Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
We are at a crux in modern Indian history. The 'peaceful' transfer of pwoer to the INC led by English educated DIE had created a defacto monarchial state in India away from the republican nature of the state that was proclaimed in 26 Jan 1950.
This moanarchial(!) state has grown deep roots especially with Sonia Gandhi at the helm of the INC. All the party functionaries are in INC only due to their ties and loyalties to the Gandhi family. It was mirrored in all the regional (DMK, SP, RJD, TDP which are dynastic) and opposition(BJP which is leader based) parties.
Meantime India is undergoing social and economic changes whicha re unravelling the old social comapct that loowed the moanarchy to persist. Modi represents the new social and economic upheaval which is uprttoing the old ideas in all the parties.
See how Sharughan Sinha makes claims about Advani just as an INC accolyte would make about the Gandhi family.
We are seeing a struggle between moanarchial and republican impulses in this election.
* I intentionally spelled it as moanrchial as the adherents are moaning and whining. There is nothing regal about their behavior.
This moanarchial(!) state has grown deep roots especially with Sonia Gandhi at the helm of the INC. All the party functionaries are in INC only due to their ties and loyalties to the Gandhi family. It was mirrored in all the regional (DMK, SP, RJD, TDP which are dynastic) and opposition(BJP which is leader based) parties.
Meantime India is undergoing social and economic changes whicha re unravelling the old social comapct that loowed the moanarchy to persist. Modi represents the new social and economic upheaval which is uprttoing the old ideas in all the parties.
See how Sharughan Sinha makes claims about Advani just as an INC accolyte would make about the Gandhi family.
We are seeing a struggle between moanarchial and republican impulses in this election.
* I intentionally spelled it as moanrchial as the adherents are moaning and whining. There is nothing regal about their behavior.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
You could say the same regarding Modi fanbois too, they worship him too - only the reasons are different.SaiK wrote:so, ultimately we are poving that our mass is all behind some hero, heroine worship.. kings, queens and slaves. opinions of the kingships and lordships matters than opinion of the real democracy desiring crowd. people does not have the power, then it ain't democracy. the power, with responsibility is hard to cherish. not many people have realized how demcoracy plays.. it has only been misused.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
How Ram Sene attack on hapless women slapped on BJP leadership which had a significant resultin urban women voting for INC en masse in 2009 I this can be pinned on them. It is for the High command to keep its workers and associated NGO's well wishers in check.SwamyG wrote:Unless proven otherwise, one cannot pin the restaurant issue to the "High Command" and UPA stalwarts. It is common practice for "grass root workers" of almost all parties to indulge in intimidation. It is not restricted to INC.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
I agree there a bit.. but I doubt modi will share the same thought is my thought. modi must be thinking like me. 

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Police are taking action against the restaurant. Police report to the high command and UPA via the state government. The high command and UPA can be termed to be If the police return the equipment, and arrest some of the protestors.SwamyG wrote:Unless proven otherwise, one cannot pin the restaurant issue to the "High Command" and UPA stalwarts. It is common practice for "grass root workers" of almost all parties to indulge in intimidation. It is not restricted to INC.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
So you folks think the hot headed guys first contacted up the chain all the way to know Sonia's view on the restaurant bill, and then went after it? You guys give too much credit to Sonia. There are goons and hot-headed people in all parties, who want to show their "love and respect" to the leader. They do not wait.
As I said, unless proven - such things happen routinely where 'grass root workers' take matters into their hands. It is a different issue that 'High Command' might approve/disapprove of those actions.
As I said, unless proven - such things happen routinely where 'grass root workers' take matters into their hands. It is a different issue that 'High Command' might approve/disapprove of those actions.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
all grass roots are goondas. that is the core layer on which many grass root politicians evolve. i think the share should be near 80%. it is a large behavior model you are talking.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Fanne & Rudradev, I recall suggesting Nate Silver's book on polling "Signal and the Noise". Why dont you both try to use the methods on Indian polls and surveys that are being churned out now?
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1139 ... s-and-espn#
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1139 ... s-and-espn#
Its more involved than that!....
He became popular for forecasting elections, most prominently the presidential election as it plays out in the electoral college (hence “FiveThirtyEight,” for the 538 electoral votes), by averaging polls and weighting them to adjust for the ways in which they had been inaccurate in the past—a method not dissimilar from the one he used to devise a well-regarded algorithm for forecasting the future performances of baseball players. ....
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
SwamyG wrote:So you folks think the hot headed guys first contacted up the chain all the way to know Sonia's view on the restaurant bill, and then went after it? You guys give too much credit to Sonia. There are goons and hot-headed people in all parties, who want to show their "love and respect" to the leader. They do not wait.
As I said, unless proven - such things happen routinely where 'grass root workers' take matters into their hands. It is a different issue that 'High Command' might approve/disapprove of those actions.
