Indian Naval Discussion

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 02 Jul 2013 10:30

kolkata class now

kolkata class after

can anyone circle the Barak8 & nirbhay positions in the pictures

Barak8 will be on the front vls of the ship but are AShM's also located at the front end

# post needed bigger picture

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 02 Jul 2013 14:37

What's needed is a small UAV carrier.

There will be no hesitation to use and lose one of those in a battle.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jul 2013 22:06

titash wrote:Gents,
From the DRDO/LRDE page, their areas of work are stated as:

Army:
Multifunction Phased Array Radar and 3D Surveillance Radar for Akash Missile Weapon System
Low Level Light weight 2D Radar for mountainous terrain Air Defence
3D -Tactical Control Radar for Air Defence
Short Range Battle Field Surveillance Radar
Weapon Locating Radar
Multi Mission Radar (MMSR)
FOPEN Radar
Through wall detection Radar
Ground Penetration Radar

Air Force:
Multifunction Phased Array Radar and 3D Surveillance Radar for Akash Missile Weapon System
Active Phased Array Radar for AEW&C
Low level 2D Air Defence Radar
3D Low Level Light Weight Radar
3D Medium Range Surveillance Radar for Air Defence
4D Active Array Medium Power radar for AD role
Airborne Electronically Scanned Array Radar for Tejas Mark II
Ground Controlled interception
SAR for UAVs

Navy:
Maritime Patrol Radar for fixed and Rotary Wing Aircraft
Maritime Patrol Radar with RS and ISAR
3D Medium Range Surveillance Radar for ASW Corvettes
Multifunction Phased Array Radar for Air Defence Ship
Maritime Patrol Airborne Radar for UAV
Coastal Surveillance Radar (CSR)

Regarding the items in bold italics, We know that the Revathi will be the primary radar on the P-28 ASW corvettes. But what about the "Multifunction Phased Array Radar for Air Defence Ship"...I thought the IAC-1 was to have the ELTA EL/M-2248 STAR and the Barak-2. Is this a new development?

Excellent find. This is refers to the fact that LRDE probably has a new project for the ADS in particular, to develop an AESA MFR. If you see the other DRDO Tech Focus Radar PDF & then the Defense News article, its clear that the Revathi project has succeeded and is now being ordered by the Navy. Hardware apart, they have clearly developed a lot of the dedicated naval modes, the IN expects of radars of this class. Hence it makes sense to proceed with a program for a Naval radar, since they have already moved onto AESA for both Ground & Airborne applications and prototypes are already in testing.
BTW Shri VK Saraswat had mentioned that "almost all naval radars will be indigenous" - I had taken that to be either a typo or a mistake (he might have been referring to the other IA/IAF programs), but looks like we are making headway in the Naval space as well, hitherto our weakest link. IAF & IA have already started transitioning to local radars for many requirements, but in the Naval space, we were almost completely dependent on imports (with the Revathi being the one exception).

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jul 2013 22:07

The MMSR for the Army is also clearly a new project.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 02 Jul 2013 22:16

Not to forget the super vision 2000/2004 radars for navy.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jul 2013 22:33

That project, as the name states, dates from 2004. SV-2000 became XV-2004 (with RS/ISAR).

titash · Post by **titash** » 03 Jul 2013 00:07

Karan M wrote: Excellent find. This is refers to the fact that LRDE probably has a new project for the ADS in particular, to develop an AESA MFR. If you see the other DRDO Tech Focus Radar PDF & then the Defense News article, its clear that the Revathi project has succeeded and is now being ordered by the Navy. Hardware apart, they have clearly developed a lot of the dedicated naval modes, the IN expects of radars of this class. Hence it makes sense to proceed with a program for a Naval radar, since they have already moved onto AESA for both Ground & Airborne applications and prototypes are already in testing.
BTW Shri VK Saraswat had mentioned that "almost all naval radars will be indigenous" - I had taken that to be either a typo or a mistake (he might have been referring to the other IA/IAF programs), but looks like we are making headway in the Naval space as well, hitherto our weakest link. IAF & IA have already started transitioning to local radars for many requirements, but in the Naval space, we were almost completely dependent on imports (with the Revathi being the one exception).

