Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jul 2013 23:10

Singha wrote:the venerable SA2 (45km) and SA3 (35km) both outrange the Akash-1

That is not an apples to apples comparison because the Akash 25km range is completely powered flight, thanks to its ramjet design. It has the energy to tackle any manoeuvering targets within that slant range, whereas, for the other two missiles, their powered flight would last for only a portion of their range & as such they are basically flying telephone poles thereafter. If the target is maneuvering, they lose energy that much faster.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 09 Jul 2013 00:54

Are these international treaties only for those who sign the treaties? For example if Saudi hosts paki missiles won't the same apply to Saudi?

How about paki imported missiles - that goes on without any 'international' voice?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Jul 2013 03:25

The brahmos air launch version is the only thing we would be concerned on the "firing range". I don't think we need to have an extended range brahmos given mission profile and capability of brahmos. We have no intention there, from what I read.

One way is to say, we will keep 300km range restriction, but another way to say is, we are going reduce the signature to that of a 150km ranged missile signature so that a scamjet, advanced composites and weapons miniaturization, and high explosive cl20 content, etc.. there is nothing stopping by the treaty to reduce the size of the missile.

Homegrown lessons learned can be transferred to another missile with much longer range.

John · Post by **John** » 09 Jul 2013 07:49

Karan M wrote:That is not an apples to apples comparison because the Akash 25km range is completely powered flight, thanks to its ramjet design. It has the energy to tackle any manoeuvering targets within that slant range, whereas, for the other two missiles, their powered flight would last for only a portion of their range & as such they are basically flying telephone poles thereafter. If the target is maneuvering, they lose energy that much faster.

Can't speak for Akash but SA-6 solid fueled ramjet only had burn time of 20 seconds and coasted for duration of its flight its replacement Buk was considered in terms of range and duration superior to the former. I think main advantage of Akash it is rather cheap to mass produce but i believe DRDO is planning for solid fueled variant?

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 09 Jul 2013 09:38

John wrote:I think main advantage of Akash it is rather cheap to mass produce but i believe DRDO is planning for solid fueled variant?

Akash has solid fueled ramjet IIRC. It's more like a aggarbatti/dhoop/incense sticks which on ignition gives out fuel rich smoke which uses the ram air from ducts for combustion. Meteor uses throttlable ramjet i.e. the cross section of the throat of the nozzle can be varied to change the fuel flow. Akash has fixed fuel flow I guess.

Cheers....

srin · Post by **srin** » 09 Jul 2013 09:58

John wrote:
Karan M wrote:That is not an apples to apples comparison because the Akash 25km range is completely powered flight, thanks to its ramjet design. It has the energy to tackle any manoeuvering targets within that slant range, whereas, for the other two missiles, their powered flight would last for only a portion of their range & as such they are basically flying telephone poles thereafter. If the target is maneuvering, they lose energy that much faster.
Can't speak for Akash but SA-6 solid fueled ramjet only had burn time of 20 seconds and coasted for duration of its flight its replacement Buk was considered in terms of range and duration superior to the former. I think main advantage of Akash it is rather cheap to mass produce but i believe DRDO is planning for solid fueled variant?

Thought Akash is already solid-fueled ?

What happened to Akash mk2 ? Haven't seen any news about it.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 09 Jul 2013 11:14

akash missile

compared to patriot

will find THAAD & arrow also

vina · Post by **vina** » 09 Jul 2013 11:20

tushar_m wrote:akash missile

compared to patriot

One is Ramjet powered (air breathing) while the other is a pure rocket. Chalk and Cheese imo.

vic · Post by **vic** » 09 Jul 2013 11:45

IIRC Akash booster has burn time of 4 - 5 sec and sustainer 25-30 sec, therefore it has very good effective range. SA-6 was reported to have flown upto twice it's range in Israel-Egypt war. Solid fueled missiles have very good range in a straight line but even with minor maneuvering they fall short. For instance, Astra has burn time of only 4-5 secs. Solid fueled missiles are being improved with dual pulsed motors which have a sustainer. As a thumb rule Akash range of 25-35km would be equal to 50-70km of dual pulsed solid fueled missile and equivalent to similar 75-100km short burn simple solid fueled missile.

srin · Post by **srin** » 09 Jul 2013 12:48

vic wrote:IIRC Akash booster has burn time of 4 - 5 sec and sustainer 25-30 sec, therefore it has very good effective range. SA-6 was reported to have flown upto twice it's range in Israel-Egypt war. Solid fueled missiles have very good range in a straight line but even with minor maneuvering they fall short. For instance, Astra has burn time of only 4-5 secs. Solid fueled missiles are being improved with dual pulsed motors which have a sustainer. As a thumb rule Akash range of 25-35km would be equal to 50-70km of dual pulsed solid fueled missile and equivalent to similar 75-100km short burn simple solid fueled missile.