Proven! You are ascribing stupidity to Kongis. Nothing will get proved. Otherwise you are at the least trying to apply normal code of conduct to a snake pit.
Ok what you like to lose if placed in the position of a strat jock. A soldier you can manage of a queen you cannot?
The MSM has started talking of this. The real meat is hidden away in the noise.
Your aside about the grass root being muscle power is well taken however.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
SaiK wrote:prahaar, how you want your freedom? the message on the bill can't be settled in restaurants. protest is must. but the means and language are important part of responsibilities in freedom.
if we have problems in our court system, then there must be protest there.. example, see how people reacted nirbhaya rape incident at delhi. that is protest.
yes.. thuggery is wrong. that needs to be contended at court. the response to that message by police is wrong as well.
In the US/UK you are free to say anything you want about the govt. The reason is, the govt is a servant of the people, by the people and for the people. You are free to say anything, however nasty, about the GOVERNMENT. Without using actual names - which can be considered defamatory. But in india the $hit has truly hit the fan where saying anything against the govt (be it UPA or the TN one or the commie ones) can lead to mob justice by party goons.SaiK wrote:lesson: one should not live in one's thought alone. btw right to dissent is different from right to challenge. if that is so (need to challenge), then courts are the premise and not restaurants.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Ramana is right. At some point India has to shift from monarchical democracy to an equal opportunity democracy. Election of NM if it happens may usher in a new era.
Also those who have been "nationalist" activists in the USA should know that various leftist outfits, muslim outfits with some dalit and EJ activists have been at this game since the Babri masjid demolition. So they got together and had a letter from their ideological partners in India and send it to the US administration. I think it is a bad idea for NM to seek a US visa. It only gives his opponents a handle to beat him with. RS showed political immaturity. Our experience over the last two decades has been that the Americans don't want a "Hindu nationalist" Govt in Delhi. This happened even in the time of Vajpayee. It upsets the status quo wrt to geopolitics, pakistan and EJ actvities. So asking the US for a visa for a potential PM of the biggest democracy is immaturity. If you have to do it do it indirectly through Indian-Americans.
Also those who have been "nationalist" activists in the USA should know that various leftist outfits, muslim outfits with some dalit and EJ activists have been at this game since the Babri masjid demolition. So they got together and had a letter from their ideological partners in India and send it to the US administration. I think it is a bad idea for NM to seek a US visa. It only gives his opponents a handle to beat him with. RS showed political immaturity. Our experience over the last two decades has been that the Americans don't want a "Hindu nationalist" Govt in Delhi. This happened even in the time of Vajpayee. It upsets the status quo wrt to geopolitics, pakistan and EJ actvities. So asking the US for a visa for a potential PM of the biggest democracy is immaturity. If you have to do it do it indirectly through Indian-Americans.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Rajnath Singh shouldn't have made that stupid statement. Why is it important to have the visa ban overturned? Modi doesn't need to go to the US right now. If he becomes the PM, the US will have to allow him in or risk damaging all ties with India. No amount of wailing by commies and congis in India would affect their decision then. Things would have taken care of themselves.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
shonu, who said India is a free country? we still have no rights to seek justice against corruption. we have no insitutions and setup to tackle corruption and bribery, and segregation by caste. we have institutions that is run by thugs and goondas. when we have our political setup run by them, how can you ask freedom and that too in comparison with some dirty firang names?
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Agree there that india is not free. India needs its 2nd independence - this time from the enemies within.SaiK wrote:shonu, who said India is a free country? we still have no rights to seek justice against corruption. we have no insitutions and setup to tackle corruption and bribery. we have institutions that is run by thugs and goondas. when we have our political setup run by them, how can you ask freedom and that too in comparison with some dirty firang names?
But I was only objecting to your statement "but the means and language are important part of responsibilities in freedom."
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
right.. i was pointing at the restaurant bill.. it should not have read "upa gov" instead they should have directly blamed the subjects or the scam itself. the wording imho, actually prompted the attack.
i dunno if that is all intentionally done for the sake of drawing out a challenge, or it was done inadvertantly in a blind bjp support to attack upa. saying is one thing, but imprinting on a business transaction where tax is collected means something different.
any gov will respond to that call. the response by police, etc is wrong.. they should have asked to reword them.
i dunno if that is all intentionally done for the sake of drawing out a challenge, or it was done inadvertantly in a blind bjp support to attack upa. saying is one thing, but imprinting on a business transaction where tax is collected means something different.
any gov will respond to that call. the response by police, etc is wrong.. they should have asked to reword them.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
And we have people who do not care!http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/u ... epage=true
UPA seen as corrupt, but voters might not care
For one, knowledge about specific scams is patchy; the corruption scandal that respondents were most aware of was the coal scam but even for this, just 50% of respondents reported having heard of it. Just 40% had heard of the 2G spectrum scam and less than a third of the Commonwealth Games-related allegations. All numbers were lower for rural areas. Moreover, state government approval ratings had little correlation with the perception of that state government’s corruption.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Good of Jagdish Bhagwati engaging Amartya Sen in twitter chirps.
http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/ ... fight.html
http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/ ... fight.html
Where’s Growth For Bhagwati, Sen to Fight?
