Phone, Tablet and Gizmo Thread #0x02

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Jun 2013 01:40

sounds like we are moving into next generation device and gadgets integration into car and automobile systems, it is critical now for isolation of all critical solutions, and connect them to a automobile black-box and record everything including voice, video, sensor inputs, and status (speed, approach, etc).. this can be vital for the future court systems.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jun 2013 04:18

Hot! First images of the Samsung Galaxy NX mirrorless system camera!
I'm not sure of not having manual controls for shutter speed and aperture. It depends on how the touchscreen is implemented.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 18 Jun 2013 08:01

^^^is that your next point & shoot camera?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jun 2013 10:58

I had already predicted that android would take over all DSLRs eventually vs the mish mash of proprietary vendor firmware and image management tools. with most of the heavy lifting done by the image processors and fast copy pipeline into the SD card, even a smartphone grade chipset is more than enough to manage a DSLR smartly and open up a world of apps and widgets which SonCanikon can crowdsource.

here's to rooting and jailbreaking the EOS-1

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 18 Jun 2013 11:49

^^^Its much more cost effective to use a general purpose OS and chipset from a development, maintenance and ODM manufacturing perspective. Though I certainly hope they don't go crazy with functionality and start putting all sorts of gestures into the camera like Sammy does with its GSx phunwas. Otherwise dropping your camera by accident may result in some photu of G/SHQ's face accidentally getting tagged as 'mush shot'.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 18 Jun 2013 16:39

Mort Walker wrote:
Intel has a lot of assets in R&D and fab, so they are the proverbial 700 pound gorilla even though they started late to get their mobile SoCs in significant numbers for the CE industry. ARM is purely an intellectual property company where Sammy, QCOM, Apple and others have licensed ARM architecture cores in their SoCs. TSMC is primarily a fab house and I didn't think they designed their own SoCs. AAPL has invested a lot of money in TSMC to bring them up to production for 14nm. There aren't any real parallels to Intel with the exception of AMD, but they are behind in mobile SoCs.

The real question is how power efficient are the ATOMs in comparison to SoCs with ARM architecture cores?

Mort-ji
Failed to follow you.
That _is_ a comparison of SoCs no?
Clovertrail+ is a ATOM too.
Not sure what you mean .

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 18 Jun 2013 16:45

So this China long march I have the biggest ding dong fastest supercomputer. What will they use it for?
Will the investment + price of running it justify its development?
Serious question.
Can anyone give an example of a typical operation that this supercomputer does? A code fragment maybe?
How does it handle reading and writing data ( i.e. IO ) ?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jun 2013 19:29

Neela wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
Intel has a lot of assets in R&D and fab, so they are the proverbial 700 pound gorilla even though they started late to get their mobile SoCs in significant numbers for the CE industry. ARM is purely an intellectual property company where Sammy, QCOM, Apple and others have licensed ARM architecture cores in their SoCs. TSMC is primarily a fab house and I didn't think they designed their own SoCs. AAPL has invested a lot of money in TSMC to bring them up to production for 14nm. There aren't any real parallels to Intel with the exception of AMD, but they are behind in mobile SoCs.

The real question is how power efficient are the ATOMs in comparison to SoCs with ARM architecture cores?
Mort-ji
Failed to follow you.
That _is_ a comparison of SoCs no?
Clovertrail+ is a ATOM too.
Not sure what you mean .

Yes, Clovertrail is part of ATOM, and my question is how power efficient are the new ATOM in comparison with Exynos, Snapdragon, AX and Tegra? I'm sure the ATOM is great for performance, but power consumption for battery life is what many are concerned about.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jun 2013 19:35

Singha wrote:I had already predicted that android would take over all DSLRs eventually vs the mish mash of proprietary vendor firmware and image management tools. with most of the heavy lifting done by the image processors and fast copy pipeline into the SD card, even a smartphone grade chipset is more than enough to manage a DSLR smartly and open up a world of apps and widgets which SonCanikon can crowdsource.

here's to rooting and jailbreaking the EOS-1

Hacking of Canon's EOS DSLRs has already happened with what is known as Magic Lantern firmware that you can download, but Canon has already said that if you tinker with camera firmware, then warranty is void. Camera's are for taking pictures, they are not $300-$400 toys, but useful tools that people spend tens of thousands on, so most people who buy an EOS-1 will not be interested in voiding a warranty on an $8K body.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jun 2013 19:46

Raja Bose wrote:^^^is that your next point & shoot camera?

