Indus Water Treaty

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chaanakya
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by chaanakya »

SSridhar wrote:Chaanakya, I understand where you come from on this. Let me explain my position though.

Pakistan placed largely two issues before the CoA. One was the specific question of diversion of waters from Kishenganga to Bonar Madumathi Nallah and the other was the general question of whether India was at all at liberty to use draw down flushing (DDF) except in an emergency as per the IWT. Pakistan knew well that it had no strong case in its claim that the IWT did not allow diversion of waters to another tributary of the Jhelum, though it continued to proclaim that probably as an attempt to conceal its real intention which was the DDF and generally to paint India as a villain in violation of its bilateral / international commitments. The effort partially succeeded because India slightly goofed up the response in defending its choices for managing sedimentation. The CoA has specifically said that DDF must not be used in future projects by India. It has also said that the ruling does not apply to Indian projects already in operation or under construction, whose designs have been communicated to Pakistan by India and not objected to by Islamabad.

The Neutral Expert’s ruling in the Baglihar case allowed Low Level Sluice Gates (LLGs) and allowed even DDF for managing sedimentation (but not for regular operations).Now, LLG, also known as ‘flushing’ which is used to remove already deposited sediments while ‘Drawdown’ is used to remove almost real-time incoming sediments during a flood season. Therefore, DDF may be used for a short period during a specific time when water flow and velocity of flow would to Pakistan be high anyway due to floods. Pakistan was miffed by the NE’s allowing both LLG and DDF. Pakistan’s attempt is clearly to make these Indian projects useless or ineffective as it did with Salal. What are the reasons for Pakistan’s objections to DDF ? One argument by Pakistan is that such DDF allows, through the backdoor, more live storage in the project than has been designed for as communicated to Pakistan by the Indian PIC. And the other is environmental issues downstream. Pakistan knows that the genuine reason for low-level gates or DDF is to manage the very high sedimentation in these Himalayan rivers. Pakistan has first hand experience of this in Tarbela where it is losing over 1% live storage capacity every year and a 25 ~ 30 Km long island has formed upstream of the Tarbela in the middle of the Indus and its power generators frequently shutdown. Notwithstanding Pakistani objections regarding live storage, DDF remains an effective mechanism for sedimentation and especially so in these rivers. The CoA *should* have thrown out the Pakistani objection in the larger interest of the sustainability, viability and the life cycle of the project. A fake paranoid-ridden Pakistan will conjure up all sorts of scenarios to scuttle Indian projects. Whether water is let through the DDG or LLGs or Spillways, it is eventually going to reach Pakistan and Run-of-River projects cannot store more than a week’s worth of waters per IWT anyway. I do not believe that Pakistan is worried about environmental damage to itself either resulting from a heavy discharge through DDF upstream. It is simply to make India’s position miserable, to make India appear as a violator, perk up its citizenry and generally mask its inefficient handling of its water situation. It would also like India to take the sediment load and leave so much less of a botheration for itself. Tarbela experience has taught lessons to the Pakistanis.

Annexure E, Paragraph 23 says, “When the Live Storage Capacity of a Storage Work is reduced by sedimentation India may, in accordance with the relevant provisions of this Annexure, construct new Storage Works or modify existing Storage Works so as to make up the storage capacity lost by sedimentation”. India can raise the height of the project but that would be costly and not a lasting solution. India *has* to find other means to flush the sediments into the Pakistani side. I am convinced that the CoA is not going to change its mind on the Drawdown Flushing technique. From that point of view, it is a sort of victory for Pakistan.

This, I thought, was the original question that Vipul asked.
Objection against DDF should have been thrown out by COA and I agree with you there.

Not allowing DDF in Kishanganga does pose problem of sedimentation control , but COA has not made any design changes. For future applicability, I would like to question COA power , although interpretation of treaty does fall in its domain.

But I dont fall for Paki explanation, which of course I saw on some channel being explained by Paki Lawyer , about victory in DDF and that question of diversion of water was a secondary issue. This diversion would result in making NJP more costly and unviable in the long run. As long as LLG stays , Paki fear of intentional release of water from dead storage would remain a possibility. There is no getting away from that, DDF or no DDF.

