (Aircraft on Ground). He said a Chief Controller at the DRDO HQ will monitor the progress of Tejas as it achieves IOC-2. “I have decided to make available all knowledgeable resources in DRDO so that the September deadline is met,” he said.

Satisfied with the new production facilities being set up in HAL for Tejas, Avinash said the jig fixtures and documentation process are almost in place. “HAL is definitely making an effort to improve their processes. I saw a commitment from both ADA and HAL to step-up their work philosophies and approach in dealing with delays. It took 30 years for Akash Missile Systems to be inducted but today we have a work order worth Rs 30,000 crore. Technologies need to matured, and there’s no short-cut to it,” he said.

When asked about the widespread allegation and media reports that cracks have already appeared in ADA-HAL combine, the DRDO boss said: “So far, I have been making missiles to destroy aircraft. And, now I am focusing on technologies to make an aircraft fly the fighter way, even evading the missiles. Let me stay focused. Problems are there, but we need to overcome them.”

[eklavya]

The Rafale is superior on every parameter, which is why it is being bought at 2x the cost of the Su-30. For whatever reason, your ego is invested in the inferior platform, it doesn't really matter,

Without backing up your claims with data is not going to help you prove your theory and please don't worry where my ego is invested but do try to come up with data instead of making ludicrous claims.

the PLAAF knows the score, and that is what matters.

And the PLAAF chief told this to you personally ???

There is plenty of data on the net and on this forum which alludes to the superiority of the Rafale in every department.

For example:

French Rafale is best at dogfight

Vinage said some of his best moments in flying were during the Indo-French exercises. "We went in with the Rafale and IAF came in with the Su-30. That's when we got a good look at the aircraft. The first thought that came to my mind was power -- Su-30 is about power and being powerful. But for the dogfight, I'd go for the Rafale."

[eklavya]

There is plenty of public source material that alludes to the superiority of the Rafale over the F-15, F-16, F-18, Su-30, and the Typhoon. The IAF buys the maximum capability it can afford within its limited budget, not diversity or weight categories.

20 billion dollar is a lot to pay for 'alludes' to the superiority. The tiger tank and ME 262 were superior to anything the Russians or American fielded in WW II, so Hitler should have won right? Wars are not fought and winners are not determined using specifications sheets.

The selection of the Rafale has not been done based on spec sheets. The reason the country is prepared to pay such as astronomical price for the Rafale is because of the capability leap it brings.

Enjoy:

[RKumar]

^ This picture alone does not say much ... you don't know what were the engagement rules. This is one of the marketing tricks. But I don't deny the fact that IAF selected it as one of two best and suitable plane for Indian requirements. Yes, it is very capable fighter but not super dumper that we can't live without.

[Sagar G]

eklavya the French pilot nowhere says like what you are parroting here about the supposed total superiority of Rafale over Su-30 MKI instead his reply has a lot of respect for the fighter. Further you were chanting about the "much lower RCS" of Rafale so that meant it would have a huge advantage in BVR engagements but interestingly the Rafale pilot says that

Vinage says the strength of the Rafale lies in the dogfight. "We can hit swiftly when aircraft are close up. Weaponization is lethal. Not too many aircraft can do the dogfight as well as the Rafale."

and even the quote you posted has,

Vinage said some of his best moments in flying were during the Indo-French exercises. "We went in with the Rafale and IAF came in with the Su-30. That's when we got a good look at the aircraft. The first thought that came to my mind was power -- Su-30 is about power and being powerful. But for the dogfight, I'd go for the Rafale."

If I am not wrong the tilt in airforces world over is towards BVR engagement and I think that's why you brought up the RCS point. If you were right then the French pilot wouldn't have failed to point that out because that surely would have been a huge advantage for Rafale but the pilot only talks about dogfights and how Rafale is pretty good at it (according to him).

So all in all your saying that,

There is plenty of data on the net and on this forum which alludes to the superiority of the Rafale in every department.

is still an untested theory and "net/forum talk" only. If you want to continue with your theory please take this to aviation thread I will catch up with you there lets leave this thread for LCA.