Point & shoot, or more correctly compact mirror-less camera, is where the future is in this segment.
To answer your question, no, not with that lens. I prefer the 18-55 OIS lens shown up front in the picture below.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 18 Jun 2013 20:33

Pancakes are the answer to mirror-less systems. What is the use of removing the mirror/prism assembly if you still have to stick a long lens in front of it. Most shooting will be in the wide to 250mm range anyway. The canon 6D already has wifi to talk to a smartphone and transmit images. You can shoot from the smartphone after setting up your camera. Apps on the camera itself to direct upload to facebook is only the next step. I don't think they'll go to the extent of putting a simcard into it for direct data transfer but who knows

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jun 2013 20:45

Pancakes are nice, but sometimes you need a zoom lens of 3-5 times. The micro 4/3 system is an open one, but only Panasonic and Olympus have signed up to it. The Oly EP5 and new Panny GF-6 both with 14-42 m4/3 look very promising with many DSLR capabilities and compact to carry.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 18 Jun 2013 20:47

Samsung galaxy camera already has Cellular + GPS + WIFI .

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jun 2013 20:51

^^^Not with an APS-C sensor and interchangeable lenses.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 18 Jun 2013 22:16

Mortji, that article says this galaxy nx has an apsc sensor similar to sony's nex range.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 18 Jun 2013 22:19

Mort Walker wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:^^^is that your next point & shoot camera?
Point & shoot, or more correctly compact mirror-less camera, is where the future is in this segment.

Good luck convincing people who don't want to carry a much slimmer P&S today with their smartphone, to carry something much larger like this. All I see happening is that a lot of folks who used to go for a TFTA DSLR becoz they had nothing in between will now buy these. For 80-90% of the abduls who are not photography hobbyists and used to tote around a P&S to take photos of holiday sights and making rude gestures in front of famous landmarks, their smartphone is now the P&S which makes P&S go down the path of the PND into Dodo land.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jun 2013 22:53

Prasad wrote:Mortji, that article says this galaxy nx has an apsc sensor similar to sony's nex range.

Yes, that is right, but so far Sammy's other Galaxy camera have had smaller sensors.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jun 2013 23:12

Raja Bose wrote: Good luck convincing people who don't want to carry a much slimmer P&S today with their smartphone, to carry something much larger like this. All I see happening is that a lot of folks who used to go for a TFTA DSLR becoz they had nothing in between will now buy these. For 80-90% of the abduls who are not photography hobbyists and used to tote around a P&S to take photos of holiday sights and making rude gestures in front of famous landmarks, their smartphone is now the P&S which makes P&S go down the path of the PND into Dodo land.

Dear Sir,

Haven't we been down this road before? PND functions were replaced by smart phones because everything they did was replaced by the smart phone and it was better than the PND. Road information updates, voice navigation, landmark info and LBS are all done better on smart phones. PNDs have been relegated to very small niche markets. This comparison is not true for photographic capability. The only advantage the smart phone will have is that you don't have to carry 2 devices, yes that may be big deal for many, but those who want a little better photos will have to take 2 devices.

The Samsung NX with APS-C sensor and interchangeable lenses is a light weight option to a DSLR. With a pancake lens, I can put it in a jacket pocket or purse. As I said before, if you want something really small, cheap and fast look at the Panasonic LX7, Canon S110, and Fujifilm XF1.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 18 Jun 2013 23:46

Mort Walker wrote:PND functions were replaced by smart phones because everything they did was replaced by the smart phone and it was better than the PND. Road information updates, voice navigation, landmark info and LBS are all done better on smart phones. PNDs have been relegated to very small niche markets. This comparison is not true for photographic capability. The only advantage the smart phone will have is that you don't have to carry 2 devices, yes that may be big deal for many, but those who want a little better photos will have to take 2 devices.