The peak velocity of pure rocket missiles is around mach 4+, while Akash has peak velocity of around mach 2.8. The Pk would drop more drastically once the sustainer stops. Or am I reading this wrong ?

John · Post by **John** » 09 Jul 2013 19:29

vic wrote:IIRC Akash booster has burn time of 4 - 5 sec and sustainer 25-30 sec, therefore it has very good effective range. SA-6 was reported to have flown upto twice it's range in Israel-Egypt war. Solid fueled missiles have very good range in a straight line but even with minor maneuvering they fall short. For instance, Astra has burn time of only 4-5 secs. Solid fueled missiles are being improved with dual pulsed motors which have a sustainer. As a thumb rule Akash range of 25-35km would be equal to 50-70km of dual pulsed solid fueled missile and equivalent to similar 75-100km short burn simple solid fueled missile.

That was a myth because as you noted the missile doesn't have the fuel for that, because of SA-6 superior low engagement capability and IDF RWR not set properly to detect SA-6's radar illumination at the start of conflict. Most instances pilots were unaware of its capabilities in fact at the start they thought it was similar to sa-5 in performance. Later on once proper adjustments where made in Yom kippur war to RWR, they were able to counter it effectively and exploit its range.

titash · Post by **titash** » 10 Jul 2013 02:06

A great video on the challenges we faced in developing the complete Aakash missile system from scratch...the development of successive tranches of Rajendra radars, missile launchers, and testing phases explains why ab initio product development is so hard

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Jul 2013 09:23

Air Force Intelligence Report Provides Snapshot of Nuclear Missiles

India

The information on India also fits pretty well with what we have been reporting. For example, the report refers to the Indian government saying the Agni II IRBM has finally been deployed. But NASIC only lists “fewer than 10” Agni II launchers deployed, the first time I have seen a specific reference to how many of this system are deployed. The Agni III IRBM is said to be ready for deployment, but not yet deployed.

Full Report: http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/nukes/n ... 050813.pdf

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jul 2013 04:22

So when is the Agin-V test expected? The build up was announced some time in late May. But then might have to wait for rains to be over.

Very Agonizing.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2013 07:27

I have a feeling the next launch will be cansister launch, the monsoons might have given time to revert back to original plan rather than revised plan of a nanga launch now and cansister launch late this yr.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jul 2013 10:25

No GD. They have to proof the vehicle (1 or 2) and then the canister launch.

negi · Post by **negi** » 12 Jul 2013 11:16

vic wrote:IIRC Akash booster has burn time of 4 - 5 sec and sustainer 25-30 sec, therefore it has very good effective range. SA-6 was reported to have flown upto twice it's range in Israel-Egypt war. Solid fueled missiles have very good range in a straight line but even with minor maneuvering they fall short. For instance, Astra has burn time of only 4-5 secs. Solid fueled missiles are being improved with dual pulsed motors which have a sustainer. As a thumb rule Akash range of 25-35km would be equal to 50-70km of dual pulsed solid fueled missile and equivalent to similar 75-100km short burn simple solid fueled missile.

There are no such thumb rules; too many variables to reach such a conclusion.

The argument that Akash sustainer has a longer burn time and hence can afford to manuever more than a solid fuel missle is lame it ignores the variables like skin drag and even the overall design specs for instance how efficient is the guidance algo and how is the response time of the actuators . If going ramjet was indeed a holy grail of SAM/AAM most of them would have adopted that route. At high speeds a small increase in frontal cross section increases drag those 4 gaping inlets of Akash contribute to a lot of drag .

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 12 Jul 2013 11:45

This dual pulsed motor is nothing but booster and sustainer packed into one. Single staged missiles use this configuration to optimise the propellatnt burn according to the flight regime. Since Akash is a SAM with not much restriction on size has separate booster and sustainer stages. Why would someone want a dual pulsed booster? Booster's job is to burn as much propellant as possible in short time, accelerate the missile and fall off the missile body(not in case of Akash, where the booster casing acts as combustion chamber for the sustainer). Having separate booster and sustainer is the ideal combo I believe but smaller missiles like AAM can't afford to do that for practical reasons and hence dual pulsed motors. Booster forms a large chunk of missile's mass and getting rid of it after it has done it's job is good for the missile IMO. After the booster separation, you have a light and sleek missile which can maneuver easily and at the same time that missile has extremely high energy due to the booster.