Won't there be issues with a Desi Multifunction Radar controlling Israeli made Barak-2/8 missiles? They need to talk to each other and I always thought that bit was proprietary? Just like SPY-1 & Standard or SAMPSON & Aster...

The Revathi looks like a success...at least 4 on the P-28, and 20-30 more for all replacement corvettes/missile boats.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Jul 2013 04:22

They could work out the interface issues. Saraswat's interview on the topic was pretty illuminating, he said DRDO is involved at every stage of the missile configuration and design, and "everything" was known to them. It was pretty surprising given the general perception that Barak-8 was pretty much foisted onto the organization & their input was limited. Apparently, irrespective of how the program started, the DRDO has got its share of what it wants in terms of access to key technologies & having their requirements granted.

You are right Revathi is now set to have a good production run. How many 3000 ton warships are planned? Any estimates?

Defense News says:

The Indian Navy is buying 3-D radars to be mounted on 3,000-ton warships to provide 360-degree surveillance to detect aircraft, helicopters and anti-ship missiles.

MoD sources said the 3-D radars will be acquired from DRDO, which has already developed radar for use with the homegrown Akash surface-to-air missiles, which have a capability to track 150 targets.

srai · Post by **srai** » 03 Jul 2013 06:26

Karan M wrote:...

You are right Revathi is now set to have a good production run. How many 3000 ton warships are planned? Any estimates?

Defense News says:

The Indian Navy is buying 3-D radars to be mounted on 3,000-ton warships to provide 360-degree surveillance to detect aircraft, helicopters and anti-ship missiles....

Current/planned 2,500t displacement ships:

8+ x P-28 series (4 x P-28 ordered + 4 x P-28A planned + more orders likely)
9+ x NOPV (4 + 5 ordered)
6 x AOPV (w/ Coast Guard)

Total: 23 ships

According to a 2020 IN vision paper that was circulating around a few years ago, there was a mention of having a fleet of 12 x 3,000t and 12 x 6,000t combat ships.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 03 Jul 2013 10:14

23 ships but without any anti ship missiles ?????

don't we need some medium range AShM's in this ships inventory (at least naval one's )

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 03 Jul 2013 13:11

Wasn't ADS Vikrant supposed to be launched today?? any news / pics guys...

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 03 Jul 2013 13:52

SKrishna wrote:Wasn't ADS Vikrant supposed to be launched today?? any news / pics guys...

IIRC, it is supposed to be 12th August.

----------------------------
Added later:
Got the link http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india ... y/1114504/

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 03 Jul 2013 16:44

Vik leaving Severodvinsk to continue trials
http://s019.radikal.ru/i600/1307/28/3eeb97813ec4.jpg
http://s003.radikal.ru/i203/1307/1d/c8ad1efeffd7.jpg
http://s16.radikal.ru/i191/1307/63/fe88f4bb250f.jpg

titash · Post by **titash** » 03 Jul 2013 16:50

SNaik wrote: http://s019.radikal.ru/i600/1307/28/3eeb97813ec4.jpg

Does anyone know what that rather large radar is, below & in-front of the top-plate + cake-stand? And why does it have only frontal coverage?

titash · Post by **titash** » 03 Jul 2013 16:54

srai wrote:
Karan M wrote:...

You are right Revathi is now set to have a good production run. How many 3000 ton warships are planned? Any estimates?

Current/planned 2,500t displacement ships:

8+ x P-28 series (4 x P-28 ordered + 4 x P-28A planned + more orders likely)

9+ x NOPV (4 + 5 ordered)

6 x AOPV (w/ Coast Guard)
Total: 23 ships

According to a 2020 IN vision paper that was circulating around a few years ago, there was a mention of having a fleet of 12 x 3,000t and 12 x 6,000t combat ships.

Only 4 radars to the best of my knowledge...P-28A exists only as a mental exercise for now. The Navy/CG OPVs will also have navigational radars only....check out the INS Saryu pics. The replacements for the Khukri/Tarantuls will eventually carry Revathis (I assume)

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 03 Jul 2013 16:58

titash wrote:Does anyone know what that rather large radar is, below & in-front of the top-plate + cake-stand? And why does it have only frontal coverage?

