Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

SSridhar wrote:
Ashok Sarraff wrote:
quote="SSridhar"
-----------------------------------
It is not as though the Shi'as have been complete dhimmis like some other people. They have also retaliated but they are 20% of the population against the 80% TFTA who have the backing of all the apparatus of the State. For example, see Sipah Mohammed whose political wing is Tehrik Jaffria Pakistan (TJP)/quote
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I see. But why don't we hear about loving explosions in Rawalpindi and Lahore that much? Even if the population is a low 20%, why are there so few peaceful blasts in the core Paki areas? It should not be too difficult for a handful of Shia/Baloch freedom fighters to infiltrate the elite areas? Or is it? The last major attempt I remember was in GHQ Rawalpindi, but I am not sure whether it was TTP/Sunnis or the Shias who did it. Even the Mehran Naval-base attack was attributed to the Taliban. Hate to bring in India here, but given the attacks in India by (elements from) a less numerous minority on targets such as the Parliament, Delhi High Court, Mumbai 26/11 and so on, the % argument does not seem to be the only explanation. What else is stopping them?

I think there are several reasons. But, it may be necessary to divide it into two questions, the how & why of Shi'a killing and the mysterious and seemingly non-retaliatory submission of the Shi'a in Pakistan.

A little bit of history. Though Jinnah was a Shi'a, (Ismaili converting to twelver Shi'a), his funeral was not allowed to be conducted publicly by a Shi'a cleric, though his sister Fatima Jinnah had arranged for a very private Shi'a ritual the night before the Sunni clerics took over. The janaza was led by the rabid Sunni Maulana Shabbir Ahmed Usmani, a Deobandi who migrated from India and who had apostatized Shi'a even when he was in Deoband itself. It was the same Shabbir Usmani that Jinnah himself requested to hoist the Pakistani flag on August 14, 1947 at Karachi. If that was the case in c. 1948 and that too involving the Founder of Pakistan itself, what else could be expected six decades later ? Shabbir Usmani was also made Sheikh-ul-Islam in Pakistan by GoP and he drafted the Objectives Resolution. Maulana Shabbir Usmani’s student was Maulana Yusuf Banuri who founded the famous Banuri seminary in Karachi that has been in the forefront of not only jihad but anti-Shi'a sectarianism. Maulana Usmani famously demanded ‘jiziya’ from non-Muslims in the Constituent Assembly and told Pakistan’s first Minister for Law and Labour, Jogendra Nath Mandal, a Hindu, that non-Muslims should not hold such key posts. So, Deobandi version of Hanafi Islam was the official Islam of Pakistan right from the beginning though there were Berelvis in very large numbers until the trend began to change.

Though the Islamist Pillar of the 20th Century, Maulana Abu Ala al Mawdudi, spearheaded sectarian Islamism, it was more directed against the Ahmedis. The real impetus against the Shi'a happened during Zia-ul-Haq's regime when he tried to introduce Sunni Hanafi fiqh over the Shi'a and other Muslim sects as well. By that time, the Jama'at-e-Islami's (JI) leadership had passed into Pashtun hands, especially Qazi Hussein, a Pashtun. His role in jihadization of Pakistan is well known. He had the support of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and he was bankrolled by them into opening wahhabi seminaries all over the place. He was co-opted into the inner circles of Zia. Recently, the Baloch Milli party's member in the National Assembly had said that Col. Imam had admitted to training 95000 jihadis (must have all been Sunnis and sectarian too) during the Afghan jihad itself. How many more thousands have the various Sunni sectarian tanzeems (by my last count, there were three dozen at least) trained since then ? They are all available at beck and call, one should assume. The Shi'a or any other group do not simply have such resources because they are not funded by rich and powerful sources from outside, foreign governments and even the Deep State.

Within Pakistan itself, opposition to the Shi'a was cleverly exploited by the Deobandi religious sects. It started in the Punjab where rich Shi'a landlords dotted the landscape. This seems to have been the case in and around Jhang where the 'Mother of all terrorist Tanzeems', Sipah-e-Sahba Pakistan (SSP) originated. It cleverly asked the contract labourers to target Shi'a landlords. No wonder Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LeJ), the ultra militant outfit does this on a massive scale today.

As Shah Pahlavi in Iran was replaced and Al Khomeini took over a nervous Iran and its ally, the US encouraged actions against Iran in collusion with the GoP and the PA. The siege of the US embassy in Tehran, the hostage situation and the failed military attempt to free them all added to the wounded pride. This alliance of the Gulf countries (led by KSA), the US & Pakistan was too powerful for the Iranians and the local Pakistani Shi'a to take on. For example, SSP is a close ally of the ruling PML-N in the Punjab. Later events since then, up to this date, have pitted Iran against the Gulf Countries and their Western allies. Though Iran warns Pakistan every now and then of serious consequences, it has not been able to do much.