[eklavya]

^ This picture alone does not say much ... you don't know what were the engagement rules. This is one of the marketing tricks. But I don't deny the fact that IAF selected it as one of two best and suitable plane for Indian requirements. Yes, it is very capable fighter but not super dumper that we can't live without.

So, the F-22 was posing for some marketing shots

[Philip]

Let me tell you what a veteran British pilot touting the Eurofighter said about dogfighting when the MMRCA contest was on and the Rafale had yet to be chosen.He had flown almost every high performance combat aircraft including the German MIG-29s."Nothing flies like the MIG-35" ,acknowledging its superiority,but said that the Typhoon's ,radar,avionics systems,cockpit package for the pilot was the best.From available info,the SU-30 has a far more powerful radar than the Rafale and will detect it first,giving it the BVR edge.Secondly,we have all seen at Aero-India's the amazing BVR capability of the Flanker which will be put to good use in any dogfight.As for EW systems of the rivals,only an actual conflict will determine which is best.When the IAF get the Rafale,they will be able to evaluate both.Many years ago, the MIG-29 won every dogfight that it undertook with the M-2000,stunning the IAF.AM Masand had an excellent article about this in an old VAYU.

[eklavya]

So all in all your saying that,

There is plenty of data on the net and on this forum which alludes to the superiority of the Rafale in every department.

is still an untested theory and "net/forum talk" only. If you want to continue with your theory please take this to aviation thread I will catch up with you there lets leave this thread for LCA.

The RAF chief said in 2011 that the Typhoons beat the Su-30MKI. His words were "well, they lost".

http://twocircles.net/2011jul24/british ... cises.html

And, the superiority of the Rafale vs the Typhoon is laid out in some detail here (report signed by the Swiss Air Force chief):

http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale/pdf/12332.pdf

BVR depends a lot on whether AWACS are being used (if they are, fighter can keep its own radar off), vulnerability of radar/missiles/datalink to jamming, thermal signature, efficiency of optronics, etc. The Su-30 has a larger RCS (maybe 30 to 50+ times more than Rafale) and higher thermal signature, the Rafale's AESA radar has a lower probability of intercept and lower vulnerability to jamming, the METEOR will be less vulnerable to jamming, etc. There's no point fretting about it, we need this capability to whip the PLAAF Su-27/Su-30/J-10/J-11/etc.

[abhik]

Many years ago, the MIG-29 won every dogfight that it undertook with the M-2000,stunning the IAF.AM Masand had an excellent article about this in an old VAYU.

Yet they had to bite the dust when it came to actual combat against modern western fighters. As a poster said earlier the outcome of war is not decided on specifications of weapons, it is not a game of top trumps. It is indeed sad to see posters falling for Rafale's marketing BS hook, line and sinker.

[Brando]

The RAF chief said in 2011 that the Typhoons beat the Su-30MKI. His words were "well, they lost".

That's total bull considering that both the aircraft were firstly operating in combined teams and second the Su-30mki's were flow by a mix of rookie and veteran pilots while the RAF brought only their highly experienced pilots so they could demonstrate how "superior" their Typhoon was when India was getting ready to shell out $10-$20 billion on a new fighter purchase. Despite this - the IAF wasn't too impressed.

Pure physics dictates that the Su-30MKI flies higher, flies faster, flies farther and its 3D thrust vectoring and canards offer it superior WVR maneuverability. While the Typhoon has neither AESA nor Meteor to "beat" the MKI. The so called "High OFF boresight" capability (which the Su-30 also has!) and other ridiculous assertions about alleged Typhoon superiority are supported by either the Americans or anybody else who has gone up against the RAF or Luftwaffe Typhoons.

Today we even have delusional RAF pilots and Euro-fighter shills who claim that a non-stealthy 4th generation Eurofighter Typhoon that can't hit a broad side of a barn in an A2G role or carry out any other role apart from A2A like Recon, SEAD etc with any degree of competence is capable of standing toe-to-toe with the Lockheed F-22 Raptor ! (http://theaviationist.com/2013/02/21/ra ... yphoon-us/) Apparently, in their world - Thrust vectoring is irrelevant, a lack of an AESA is irrelevant, the lack of stealth is irrelevant and so on....