How many are those? Not that many it seems! The delta is just not large enough to make sense for most people. That's why P&S is on its way to becoming a niche just like a PND. Standalone PND units have much better GPS reception than smartphones yet people discarded them. Same thing is with the standalone P&S camera's "little better" photographic capability. In fact all the arguments you make above against a PND fits very neatly against a P&S camera too - word for word.

Just becoz you are a photography hobbyist don't assume the most of the world really cares about it as much as you do. For them photography is a tool/time-pass/memory aid not a passion. Just like you have hardcore abduls who swear by their Garmin PNDs even today, you will always have hardcore photography abduls. But for most of the mango abduls, they don't give 2 $hits about it - convenience trumps everything else.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 19 Jun 2013 01:49

Raja Bose wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:PND functions were replaced by smart phones because everything they did was replaced by the smart phone and it was better than the PND. Road information updates, voice navigation, landmark info and LBS are all done better on smart phones. PNDs have been relegated to very small niche markets. This comparison is not true for photographic capability. The only advantage the smart phone will have is that you don't have to carry 2 devices, yes that may be big deal for many, but those who want a little better photos will have to take 2 devices.
How many are those? Not that many it seems! .

This is like saying why make the Canon 1Dx when not many are going to buy them. Every product has its own market.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 19 Jun 2013 02:59

^^^everything has a market. Even niche is a market. Otherwise they wouldn't make the product. Even PNDs and serial cables have a market.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 19 Jun 2013 03:46

PND's won't get completely replaced till Chacha and Appil start providing full-fledged offline navigation like Nokia maps unlike their half-assed approach right now. I can't imagine being at the mercy of the AT&T data network to find my way around rural massaland.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 19 Jun 2013 04:02

Raja Bose wrote:^^^everything has a market. Even niche is a market. Otherwise they wouldn't make the product. Even PNDs and serial cables have a market.

Wah Wah Sahib! Bhoth khub aap ne bola. Aap ka phunwa jeevath rehe. Bandar ko adrhak (ginger) ka swad kya pata?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 19 Jun 2013 04:04

Jobs had a difficult task, but most of us, including me, aren't able to grasp the intersection of art and technology.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 19 Jun 2013 04:13

Mort Walker wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:^^^everything has a market. Even niche is a market. Otherwise they wouldn't make the product. Even PNDs and serial cables have a market.

Wah Wah Sahib! Bhoth khub aap ne bola. Aap ka phunwa jeevath rehe. Bandar ko adrhak (ginger) ka swad kya pata?

Arrey babua, zara chashma laga ke to dekh - 90% duniya hi bandar hai - market inhi ke kabze mein hai!

Mort Walker wrote:Jobs had a difficult task, but most of us, including me, aren't able to grasp the intersection of art and technology.

You know the quote....you can take a donkey to the well but can't make it drink....

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 19 Jun 2013 04:30

Arre mere pyare yaar. Apan log to dus percenti hain! Nahi to yea phorum me kyon aatain hain? Is dunya mein sau crore aadmi/aurat/bachai log hoshyar phunwa istimal kartai hain. Aur dus crore photo ke pasand hain.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 19 Jun 2013 04:40

Arrey tau! Woh dus percenti ko sirf maal thoda hi bechna hai. Phir to sunroof lever ka shikaar ho jawe!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2013 06:48

there are huge numbers of people who care for better photos & photography in general looking at the number and membership of photography forums on the web.

smartphone mullahs can preach the all-encompassing nature of their religion all they want from the tallest marbled minaret in the souk and demand faithfool pray 10 times a day, but many of us are not selling out and going nowhere from DSLRs and 'proper' P&S cams.

only the really high end smartphones have passable cams now...which means only subsidized cornfed american munnas on the 2 yr plan and $150 down get to use them and replace them often. 5 billion people are out of that sugary loop.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 19 Jun 2013 07:30

Singha wrote: only the really high end smartphones have passable cams now

They are way better than passable when compared to an average P&S. The technology is all there now its upto commoditization. And that is inevitable.