While DDF should have been stressed upon , Indian expert certainly goofed up ( was it deliberate??) Indian engineers would certainly think of additional features to counter this for this project . We are sure not going to close this chapter here. Anyway project designs of many future dams have already been communicated .

Regarding increasing the height of the dam , if you recall, this dam height was reduced to make it ROR but its foundation has not been changed. hence there remains less costly option to increase the height at a later date, just like in many other india dams we do or propose.

Pakis are reluctant to realise that their NJP is doomed forever.

I also think that *This* COA is not going to change its opinion.
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by SSridhar »

Continuing with the error on the part of CoA, we should remember that the IWT has also said, while discussing design aspects, that they must be “consistent with sound and economical design and satisfactory construction and operation” and also “unless sediment control or other technical considerations necessitate this”. On these points, DDF must surely have been allowed. The CoA grievously erred.
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by chaanakya »

That is where Indian expert goofed up. Not sure why? DDF should have been treated as settled issue. COA decision would have to be challenged or reinterpreted to suit our idea.

I have an idea that we should allow MEF through LLG during flood season. However sediment is a tricky issue anyway.

I was just browsing WAPDA website for NJP and it has achieved 53% physical progress in Tunnel construction and 24% in Financial. Of 969 MW capacity it might have to reconsider reducing it which would make per unit cost to from present Rs 10 per unit to about Rs 12-15. Funding is still not fully tied up and needs to be reworked , in my opinion.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by Theo_Fidel »

The 'expert' failed to understand and explain the problem with Himalayan rivers. With the high silt load the power station can not be run in the absence of an adequate stilling pool. Once the basin fills due to sediment, there is no longer a proper stilling pool and the power supply suffers for it. Without DDF, the LLG don't have the gradient to do their job. The CoA is of the view that alternate designs can be considered to deal with sediment. The 'expert' needs to take the time to show/prove that these alternate designs are unworkable. That is the only way the CoA will change its mind.

BTW Salal does have a LLG, though probably plugged up with sediment. wonder if we can use it now.
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by chaanakya »

LLG is not having gradient but it would have massive water column pressure. In cse of Indian design LLG and DDG are perhaps he same . what Pakistani expert argued is ROR works as barrage with gates and DSL is only for sedimentation. Sluicing design is more effective in ROR and DDF in Storage. That was accepted by COA.
However LLG is not objected to or prohibited so India can design any optimum design that it considers appropriate but withing the constraint of treaty to operate it. That i fine as long as Pakis dont make war upon India which could be unforeseen emergency.

Actual wording of he award.
In relation to the Second Dispute,

(1) Except in the case of an unforeseen emergency, the Treaty does not permit reduction
below Dead Storage Level of the water level in the reservoirs of Run-of-River Plants on
the Western Rivers.

(2) The accumulation of sediment in the reservoir of a Run-of-River Plant on the Western
Rivers does not constitute an unforeseen emergency that would permit the depletion of
the reservoir below Dead Storage Level for drawdown flushing purposes.

(3) Accordingly, India may not employ drawdown flushing at the reservoir of the
Kishenganga Hydro-Electric Plant to an extent that would entail depletion of the
reservoir below Dead Storage Level.


(4) Paragraphs B(1) and B(2) above do not apply to Run-of-River Plants that are in operation
on the date of issuance of this Partial Award. Likewise, Paragraphs B(1) and B(2) do not
apply to Run-of-River Plants already under construction on the date of issuance of this
Partial Award, the design of which, having been duly communicated by India under the
provisions of Annexure D, had not been objected to by Pakistan as provided for in
Annexure D.


C. This Partial Award imposes no further restrictions on the construction and operation of the
Kishenganga Hydro-Electric Plant,
which remain subject to the provisions of the Treaty as
interpreted in this Partial Award.
As such no further design or construction restriction is imposed on India in respect of KHEP hence it really does not address the paranoia of Pakis. All other dams for which designs have been communicated , DDF is not prohibited by virtue of B1 and B2.