Wednesday, 24 July 2013 | Rohit Bansal | in Business
It was amusing to see an economics professor trend on twitter this morning. The driver was Amartya Sen's remark that he won't like to see Narendra Modi at the helm. Embedded within was his critique of economic reforms; the message iterated in the title of his new book with Jean Dreze, "An Uncertain Glory, India and Its Contradictions."
Sen's carps aren't new. Nor did they always make a splash.It is only now that smart publishers like Penguin have in place the right social-media ecosystem that set sour country's ivory towers on fire.
I can offer three encounters with Sen as proof. It was a rainy afternoon in 1998 at the India International Centre (IIC) and the economics don wasn't yet a Nobel laureate for economics.
As the public lecture ended, I tip toed to him and asked: "Will you come to my television studios in South Extension?" I had asked only in hope, mindful of my obscurity, and the slush beyond IIC's picturesque surroundings.
"Yes! If only you wait while I drop these papers in my room," the professor replied. By the time I driven my Maruti 800 to the holding area, Sen was already there waiting. He hopped on besides me, and went on to give a detailed interview on what India was botching up in her economics.
When I wondered why he has such piercing insights, but no track record of serving the Government (just to rag him, I cited Manmohan Singh's record in public service), Sen said he is no Manmohan Singh; and he would never take a sarkari job!
Alas, those weren't the days of repeated play outs. Nor would newspapers deign to quote a TV interview. The story died no sooner our programme was aired.
(Of course, three years after becoming Prime Minister, Singh overcame Sen's self-imposed renunciation; co-opting him in a quasi-official job as chairman of the Nalanda mentor group.)![]()
My second encounter might confirm Sen's sway with the media. It was the winter of 2002. One Friday, out of the blue from London, I called his office at Trinity College, wondering if I could call on the good professor. Sen's staff didn't just give me an appointment, but a friend and I were afforded an entire day at the Master's Lodge. Most of what he talked, you guessed it, was how "stupid" Manmohan Singh's advisors were to be chasing growth. The chat became memorable with Sen pacing the hallowed corridors, playfully reenacting how Newton calculated the speed of sound, and then giving us the low down on India's fallen reforms right under Newton's Apple Tree!
I left after caressing an advance copy of his forthcoming book, "The Argumentative Indian," discounting the odds of being carried if I bothered my newspaper with a report.
By the third encounter, in Fall 2009, Sen had returned to his economics department study at Harvard. Appointment granted, I asked him for his renewed sense of Indian reforms. What followed was the narrative on the follies of our economic czars,aspiring for double-digit growth without addressing chronic under nourishment.
So, when consumer rights group CUTS flagged the "growth vs. poverty" debate one more time in 2011, two months after Sen's bête noire, Prof Jagdish N Bhagwati, addressed Indian Parliament, flagging that growth is the centrality which pulls up the poor into gainful employment and as a source of revenue for anti-poverty initiatives, I was surprised to see the robust "growth" vs. "equity" debate resurface one more time.
CUTS went on to document in an instructive volume the barrage of emails that were traded for several weeks.
"…only in India do serious intellectuals dream of debating these issues," Martin Wolf, one of the world's most influential journalists, wrote in The Financial Times. "Obviously higher incomes are a necessary condition for better state-funded welfare, better jobs and so forth. This is simply not debatable."
Wolf was wrong. No sooner The Economist reviewed "An Uncertain Glory," Bhagwati responded one more time. Sen was provoked enough to accuse Bhagwati of "unilateral attacks." The Columbia professor, in a bylined piece in The Mint, has now said: "Sen is not simply wrong; he also poses a serious danger to economic policy in India." Both titans sure know how to beat a dead horse. But can someone show me the growth?
(The columnist is CEO & Co-Founder, India Strategy Group, Hammurabi & Solomon Consulting. Tweets @therohitbansal)
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
from hindu/cnn-ibn opinion, TN BJP projection for 2013 is up 800%. From 1 vote to ~8~.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Why Amarty Sen is wrong:Bhagwati
In a brilliant article on Bhagwati versus Sen published in Mint on 10 July, Niranjan Rajadhyaksha unwittingly took one step in the wrong direction in arguing that I could be the economist for Narendra Modi and my good friend Amartya Sen for Rahul Gandhi. Let me explain.