Singha wrote:there are huge numbers of people who care for better photos & photography in general looking at the number and membership of photography forums on the web.

Compared to the vast majority who have switched exclusively to phones for taking pics, those numbers are miniscule. Last time during India visit, I could rarely find people even in the phata chappal feature phone wielding category who were using a P&S for taking pics despite the facts those phones suck at taking pics compared to even a cheap P&S - that is why I said earlier that convenience trumps all for most of the abduls. It surprised even me though I was expecting the trend.

Writing on the wall is clear, hardcore photochori munnas prepare to barricade yourself in the hills and defend the faith! Remember Sparta! Remember Alamo! Remember Dacca! Remember Quaid Post!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2013 07:42

sure compared to 5 billion people with a cellphone, 500 mil might be minuscule. thats twice the pop of the USA.

if you look at the DSLR/SLR types for decades they have been the most expensive kit and people have kept on investing in improving them because profit margins are high...what is the profit margin on a phone camera module that is expected to serve 2 yrs before the phone gets junked. zero ? 3% ?

even with a bigger volume it will be hard to make any money on these phones. neither is there room to sell costly lenses.

they will match at best effort the low end of the P&S but get destroyed by the better P&S which are dime a dozen now. DSLRs will destroy them at standoff range.

we are not at all barricading ourself anywhere. infact you might go over to photosig.com and compare the shot quality (average) to any smartphone photo forums you find...and remember from the mid-P&S to DSLR they all produce pretty good pix....while smartphone cams maybe 5% of such phones have good cams rest are junk.

smartphone cams are like the love jihad...hoping to win by sheer numbers and demographic war. first produce something of quality to wow the world and then demand followers. a mass of jihadis wielding meat cleavers who cannot spell 'aperture' running around shouting Allahuakbar does not impress a guy with a machine gun

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 19 Jun 2013 07:47

Singha wrote:there are huge numbers of people who care for better photos & photography in general looking at the number and membership of photography forums on the web.

smartphone mullahs can preach the all-encompassing nature of their religion all they want from the tallest marbled minaret in the souk and demand faithfool pray 10 times a day, but many of us are not selling out and going nowhere from DSLRs and 'proper' P&S cams.

only the really high end smartphones have passable cams now...which means only subsidized cornfed american munnas on the 2 yr plan and $150 down get to use them and replace them often. 5 billion people are out of that sugary loop.

Definitely. There are more and more people who are getting in to mirror-less compact cameras than ever before as prices are getting better along with minimal shutter lag and better lenses. In fact, they are selling and that is why even Sammy is getting in to the game with an interchangeable lens compact.

See one of my heroes here who took this with his $18K Canon C100 body with interchangeable EOS mount lens video camera. A very nice fellow and absolute gentleman who has passion for what he believes in. Amazing video and a must watch in HD.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2013 07:50

wah wah *drools and bows down to that rig* looks like a javelin ATGM launcher.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 19 Jun 2013 08:23

Singha wrote:sure compared to 5 billion people with a cellphone, 500 mil might be minuscule. thats twice the pop of the USA.

if you look at the DSLR/SLR types for decades they have been the most expensive kit and people have kept on investing in improving them because profit margins are high...what is the profit margin on a phone camera module that is expected to serve 2 yrs before the phone gets junked. zero ? 3% ? even with a bigger volume it will be hard to make any money on these phones. neither is there room to sell costly lenses.

they will match at best effort the low end of the P&S but get destroyed by the better P&S which are dime a dozen now. DSLRs will destroy them at standoff range.

we are not at all barricading ourself anywhere. infact you might go over to photosig.com and compare the shot quality (average) to any smartphone photo forums you find...and remember from the mid-P&S to DSLR they all produce pretty good pix....while smartphone cams maybe 5% of such phones have good cams rest are junk.