The phrase " to an extent " highlighted above indicates that India may deploy DDF from the MSl to DSL but not below it. Fine with me as it would be still better than not doing DDF. The impression that DDF is prohibited is incorrect IMHO. And that is the reason , no design restriction is sought to be imposed upon India in this project. Late projects , in any case Pakistan would challenge each and all projects so we would get ample oportunity to dispute competence of present COA for future determination.

Anyway clarification and challenge is required since Sediment control is not seen as unforeseen emergency. I think war could be such a contingency??
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Chaanakya,

The silt island at Salal is many meters above the DSL. In fact it may even be above the MSL of the dam. There are several notes where engineers have indicated nervousness over dropping the water level below the MSL as the silt structure could collapse and send a catastrophic avalanche/slide at the dam. Similar concerns at Tarbela have forced several revisions to the the DSL, even thought the DSL is not silt filled. Our 'expert' should point this out to the CoA. Sluicing is a joke on himalayan rivers. DDF is essential.

DDF by definition is below DSL. Other wise it is normal dam operation.
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by chaanakya »

I was thinking more of a Partial draw down flushing rather than complete draw down flushing.

Salal could be a unique case where India had agreed to design changes suggested by Pakistan and LLG might not be designed for DDF type of orifice. not sure though.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Salal was designed for DDF. LLG was closed per paki request. Back when we used to play the paki game.

I agree that India will find reasons to do DDF. All kinds of emergencies can arise. :wink:
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by member_26255 »



A retard Paki berating India for building the new Dam on Chenab. AFAIK, we can't stop and have never stopped
any water flowing downstream, how the hell can he lie so brazenly.
He says according to IWT, the water on the 3 rivers given to Pak can be used only for 1)agricultural needs 2)electricity generation only for Kashmir valley region. Also, India attacked Nepal and destroyed the dams which Nepal was trying to build as India is the lower riparian :lol: . Then he decries the Pak fauj for having atim-bum and not being able to do anything.
chaanakya
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by chaanakya »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Salal was designed for DDF. LLG was closed per paki request. Back when we used to play the paki game.

I agree that India will find reasons to do DDF. All kinds of emergencies can arise. :wink:

Closing LLG was not a good idea. Whether it was permanently closed or provision exists but gates are closed and not used?? Need to look up on Salal fiasco in detail with reference to design.
Could be gift to some paki overtures.

The present decision of not allowing DDF below DSl ( base DDF or Complete DDF) could be a gift to Pakis. Else Indian case does not seem to be weak.

We have a track record that does not indicate, however I may wish for and unless a strong and patriotic governance at the centre is there, that we will do what we have not done so far. In all war like situations. We have not violated IWT or taken any punitive action or abrogated the treaty.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Yes, agree. I just wish the ‘expert’ understood how dire the situation is.
Mentally we think that if DSL is 100m and MSL is 103 m, then if water is regularly lowered to 100m the silt will neatly and cleanly fill to 100 m no more. The problem is this is simply not how sediment hydraulics works, per my colleague here. The problem is that reservoirs are 3D and have a length as well as depth. The sediment too has an angle of repose, even under flow conditions, and will keep filling till it gets to and above that angle. In high silt load conditions as in the Himalaya, it can often exceed 1.5 degrees even in flowing water. Any angle less than this and there will be zero/minimal down cutting or sluicing. Silt that is removed is immediately replaced by silt coming from above. There are a few old dams where the silt delta now is higher than the dam itself! This is what has happened at Salal. A 3 m gradient balances out a 100 m length of reservoir. Any longer and down cutting is running negative, meaning sediment is going to pile up at the delta. Only some means of design solution can deal with this.

