Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jun 2013 06:57

MMRCA: a do or die contract for Dassault's military business

Dassault Aviation, the French maker of Rafale fighter jet which is in exclusive negotiations with the Indian ministry of defence for the $12 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender is facing rough weather at home.

In the latest strategic defence review carried out under the insistence of the French government, last month, France has capped the purchase of Rafale fighter jets to 225. Originally, the Rafale programme envisaged production of 320 aircraft for the French government but this was cut to 286 later and now to 225. Till date, only 180 of them have been ordered; all of them by France. The company is yet to find an export customer for its front-line fighter jet.

As a result, the cost of Rafale to France has climbed steadily. The French Senate assessment of the 2013 national defence budget pegs the total cost of the Rafale programme, including development expenses, to the French exchequer at €44.2 billion. Dividing the total programme cost with number of aircraft to be built i.e. 225 gives a per aircraft cost of €196.4 million or approx. Rs. 1,390 crore at today's exchange rate.

A cut to Rafale numbers for France poses a challenge to Dassault's military business which is mainly dependent on Rafale sales.

Given the situation, bagging MMRCA, which envisages purchase of 126 aircraft with an option for buying 63 more, is critical for Dassault. However, contrary to initial expectations of a quick contract signature, Dassault-MoD negotiations have dragged on for over a year.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jun 2013 07:14

So, they are trying to get the RoI from India I guess by bumping up the sticker price. We have seen how a $6b became $12b, and now nearing $20b. I'm pretty positive that France is capable of shooting its foot on the price alone, let alone tech transfer issue. it is called french pride.

The faster we look at building components, the faster we mature for self reliance.

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 25 Jun 2013 07:44

Rupee has surged from 52 to 58 against Dollar since the contract was tendered and signed.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jun 2013 08:46

The international currency rates do matter, no doubt.

However, what matters even more is what the native country/countries are willing to pay for upgrades. Outside of Germany, for the Eurofighter, the rest are all bankrupt and any newer technologies will have to be funded by nations that want it and of course the natives will benefit from it. Check out the Eurofighter and SA funds to integrate half the world!

France needs India.

Just the way Russia needed India (actually still needs India).

All those AF chiefs statements and this beat MKI and that beat MKI is all BS. What the French Rafale does, it does - good for them. But IF India gets the Rafale it will stand on its own - upgrades included.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jun 2013 09:32

rafale cost is escalating to f22 levels.

at this cost we might as well buy the raptor as a MRCA!

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 25 Jun 2013 10:07

SaiK wrote:So, they are trying to get the RoI from India I guess by bumping up the sticker price. We have seen how a $6b became $12b, and now nearing $20b. I'm pretty positive that France is capable of shooting its foot on the price alone, let alone tech transfer issue. it is called french pride.

The faster we look at building components, the faster we mature for self reliance.

Rafale was L1. In case you need reminding, your American fighters did not make the technical cut.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 25 Jun 2013 10:10

Singha wrote:rafale cost is escalating to f22 levels.

at this cost we might as well buy the raptor as a MRCA!

The exchange rate escalation applies to all imported equipment, not just equipment imported from France. Has the Rafale price offer changed from the offer that resulted in it being selected as L1? There is no information to say it has.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 25 Jun 2013 10:10

With the recent natural disasters and Rupee to Euro decline of ~15% since the selection, the Rafale is becoming too expensive for India. The procurement process is taking too long. Just end it and get 100 more Su-30MKI. Until then ramp up the LCA production.
I'd be willing to bet that the Finance Ministry will object to such a large one-time expenditure and may ask to spread the purchase over several years.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 25 Jun 2013 10:14

NRao wrote:All those AF chiefs statements and this beat MKI and that beat MKI is all BS. What the French Rafale does, it does - good for them. But IF India gets the Rafale it will stand on its own - upgrades included.

Those AF chiefs are way more credible than anyone posting on this forum, including yourself. India WILL get the Rafale, and the US and Russia and their myriad apologists can do nothing about it.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 25 Jun 2013 10:17

eklavya wrote:India WILL get the Rafale, and the US and Russia and their myriad apologists can do nothing about it.

You are probably right, but it will happen early in 2014 with elections coming later in the year.

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 25 Jun 2013 10:28

eklavya wrote:Rafale was L1. In case you need reminding, your American fighters did not make the technical cut.

Can you conform if Rafale was L1 among the final two bidders or it was L1 among all the 6 bidders?

Texafr · Post by **Texafr** » 25 Jun 2013 10:48

Rafale can easily take care of old aircraft like F-16 : http://youtu.be/2dAmEL6fhmg
But Typhoon struggles against this outdated plane : http://youtu.be/RAedQ7FMiKo

And this is not an isolated incident as Pakistani F-16s easily and soundly defeated RAF Eurofighter Typhoons during exercise Anatolian Eagle a few years ago.
This year again, bad news again, Pakistani pilots flying F-16s MLU easily defeated RSAF Typhoons. PAF pilots can fly circles around Typhoons.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jun 2013 10:56

PAF pilots can fly circles around Typhoon.