First, I have argued (with Arvind Panagariya) that Gujarat has produced growth and also that the change in its social indicators is remarkable, whereas Kerala is by no means the great model of development that Sen has long extolled for its “redistribution” under the communist regimes, and that Bangladesh to which Sen has now turned is also no paragon of virtue. I refer the reader to the new Bhagwati-Panagariya book, referenced below, where Sen’s assertions are pretty well demolished with evidence and argumentation. Amusingly, now he has even turned in The New York Times to China, which he used to excoriate us for being “obsessed with”: but that will not survive scrutiny either.
I also believe that the Gujarat template is ideal: its people believe in accumulating wealth but they believe also in using it, not for self-indulgence but for social good. This comes from the Vaishnav and Jain traditions that Gandhiji drew upon as well. The best “foreign” model of this type is exemplified by my most distinguished Columbia University colleague, Simon Schama, who wrote about the Dutch burghers who had similar values and lifestyles. It is also a great model for India, I believe.
Second, the notion that I am for growth per se whereas Sen is instead for poverty reduction and “social progress” reflects ignorance. Not merely did I spend my early 1960s in the Planning Commission, working on poverty reduction, but Sen showed at the time no particular concern for that issue.Besides, in the early 1970s, when gender issues were not fashionable, I produced an influential paper in 1973 in the Oxford journal World Development, showing how female children were being neglected in education and nutrition. Padma Desai and I also worked through several Indian elections to show how women candidates were few and far between, and that the Left-wing parties were surprisingly not better at fielding female candidates. I also gave the Rajiv Gandhi Memorial Lecture on the importance of democracy (a theme that is integrated more pointedly into the analysis of Indian development in the Bhagwati-Panagariya book).
Sen has caught up with such issues only later and is sometimes described as the Mother Teresa of economics. But she did a lot of good at the micro level, whereas (as I discuss below) his policy prescriptions have done huge damage instead. Let us not insult Mother Teresa.![]()
Let me then focus on the issue of growth and redistribution in relation to India’s policy framework. As Panagariya and I have documented at great length in our book—India’s Tryst with Destiny, from Collins in December, and retitled Why Growth Matters in the US/international edition from PublicAffairs in April—significant redistribution in India could not have preceded growth as there were too few rich and too many poor. Growth, therefore, would not merely pull people above the poverty line but it would have the added beneficial effect that it would generate revenues which could then be used to undertake redistribution. I had noted these two points in my Vikram Sarabhai Memorial Lecture on poverty and public policy in Ahmedabad almost 25 years ago, also writing that added incomes earned by the poor need not necessarily translate into improved nutrition, for example, and that education was necessary to nudge people into making good choices.
Sen, with no evidence and with only wishful thinking to support his assertions, claims instead, and is at least construed by many to be arguing, that redistribution should precede growth whereas I (and Panagariya) believe that it is the other way around. As we clarify the matter again, for the umpteenth time, in our Letter to the Editor of The Economist in the 10 July issue, Sen puts the cart before the horse; and the cart is a dilapidated jalopy!
(Sen, in a reply last week in a letter to The Economist, takes me to task for “unilateral” attacks on him. This is strange. Intellectuals write for the public as John Maynard Keynes did, instead of seeking prior, bilateral agreement! We act individually according to our lights; we expect informed debates to settle the differences. He also claims that he embraces growth. But in our book, I and Panagariya quote him extensively to show that this is pro forma, at best, much like an anti-Semite would claim that Jews are among his best friends!To take just a single example out of the many we have recorded, he has attacked the Indian press for concentrating on issues such as foreign direct investment, which is growth-enhancing, and neglecting coverage of the poor.)
Sen is not simply wrong; he also poses a serious danger to economic policy in India. Indeed, having opposed implicitly or explicitly the liberal reforms that, starting vigorously in 1991, transformed the Indian economy and pulled it out of its abysmal growth rate, and pulled millions above the poverty line, Sen had suffered the misfortune of having seen Indian policy and economy pass him by. Now, he seeks to resurrect himself by endorsing programmes such as the National Food Security Bill, or NFSB, (which, of course, predates Sen’s endorsement by a long shot) which promise substantial “redistribution”.
But, for reasons discussed by many (such as Panagariya and Arvind Subramanian among them), therein lies, not glory, but yet another disaster that will make Sen the only well-known economist to have inflicted damage twice on Indian policy and therewith on poverty reduction: first, by supporting the counterproductive policies that undermined growth prior to the 1991 reforms and now, by supporting populist measures such as NFSB that would deal a blow yet again against the poor (as I explain below). The road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions.
There are four additional points that the reader should keep in mind. First, Sen seems to think that I am bursting to debate him. Frankly, I am not. It was N.P. Ullekh of The Economic Times who asked me why Sen would not debate with me the differences we have. So, I replied that he should ask Sen that, not me. Now Sen says that I want to debate him but he will not debate me. So much, of course, from Sen who has conned foreigners into believing that Indians believe in debates that lead to an informed democracy. As it happens, Indians traditionally are more into falling at the feet of great figures like Sen and me. Alternatively, they indulge in personal attacks like musicians who describe singers from other kiranas as “dhobis”! As I once remarked jokingly, we Indians are so ingenious that we multiply by dividing!