I think we are now following the letter of the law. For a long time we followed the spirit of the law which meant some mode of ‘cooperation’. I think the pressing need for power, water and resources means that we will take everything that is rightfully ours. For a long time we did not do so. Right there is the source of khujli on their end.
--------------------------------

BTW 'retard Paki' is an oxymoron. Just paki does fine. Even in usa everyone understands. :)
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by sanjaykumar »

Whoa these PAkis are an excitable lot-Urdu with a deep rural Panjabi accent :shock:

That is probably a redundancy rather than an oxymoron. Paki military intelligence would be an oxymoron.
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by chaanakya »

Meanwhile At their usual self, Pakis

Ways suggested to stop India from building illegal dams

July 30, 2013
APP



LAHORE : Water experts of the Engineers Study Forum, an independent think tank, condemned India for blocking water of the Chenab river by building a number of dams. In a meeting presided over by Mian Fazal Ahmad on Monday, the forum condemned the construction of a number of dams including 850MW Ratte hydro project, 1000MW Pakaldul dam and others which had adversely affected the flow of water in the Chenab river. “It is violation of the Indus Water Treaty of 1960, the UN Charter and international laws.

which do not allow storage of water on the Chenab and Jhelum rivers and allows full use of the Jhelum and Chenab waters by Pakistan,” it added.

“International laws and the UN charter do not permit stopping or diverting the natural flow of waters to any beneficiary territory without due permission,” the forum said and urged the Pakistan government to move the International Court of Justice and the World Bank for intervention to check the violation of the Indus Water Treaty and UN laws by India.
“The Pakistan government should write to funding and donor agencies not to fund the controversial and illegal dams being built by India to stop water supplies in the Chenab and Jhelum rivers in Pakistan. A notice of damages should also be served on India in case of blockage of water supplies in the Chenab and Jhelum rivers, especially in violation of the Indus Water Treaty in which the World Bank and the UN are also parties,” it added.
With such clear intent and objectives from Pakis, India should not give in to any concessions that it might contemplate. All LLG on Dams must stay and each dam must include provision of DDF. While using it for Partial DDF. That should be enough to give them nightmare and cost them whatever little money they are left with now. Afterall we cant foresee unforeseen events.
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by manjgu »

just came back from a visit to Baglihar !! what a awesome sight !!...jai hind... :)
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by neeraj »

^^^^^^
Please share pics
SSridhar
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by SSridhar »

Isn't photography prohibited at Baglihar ?
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by manjgu »

no pics boss... PHOTOGRAPHY STRICTLY PROHIBITED !!
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by manjgu »

i could have taken pics from the road but didnt have the sense after the awe inspiring views....
chaanakya
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by chaanakya »

And to think of it, Pakis have full technical design set of the Dam and photus courtesy IWT :D
Peregrine
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Indus Water Treaty

Post by Peregrine »

Water warriors

Ask anyone in Pakistan : what shall the two neighbours, India and Pakistan, fight their next war on, and you are likely to get a consensus on the answer: water. Not that it is necessarily true, but that is the current creed, built on a half-baked and semi-literate discourse pedalled on a daily basis in the mainstream media.

Why is this done? And, why is such a narrative successfully entrenching itself? The answer to both dilemmas lies in the domain of partial inquiry that beguiles this developing thought. Those who pass as experts are only half that. None is taught the field of hydrology or even has basic education in water. In such a barren landscape, shorn of water wit, if the dominating belief is that India is selling Pakistan’s electricity extracted from stolen Pakistani waters, or even more insidiously, is sending our way water minus its electricity, show me the way to Mars.

This Martian existence has other dimensions, too. The present adviser on water and power to the government is a pharmacist by training. The PPP government had a medical doctor as the minister in charge for petroleum and natural resources for most of its five years, who reportedly had something to do with inducting the pharmacist. Not exactly a reassuring lineage. But listen to the current adviser on water talk of the power travails and his prescription for alleviating the curse of persistent power cuts, and you are likely to come out singing his praises. Whether he has ever been close to a real grid station though, is another issue altogether.

With premier slots in the government open to glib fly-by-night experts, competition is bound to rise. That, in essence, is the underlying causality for the current band of water warriors spewing venom at one another and on anything that emerges from the inner sanctums of government as the way forward out of the power morass.