Podberiozovik ET1 3D air search.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Jul 2013 17:31

SNaik wrote:http://s16.radikal.ru/i191/1307/63/fe88f4bb250f.jpg

SNaik , What is that big boat ahead with some rope tied to Vik , Some Huge Tug Boat or Ice Breaker ?

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 03 Jul 2013 18:25

Austin wrote:
SNaik wrote:http://s16.radikal.ru/i191/1307/63/fe88f4bb250f.jpg
SNaik , What is that big boat ahead with some rope tied to Vik , Some Huge Tug Boat or Ice Breaker ?

Largest tug boat in the world - Nikolai Chiker. Her sistership Fotiy Krylov serves with Pacific Fleet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OGavzH_LaQ#at=32

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 03 Jul 2013 22:21

Some good news:

INS Vikramditya, India's second aircraft carrier, out at sea again

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/ins-v ... topstories

The INS Vikramditya, India's second aircraft carrier, is out at sea again. By this time tomorrow, the 45,550-ton vessel built at the Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk, north Russia, will be sailing through the Barents Sea.

Over the next two months at least, the ship will be put through stringent testing in the Barents Sea and the White sea. "If all goes well, the Indian tri-colour will be flying atop the INS Vikramaditya this November, after which it will start its journey to India,"

John · Post by **John** » 04 Jul 2013 08:55

titash wrote:
Does anyone know what that rather large radar is, below & in-front of the top-plate + cake-stand? And why does it have only frontal coverage?

I believe it can still track high flying target in the rear as well if it is able rotate.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Jul 2013 08:58

Thanks SRai and Titash.

Titash, so you agree with Srais overall numbers of around 12 radars?

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 04 Jul 2013 12:08

John wrote:
titash wrote:
Does anyone know what that rather large radar is, below & in-front of the top-plate + cake-stand? And why does it have only frontal coverage?
I believe it can still track high flying target in the rear as well if it is able rotate.

Of course, it is able to rotate.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Jul 2013 12:29

Ideally Podberiozovik ET1 3D air search radar should have been given the position where Top Plate MFR is as it would have got a nice 360 * view of the Air at long ranges , Current Position indicates Podberiozovik would get slightly more that 180 * view but not full 360 * view as its obstructed by other mast.

Perhaps having an MFR get an unobstructed view of the Air serves more than a Air Search would for IN.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 04 Jul 2013 15:19

My educated guess would be that Podberiozovik's main role will be spotting high altitude targets like MPA's or AEW's.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 04 Jul 2013 16:21

Aircraft carrier Gorshkov to begin final acceptance trials

NEW DELHI: The long-delayed aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov will begin its final acceptance trials in Russia today as the Indian Navy prepares to induct the warship, rechristened INS Vikramaditya, by the end of this year.

The final acceptance trials of the Admiral Gorshkov, which are expected to last three months, are scheduled to begin with the officials of Indian Navy on-board the carrier, Navy sources said here.
:
:
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titash · Post by **titash** » 04 Jul 2013 20:38

Karan M wrote:Thanks SRai and Titash.

Titash, so you agree with Srais overall numbers of around 12 radars?

Karan M sirjee,
As of today, I think we can only count the 4x P-28 confirmed orders. The important thing to note is that the capability exists to equip and/or retrofit existing & future surface units in the event of foreign technology denials and/or cost escalations. INR:USD is now 60:1 and you can count on more Revathi orders if this continues

I haven't seen the IN 2020 vision document, but the IN appears to be moving away from the traditional destroyer/frigate/corvette roles and classification...all ships are progressively getting larger and more capable. Our fleet will include more that 12x 6000 ton ships by virtue of 3x P-15, 3x P-15A, 4x P-15B, 7x P-17A, 3x P-17 assuming modular construction in MDL/GRSE will speed up inductions

By WW II standards, the USN too moved to an all-heavy cruiser force...there is no way an 9000 ton Arleigh Burke will pass for less

Thanks,

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Jul 2013 20:43

Thanks titash ji, points well made!

I think Revathi/Aslesha variants may have a few more orders in the future given the IN snaps up indigenous programs and ensures they are well involved in the design and development.