I thought musicians have "gharanas" and shop keepers have "kiranas"!}
Sen has so far dodged any invitation to argue face to face with those who disagree with his assertions. He indirectly responded to my Lok Sabha speech some time ago, which may have annoyed him as it had an unprecedented response in the country, unlike his own, by telling the Financial Times that concern with growth was “stupid”. On an NDTV panel on NFSB, where Panagariya unexpectedly turned up to oppose him, he lost his cool and said that Panagariya could not speak on NFSB issues as he lived in New York, to which Panagariya calmly responded that Sen lived in Cambridge! He was flooded with emails saying he was a hero to have brought Sen down a peg.
It is this tendency to degenerate into personal attacks as against debates on issues that we need to avoid. On the same programme, Sen’s friend, the activist Jean Drèze, produced some toy animals and told Panagariya that he was a unicorn! He is lucky that Panagariya did not respond bitingly and say that Drèze should have described himself as the Nandi bull, with his senior colleague Sen as Lord Shiva who had hurt masses of India’s poor. But is this what Sen wants us to do rather than debate issues in a professional way?![]()
Second, it is simply untrue that my policy prescriptions would be unacceptable to Rahul Gandhi or, in fact, any political leader who cares for social progress and poverty amelioration. If they are going to spend money on health, education, etc., they will have to find the moneys to finance them. Uncle Sam has no money to give; and God is asleep at the switch and not inclined to drop manna from heaven. Unless they want to hear Sen’s soothing but irresponsible reassurances on behalf of populism, they will have no option except to read and implement the reform programmes that we have advocated in the Bhagwati-Panagariya book for both intensifying and broadening the growth-inducing reforms we call track I reforms and also cleaning out and improving the revenue-spending programmes for health, education and public distribution system (PDS) that we call track II reforms.
Third, Sen keeps describing India’s shortfalls on social indicators, as if Indian planners and intellectuals were blind to them. The real issue is whether his prescriptions will ameliorate these shortfalls or accentuate them. Here, he fails us. And his flawed exaggerations of India’s failures on nutrition, successfully challenged by Panagariya, also leave him as a misguided analyst.
Finally , the United Progressive Alliance government is now poised to damage the economy, and to harm the poor as in the pre-1991-reforms years, because its near-paralysis on track I reforms has meant that revenue growth has slowed too, making it more difficult to finance the track II reforms on health, education and PDS expansion for the poor. At the same time, owing to electoral pressures and with the populist rationales provided by the likes of Sen, the expenditures on such track II policies are set to go up this year. So, we have a disjunction between slowing revenue growth and rising track II expenditures. This will mean inflation for sure: and this will definitely hurt the poor (many econometric studies have shown that the poor are hurt by inflation) while likely leading to a return of intervention in the food market, etc., that will likely undermine the earlier track I reforms in turn.
Surely, it is time for all politicians, especially the progressive ones regardless of which political party they belong to, to therefore finally stand up and say: enough is enough! May I urge at least the Prime Minister, a close friend whom I have known intimately for almost 60 years from our Cambridge days and is a proud architect of the 1991 track I reforms that I among others advocated for years and which have now turned us around, to finally abandon his silence and say to Sen and his friends publicly: “You are wrong”?![]()
Jagdish Bhagwati is university professor of law and economics at Columbia University.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
^^ socialism is crap. Hard to find any socialist nation in top 40 developed nations of the world. This speaks volumes. The so called western nations are under massive debts on the do good society model. All these looks good from surface but if you scratch deeper the truth of west will come out in open.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Sudheendra Kulkarni pisses in the face of RSS
Former Advani aide hits out at Modi, says BJP not doing much for minorities
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/advani-aide- ... 37-64.html
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
the problems can be solved by proper configuration .. socialism for gov, and capitalism for the public/individual. model should encourage economics and commerce, while enable stong industrial and engineering base. socialism is for protection of human rights, security, national interests, etc.. while capitalism enables groups, individuals, and society to grow. simple economics that even noble prize winners don't know how to implement.
gov should be just a body for forming regulations.. and not controlling growth and democracy. empowerment and bang on zero tolerance on corruptions, with a policy centric democracy changes will make india a sure shot super power.
gov should be just a body for forming regulations.. and not controlling growth and democracy. empowerment and bang on zero tolerance on corruptions, with a policy centric democracy changes will make india a sure shot super power.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
SwamyG wrote:You could say the same regarding Modi fanbois too, they worship him too - only the reasons are different.SaiK wrote:so, ultimately we are poving that our mass is all behind some hero, heroine worship.. kings, queens and slaves. opinions of the kingships and lordships matters than opinion of the real democracy desiring crowd. people does not have the power, then it ain't democracy. the power, with responsibility is hard to cherish. not many people have realized how demcoracy plays.. it has only been misused.