Why aren't the Shi'a retaliating? For one, the Shi'a (at least in Pakistan) seem to believe in targetted attacks, rather than indiscriminate bombing. They may have a reason for that, religiously or socially, I do not know. But, they have retaliated as well.

They are believed to have killed Zia-ul-Haq. LeJ's Chief Maulana Azzam Tariq was assassinated by the Shia in 2003. They do give a fight to the jihadi Deobandi/Wahhabi groups in Gilgit-Baltistan, they fight back in Karachi, Kurram and even Parachinar.

For another, most Shi'a are well educated professionals, politicians, landlords and are generally decently employed unlike the illiterate teeming in the million Sunnis. They have occupied high positions in various Muslim dynasties in the Indian subcontinent and they have that legacy whereas Pakistani Sunnis do not boast of one. These sunnis fall an easy prey to myriad jihadi and sectarian tanzeems. Even if a tanzeem were to start off as a jihadi outfit to attack the kafir, they would sooner or later begin to take on the Shi'a as well because they would naturally come under the kafir category too. It is like Pakistan starting off as a Muslim state but within two years becoming a theocratic state as the Objectives Resolution was passed. The Shi'a are also easily identifiable like the Mongoloid features of the Hazaras, or the marks (generally) on the forehead because of the way of praying, or when they take part in Ashura processions or visit the imambarghas etc. It is like the Taliban asking the Sikhs and Hindus in Afghanistan to wear a saffron arm band always for easy identifiability (for killing, just like the Jews being forced to do so in Nazi Germany).

As already stated, the Afghan jihad created thousands of foot soldiers trained in guerrilla warfare and many leaders who could strategize and execute a plan. The Shi'a never took part in that jihad and they do not have therefore resources like the Sunnis have. They also do not have access to arms, ammunition and training like the Sunni jihadi sectarians have. Take Kasab for example and his training.

I also believe that like their leader Hazrat Ali, who withdrew, rather than challenge his rights after Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) passed away and bided his time patiently, the Shi'a may not challenge and love martyrdom.

The % thing you have raised does not apply, IMHO, because Indian terror is Pakistan induced, managed, funded etc. A lot of planning and consequently funding went into the attacks that you mention. An organization or a country must invest so much to destabilize another nation even if there are some willing elements there to help in the process. For Pakistan, destabilizing its neighbours like India, Iran & Afghanistan is the only job even if it's at the cost of generation after generation of Pakistanis.

All highlights are mine in this excellent post.

Agree fully with it.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by KrishnaK »

Enlightening post, SSridhar.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

X-posting. By the way TSPA or RATS was a BRF conclusion long ago!!

Jhujar wrote:http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-9 ... -of-Kargil
The unsung hero of Kargil ( Paki perspective)
The prime minister’s arrival in Washington was shrouded in mystery. The first reports of the visit came to the Pakistan Embassy not from our foreign office but the State Department. Everyone was caught unawares. Hurried meetings were called, confidential internal memos dug up, and briefs developed to be able to lay down all the necessary ground work for the emergency high-octane meeting. Nawaz Sharif arrived on July 3 at Andrews Airbase and was received by Prince Bandar Bin Sultan, the Saudi Ambassador to the US, and then taken for intense briefings.By the time Nawaz Sharif touched down in Washington to defuse the situation, the entire world had descended on us in the Pakistan Embassy with Pakistan being criticised heavily, both in the print and the electronic media. In this backdrop, Nawaz Sharif battled his way up – pleading with the world to give diplomacy a chance.Saudi intervention on Nawaz Sharif’s SOS call made this possible. And the man who could work this miracle was Prince Bandar Bin Sultan.He staunchly supported the idea of forging close relations with Pakistan and China and believed that Pakistan was under-utilising its potential. He once asked former interim Prime Minister Moeen Qureshi: “I don’t understand why Pakistan is always afraid of Indian chicken”. He made China deliver intermediate range nuclear-warhead capable missiles despite strong opposition from CIA and the Department of State. During the Iran-Contra scandal, he bankrolled the whole affair.

