Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 01 Jul 2013 14:18

Gagan wrote:Another thing. Pakistan has buried undergound in Bunkers a lot of important mil hardware at around the 200-500 Km range from India's borders. Need to have mass produced bunker buster warhead laden missiles to take out these mil targets.
Would be wonderful if India would have the capability to launch a massive salvo to take these out in the initial 2-3 hours onlee.
Total big targets are 100-200 onlee.
No need to waste precious airforce onlee for these.

if we plan to have ground launched bunker busters, the bulky hull form of Prithvi seems ideal along with a tandem warhead with the 2nd one being a tactical nuke or as a matter of precision the Brahmos might be better.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jul 2013 15:31

nash wrote:
So, between Pinaka+Smerch+Prahaar+Brahmos, IA field formations (Corps and Command HQ) will have capability to cover the entire battlefield in depth. It will reduce the dependence on IAF to a great extent.
Add nirbhay to that , and it will be subhan-allah phenomena

the keyword is _will_ or rather _could_ imho. we have invested nowhere near the funds need to build numbers in any of these to permit every corps to have a complement.
prahaar is just a proposal now put on table.
brahmos continues to be with special artillery divisions.
smerch is under army HQ I think - some sikular munnabhai was claiming its 90km range was deemed 'escalatory' and hence might need PMO level signoff

Pinaka - again funds need to pour in massively up the rocket production which is key to more regiments.

tools without the scale or intent does not scare TSP, let alone cheen.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 01 Jul 2013 16:45

^^^

Its quite a fallacy. Truth is, that both the Pakis and the Chinis, un dono ki phat-thi hai hamare saamne.

Dig deep into the Chin and Pak upper echelons (especially Paks) and you will find all of that.

Behind Indian smiles and patience are nerves of steel.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jul 2013 20:07

Kersi D wrote:Does it mean that
Prithvi with non nuclear warhead will be withdrawn and replaced with Prahaar
Prithvi with nuclear warhead will be retained

K

Kersi there are two versions of Prithvi. The basic or P-1 has a 1 tonne payload and range of 150km. This is the one hinted to carry special payloads. At same time DRDO webpages list a slew of conventional payloads and so far as we know no special fission payload has 1 tonne. To add more mystery these are not in Corps level control byt direct Army Hqs control.

Then there is the P-2 with 500 kg payload and higher range. These are with IAF for strike on PAF airfields. In the early 2000s some retired IA jorunalsits used to bemoan the lack of earth penetrating payloads of Prithvi as if that is the latest Vajra! We dont hear that wail anymore. Maybe it exists or there is no need. IMO, its mirroring US capability and supposed TSP storage tunnels.

So P-2 still exists and is with IAF.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jul 2013 20:22

for a really old missile I have never seen any imagery or video of prithvi striking mock targets. same for blast effect imagery of pinaka.

such video and images were released for brahmos only.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 Jul 2013 20:24

brahmos is for export, paying customer's need some exciting material to drool over
others can be kept guessing about the strike capability we have

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jul 2013 20:30

Imo brahmos is never going to be exported because we do not own the engine and the russians can always sell the yakhont instead.

Yakhont is already sold to vietnam.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 01 Jul 2013 21:12

In the earth penetrating/bunker busting role they might have the Brahmos with tactical nuke, its speed makes up for momentum needed and the terminal maneuvering can hit tunnels on the far side of mountains as well, wonder if such terminal maneuvering is possible with Prahar?

Brahmos Precision,

GBU Bunker busting at 0:19

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jul 2013 08:59

Dharma R, Is the RV radio proximity fused? Or g switch.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Jul 2013 09:29

Brahmos-3 with Steep Dive Capability should be capable of earth penetrating/bunker busting with some smart fuse to aid in delayed explosion after KE impact.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Jul 2013 17:01

Sagar G wrote:Prithvi missiles to be replaced by more-capable Prahar: DRDO

salute to prithvi, and hello prahar.

i hope we will have smerch market.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 02 Jul 2013 19:02

Not sure this has been posted. June DRDO publication has image of various Prithvi warheads and Fuel Air Explosive (FAE) on the last page.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 03 Jul 2013 03:15

ramana wrote:Dharma R, Is the RV radio proximity fused? Or g switch.