This kind of childish delusions by the RAF only make the American Raptor pilots roll their eyes and laugh at them. But unlike the Raptor pilots or the people at Lockheed, the RAF and Eurofighter have to try as hard as possible to sell their very expensive and very limited fighter aircraft as much as possible because not many people are buying them and the parent nations UK, Germany etc can't afford them.

[Singha]

> Pure physics dictates that the Su-30MKI flies higher, flies faster

not sure about loaded t:w but empty , the EF on paper has a superior T:W and also higher speed and ceiling.

there was a table posted here once. after the raptor, it was the Su35BM and the EF that were #2 and #3 in T:W

the Flanker family wing design is optimized for transonic speed iirc while the F-15 for higher supersonic. the deltas like EF/M2K seem to top out around M2.2

[Brando]

^^ T:W is only one consideration and it's relevance is more crucial to acceleration than top speed.

The top speed achieved by the Su-27/30 airframe is Mach 2.3 while the F-15D/E was Mach 2.5 in the 1990s at altitude. The Eurofighter claims it can do Mach 2.2+ but then again has never taken the RAF speed record of Mach 2.3+ that was achieved with the RAF English Electric Lightening. As to ceiling, the Eurofighter claims a "static" ceiling 55,000ft with and "absolute" ceiling of 65,000 ft compared to the Su-27/30 airframe that has a "static" ceiling of ~60,000ft with an "absolute" ceiling of 72,000ft. [http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/su27.htm ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighte ... ifications ; http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su30mk/lth/]

The Su-30MKI may be slower than a Su-27B or a Su35 due to the canards and extra seat but even then at the Typhoon's Mach 2.2 at 55,000ft, the Su-30MKI would get M1.9 at 56,800ft giving the Su-30 the superior position where it can translate its altitude into speed while the Typhoon looses speed to achieve altitude to meet the MKI. A single seat Su-27B or a Su-35 would have the upper hand on the RAF's pride and joy every time.

[member_26622]

This is an LCA forum so please disengage from replying to the RAFALE marketing machine....signs of desperation.

India is not going to be the ATM for bankrolling european 5th gen fighter development.

[Philip]

The "Wizards of Oz",Kopp and co., have repeatedly in their evaluation of frontline combat aircraft for the Oz air force,said that he Eurocanards cannot compare with the Flanker,esp. with the to be upgraded Super-Flankers and SU-35s.While they wait for the JSF to arrive,which they feel is the best aircraft for them,they are wisely spending their scarce money on limited qtys. of "more of the same",F-18SHs.No disrespect to the expensive Rafale,but in the future,it will be overshadowed by newer 5th-gen aircraft and will have a tough time in keeping at bay upgraded 4++ aircraft too.As has been clearly spelt out,the IAF wished to diversify its procurement ,not totally dependent upon Russia,as it suffered a lot after the fall of the USSR when spares and support became a major problem.The buying of MIG spares from diverse sources ,with questionable quality was one factor leading to the many crashes of MIG-21s in particular.

Hopefully,this problem should not arise when the LCA is in series production.Components should right now be outsourced to Indian pvt. industry and not solely to HAL.If the LCA is going to depend entirely upon HAL for its spares and support,we are going to face further turbulence,as HAL's quality control has been a problem in the past.Since we now have definite deadlines drawn in the sand,the production of essential spares should begin right now if the aircraft is to be inducted as early as Sept. 2013 according to our new DRDO chief.

[Singha]

rafale will have a tough time vs the money pouring into F-18SH , PAKFA and F-15++ pgms. more so for EF.

it does not look like airframe that can take the fight to the fast LO types schedule to come online around 2025 like J30.

[Sagar G]

Eklavya my reply is in aviation thread.

[ramana]

nik, Do me a favor and report the posts that dont belong to this thread. And the thread they should go into.