Sharif never doubted a military take over. While the agreement was being documented, his anxiety was also mounting: “They will get me Mr President,” he whispered. Clinton quipped: “Yours is a rogue army. Keep them under civilian oversight”. Nawaz retorted: “It is not the army. It is (a) few dirty eggs. They will meddle to cover up the Kargil debacle”. And three months later, the military struck. The coup was inevitable. The ‘Dirty Four’ were afraid of a Kargil investigation and a possible court martial. Washington accepted it as a ‘fait accompli’.Gen Musharraf had the last laugh. In order to stay in power he hacked everything – faked the referendum, rigged the elections, pushed us into a war we never deserved, destroyed district administrations, packed the superior judiciary with cronies and finally left behind an NRO-tainted accidental leadership. Nawaz Sharif arranged an honourable exit from Kargil but missed the gallows by inches. Gen Shahid Aziz deserves respect for telling the truth – which is always in short supply in our country. If we still have a few good men in the army, they just need to wake up and come out with the truth.
Few good men are like mice among RATS and all want to be the kabila guards.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

The US drone war under Obama is now confined mostly to the tribal Islamist regions of Pakistan. It has now reduced the US to a tribal war participant just as the British frontier policy led them into the Afghan wars of the 19th century.
The real Paki Islamists are ensconced in TSP cities under TSPA army benign watch.
The US drones rule the tribal regions.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by ramana »

Brad Goodman wrote:India develops Urdu font, ‘dumps’ Pakistan's
NEW DELHI: Ending dependence on Urdu fonts developed by Pakistan, India has developed its own fonts for use on personal computers and mobile phones, benefiting 15 crore Urdu speaking people in the country.

Next step develop a Devanagari font that types the Urdu alphabet.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Shrinivasan »

ramana wrote:....Next step develop a Devanagari font that types the Urdu alphabet.
Next step dump using Urdu...
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Peregrine »

Shrinivasan Ji :

Regretfully our North Indians – especially Punjabis – have some sort of an obsession with Urdu.

Urdu is a “Turkic” word meaning Camp, Camp Inhabitants (Troop-Lashkar) as well as Camp Followers.

It is the Language which provided intercourse between the various-origin Troops and the Camp Followers.

The Urdu translation for Term “Culture” in English is “TEHZEEB”

Question to an upper class Urdu Speaker : Nawab Saheb, Tehzeeb Kahan Seekhi Jaati Hai?

Answer “Janab E Ala – Tahzeeb Sikhee Jaati Hai “BAI JI KAY KOTHAY PUR”

My Take : Jo Tehzeeb Seekhi Jaati Hai Bai Ji Kay Kothay Pur to oos Tebzeeb Ki Bhasha Bhi BAI JI KAY KOTHAY KI HI HO GI!

We Indians are Deeply Indebted to the "URDU" Language i.e. it is the Prime Cause for the Breaking away of East Pakistan to form Bangladesh.

Hopefully the Pakjabi Obsession for Urdu, as the Upper Classes prefer to speak Urdu and they consider speaking Punjabi - the language of the Ordinary Pakjabi - below their Dignity, will ensure the breakaway of Balochistan and Sind. Long Live Urdu in Pakistan!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Comer »

My take is we should keep Urdu common and smother them with familiarity.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by ramana »

Shrinivasan wrote:
ramana wrote:....Next step develop a Devanagari font that types the Urdu alphabet.
Next step dump using Urdu...

Not necessary. Currently Urdu is written in Arabic script via Persian. all am suggesting is to anchor it in Indian script.

Most of the culture in Urdu is from Hindustan.

Compare Urdu to Arabic. The latter is guttural and harsh sounding and their songs sound like wails.

We take back Urdu and let the Bakis become Arabic.
And let hem eat Arabic cuisine while at it.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Vikas »

Like it or not but Urdu is one of the Indian Language and a beautiful one too. It is probably the most expressive language among all of NI Languages.
Somehow Pakis have successfully made us believe that it is language of Pakistan and Muslims ONLY.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Dipanker »

Shrinivasan wrote:
ramana wrote:....Next step develop a Devanagari font that types the Urdu alphabet.
Next step dump using Urdu...
No need for that, Urdu is same language as Hindi, call it a dialect of Hind if you like. It just uses proportionally more Persian/Arabic words than the spoken Hindi, that's all.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by KJo »

ramana wrote:
Compare Urdu to Arabic. The latter is guttural and harsh sounding and their songs sound like wails.

We take back Urdu and let the Bakis become Arabic.
And let hem eat Arabic cuisine while at it.
I used to share cubes with a Christian fellow whose mom was Arabic and dad was American. He would speak Arabic over the phone with someone and it sounded very bad. As if he was hating on someone with coughing and vomiting sounds. Urdu sounds good, along with Bengali and other Indian languages.