I didnt get you which one you are relating this to?

John · Post by **John** » 03 Jul 2013 04:02

Singha wrote:Imo brahmos is never going to be exported because we do not own the engine and the russians can always sell the yakhont instead.

Yakhont is already sold to vietnam.

Naval missiles' and equipment are sold as packages' along with their platform, it is hard to see Brahmos ever get any export sales when our Shipyards aren't exactly exporting any surface combatants. I think it is big mistake that Brahmos corp didn't form a partnership with Russian SY and even perhaps Korean SY. Even Barak SAM sales were held back due to France and Germany packaging their own weapon systems for export of La Fayette or Mako class ffg rather than allowing integration with a foreign company. At least latter thanks to its compact size could easily be fit in existing vessels' and some success that way.

But Brahmos is just too big to be offered as upgrade package for existing vessels that carry Harpoon or Exocet.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Jul 2013 08:57

Agni series

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Jul 2013 09:03

Dr Pillai has mentioned many time in interview that Brahmos will be exported only after fulfilling our armed forces needs which is huge running into multi billion dollars and the production to fullfill it will run for couple of years.

There were some negotiation with Malaysia and Indonesia but local orders are given priority over exports.

srin · Post by **srin** » 03 Jul 2013 10:25

Why export Brahmos at all ?

If you don't really care about the profits, exports are huge distraction. You need to ensure that it will be slightly degraded, you need to provide support, integrate with their favored chassis (for land version) etc.

Better to have a huge inventory (of current navy and army versions) and use it for cold start.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Jul 2013 10:31

^^You need to ensure that it will be slightly degraded, you need to provide support, integrate with their favored chassis (for land version) etc.

-> all of this forces the supplying agency to tighten their QC, develop skills in system integration, gain insight into areas outside comfort zone. how do you think israel climbed the ladder - by offering cheaper add ons and upgrades to existing ships , planes or land vehicles. they even managed to study captured soviet vehicles or planes and started offering upgrade kits for the same!

it also brings in additional cash flow to fund the next set of projects.

at $10 mil a round brahmos is not exactly cheap. fire 100 on day1 and we are down $1 billion of inventory.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Jul 2013 11:07

All export model of all sensitive weapons system are degraded to preserve Opsec and prevent loss of certain capabilities of the system that host nations operate.....Brahmos exported will be no different the only thing is it would never be spoken.

No sane people in Brahmos Corp would want exporting nation to have exactly the same capability specially in Sensors and ECM that our armed forces operate.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 03 Jul 2013 11:10

ultimately Nirbhay will cost less than brahmos & can be used in plenty ......

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 03 Jul 2013 17:25

Singha wrote:
at $10 mil a round brahmos is not exactly cheap. fire 100 on day1 and we are down $1 billion of inventory.

Should be around 3 million USD right now.

So far as I can remember it was around 15 CR INR a pop for Brahmos & around 10 CR INR a pop for Nirbhay.

TIFWIW

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 03 Jul 2013 17:29

and all being well, unit costs should decline in a logarithmic way if the learning curve effects are followed. i believe unkil DoD requires vendors to do that over the lifetime of a product, particularly munitions

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 03 Jul 2013 19:10

New chief of India's military research complex reveals brave new mandate

Apols if already posted. Dr Avinash Chander reveals some awesome things that make a jingo's heart beat faster only...

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 03 Jul 2013 21:26

Hari Seldon wrote:New chief of India's military research complex reveals brave new mandate

Apols if already posted. Dr Avinash Chander reveals some awesome things that make a jingo's heart beat faster only...

From the above link:

Asked about how India's missile programme squared off against China's, he said, "Comparisons are odious, always difficult, and many times taken out of context. If you see at the capability level, our missiles, radars are comparable with the Chinese and other friends around us."

I like this guy. The same message I used to give prospective guys about my mainframe competitors!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Jul 2013 21:46

An old book. Only partial available:

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/monographs/ ... /IGMDP.pdf

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 03 Jul 2013 22:01

New chief of India's military research complex reveals brave new mandate

Looks like a direct answer to a question raised in the geopolitics article link that Austin posted, it said unmated warheads mean the retaliation is not immediate but will be there which would allow the adversary to strike repeatedly before we respond

This article states that we are working on capability to respond within minutes with canisterized systems which means mated warheads.