smartphone cams are like the love jihad...hoping to win by sheer numbers and demographic war. first produce something of quality to wow the world and then demand followers. a mass of jihadis wielding meat cleavers who cannot spell 'aperture' running around shouting Allahuakbar does not impress a guy with a machine gun

The top end camera phones today are already better than some $250.- P&S....commoditization ensures that will trickle down to the mango phones....its not a question of if, its a question of when. technology ensures that be it chi chi touch screens, dumbphones browsing the internet or something dumb like the ability to play Angry Birds. Numbers is what counts in the end.....why would a device manufacturer care about making the same margin off a camera module as a standalone camera? They don't need to. Expecting that is dumb and not how one makes money off devices. A standalone PND has higher margin than a phone's GPS module....it means nothing coz PNDs are niche now. Just like PND purists/survivor types one can argue about soup-e-riority of standalone cameras till kingdom come. In the end numbers win, purity of taste loses becoz every person who thinks their smartphone is a good enuff camera is one less person who buys a P&S - world is harsh and crass, what to do onlee

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 19 Jun 2013 08:24

Singhaji,

I would register on the India Wilds site as it has lots and lots of people who take wildlife photography all over India at the national parks. I've been there since the last 3 years and used their forums and help to visit parks shortly before the time we met. I was surprised lately as to how many people they now have on their site who are taking wild life photography with real cameras.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 19 Jun 2013 08:28

Raja Bose wrote:In the end numbers win, purity of taste loses becoz every person who thinks their smartphone is a good enuff camera is one less person who buys a P&S...

Aare hamare pyare Bose babu, log P&S migrate karke mirror-less main aagye hain! Jisko phunwa chaya tha wo tho laye liya hai, aur jisko camera chaya tha wo dusra laye liya hai.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 19 Jun 2013 08:41

Arrey Mortu-tauji, magar migration* puraney P&S se mirrorless main nahin ho raha hai na, yahin to samasya hai..... saala sasura P&S chod ke phunwa main ja raha hai. bhari gambhir samasya hai

bechare camera wale bhi apna DSP phunwa mein daalnay ke chakkar mein hai....ghor kalyug!!

* isko conversion rate kehte hain.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Jun 2013 08:47

I have an old relic fillum SLR/canon A2E. What should I do with it?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2013 10:35

I have made a technology museum of sorts at home one shelf of glass cupboard with my older panasonic, sony PS cams, my film N65 camera body, old camcorder...my old phones starting with the nokia 1110 are gone however as each time traded in to get a small discount on next purchase. I also sold my D70 for a good price so thats gone too - great camera for sure, one of the classics and pioneers of dslr world.
we used to have a russian mechanical cam (uncle gave it to me from some junkyard) and a hotshot110 pocket camera...I disassembled the russian kit as a kid but couldnt put it back together. the hotshot is still lurking somewhere - I hope to make a fortune selling it to collector in couple decades. uncle's film canon AE-1 from early 80s was also in my hands for a while but some miscreant took it away.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Jun 2013 10:38

pandyan, i have not touched it for eons.. last time i used it was some at least 10 years back. it must work, if battery is placed. but, i will test it out soon just fyi.

do you think it is of any use if it works? btw, it was the first camera with advanced eye controlled focus. i can focus by looking at the object, and get my shots pucka! tons of features.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2013 10:43

every new religion to gain adherents must do both or atleast one of two things
- the founder has to perform miracles and wow people - jesus, buddha, The Mahdi (both the original and new)... so the original ipad, ipod, iphone made clean breaks with existing quality and made people rush to the new glass temple
- thoroughly discredit the old priesthood / or the old order falls on its own due to infighting and higher level problems

I do not think phone cams have done either [a] or in a position to benefit from which has not occurred.

right now only a thin band of faithful huddles around the new temple, wrapping their "hate P&S" cloaks tighter around themselves to keep out the cold wind. miracles have been promised, the sun is supposed to emerge at midnight with the mark of the crab across it signifying the start of the revolution and overthrow of the old religion...but it hasnt happened ...

followers of the old religion sleep peacefully with a belly full of hot mutton curry and rice meantime....