But then is Urdu really Indian? I think it is the language of foreigners, developed in India using Hindi and Persian.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Vikas »

Urdu is a not a native Indian language in true sense but then it is closest to a language adopted and developed in India.Its framework is non native but execution is Indian.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Dipanker »

VikasRaina wrote:Urdu is a not a native Indian language in true sense but then it is closest to a language adopted and developed in India.Its framework is non native but execution is Indian.
Urdu is a language like Hinglish. In Hinglish you speak Hindi mixed with english words. In urdu you you speak Hindi mixed with Persian/Arabic words.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Agnimitra »

VikasRaina wrote:Like it or not but Urdu is one of the Indian Language and a beautiful one too. It is probably the most expressive language among all of NI Languages.
I'm assuming you either don't consider Bengali a NI language, or not as expressive? Never mind that the different dialects that all get swept under the "Hindi" rug are expressive and beautiful, but stultified due to neglect or suffocation.

Urdu sounds "beautiful" to Indian ears mainly due to the "exotic" nature of many of its Persian and Persianized-Arabic words. Even these words are pronounced not as they do in Iran, Turkey or Arabia, but with an Indian accent. Still, they retain their "exotic" value and so fascinate the aam aadmi. It also sounds "posh" and "sexy" in those parts of India that were trained to look up to their Arab, Afghan, Turk and Irani masters for centuries (while native dialects were scorned or cherished as "rustic" with poetic condescension). Sort of like English today, and the "Raju ban gaya gentleman" type of Indian.

But the fact is that when you learn Persian or Arabic, then Urdu sounds like a hilarious and pathetic kind of pidgin language. Most of the imported words and phrases are used in secondary ways that make a mockery of their original usage and meanings. Their pronunciation is as funny as a semi-literate Indian trying to speak English. Native Iranians, Turks and Arabs find Urdu funny, pathetic and definitely a colonial pidgin language that is fascinated by and beholden to their own cultures. It is totally a "wannabe" or a "wog" kind of language.
Last edited by Agnimitra on 15 Jul 2013 10:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Vivek K »

Peregrine wrote:Shrinivasan Ji :

Regretfully our North Indians – especially Punjabis – have some sort of an obsession with Urdu.
Indians cannot resist taking pot shots at each other. So much for national integration or cultural diversity (Quami Tehzeeb!!)! Mera Bharat Mahaan!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Peregrine »

Vivek K wrote:
Peregrine wrote:Shrinivasan Ji :

Regretfully our North Indians – especially Punjabis – have some sort of an obsession with Urdu.
Indians cannot resist taking pot shots at each other. So much for national integration or cultural diversity (Quami Tehzeeb!!)! Mera Bharat Mahaan!
Vivek K Ji :

Sorry Sire - it is not a POT SHOT at any one.

Urdu is to India what Pidgin is to China and Talkie-Talkie to the Caribbean.

We can accept English as a Language, or for that matter Persian or Arabic, but, Urdu cannot be considered an Original Language by itself. It contains Arabic, Persian, Turkic and then Hindi and possibly other Indian Language(s).

It is a fact that the Word "URDU" is of Turkic Origin and means "Camp" or "Lashkar" or "Camp follower"

In Pakistan Urdu is "Highly Arabized" so tht one cannot understand the Wazifay kay Ijafay kay Istiqlal ka Istiqbaal diya!

Yes we have Urdu as our "Indian" Language and our Other Major Language is English. One does not want Urdu to be removed and retaining Urdu is the only way Pakisan will diintigrate.

Thus Urdu has its uses but it is not an Original Language like Arabic or Persian or possibly Turkic.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Baikul »

All this is OT, but I have to comment. My first and last post on the subject, mods can delete as they wish.I don't know where this argument on Urdu is going but anyone that thinks that this beautiful language (in response to a sentiment expressed above, yes I'm North Indian, no I'm not Punjabi) can somehow be termed as 'not Indian' has another think coming their way - or they can pry it from my cold, dead hands.
Peregrine wrote:................Urdu is to India what Pidgin is to China and Talkie-Talkie to the Caribbean........
That's a surface comparison, unless Pidgin and Talkie-Talkie have had poets and writers of the caliber of Mir and Ghalib.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Virupaksha »

Ghalib thought of himself as a persian poet, not urdu.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Peregrine »

Baikul wrote:All this is OT, but I have to comment. My first and last post on the subject, mods can delete as they wish.I don't know where this argument on Urdu is going but anyone that thinks that this beautiful language (in response to a sentiment expressed above, yes I'm North Indian, no I'm not Punjabi) can somehow be termed as 'not Indian' has another think coming their way - or they can pry it from my cold, dead hands.
Peregrine wrote:................Urdu is to India what Pidgin is to China and Talkie-Talkie to the Caribbean........
That's a surface comparison, unless Pidgin and Talkie-Talkie have had poets and writers of the caliber of Mir and Ghalib.
Baikul Ji :

I also end this discussion by stating : Pidgin and Talkie-Talkie was never made the "official Language" by the Conquerors - Outsiders as English was accepted locally whilst Persian, Arabic and Turkic were not.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Rony »

Agnimitra wrote:Urdu sounds "beautiful" to Indian ears mainly due to the "exotic" nature of many of its Persian and Persianized-Arabic words. Even these words are pronounced not as they do in Iran, Turkey or Arabia, but with an Indian accent. Still, they retain their "exotic" value and so fascinate the aam aadmi. It also sounds "posh" and "sexy" in those parts of India that were trained to look up to their Arab, Afghan, Turk and Irani masters for centuries (while native dialects were scorned or cherished as "rustic" with poetic condescension). Sort of like English today, and the "Raju ban gaya gentleman" type of Indian.