The basic construct of the Indus Basin Water Treaty, which governs water relations between India and Pakistan, was luckily constituted in English — translations, too, are available — and anyone with a basic sense of science and geography should be able to understand the essence of what this excellent piece of agreement contains as the guiding principles to keep waters flowing. The treaty has stood the test of three-and-a-half wars, and many near ones since, when all else failed between the two states.

The problem is, not many have opened up the treaty and its various annexes to correctly define and identify the rules for run-of-the river projects and permitted levels for domestic, consumptive, non-consumptive and agricultural use. Similarly, what is India permitted as ‘pondage’, as against ‘storage’ that she is frequently indicted for in the Pakistani narrative? Cumulative storage in ‘pondage’ is not to exceed 3.6 million acre-feet (MAF). Do we know how much India is actually storing? A recent figure suggested over 200 MAF in popular discourse in Pakistan. Pakistan’s total share of the three western rivers averages 117 MAF. From where is India managing to store more than 200 MAF from the same rivers? And these are Pakistan’s rivers. Since we don’t read, we become easy prey for the disinformation that goes around on such critical issues.

India and Pakistan each store roughly the same amount of water (16 MAF) from their allotted rivers in the Indus Water Treaty; yet, India produces 12,700MW of power from their three rivers, compared with Pakistan’s 6,717MW only from the three western rivers. From Chenab alone, India recovers 8,700MW, while Pakistan extracts only 14MW. It is a dynamic of finances — of which India has plenty more — and of topography that India exploits better. Our woes are many; in water, too, but we must begin by husbanding our resources better.

A recent television discussion on water wars counted a civil engineer, a fighter-pilot, a man who runs a private security company and two journalists as experts. Pity the listening audience. The landscape is droughty and barren and the impostors have an easy ride. Ferret out the water-literate and put them to work.

Cheers Image
SSridhar
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by SSridhar »

^ What happened to this jihadi fighter pilot to prompt him to write an article like that ?
Anujan
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by Anujan »

He is a track-2'er these days.
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by Vipul »

Yeah. Don't be taken in by his half attempted and put-on reasonableness.This Track IIer is the RAPEiest of them, i have been following him across all the paki current affairs program where any tom dick and harry is called an expert or an "anal"yst.
He is no less in his bombastic claims and sheikchilli thoughts then those experts he is berating. From his talks and various articles it is clear that he expects Indians to believe what the Paki Track IIers say about Siachen and Kashmir and also that India will withdraw.He gets his tush on fire easily if he is challenged on this.
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by manjgu »

any upcoming updates on IWT arbitration?? on KG project?
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by member_26255 »

A question to Guru's. Does the 1972 Simla agreement of resolving issues bilaterally overrules the Indus water treaty dispute resolution through third party mediation?
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by SSridhar »

agastya, are you referring to the Neutral Expert or the Court of Arbitration as third parties ? There is no other third party involved in IWT than the World Bank whose role also ended with the facilitation of the Treaty. The WB cannot arbitrate on disputes. The Simla Agreement has no references to the IWT.
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by chaanakya »

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2013/08 ... ood-water/
Thursday, 22 Aug 2013 7:28 am | Comments

Pakistan Indus Water Commissioner Mirza Asif Ali Baig termed the news of India releasing water without warning as baseless. Going by the provisions of the Indus Water Treaty, India informs Pakistan on time before releasing excessive water.


The level of water is checked with India after every six hours which is now lowered down to every three hours. A flood cell has been constituted which stays in contact with the Indian side 24/7 and passes on the information to the irrigation department.
Even if India informs us on the release of water on time we cannot take effective measures in minimising the estimated loss on which India should not be blamed. Excessive water coming from the Indian side damages India before damaging Pakistan.
Damages are mainly caused as people settle on dimmed river channels and are washed away when the water is released. Government should take steps in educating the settlers.

The media is requested to project factual information and investigate thoroughly before going up with the news
Well how long before PPIC turns tails and seeks refuge in Canada like his predecessor?
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by chaanakya »

A new book separates legal facts from jingoistic fiction.