Must be the old British Typhoon
http://www.timemoneyandblood.com/images ... yphoon.jpg

koti · Post by **koti** » 25 Jun 2013 11:05

Texafr wrote:Rafale can easily take care of old aircraft like F-16 : http://youtu.be/2dAmEL6fhmg
But Typhoon struggles against this outdated plane : http://youtu.be/RAedQ7FMiKo

And this is not an isolated incident as Pakistani F-16s easily and soundly defeated RAF Eurofighter Typhoons during exercise Anatolian Eagle a few years ago.
This year again, bad news again, Pakistani pilots flying F-16s MLU easily defeated RSAF Typhoons. PAF pilots can fly circles around Typhoons.

Extremely offtopic....
Can anyone explain what all those lines and sounds mean? Links are also appreciated....
There is a line that curves showing target path(??)
There a rectangular box that represents target plane location(???)And there are also circular shapes(??)
You may respond in the newby thread if you like...
Thank you.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jun 2013 17:22

eklavya wrote:
SaiK wrote:So, they are trying to get the RoI from India I guess by bumping up the sticker price. We have seen how a $6b became $12b, and now nearing $20b. I'm pretty positive that France is capable of shooting its foot on the price alone, let alone tech transfer issue. it is called french pride.

The faster we look at building components, the faster we mature for self reliance.
Rafale was L1. In case you need reminding, your American fighters did not make the technical cut.

abhey! appun ka phighter LCA++ hoga!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jun 2013 17:49

Seems PAF F-16MLU beating Typhoon came from Alan Warner twitter

https://twitter.com/warnesyworld

Alan Warnes ‏@warnesyworld

According to my sources, PAF were asked to fly Red and Blue Air. The Saudi Typhoon CO was allegedly so hacked off he didn't go to debrief...

Reliable sources tell me the Pak AF's new F-16 MLUs consistently beat Saudi Eagles and Typhoons during manoeuvres in Taif, RSA in May.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 25 Jun 2013 17:58

[quote="Austin"]Seems PAF F-16MLU beating Typhoon came from Alan Warner twitter

https://twitter.com/warnesyworld

Alan Warnes ‏@warnesyworld

"According to my sources, PAF were asked to fly Red and Blue Air. The Saudi Typhoon CO was allegedly so hacked off he didn't go to debrief...

Reliable sources tell me the Pak AF's new F-16 MLUs consistently beat Saudi Eagles and Typhoons during manoeuvres in Taif, RSA in May."[quote]

Why are we overlooking the most likely explanation for all this ? That the Saudis are lousy pilots. Whereas the Pakis, for all their other attributes, have a quasi-professional armed force.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jun 2013 18:03

Austin wrote:Seems PAF F-16MLU beating Typhoon came from Alan Warner twitter

https://twitter.com/warnesyworld

Alan Warnes ‏@warnesyworld

According to my sources, PAF were asked to fly Red and Blue Air. The Saudi Typhoon CO was allegedly so hacked off he didn't go to debrief...

Reliable sources tell me the Pak AF's new F-16 MLUs consistently beat Saudi Eagles and Typhoons during manoeuvres in Taif, RSA in May.

IF true, it proves the point. And this is not even the Paki CAS. All that stuff about Brit CAS, etc, ............... keep a big bag of salt. On playgrounds the Euro/Raffy might be better.

Also, the Raffy is a great plane, BUT not if it comes in 2018+, at a cost of some $20 billion. Now, at $10 billion it is fine. At some point the cost and when it comes will tilt the balance the other way.

Besides I am still very concerned about what the native countries are planning to do. I am not too happy what happened in the case of the Russians, the only consolation I have is that it did not cost as much (FGFA may tilt that arg).

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jun 2013 18:24

That the Saudis are lousy pilots. Whereas the Pakis, for all their other attributes, have a quasi-professional armed force.

That logic should have been applied to all such meets.

Which would render most such meets rather useless.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 25 Jun 2013 21:15

Rafales to touch Indian sky in 2016.

With the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Dassault Aviation ironing out differences over the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), the supply of the Rafale aircraft is expected to begin in 2016-17.

According to a report in US-based Defense Update — a portal on military technology and defence news — French defence minister Jean-Yves Drain will visit India soon to conclude the MMRCA contract so that the supply of the first batch of aircraft can begin in 2016-17.