In the youtube link posted by titash, the narrator says that they increased the size of booster and reduced the size of sustainer to optimize the flight profile. So range can be increased IMO at the expense of performance. It all depends upon the targetting equipment and the envisaged mission.

Cheers....

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 12 Jul 2013 14:41

ramana wrote:So when is the Agin-V test expected? The build up was announced some time in late May. But then might have to wait for rains to be over.

Very Agonizing.

Will ``the queen" allow India to have a BM that could reach her land of origin ? I would be relieved if it were certain that A-5 will move ahead for deployment without getting cancelled due to foreign pressure.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 12 Jul 2013 15:32

Ramanaji,

Why at all would the monsoon deter Agni-V testing ? After all, SW monsoon is not very active on the east coast. Also, A-1 was tested July last year, A-2 in Aug. last year and A-3/4 in Sep. last yr. If monsoon is a problem, is'nt the NE monsoon in October a problem as far as missile testing goes ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jul 2013 20:24

In Wings of Fire, Kalam writes the test season in from april to sept to avoid any weather related issues.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 12 Jul 2013 21:51

vikrant wrote: In the youtube link posted by titash, the narrator says that they increased the size of booster and reduced the size of sustainer to optimize the flight profile. So range can be increased IMO at the expense of performance. It all depends upon the targetting equipment and the envisaged mission.

Cheers....

Cheers indeed.

Wish they would give us an Akash Mk-3 also with Smaller booster but with CL-20 crystals in it+CL20 warhead+Better then 30 meter resolution at longer ranges+bigger throttleable sustainer stage+Link16 kind of works.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 12 Jul 2013 23:44

How can CL-20 which is an explosive, act as a booster for propellant of any missile ?

John · Post by **John** » 13 Jul 2013 01:11

negi wrote: The argument that Akash sustainer has a longer burn time and hence can afford to manuever more than a solid fuel missle is lame it ignores the variables like skin drag and even the overall design specs for instance how efficient is the guidance algo and how is the response time of the actuators . If going ramjet was indeed a holy grail of SAM/AAM most of them would have adopted that route. At high speeds a small increase in frontal cross section increases drag those 4 gaping inlets of Akash contribute to a lot of drag .

i think there is confusion with ramjet missiles' that can throttle (Liquid fueled i.e Brahmos/Moskit or solid fuel var flow ducted rocket i.e Meteor) allowing them to throttle up when engaging their targets and allowing terminal engagement range far superior to what is quoted, Akash doesn't fall under either.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jul 2013 02:32

Its an energetic substance and insensitive. So it will give more ISP.

Class 1 fuels have explosives and are sensitive.

The above would give Class 1 performance with Class 3 or 2 handling properties.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 15 Jul 2013 19:25

If I gather it right then CL-20 has as much senstivity as plastic HMX in single dimensional stress and pretty much the same sensitivity to temprature.

So should work in Composite rocket motors.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 15 Jul 2013 22:24

Difference between CL 20 & conventional munition

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 18 Jul 2013 09:54

old launch of 44km range missile while mk2 looks different

With successful captive trials completed in April, and a fully reconfigured missile now ready for the next phase of development testing, India's indigenous beyond visual range air-to-air missile Astra is set for its debut firing from an aircraft by the end of this year.

As first reported in SP’s Aviation in March this year, 2013 has been christened ‘Astra Year’ by DRDO in light of expectations

With successful captive trials completed in April, and a fully reconfigured missile now ready for the next phase of development testing, India’s indigenous beyond visual range air-to-air missile Astra is set for its debut firing from an aircraft by the end of this year. As first reported in SP’s Aviation in March this year, 2013 has been christened ‘Astra Year’ by DRDO in light of expectations that the Astra beyond visual range air-to-air missile will finally see a flight test firing from an IAF aircraft.