Ignore the slanted media reports in Pakistan these days about how India is stealing Pakistan’s Chenab River waters by building numerous dams over it for the generation of electricity. These reports ignore the fact that the Indus Waters Treaty of 1960 allows upper-riparian India to dam the rivers allocated to Pakistan, according to certain specifications, to produce electricity without any diversion of waters that belong exclusively to Pakistan.


Saiyid Ali Naqvi’s Indus Waters and Social Change: the Evolution and Transition of Agrarian Society in Pakistan (Rs. 2,900, Oxford University Press Pakistan) looks at Indus waters and their importance to Pakistan. Anyone who wants to know the real story of each Pakistani river and its irrigation barrages should read this 796-page work from the former Asian Development Bank officer who worked on a number of water resources and rural development projects in the Philippines, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Laos, Vietnam, China, Indonesia, and Pakistan.

Pakistan is lucky as a lower riparian to have a water treaty with upper-riparian India; and the book tells us what we went through before it was finally signed in 1960.

Thanks to JLNehru
The Inter-Dominion Agreement on the Canal Water Dispute, signed by India and Pakistan at New Delhi on May 4, 1948, restored the canal water flows that India had choked off. Through this agreement, India made clear its intent to use all of the water of the rivers in question; the agreement merely allowed Pakistan time to find alternative sources to replace the lost water.

To make matters worse for Pakistan, its West Punjab government was notified by India’s East Punjab government that this agreement would be discontinued on Sept. 4, 1948. Pakistan’s foreign minister appealed to the Indian prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, to continue water supplies to West Punjab and to the Sindh irrigation systems until the two governments could reach a final agreement. Nehru responded that supplies would be continued temporarily, and with no commitment for the future.

A few weeks later, on Oct. 24, 1948, Nehru informed the Pakistani government by telegram that the East Punjab government was under no obligation to continue the supply of water to West Punjab, and that in any future discussion of the matter “full right of the East Punjab government to reduce the supplies at will must be recognized.”

A further indication of India’s intentions came when construction work began in late 1948 on the Harike Barrage, upstream of the Ferozpur Barrage, at the confluence of the Beas and Sutlej. It was clear that the Harike Barrage would make it possible for India to completely abandon the Ferozpur Barrage and shut down supplies of water to Pakistan’s Sutlej Valley canals. Pakistan tried to appeal to the International Court of Justice in June 1949, but India refused to participate. Instead, India urged that the Inter-Dominion Agreement of May 4, 1948, be made permanent.

Then came the Indus Waters Treaty, leveraged with funds from the World Bank for new canals and dams for the two newly-independent but financially broke states. The Treaty said: “India shall be under obligation to let flow all waters of the western rivers, and shall not permit any interference with these waters, except for the following uses, restricted in the case of each of the river drainage basins of the Indus, Jhelum, and Chenab: (a) domestic use, (b) non-consumptive use, (c) specified agricultural use, and (d) generation of hydroelectric power.”

Pakistan and India need normalization of relations, followed by free trade and territorial connectivity, to cooperate on the fast-depleting waters of South Asia. Pakistan has lost all cases of arbitration it has brought against India so far, which simply proves that the media is once again favoring war with India instead of peace. Slanted media reports about India stealing Pakistan’s waters are planted to cause alarm and resultant jingoism for another war with India that Pakistan will surely lose.
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by chaanakya »

Officials involved in violating water treaty go scot-free
ISLAMABAD - The PML-N government made a startling revelation in the Senate on Friday, saying an inquiry committee – constituted to assess negligence on part of some officials regarding violations committed by India of the Indus Water Treaty by building dozens of dams on rivers flowing into Pakistan – has exonerated all officials, including former Water Commissioner Syed Jamat Ali Shah, and no one had been held responsible for the negligence.

Earlier, Jamat Ali Shah had been accused of accepting bribes from India for his covert cooperation in the matter. Shah later left the country in January 2012 despite being put on the exit control list.