This also means that if TSP strikes us with nukes we don't give enough time for the Americans or Chinese to intervene with threats of their own and we would respond in kind.

Also the geopolitics article credits Indian missiles with trajectory masking, terminal maneuvering but not terminal speed (even after Agni 5?) or penaids (may have to wait for MIRV)

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 04 Jul 2013 03:30

Impact delay and radio proximity. But there are different roles AFAIK

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Jul 2013 04:23

Radar or radio?

---
Each mode you mention has significant targeting philosophies.

John · Post by **John** » 06 Jul 2013 02:01

Austin wrote:There were some negotiation with Malaysia and Indonesia

From what i read both countries have inquired about Brahmos but neither showed any interest in procuring it. If they had it would not hard to find some way to produce some to meet their order as we had seen with ALH.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jul 2013 12:48

John check the Interview with Dr Pillai on Brahmos ( Pg 26 ) , he states where there issue with export lays ....also an excellent interview with Dr Avinash Chander Pg 50

http://www.geopolitics.in/mar2013.aspx

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 07 Jul 2013 01:08

That geopolitics issue is a keeper - lots of good stuff on missiles but also on the MHA air wing. Shame we can't save it. Or can we ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Jul 2013 11:06

Barak 8

http://youtu.be/PsNR4eQ5nDU

John · Post by **John** » 07 Jul 2013 22:06

Austin wrote:John check the Interview with Dr Pillai on Brahmos ( Pg 26 ) , he states where there issue with export lays ....also an excellent interview with Dr Avinash Chander Pg 50

http://www.geopolitics.in/mar2013.aspx

Thanks for the link Austin they are valid points but you have to keep in even Moskit, Yakhont haven't seen any export success. IMO platform and size of brahmos not politics or production issues' is biggest constraint for Brahmos. Even take for example the air launched Brahmos which cannot be carried by any fighter aircraft other than a modified flanker, even the countries than operator Su-30s aren't likely to go for that.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 08 Jul 2013 10:57

Austin wrote:Barak 8

http://youtu.be/PsNR4eQ5nDU

Thanks austin

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jul 2013 14:24

Range of missile "BrahMos" will not be increases

India strictly observes the inter-governmental agreement with Russia limiting the range supersonic missile "BrahMos" 300 kilometers, so there is a limit range of fire will not be increased.

This assured the Russian Journalists Executive Director of "BrahMos Aerospace" from the Indian side Sivathanu Pillai. Responding to a question, he said that India has signed with Russian intergovernmental agreement, pledging not to increase the maximum firing range missile "BrahMos", is 300 km.

However, the head of the company said that the joint Russian-Indian company is actively working to improve the missile "BrahMos" in other ways. "The development of technology in the field of missile technology goes very quickly, including at the theater, where India, and we can not keep up," - said Pillay.

In particular, the "work is being done in the direction of improving the accuracy of fire, increasing its capacity to overcome electronic warfare and air defense systems, increasing the speed of flight. These are all questions we carefully consider both individually and comprehensively. " "We are working on systems that would have a high reliability and a long service life with the possibility of extension. All of these systems with high performance must be integrated into a single product - a missile "BrahMos", - said Pillay.

"We are working to improve the rocket, remembering that the most important thing for us - our customers, which are the Army, Air Force and the Indian Navy," - said the head of the Indian side.

koti · Post by **koti** » 08 Jul 2013 18:46

From LCA Thread:

Aviationweek link August 2012

India currently has surface-to-air missiles with a 50 km range.

What are we talking about?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jul 2013 20:40

the venerable SA2 (45km) and SA3 (35km) both outrange the Akash-1

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Jul 2013 20:59

for a 300km target, say the missile does an additional 300km work of maneuverable traversal. does it not still come under 300km range? how have we defined the range in the brahmos contract?

Ashok Sarraff · Post by **Ashok Sarraff** » 08 Jul 2013 21:23

Yes, as long as the ultimate target is within the 300 KM range, MTCR is not violated even if the missile takes a 500 KM detour.

Indian babudom at its best!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Jul 2013 23:09

Don't we have some S-200 units as well? I remember seeing them in Operation Parakram