But the fact is that when you learn Persian or Arabic, then Urdu sounds like a hilarious and pathetic kind of pidgin language. Most of the imported words and phrases are used in secondary ways that make a mockery of their original usage and meanings. Their pronunciation is as funny as a semi-literate Indian trying to speak English. Native Iranians, Turks and Arabs find Urdu funny, pathetic and definitely a colonial pidgin language that is fascinated by and beholden to their own cultures. It is totally a "wannabe" or a "wog" kind of language.
+ 1
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Shrinivasan »

Peregrine wrote: We Indians are Deeply Indebted to the "URDU" Language i.e. it is the Prime Cause for the Breaking away of East Pakistan to form Bangladesh.

Hopefully the Pakjabi Obsession for Urdu, as the Upper Classes prefer to speak Urdu and they consider speaking Punjabi - the language of the Ordinary Pakjabi - below their Dignity, will ensure the breakaway of Balochistan and Sind. Long Live Urdu in Pakistan!
Two observations:
1) Pakjaabi's obsession with everything Pakjaabi (which includes Urdu) to the detriment of everything else was one of the prime drivers of the Bangladeshi movement... may this mission continue...
2) Funny that the RAPE is obsessed with Urdu, it was never the language of the Elite / court. That language was Persian in the Mughal Durbar or with the Nizams and Nawabs of Yore... Urdu was the language of the the unwashed Abduls (which is anyway what the Paki RAPE is).

My only worry is, our WKKs also have an obsession with Urdu and liberally infuse Urdu words even is a Hindi conversation.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Johann »

Shrinivasan wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
2) Funny that the RAPE is obsessed with Urdu, it was never the language of the Elite / court. That language was Persian in the Mughal Durbar or with the Nizams and Nawabs of Yore... Urdu was the language of the the unwashed Abduls (which is anyway what the Paki RAPE is).

My only worry is, our WKKs also have an obsession with Urdu and liberally infuse Urdu words even is a Hindi conversation.
Urdu became the language of Hindustani Muslim identity in north India once the Mughal Empire stopped being dominated by native Persian speakers. The Mughals had stopped dressing like their Timurid / Chagatai Turk ancestors as well.

Pushing Urdu is all part of the desire for a unified Indian Muslim identity (which became particularly acute after the disaster of 1857), just like at one point pushing Hindi was part of the desire for a unified Indian identity. Nehru and the Indian ruling class recognised what an unsustainable level of violence would be needed to impose that kind of conformity, but the Pakistani elite was too dim, too arrogant, and too macho to recognise the inherent complexity of the Subcontinent.

Just like the language fundamentalists and communalists, the sectarian fundamentalists of Pakistan are trying to impose impossible levels of uniformity using violence and hate-speech propaganda.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by sanjaykumar »

They are in fact astute for they recognise that without Islamisation and a 'national' language, there is no substance, no organic reason nor meaning in Pakistan. Thus the manufacture of grievances, the collection of injustices will be a leitmotif of Pakistan as long as it survives. Unfortunately, they have lost all wars with India-depriving them of the necessary narrative of a natural ruler class of warriors-in fact they have embarrassed the history of Islam with their battlefield ineptness. Thus efforts at an ersatz identity are redoubled: Hazaras are paying for India's victories.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by svinayak »

sanjaykumar wrote: Unfortunately, they have lost all wars with India-depriving them of the necessary narrative of a natural ruler class of warriors-in fact they have embarrassed the history of Islam with their battlefield ineptness. Thus efforts at an ersatz identity are redoubled: Hazaras are paying for India's victories.
They have replaced it with Nuke deterrence. They want a different narrative as shown in the mulla video in the TSP thread. They have a narrative of a super power of their own imagination.

Mulla propaganda

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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by SBajwa »

You guys are forgetting that for 200 years or so Persian was court language (even of some native non-muslim Rajas and Maharajas) for long time and majority of the contributors to the literature in Khadi Boli (language of around Delhi, Agra, Lucknow) in this period were non-muslims.

Read Munshi Premchand's novel Godan (you can read it in Devnagri script) to really understand/appreciate their contribution.