Hoping for even higher power variants to appear and end the dependence on Russia/Europe for these critical sensors.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Jul 2013 20:43

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20252
how did they rectify the heat problem? anyone?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Jul 2013 20:47

A great walk around of the iL-38 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTAseWQBoK0

Basically a very capable mission suite, fitted into the ancient iL-38 airframe with a lot of ingenuity.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Jul 2013 21:05

Ka-31 video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-cxkeBl-RE

Observer is also a copilot and operates the radar and datalink.

The datalink is clearly the indigenous Naval-BEL solution shown here:

http://www.bel-india.com/Data-Link-Airborne

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 04 Jul 2013 23:16

http://hal-india.com/HAL-CONNECT/HAL-CO ... SUE-75.pdf Page 6

On June 11, 2013, Aircraft Division, Bangalore achieved another milestone in production of Hawk AJT with successful first test flight of first Navy Hawk AJT . The aircraft with tail number IN001 took off at 14:04 hrs and landed at 15:09 hrs thereby recording a successful first flight of 1:05 hrs. As per the Hawk AJT contract between HAL and Indian Navy , a total of 17 Hawk aircraft are to be delivered to the Indian Navy. Five of these are required to be delivered during FY2013-14 with the first aircraft scheduled for delivery in July 2013. Aircraft Division is very much on target to meet delivery requirements of the Indian Navy.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Jul 2013 07:50

Where is the report- (the foreign press),about the second Akula-2 for India? A modified A-2 with VLS Brahmos,etc. supposedly by completing the unfinished "Irbis" SSGN,incorporating the latest Russian tech found on the latest Russian SSGNs.Negotiations are going to start says a report .

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 05 Jul 2013 18:40

India's aircraft carrier plans:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 923356.cms

Quoting:
Khurshid also expressed his views on India's three aircraft-carrier strategy, saying as a Peninsula, the country needed one carrier on each side, and one as a reserve.

India needed so many carriers because of the long coastline on its eastern and western flanks, he said.

"If you have one carrier on each side and one in reserve, it is not much. We could do with many more carriers, but obviously there are limits to what we can spend and the need that we have at present will be well-served by three carriers," he said.

End quote

Look forward to the 65,000 ton IAC-2!

srin · Post by **srin** » 05 Jul 2013 20:34

INS Vikrant is already delayed - its commissioning is scheduled to be in 2018, almost 9 years after its keel was laid. We should have already started with other ships in the same class with same design. By going for a new design for INS Vishal, the entire cycle will be delayed further.

The only reason I can think of is that CSL can't accommodate two carriers ships simultaneously because of space issue or something, and so if IN would rather wait, then they might as well go for an improved design.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jul 2013 21:22

yes looking at our (lack of) speed, one way to resolve it is spend money on infra for more ships to be in pipelined construction...for DDGs and FFGs gaps could be 1 yr, for CV about 3-4 yr.

titash · Post by **titash** » 05 Jul 2013 21:31

Srin,
To quote Admiral Nirmal Verma,

“We do not rule out the IAC-2 catapult or the F-35 naval version in the future…it will be years before we decide,” Verma said. “Some people are jumping to conclusions on the design. The training, maintenance and aircraft commonality issues we will face with the catapult design are entirely different. We have other priorities…We have to examine what would be a reasonable time-frame for introduction,” he added

Looks like the IN has decided that 2 carriers are all it needs in the next 5-6 years time-frame. As Singha added, the other spending priorities are to modernize MDL/GRSE for P-15B/P-17A production, and to beef up the nuclear & conventional submarine force.

Also, a single carrier will consume up to 2000 trained personnel, and manpower inductions/training also take a lot of time...

Thanks,

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jul 2013 00:00

Shipped to the scrap heap: Defence ministry signs death warrant for India's first aircraft carrier

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 06 Jul 2013 01:47

Austin wrote:Shipped to the scrap heap: Defence ministry signs death warrant for India's first aircraft carrier

I am really sad to hear this, but the Navy does not have infinite funds, so I agree with the decision. Vikrant's physical hull may vanish, but the name will live on into the ages as a symbol.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Jul 2013 02:44

yeah the babus and mantris cannot find money to maintain a museuem but crores are available for other assorted nautanki

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2013 08:57

like rajiv gandhi foundation in safdarjung, nai dilli.