During the on-going Paris Air Show, HAL brass met with the top executives of Dassault Aviation to review the progress of the ongoing projects. “Both the teams expressed satisfaction on the work already achieved by the integrated teams and renewed their commitment towards successful completion of the various projects,” said a recent statement from HAL.

India’s plan to buy 126 fighter-jets from Dassault has been delayed even though the company won the fiercely fought bid two years ago. There have been reports that the deal has been delayed as Dassault and the government has not been able to finalise the role of HAL in the deal.

According to the deal, Dassault will provide 18 of the 126 aircraft in fly-away condition and the remaining are to be manufactured by the HAL. Media reports have stated that Dassault Aviation wants two contracts to be signed, one for the aircraft manufactured by it and another for the aircraft to be build by the HAL.

That apart, in the past, the French aircraft manufacturer has also expressed doubts over the technological and manufacturing capability of the HAL.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 26 Jun 2013 06:05

Avarachan wrote:
eklavya wrote:
[quote="Karan M"
Unlike you, many of us have the liberty of speaking to professional fighter pilots, at public events, who operate the Su-30MKI and not relying on selective conjecture or publicity material about what salesmen desperate to sell their wares, claim.
[/quote

Your statement is silly to say the least. No fighter pilot would tell some spotty shifty nosey character at an airshow anything worth knowing.
Eklavya, I've reported your post to the mods. Karan M is one of the most respected posters on BR: watch your tone.

Why are people ganging up on a decent fellow with a valid opinion ? He has been abused left Nd right for having a well researched opinion with references. if you don't like don't read it or provide your own view.

Raffy and euro fighter will both out do mki in most of the dog and BVR fights. Both these aircrafts are lot more modern and efficient than the brute power hulk we have got. Except these two air craft only 5 th gen aircrafts can bother mki, all other things being equal.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 26 Jun 2013 06:13

ranji wrote:
eklavya wrote:Rafale was L1. In case you need reminding, your American fighters did not make the technical cut.
Can you conform if Rafale was L1 among the final two bidders or it was L1 among all the 6 bidders?

Only two bids were opened. Raffy was L1 on over all cost of ownership

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Jun 2013 07:01

Katare sahib, I think his opinions are very valid.. but I feel that he engages with people at a higher degree of personalization. e.g: using the words like " your fighter, my fighter, etc." I think we can avoid on that, and focus on the subject matter points within thread objectives.

/It takes two hands to clap.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Jun 2013 07:41

Katare wrote: Why are people ganging up on a decent fellow with a valid opinion ? He has been abused left Nd right for having a well researched opinion with references. if you don't like don't read it or provide your own view.

Raffy and euro fighter will both out do mki in most of the dog and BVR fights. Both these aircrafts are lot more modern and efficient than the brute power hulk we have got. Except these two air craft only 5 th gen aircrafts can bother mki, all other things being equal.

Anyone is entitled to an opinion, even if it is debatably skewed.

But obnoxiousness? Dunno.

I do not think that the Raffy nor the Euro will outdo an MKI piloted by the IAF. Not possible. As good as they are. Recall the IAF Jags that lost their Japanese cover and yet made it and back in Alaska? No Brit CAS was there I assume to make that observation.

Yikes.

It is a lot more than the Gen of a plane.

I will take the word of an IAF pilot I have known over any CAS or report from any quarter, any day.

Besides there are ample examples where such pilots have proved it. Over and over again. With all due respect to the Brit CAS. Thx.

Having said all that he is entitled to his opinion.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 26 Jun 2013 08:52

NRao wrote:
That the Saudis are lousy pilots. Whereas the Pakis, for all their other attributes, have a quasi-professional armed force.
That logic should have been applied to all such meets.

Which would render most such meets rather useless.

You refute this logic in your later statement that no Rafale or Eurofighter will get the better of an IAF pilot in a SU-30.

It is self-evident that trained and professional pilots in a good aircraft will always hold their own against Brylcreem boys in the best planes. Why is this so difficult for you to understand ?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Jun 2013 09:22

I think the man-machine interface of Su-30 and Rafale should be different, and there is a learning curve there. Besides, the mission profile for Rafale would totally different when compared against sukhois.

Considering an equal RCS on both Raffy and Rambha (say by composite use/ RAM coating), then sukhois should be able to detect katrina's curves at a greater distance and much before katrina thinks she has been bugged. of course, that is just my current understanding.

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 26 Jun 2013 10:05

SaiK wrote:Considering an equal RCS on both Raffy and Rambha (say by composite use/ RAM coating), then sukhois should be able to detect katrina's curves at a greater distance and much before katrina thinks she has been bugged. of course, that is just my current understanding.

Not if Katrina mystifies her presence with Active Radar Cancellation. Her presence can only be sensed through her body heat when she is close enough to unleash her power of attraction.