The current Urdu to Pakistan is geared to be more Arabic and little less Persian and nothing from Indian languages. Even their Punjabi is getting away from native Indian nouns and idioms.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

SBajwa, the link to Persian was broken by the Brits who removed it as court language for fear of Persian intervention in British India. So they promoted Urdu.

Pakjabi is old Paschimi in Perisian/Arabic script with a lot of imported words.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ranjbe »

Pushing Urdu is all part of the desire for a unified Indian Muslim identity (which became particularly acute after the disaster of 1857), just like at one point pushing Hindi was part of the desire for a unified Indian identity
+1
A case in point is a Marathi Muslim lady who went to college with female relatives in my parents generation. This was before independence. Her ancestors had fought for the Maratha army, and they spoke Marathi at home. However, I was told that a transformation took place in this family in the 1930's, and this lady started teaching in a Urdu school, and her household now only spoke Urdu at home. She told our family that they needed a 'Pan-Islamic' identity to identify with Muslims in the rest of India.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Prem »

Shrinivasan wrote:
Peregrine wrote: We Indians are Deeply Indebted to the "URDU" Language i.e. it is the Prime Cause for the Breaking away of East Pakistan to form Bangladesh.
Hopefully the Pakjabi Obsession for Urdu, as the Upper Classes prefer to speak Urdu and they consider speaking Punjabi - the language of the Ordinary Pakjabi - below their Dignity, will ensure the breakaway of Balochistan and Sind. Long Live Urdu in Pakistan!
Two observations:
1) Pakjaabi's obsession with everything Pakjaabi (which includes Urdu) to the detriment of everything else was one of the prime drivers of the Bangladeshi movement... may this mission continue...
2) Funny that the RAPE is obsessed with Urdu, it was never the Urdu was the language of the the unwashed Abduls (which is anyway what the Paki RAPE is).My only worry is, our WKKs also have an obsession with Urdu and liberally infuse Urdu words even is a Hindi conversation.
Language of the Naukar, Kotha, Mirasi and the Converts out of Indian Civilization , cant have place among Civilized people. It adds no value to us. Like a true Baniya, let me ask "whats the benefit of keeping this forced farcical facade ? I say give it to Pakistan as a partition gift along with any mouth attached to it.
Kabira Hukka , Zibah , Paan , Urdu:Jo Jo Prani Paye
Paki Usse Pehchaniye:Woh indian Bann na Payee!!

Why so much attachement to something which is always a product of Insult?
Agnimitra
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by Agnimitra »

Yeah I see Telugu, Malyali and Bengali Muslims from Kolkata also take Urdu very seriously. They don't realize how it looks from the 'outside'. Its always vis a vis the native Hindu for them. Urdu is definitely a tour de force in India not just because of Islamist support. It is also the language of Bollywood and so maintains its 'sex appeal'. Its a part of a certain influential section of North Indian culture that works in subtle ways and influences preferences. I think Urdu borrows its allure from that Persian spirit which has a seductive beauty, and sibilant phonetics and comparatively flat cadence of a particular mode, a rajo-tamasic class of its own and very interesting in terms of type of vibration and 'meditation'. So Urdu plays that role in terms of society's need.

I find that even Samskrita Bharati flourishes more with non-North Indian populations just because many northies now find the cadence and sounds of Sanskrit a little alien, nerdy and un-cool, sort of the way they think of South Indians. It doesn't help that most of the purveyors of Sanskrit are in fact the nerdy, academic, brahminical, sometimes stuck-up types.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by svinayak »

Agnimitra wrote: It is also the language of Bollywood and so maintains its 'sex appeal'. Its a part of a certain influential section of North Indian culture that works in subtle ways and influences preferences.
Who made urdu the language of the Bollywood. Only way to handle this is to sanskritize the 'Urdu' language and export it to TSP.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

One writer of current events chronicles the quest of identiy by Indian Muslims in the pre-Independece decades. He says talking in Urdu, wearing Sherwani and above all the red topee with a black fez (Attaturk style). Other used to wear a fur cap. All these were markers of identity. Overnight suit.boot and tie folks would transfrom themselves with this garb. And it happened in the 1920s. Earlier it was fashionable to appear in Western attire.

Most felt too assimilated in Indian mileu and wanted to show their different identity.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:

Most felt too assimilated in Indian mileu and wanted to show their different identity.
That is why the name 'Pak' is manufactured
ramana
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

Acharya wrote:
Agnimitra wrote: It is also the language of Bollywood and so maintains its 'sex appeal'. Its a part of a certain influential section of North Indian culture that works in subtle ways and influences preferences.
Who made urdu the language of the Bollywood. Only way to handle this is to sanskritize the 'Urdu' language and export it to TSP.

A bunch of 'Left/Liberal' Muslim directors made that transition. Script and song writers added to the mix.