Thanks,ramana

[suryag]

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2182 Test Flights Successfully. (31-May-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-133,LSP4-80,LSP5-173,LSP7-38,NP1-4,LSP8-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2197 Test Flights Successfully. (12-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-136,LSP4-81,LSP5-178,LSP7-43,NP1-4,LSP8-5)

[merlin]

Livefist reports on the LCA Mk-1. Important points are

1. Apart from a host of test parameters -- at least 1,250 test points, according to the latest progress review report -- that need to be met, the Tejas needs a new radome (reported first on Livefist), since the current one has deficient electromagnetic performance, isn't fully lightning protected and allows a measure of rainwater ingress, causing the Israeli multimode radar to go glitchy. The parameters that need clearance for IOC-2 include wake penetration, lightning clearance, all-weather clearance among a host of others. My sources indicate to me that all-weather clearance has been achieved, not the other two.

Wake penetration not done yet may indicate not enough confidence in control laws to attempt this. We can only speculate since HAL/ADA seem to have completely clamped down on news about test points, etc.

2. Parameters such as handling/speed at low altitudes and sustained turn rate have been sorted out to the satisfaction of the IAF as far as the Mk.1 airframe is concerned.

3. The bridge between IOC-2 and FOC will include the following: integration of beyond visual range weapons, gun, rockets, guided and unguided bombs, and the further expansion of its flight envelope to -3.5 to 8G (-2 to 6G for IOC-2) and 24-degrees angle of attack (22 for IOC-2).

Tejas has already been flow atleast once to +8G, so meeting 8G should not be a problem. But I'm not sure how far from 22 deg AoA which is an IOC-2 target, the Tejas is currently at.

[Nick_S]

The Su-30 has a larger RCS (maybe 30 to 50+ times more than Rafale)

Lol... you have been smoking some heavy stuff.

Can we please return to the topic?

[Kartik]

Tejas has already been flow atleast once to +8G, so meeting 8G should not be a problem. But I'm not sure how far from 22 deg AoA which is an IOC-2 target, the Tejas is currently at.

It flew at +6Gs at AeroIndia itself and the 22 deg alpha has also been achieved. Both confirmations from Cmde Maolankar at AI-'13.

[suryag]

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2197 Test Flights Successfully. (12-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-136,LSP4-81,LSP5-178,LSP7-43,NP1-4,LSP8-5)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2199 Test Flights Successfully. (13-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-136,LSP4-82,LSP5-178,LSP7-43,NP1-4,LSP8-6)

[Singha]

without wake penetration passing, I dont think they can even try AAR off the Midas or fly close escort missions for heavies like the phalcons, c130j or midas .

[merlin]

Tejas has already been flow atleast once to +8G, so meeting 8G should not be a problem. But I'm not sure how far from 22 deg AoA which is an IOC-2 target, the Tejas is currently at.

It flew at +6Gs at AeroIndia itself and the 22 deg alpha has also been achieved. Both confirmations from Cmde Maolankar at AI-'13.

At this AI it must have flown at +6G but at the one prior to this one it did hit +8G (not authorized, so must have been done accidently).

If 22 alpha has been reached then the only one blocking IOC-2 must be wake penetration and lightning protection.

[hanumadu]

First LCA Tejas Mk.2 Prototype Next Year?

[eklavya]

The Su-30 has a larger RCS (maybe 30 to 50+ times more than Rafale)

Lol... you have been smoking some heavy stuff.

Can we please return to the topic?

Rafale 0.1-0.3 m2
Su-30 10-15 m2

[Sagar G]

Aah... that explains the wide difference in perspectives on the forum. Our definitions of success are quite different. For you, its a "khujli generation" criterion; for some of us, its a "sortie generation by production article" criterion.

Aah...the undeniable upperhand in understanding context I give in.

"Arunachalam, right, LCA.".. these 3 words together in one sentence! In 201x, no less !!! Didn't think that was possible after the 90s that saw his super-salesmanship completely exposed and the likes of Dr. Kalam having had to resuscitate DRDO's credibility.

Aree you also give character certificates, multi-role capabilities you have.

[Ramius]

@eklavya where did you get those rcs numbers?

just checked Google chacha on the rcs numbers. Sorry for posting this in dhaga. Many sources do claim the numbers posted above(AW&T circa 1999)