I am talking hypothesis here. All these technologies are 'phenomena that present themselves in ideal working conditions'. In practicality, almost all techs when altered by the laws of physics take some form which supersede the other through a mathematical pattern. Be it even PESA, ASEA..etc.

Practically..only a zidane of combat will be able to effectively turn the outcome of an encounter given the multi-polar capabilities of various offensive platforms.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jun 2013 10:27

are the PAF MLU F-16 being referred to the old airframes from 1980s(block15) now upg'ed to somewhere at block40 std or some newer airframes?

the initial lots of F-16 block10 and block15 were the lightest and reputed to be best dog fighters , and later some version called the "bigmouth" block40 ... bigmouth might mean a bigger air intake to feed a new engine.

as platforms however the block52 they got would be a lot superior to these MLU units.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Jun 2013 12:25

how much airframe life do the paf f16a's have left in them?

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 26 Jun 2013 16:52

In a war situation, a Rafale will most likely be laden with bombs and missiles on its way to the enemy which will make it visible to even geriatric radars. With that advantage gone, it will boil down to turning ability and speed control in a close-quarters dogfight where the Sukhoi will eat any existing fighter for lunch even with stores jettisoned. In a close scrap, nothing can beat a TVC Sukhoi except a better TVC Sukhoi, not even a Raptor, IMO.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Jun 2013 19:01

Passive radar on the sukhoi platform with near stealth is what I was thinking. The raptors have that capability. The real advantage could be LPI mode of an advanced AESA radar on rambha.. and the capability like in the switch mode ops or burst mode scan&track ops, it can be a mission killer, like striking off all airborne warning systems in the 500 mile range.

Sorry, since we started comparing, had to go OT there. I am sure, Rafale can court the same., but its mission profile would be so different.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 26 Jun 2013 22:44

SaiK/NRao,

He has been abused and called troll and what not over the last several pages of this thread. It's normal for a person being mobbed to get sore and abrasive in his situation. Lot of posters here have developed a sense of supiriority which allows them to have a patronizing tone and they are supported in it by a$$ kissers/kabals. Cut people a little slack and let them explain their opinions, they don't have to be right (it's hard to define right)as long as they are not shouting "bomb in a crowded theater". Rest of us have right to our own opinions and choice of not engaging in the discussion or call on to mods.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Jun 2013 05:50

I think, we need arbitration thread, seeking attention of breaper community perhaps a GDF one. I seriously think we should present ekalavya's case. Justice should be given out. After all, we represent part of what we are at large. The more we show equality, the better is the sense of freedom.

We should nail the wrong doers, and put them into boot-camps, so that they become enchanted posters of future gen posters.

I am thinking constructive here, and not sarcastic.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Jun 2013 12:12

i think all it takes is for all posters to be civil and to think before they type

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 27 Jun 2013 16:34

Generally when i think of last 3-4 pages, all I remember is eklavya using words like 'karan's rant' , stupid, idiotic......

While Karan M's posts were full of techinal words many of which I have not even heard inspite of following mmrca, su 30, LCA & military aviation threads. Very very educating plus no swear words like used by eklavya and his supporter this katare guy like a$$ kissers, idiotic, stupid rant etc.

I'm reporting katare's post for using this term : a$$ kissers

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 27 Jun 2013 20:46

Rafale, Su-30MKI, and lca will all bring something to the table. Whether Dassault manages to get through the negotiation phase is a different matter. Personally, I'm more interested in the technology we'll be getting to jump start domestic development of future aircraft, sensors, and munitions. I'm sure that the reactor and submarine contracts will be linked to this deal as well. More pressure though will be on our side now with the sliding rupee and political instability.

vic · Post by **vic** » 27 Jun 2013 20:46

I think there are couple of posters using multiple identities attacking any BRF post/poster either supporting indigenous development or criticizing love for imports prevalent in establishment across the board for malafide reasons.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 28 Jun 2013 01:39

wow! Since he is not posting anymore, I think he may have been banned. Now everyone can say the same thing no more counter arguments.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 28 Jun 2013 04:48

Manish_Sharma wrote:Generally when i think of last 3-4 pages, all I remember is eklavya using words like 'karan's rant' , stupid, idiotic......

While Karan M's posts were full of techinal words many of which I have not even heard inspite of following mmrca, su 30, LCA & military aviation threads. Very very educating plus no swear words like used by eklavya and his supporter this katare guy like a$$ kissers, idiotic, stupid rant etc.

I'm reporting katare's post for using this term : a$$ kissers

Manish, you are lying. I did not use the word "rant", "stupid" or "idiotic" in my exchange with Karan.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 28 Jun 2013 04:49

Katare wrote:wow! Since he is not posting anymore, I think he may have been banned. Now everyone can say the same thing no more counter arguments.

Banned for telling the truth on BR. Never in a million years