So what do you both of you want? That bjp or some bloody political party should rise completely on Samrat Harishchandra's morals? That all the leaders of bjp sit down make an ajenda of governance and go into elections without projecting a leader?
No deshvasees want NaMo, maybe most of the people aren't aware of why, since they haven't been on BR or internet ever.
What they have seen is:
1.) A man targeted by all congress, communists, SP, JD, RJD, count other parites too, media, press, intelligensia(so called), NGOs, for the crimes he never committed.
2.) That man has risen from being a chaiwallah's son to be a sannyasin a paarvrajak asking for bhiksha for years touring country, came back and started his own tea stall in ahemdabad. Later took up the work of cleaning the whole 15 rooms of RSS guest house + washing the clothes of vakil saahab their. Rises to takeover the CMship of a state where vaghela kind of people are continuously splitting the party and finishes all opposition.
3.) First decision he takes after assuming office is that he buy all electric poles he gets from Rajasthan and maharashtra and puts them up all over the state to provide electricity everywhere.
4.) I took my parents to porbandar in may for darshan of Dwarkadheesh & Somnath temple. We stayed their for 15 days. The administration their is to be seen to be believed. No policeman can refuse to lodge FIR to anybody if he does he is in big trouble.
5.) People see that these dallaa media raise up the issue of Siddhu cracking jokes on mms and sonia and criticizes him during gujarat campaign, but totally suppress the news of ahmed patel saying same day in same city "if man DOESN NOT get a woman by certain age then he goes crazy."
6.) We see in wikileaks how rahul gandhi said to american "we are not worried about LeT or JeM but of Hindu terrorism", the day he assumes the post of general secretary the home minister chidambaram introduces the phrase "saffron terrorism" to the media, the same rahul gandhi gets promoted to be vice president and home minister shinde betters chidambrum with "Hindu Terrorism". Waah bhai waah. So people can see now every home minister to be good in the eyes of rising rahul has to curse hindus as nothing else pleases shri rahul gandhi.
7. For digvijay Osama is Osama ji, while ramdev is thug, RSN Singh has written how these politicians are afraid of Hafiz Sayeed.
8. Meenakshi Lekhi, Gurumurthy have raised the issue of foreign minister salman khurshid's : Salman Kurshid wrote :But they may not know that long back, in 1986 itself, he had qualified for Bharat Ratna for his book At Home In India; A Statement of Indian Muslims, expounding secular Muslim views. In that book, Khurshid wrote that in 1984, when the Sikhs were massacred in Delhi, “there was terrible satisfaction among the Muslims, who have not completely forgotten the Partition’s unpleasant aftermath. Hindus and Sikhs were alike paying for their sins. They were paying for the blood they had drawn in 1947”.
But inspite of this being mentioned on TIMES NOW channel by Mrs. Lekhi or Sh. Gurumurthy continuously raising it the media keeps on suppressing this information.
Hudd ho gayi.
9. Nobody other than SSwamy raises sonia's illegal passport issue, even when he raises the media promptly buries it. On what flight sonia - rahul - priyanka travel outside the country, nobody can raise that issue.
When anna sat on strike and wrote the letter to sonia, he reply was read on tv channels and they read he reply "i was outside delhi

10. 2G scam, coal scam of lakhs of crores have come up and immediately newsreaders go on behalf of congress ".....but similar issues were raised with allegation of 65 lacs scam during NDA........"
Therefore in all of this people see this 'Diya(Modi) aur Toofan(imperium)' story and hope this Diya will win on the behalf of this country:
I remember in 1980 Shri Vajpayee had fought against som stephan guy from congress. I was 10 years old and we were living in kidwai nagar and my mother told me and my younger sister to come with her to listen to vajpayee's speech which was happening at the kidwai nagar gumbad. But as we went out some relatives arrived and my mother had to go back, but she insisted that I take my sister to the speech.
33 years have passed but I still remember most of his speech, the jokes the laughter, as he saw people were garlanding him during the speech and he would take of the garland and hand over to somebody who will keep it on the left side of the stage and after sometime somebody will pick up that used garland and again put on him. So he rolled his eyes and hand drawing a circle from garland's place to himself and said "Duniy gol hai! (world is round)", and jokes like "........phir hamne mataaji* sey kaha ki anaaj ki black ho rahi hai aur sarkari anaaj godaamon mein padaa hai, kya aap satyanarayan ki katha hone ka intzaar kar rahi hain, aur tab iss anaaj ko bazaar mein layeengi...."
"Saamney ye board dekh rahein hain (it was lifbuoy poster), kya jhaag nikal rahaa hai, par mehangaee ki maar aisee hai ki aap ko khareedna padta hai sher chhap sabun jiss se kapda bhi saaf aur chamdi bhi saaf....."