In 50s-60s till the Indo-Pak war the Indian Muslim culture depiction was the old nawabs from Lucknow or Hyderabadi jagirdars. The other genre was fake Mughal ahistoricals which glorified dilli bill or ganga-jamni culture. This despite Delhi Mughal culture was in death bed for over two hundred years.

Some where along Amitabh Bacchan started essaying Muslim gangster roles in the mid 70s and made gambling operators respectable.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by sanjaykumar »

The current Urdu to Pakistan is geared to be more Arabic and little less Persian and nothing from Indian languages. Even their Punjabi is getting away from native Indian nouns and idioms.



When Pakis stop using four of the seven names for days of the week common to Hindoindia, they shall be emancipated.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/ ... -coup.html


Wondering about what lessons the Morsi coup will have on TSP?
Setting the template for a coup
Tuesday, 23 July 2013 | Abhijit Iyer-Mitra | in Oped

12345 0

The main obstacle to a coup in banana republics, is usually the fear of international isolation. The West's silent acquiescence of the coup in Egypt has shown Pakistan that coups are acceptable, so long as they follow a certain modus operandi

In June last year, Imran Khan had claimed in an interview that ‘the age of coups in Pakistan was over’. Imran Khan, of course, isn’t exactly known for his intelligence — ‘Im the Dim’ being considered the subcontinental version of a Ken doll, but the hope was that being the Inter-Services Intelligence’s chosen puppet at least his statement carried some authority. Many such euphoric statements were also made about Egypt — but as time progressed, and economic mismanagement worsened, a rather vocal section of the Egyptian people clamoured for and got a coup.

History seldom repeats itself, but it does tend to rhyme, and picking out the relevant rhymes is the important bit here.

Possibly the most important lesson of Egypt has been the West’s reaction to the coup. While not gleeful for sure, the West has not imposed any sanctions on Egypt. More than a decade back when General Pervez Musharraf seized power in Pakistan, by contrast, he faced near total international isolation, but not the new leaders of Egypt. The main obstacle to a coup in banana republics, is usually the fear of international isolation. What the West’s silent acquiescence in Egypt has shown Pakistan is that coups are acceptable, so long as they follow a certain modus operandi which goes something like this: First ensure the economy teeters on the brink, then ensure the security situation deteriorates, consolidate the Opposition, make a lot of jobless hooligans and thugs come out on the street, protest, burn a few buses, and the Army basically ‘bows to the will of the people’ and enacts a Government change. The careful avoidance of the word ‘coup’ in Egypt is telling and probably sets the template for the next Pakistani coup.


{The first coup by Gen. Iskander Mirza was same template. The public was relieved to have some one run the country!}

Economic mismanagement in Pakistan is so obvious it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. The Pakistani elite — usually military associated, are blasé about their comeback; that Pakistan’s economic indicators have been like this for the last 20 years, and it is the informal economy of Pakistan that keeps the country moving. The issue though is that the International Monetary Fund and World Bank cannot lend based on informal economy statistics.

The dismal security situation is equally obvious from the near daily terrorist attacks, and ethnic strife either between the Pashtuns and the Mohajirs in Karachi, or between the Shias and the Sunnis all over.

The two prerequisites of an ‘acceptable’ coup, therefore, are in place, and have been in place for quite sometime. It is important to note here that both of these are directly the military’s responsibility. Pakistan’s defence spending is so beyond its means, that the ruination of the formal economy can in no small part be attributed to it. Further, its control of about 70-90 per cent of Pakistan’s formal economic activity through the Fauji Foundation has given it the incentive to thwart any competition it may face, despite severe mismanagement. Similarly the internal security situation is largely a result of the Pakistan Army’s quaint notions of terrorists being force multipliers — much the same way a normal Air Force would see aerial refuelling tankers, jamming aircraft and airborne early warning platforms. The omission in India and on part of Pakistan’s civilian leaders has been that for a very long time, these jolly jihadis were seen as an aspect of Pakistani power projection abroad. What we are now beginning to understand is that they are an equally potent tool of the Pakistani military’s internal security mechanism to keep civilian Governments off balance.

According to reports, Pakistan’s Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani has decided to ‘take a backseat’. What this means is that he won’t micromanage affairs and cajole the judiciary into doing his dirty work for him, but to be absolutely clear, he certainly won’t tolerate Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif meddling with the defence budget, Fauji Foundation or the terrorists training camps or security policy in general. As a result, Mr Sharif can neither fix the economy nor can he improve the security situation. In short this Government, like the last, is hardwired for failure.