In a written reply submitted with the Senate, Minister for Water and Power Khwaja Mohammad Asif admitted the fact that India had made several violations of the treaty including violation of design criteria in case of Baglihar Hydroelectric Plant (HEP) on ChenabRiver.

However, he did not elaborate why the officials had been exonerated. The minister said that at present, two disputes were active between Pakistan and India - Kishenganga case which was in the Court of Arbitration and Wullar Barrage/Tulbul Navigation Project, which was under discussion at the government-level between the two countries.

“There were disputes between the two countries on Salal Hydropower Project and Baglihar Dam, but the first was resolved by discussions between the two governments while the later was taken to Neutral Expert who decided the matter in 2007”.

The minister added that at present, India had provided designs of four projects on ChenabRiver – Ratle Hydroelectric Project (HEP), Lower Kalnai HEP, Miyar HEP and Pakal Dul storage project.

“The designs of these projects have been evaluated by Pakistan and objections communicated to India. The objections on the first three were discussed in the last meeting of the Indus Commission held in Lahore in March 2013. Further discussions will be held on designs of all the four HEPs in the next meeting of the Indus Commission expected to be held in August 2013,” Asif said.

“In 2006, India started construction without informing Pakistan of 44MW Chutak HEP on SuruRiver, a tributary of the Indus. In August 2008, India started initial filling of dead storage of Baglihar HEP without consultation with Pakistan. India's design which involved diversion of waters of KishengangaRiver to JhelumBasin would adversely affect environment and hydroelectric use downstream of Line of Control in AJK was without consideration of the relevant treaty provisions. Moreover, India's design of Nimoo Bazgo HEP violated certain provisions of the Treaty,” the statement added.

However, the minister added that no inquiry had been constituted to assess negligence on part of Pakistani institutions.

“An inquiry committee was constituted against the former Pakistan Commissioner for Indus Waters, Syed Jamat Ali Shah. According to the findings of the committee, Shah was exonerated from the charges placed against him. As inquiry committees constituted to assess negligence on part of some officials have not held anybody responsible for negligence, the answer to this question is to be taken as nil,” the statement added.


The minister admitted that since January 2000, India committed a number of violations of the Indus Water Treaty. These pertained to the categories including not following the design criteria given in the treaty (e.g. Baglihar and Kishenganga dams), starting construction without informing Pakistan (Chutak Hydroelectric Plant constructed on a tributary of the Indus River) and not following the operational provisions (e.g. first filling of Baglihar dam).

“On all these violations, either the government of Pakistan checked Indian violation per the dispute resolution mechanism given in the treaty or did not press its objections where there was no impact on Pakistan or India provided plausible justification of its designs”.


About the steps taken by the government of Pakistan upon violations by India during the last four years, the minister stated that in case of Baglihar, Pakistan took up the case with a neutral expert who determined that Pakistan's objections were valid in three of four design parameters on which Pakistan had objected.

“One objection pertaining to crest level of spillway was decided in India's favour; the decision of NE on spillway clearly ignored the relevant treaty provisions. The basis on which the neutral expert gave decision has now been rejected by the Court of Arbitration in Kishenganga Case. Regarding start of construction of Chutak HEP, Pakistan commissioner for Indus Waters took up the matter with India at the highest level and India provided the design of the project in November 2007”.


The minister added that Pakistan strongly protested on initial filling of Baglihar plant without involving Pakistan and after discussions in many meetings and site visits, India assured Pakistan that it would be careful in future in such cases.

“Regarding Kishenganga, Pakistan has challenged diversion of water to Indian-held Kashmir and substantiated that the design would adversely impact the environment and hydel power generation in Pakistan, which was in violation of the treaty provisions. Proceedings of the case have been completed and Partial Award has been announced. The final decision would be given in December 2013.”



The minister added that the case of Chutak HEP has been settled at the level of Permanent Indus Commission.


With reference to taking of Nimoo-Bazgo Hydroelectric Project case to the neutral expert, the statement said the matter was considered in the backdrop of an earlier experience which Pakistan had regarding Baglihar Dam of India, in which case neutral expert had not given ruling in our favour.