Memorable experience, modi doesn't have that sort of charisma but I as a fan of Vajpayee ji and Advani ji see him capable of doing a miracle in delhi against these dilli billis, against this foreign funded evangelist + ISI influenced media, this politics of die-nasty. I feel and maybe other fans too that the way he has survived the joint attack of vatican + NATO + ISI + political parties + ISI funded NGOs like Shabnam Azmi and Harsh mandar, IN THE SAME WAY HE'LL GET RID A LOT OF THIS SLIME FROM OUR COUNTRY.
If both of you SaiK and SwamyG don't approve of modi supporters and want to condemn them by labeling as "fanbois, hero worshippers.... etc.", then it becomes clear to me that your priorities are not in opposing vishkanya-imperium-foreign powers but want to meen-mekh in modi supporters, then I label you both as 'Non-nationalists".

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
boy you have gone on a rampage here with all these emotional bickerings. can you help by listing out some bullet points for me to respond?
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
He used numbers instead of bullet points!
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
ramana wrote:We are at a crux in modern Indian history. The 'peaceful' transfer of pwoer to the INC led by English educated DIE had created a defacto monarchial state in India away from the republican nature of the state that was proclaimed in 26 Jan 1950.
This moanarchial(!) state has grown deep roots especially with Sonia Gandhi at the helm of the INC. All the party functionaries are in INC only due to their ties and loyalties to the Gandhi family. It was mirrored in all the regional (DMK, SP, RJD, TDP which are dynastic) and opposition(BJP which is leader based) parties.
Meantime India is undergoing social and economic changes whicha re unravelling the old social comapct that loowed the moanarchy to persist. Modi represents the new social and economic upheaval which is uprttoing the old ideas in all the parties.
See how Sharughan Sinha makes claims about Advani just as an INC accolyte would make about the Gandhi family.
We are seeing a struggle between moanarchial and republican impulses in this election.
* I intentionally spelled it as moanrchial as the adherents are moaning and whining. There is nothing regal about their behavior.
What happened was a new modern Indian heirachy based on the leader and follower relationship was imposed in all the polticial parties. In some case the relationship followed dynastic mode in other it could be usurped.
All this is contra to the social and economical changes underway after the colonial powers left. The changes gained momentum after the 1991 economic reforms. Peoples' expectations have outpaced the old heirarchial political order. They want outlets for the pentup forces of socio-economic change.
They are questioning why it is so?
For instance Reliance, Infosys, Wipro, Mittal among others have coem up with new ways of making money in their own ways.
Indian educated dispora is making its mark all over the world.
But in India the people are restricted to a heirarchial order demanding respect due to birth and age and not deeds.
This is the instability driving the change now.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
I believe RNSingh said "Modi is recognized as done several things .... US has (no choice but) to recognize Modi and have (no choice but) to give him Visa. Sooner is preferable".nachiket wrote:Rajnath Singh shouldn't have made that stupid statement. Why is it important to have the visa ban overturned? Modi doesn't need to go to the US right now. If he becomes the PM, the US will have to allow him in or risk damaging all ties with India. No amount of wailing by commies and congis in India would affect their decision then. Things would have taken care of themselves.
The words in brackets are mine to give import to the statement. The statement I think is lost in translation and when put on paper. To me it was a just a statement of the fact. There was no "begging, grovelling" etc., actually it looked more like an observation coming from a pulpit rather than a request.
Imagine me stating this "India has to recognize moon (is reachable) and launch an astronaut to land on moon. Sooner is preferable". And the next day headlines scream - "Disha begged the moon for permission to land"

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Dude, before going on a rant and forth from all your hazar orifices.......at least distinguish between fanbois and supporters. Then at least understand what others are saying before blinding jumping to conclusions when someone says "Jump". Then you might want to ponder on casting aspersions.....oh well.Manish_Sharma wrote: If both of you SaiK and SwamyG don't approve of modi supporters and want to condemn them by labeling as "fanbois, hero worshippers.... etc.", then it becomes clear to me that your priorities are not in opposing vishkanya-imperium-foreign powers but want to meen-mekh in modi supporters, then I label you both as 'Non-nationalists".
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fanboi
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/supporter
Hopefully, Modi gets intelligent supporters and not deranged fanbois.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
SaiK wrote:boy you have gone on a rampage here with all these emotional bickerings. can you help by listing out some bullet points for me to respond?

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
no.. just waiting for his answers.. at least i can reduce my noise. 
please note that "mad" symbol he has put in.. so I got to be careful naah!?
ps: i am thinking..: should I answer to mr. gins response, or to my post or to sharma ji's orthogonal thought flows?

please note that "mad" symbol he has put in.. so I got to be careful naah!?
ps: i am thinking..: should I answer to mr. gins response, or to my post or to sharma ji's orthogonal thought flows?