Now, it is confirmed that it will happen. It has also now learnt that while the base version Astra Mk.1 will have an intercept range of 44 km, it will be the Astra Mk.2 that will be a true force multiplier weapon, with an intercept range in excess of 100 km. That, at any rate, is the intended configuration. The Astra will be deployed from underwing hardpoints on the Su-30MKI, not wingtip pylons as earlier intended. The Astra is an all-weather all aspect beyond visual range and close combat missile that will be deployed on the IAF’s LCA Tejas, Su-30MKI, Mirage-2000 and possible, the Rafale MMRCA in the future too. The missile sports active radar terminal guidance (dual mode guidance), smokeless propulsion, improve electronic counter-countermeasures and what the DRDO calls improved effectiveness in a multi-target scenario.

source: http://idrw.org/?p=24525

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 18 Jul 2013 09:55

newer version may look like this

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 18 Jul 2013 14:01

Aditya_V wrote:Don't we have some S-200 units as well? I remember seeing them in Operation Parakram

Where ??

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Jul 2013 05:08

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20277

It was almost a year ago when the Anti Tank Guided Missile (ATGM) failed in its user trials by the Indian Army in Rajasthan. DRDO blamed it upon the high temperatures in the desert where the tests were conducted to bring the target temperature to the same level as that of the ambient temperature.

what

the...

the new seekers would perform well even in extremely hot temperatures with more efficiency and accuracy in hitting targets with new improved detectors on the missile tip for sensing heat or infra red signals.

of course!

"As such, the seekers, which worked well otherwise till up to four kilometers or so, could not differentiate between the target object and the surroundings. Accuracy under such conditions worked well only till a limited range and now we are working on developing more sensitive and higher resolution seekers",

so still lot of work is needed to be done to differentiate target at same ambient temp as the surroundings.
q: why are we still chasing behind heat seekers? mmw is the one we need right? or perhaps a fusion, and opto-electronic homing.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Jul 2013 05:15

tushar_m wrote:newer version may look like this

Here is the new design. You can see the old design in the background. The new one is considerably larger.

Astra BVRAAM

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Jul 2013 06:02

SaiK wrote: so still lot of work is needed to be done to differentiate target at same ambient temp as the surroundings.

In the tests it is just a dummy sitting 4 km away. In a real life the targets will be operated creating/dissipating heat, which will give them a heat signature.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jul 2013 07:41

imo long term, all ATGMs will need to shift into MMW radar as threat detectors that trigger aerosol cloud bursts in path of incoming missile will manage to decoy a good number of IIR and laser guided weapons.

other than hellfire and allegedly the ataka+arbalets combo are there any other mmw radar guided
- man portable ATGM
- vehicle/helicopter ATGM

the future is probably not in man portable ATGMs taking shots from 2-4km but artillery and air delivered smart "skeet" type submunitions that float down in a swarm cloud and take out everything in clumps. atleast khan infantry is moving in that directiom...they no longer engage in close battle with insurgents, but sit back and phone the F-18 or B-52 to drop a couple of huge bombs on target.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Jul 2013 07:55

indranilroy wrote:
SaiK wrote: so still lot of work is needed to be done to differentiate target at same ambient temp as the surroundings.
In the tests it is just a dummy sitting 4 km away. In a real life the targets will be operated creating/dissipating heat, which will give them a heat signature.

How so? for example m1-abrhams new gens.. they can go quite, engine switched off on battery mode - scan & track mode.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 19 Jul 2013 08:21

^^^ Sir Ji IIRC most of these uber tanks including Arjun

would have APU's that would support the silent operations no batteries.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 19 Jul 2013 08:24

ramana wrote:So when is the Agin-V test expected? The build up was announced some time in late May. But then might have to wait for rains to be over.

Very Agonizing.

The test has been postponed until September due to rains..

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 19 Jul 2013 08:28

Singha wrote:imo long term, all ATGMs will need to shift into MMW radar as threat detectors that trigger aerosol cloud bursts in path of incoming missile will manage to decoy a good number of IIR and laser guided weapons.

Countermeasures for MMW seekers already exist. Smoke grenades with chaff (for MMW) and burning bits of rubber (for IIR).

nits · Post by **nits** » 19 Jul 2013 15:54

dinesha wrote:
ramana wrote:So when is the Agin-V test expected? The build up was announced some time in late May. But then might have to wait for rains to be over.

Very Agonizing.
The test has been postponed until September due to rains..

I hope its postponed because this is Just a Test firing - you never know in which season we need to use it in real times

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Jul 2013 17:54

At least one ISRO mission has flown successfully in pouring rain, though that has got nothing to do with DRDO missiles. However, I believe that these missiles are weather proof. DRDO is not taking any chances though during test cycles.