Second critical question is who are the likely beneficiaries and why? In all likelihood since the Egyptian coup hasn’t been labelled because it placed civilians in charge, presumably the Pakistani military may end up choosing a civilian face, precisely to avoid international censure. The likely beneficiary will be someone vacuous enough to swallow their agenda hook line and sinker, but ‘respected’ enough to make the media swoon, and powerless enough that they can be disposed easily. The only person to fit all three categories — sexy powerless bimbo — would be Mr Imran Khan at the moment, though Ms Hina Rabbani Khar and her Birken bags that set the Indian media aflutter might also be a probable candidate.

Last and possibly the most important question is what would determine the timing of the next coup or a Government change? Given that the chess pieces have been in position for quite sometime, and Western disenchantment with President Asif Ali Zardari evident for a while, the question is why hasn’t the military acted yet? For starters, the Army needs a civilian shield for its manipulations in Afghanistan. It has to support the Taliban and destabilise Afghanistan, but publicly pretend it is not doing so. At the same time it is obliged to support and actively seek drone strikes within Pakistani territory, while claiming publicly that it is opposed to these strikes. A civilian Government is required first to face international flak and at the same absorb domestic discontent.

One tripwire for a coup then is the day the Pakistan Army loses the benefit of this plausible deniability. Signs are that once the American drawdown is complete in Afghanistan in 2014, the Americans will be loath to buy the Pakistan Army’s lies. At that point, a civilian Government loses its utility. But if the Army takes over directly, its international isolation will only increase and the Army will be associated with both economic and security collapse. At any rate, 2014 will set in motion something big for Afghanistan, but more so for Pakistan.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Post by Avarachan »

Regarding Persian and Urdu, I'll make a similar comment regarding the sacred chants of Islam and Orthodox Christianity (both Syriac/Arabic and Greek). If you listen to Orthodox Christian chant and study its meaning, Islamic chant can easily be recognized as the inferior derivative.

For instance, this is an Orthodox Christian liturgy in Arabic and Greek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyVllSkX7_s
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by ramana »

I heard a radio talk show on NPR where the author discussed his book on Europe after WWII. It was a savage place with hardly any civilization. What struck me is the comparison to TSP now which seems to be on its way that lower limit.

After WWII Europe was a Savage Continent
"Imagine a world without institutions. No governments. No school or universities. No access to any information. No banks. Money no longer has any worth. There are no shops, because no one has anything to sell. Law and order are virtually non-existent because there is no police force and no judiciary. Men with weapons roam the streets taking what they want. Women of all classes and ages prostitute themselves for food and protection."

Highlights of the interview:

On the famine in Europe due to war

TSP has food shortages

On expulsions of minorities after the war

TSP has done this since 1947 and keeps looking for more minorities to expel.Hecek they even expelled the East Bengalis out of TSP in 1971.

On women whose heads were publicly shaved to shame them for sleeping with Germans

Treatment of women in the TSP tribal badlands is no different.

On the Jews' experience after the war

Ill Treatment of Hindus, Ahmediyas, Shias, Christians, Sikhs in TSP


I would save TSP can be called Savage Nation for it has all the markers.

Excerpt of Savage Continent

Reading the excerpt(I will read the book later) and keeping TSP in mind one can see may parallels and als some reasosn why TSP has not changed and benefitted from the vast amount of aid it got from the West and China.
It essentially is a war nation/camp which is in temporary holding camp in TSP.
And its war aims are subsidised by its supporters.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by devesh »

Agnimitra wrote:
I find that even Samskrita Bharati flourishes more with non-North Indian populations just because many northies now find the cadence and sounds of Sanskrit a little alien, nerdy and un-cool, sort of the way they think of South Indians. It doesn't help that most of the purveyors of Sanskrit are in fact the nerdy, academic, brahminical, sometimes stuck-up types.
++1.

10 years ago, it was considered cool to mispronounce certain Indic names which were more sanskritic.

I used to be constantly corrected for mispronouncing Urdu imports into Hindi. eventually I took it up on purpose just to see what reactions I elicit. condescension and contempt are topmost. I once said, "well, I'm not used to so many essentially urdu words in daily speaking". reaction is same. but it's reverse for sanskrit. in this case, it's cool to mispronounce. insert a false "western" accent in speaking or saying Sankritic words.

this was in Delhi.

oh, sorry for the interruption. please, let us continue with the regular programming. admiring Persian/Urdu/court-culture, etc.
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Re: Pakistan : A new way of looking

Post by SSridhar »

ramana wrote:I heard a radio talk show on NPR where the author discussed his book on Europe after WWII. It was a savage place with hardly any civilization. What struck me is the comparison to TSP now which seems to be on its way that lower limit.
You are right. Anything evil, savage, maniacal etc., then the comparison can be easily made with TSP. I had posted a detailed comparison before between Nazi Germany and present-day TSP.
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