Last edited by SaiK on 24 Jul 2013 04:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
That's 700% onlee. Minor correction of course, what's 100% these days...SaiK wrote:from hindu/cnn-ibn opinion, TN BJP projection for 2013 is up 800%. From 1 vote to ~8~.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Deleted on Hari ji's advice.
Om Shanti Shanti Shanti !!!
Om Shanti Shanti Shanti !!!
Last edited by Manish_Sharma on 24 Jul 2013 05:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
If CBI is GOI's parrot what does that make NIA, one has to wonder...
NIA sources say timers used in Bodhgaya attack were made in Gujarat
NIA sources say timers used in Bodhgaya attack were made in Gujarat
In fact, wouldn't be surprised if the sooper-sleuths at the PIA, oops NIA, manage to trace down the exact location of the manufacture to GPS military grade standards i.e. to within 3 meters of ground zero.... IOW, the CMO in Guj...After examining the unexploded bombs recovered from the famous Buddhist shrine after blasts on July 7 the NIA has established the Gujarat link to the terror attack.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Manish, chillax. Take it easy. World is never all black and white.Manish_Sharma wrote:Oye 'non-nationalist' dude! So you have appointed yourself to be the judge of who is a supporter and who is a deranged fanboi?SwamyG wrote:
Hopefully, Modi gets intelligent supporters and not deranged fanbois.
For instance, I'm a fanboi some of the time, seasoned cynic and critic of the bjp and even NM at other times. Phases happen, they come and go and that's how learning happens.
Comes with being human I guess... and no, unlike some scoffers here who pretend to be so above-it-all, I'm happy to admit moi human failings only.
BTW, no point by spewing labels and then scoffing at the same (e.g., 'fanbois', 'non-nationalists', whatHaveYou etc). POint is there if done in wit or as satire but not if done in anger. Strictly JMTPs onlee, of course... another of my phases I guess ('wise philosopher')...

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Ok Hari ji, will take a break for now!
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
Amartya Sen 'lost Indian-ness' after dumping Bengali wife for foreign brides: Swamy
"Amartya Sen is not Indian. He had lost his Indian-ness after he left his Bengali ex-wife and married two foreign females. He has lived abroad and only visits the country for a couple of months, which cannot make you Indian", Swamy said here today.
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... O4.twitter
"Amartya Sen is not Indian. He had lost his Indian-ness after he left his Bengali ex-wife and married two foreign females. He has lived abroad and only visits the country for a couple of months, which cannot make you Indian", Swamy said here today.
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... O4.twitter
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
DDM again. Clocks made in Gujarat makes it to headlines but were sold in Gauhatti or cylinders bought locally perhaps does not make it to headlines! So made in Gujarat means what here. Obnoxious media at its worst and its going tangential now.Hari Seldon wrote:If CBI is GOI's parrot what does that make NIA, one has to wonder...
NIA sources say timers used in Bodhgaya attack were made in Gujarat
In fact, wouldn't be surprised if the sooper-sleuths at the PIA, oops NIA, manage to trace down the exact location of the manufacture to GPS military grade standards i.e. to within 3 meters of ground zero.... IOW, the CMO in Guj...After examining the unexploded bombs recovered from the famous Buddhist shrine after blasts on July 7 the NIA has established the Gujarat link to the terror attack.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
^Used to watch news on TV even if was pissing me off every 5 minutes with something or the other, but now has become so disgusted that I cant even stand to flick through them. I wonder how many like me are out there now.
Also, SS knows where to hit, right where it hurts. I hope these Cambridge/Oxford buggers stay where they are and vomit in their own localities.
Also, SS knows where to hit, right where it hurts. I hope these Cambridge/Oxford buggers stay where they are and vomit in their own localities.
Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India
RNS speech does not mention about NaMo visa to uncle. It appears to be a ddm charade to deride NaMo team. Whatever they do will be twisted beyond recognition. Many fall for their trap- both pro and anti.
This time super eager Congo acolytes assembled together a rag tag sikular bunch to write to ombaba in a game of one-upmanship amongst themselves.
Ended up having eggs on their sorry faces.
Wonders never cease.
Expect ddm, to continuously twist statements of NaMo team.
NaMo has singlehandedly over years raised the profile of sm and downgraded ddm.
He has been careful in allowing every speech every tweet every plan and action displayed in his own websites.
He has taken the winds out of the Congi media ably assisted by his supporters.
This time super eager Congo acolytes assembled together a rag tag sikular bunch to write to ombaba in a game of one-upmanship amongst themselves.
Ended up having eggs on their sorry faces.
Wonders never cease.

Expect ddm, to continuously twist statements of NaMo team.
NaMo has singlehandedly over years raised the profile of sm and downgraded ddm.
He has been careful in allowing every speech every tweet every plan and action displayed in his own websites.
He has taken the winds out of the Congi media ably assisted by his supporters.