“Hence, in view of this fact and in larger interest of the country, it was decided not to take the matter to the Neutral Expert. Rather, it was deemed proper to follow an alternative course of action by taking the issue of legal interpretation of certain clauses of Indus Waters Treaty to the Court of Arbitration”.
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by anupmisra »

chaanakya wrote:http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2013/08 ... ood-water/
Well how long before PPIC turns tails and seeks refuge in Canada like his predecessor?
Wasn't that the idea in the first place?
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

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chaanakya wrote:Officials involved in violating water treaty go scot-free
India started construction without informing Pakistan of 44MW Chutak HEP ...the case of Chutak HEP has been settled at the level of Permanent Indus Commission.

:rotfl:
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

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SSridhar wrote:agastya, are you referring to the Neutral Expert or the Court of Arbitration as third parties ? There is no other third party involved in IWT than the World Bank whose role also ended with the facilitation of the Treaty. The WB cannot arbitrate on disputes. The Simla Agreement has no references to the IWT.

As the pakis themselves admit, they are darned lucky to have such a treaty in place and fortunate to have India as a partner. Anyone else would have had the Simla agreement override all prior agreements on resolving all future disputes. This love affair with the pakis has to stop.
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Indus Water Treaty

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Blaming it on India, falsely

That India releases excessive water into Pakistan as a ploy to destroy its agriculture is a perception created by the religious right and the media

Along with the persistent rains causing flash floods in Pakistan, the release of water in the Pakistani rivers by India, allegedly to push Pakistan in a crisis situation, is a source of tension between the people of India and Pakistan.

The propagandists term the release of water as “sudden” making almost impossible for Pakistan to take effective measures, an accusation which the officials of meteorological department and Indus Water Commission deny.

According to reports, a few days back, the authorities concerned issued flood warning to villages and settlements along the banks of the river Chenab near Marala, Khanki, Qadirabad, Trimmu headworks and other areas after India released more than 100,000 cusecs of water into the river. Then, for the second time, India released water into Sutlej, a step which is termed as starting a ‘water war’ with Pakistan. The situation helps extremists groups to propagate in the local media.

Pakistan’s Indus Water Commissioner, Mirza Asif Ali Beig, however, says India did not release water suddenly. “The water damaging Pakistani land and areas first damaged the Indian territory before falling into the Pakistani side,” he maintains.

Section six and seven of the Indus Water Treaty between Pakistan and India, say India is bound to inform Pakistan before releasing excessive water in its rivers. “Acting according to the treaty, India informs Pakistan in time before releasing extra water.”

During the monsoon, the level of water is checked with India after every six hours, which is now lowered down to every three hours, while a flood cell has been constituted which stays in contact with the Indian side round the clock,” informs Beig.

The information was also passed on to the Irrigation Department, which measures the amount of water coming from the other side, estimates the projected loss, and advises precautionary measures.

“India informed us in time before releasing water,” says Chief Meteorologist of Pakistan, Muhammad Riaz. “The information was then passed on to the Punjab government.”

According to the rules of the treaty, India got control over the three eastern rivers, the Ravi, Sutlej and Beas; while Pakistan got the western ones, the Indus, Jehlum and Chenab.

In the past, Pakistan and India have agreed in principle on a need to set up an independent office of the Indus Water Commission (IWC), comprising neutral experts from outside the South Asian region with an unblemished record and integrity to avert wars on water issues between the two nuclear states. SSridharji : Is this correct?

Both sides also agreed for installation of satellite-based real-time telemetry system in the Indian-held Kashmir at a minimum of 100 locations for monitoring water quantity. This would also help remove mistrust on data exchange between the two countries.
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

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Pakistan's Water Woes - Sajjad Ashraff, Instt of South Asian Studies, Singapore
"No specific evidence [is] brought forth so far that India is actually obstructing the flow or is
diverting the waters” concedes Ahmer Bilal Soofi, the former caretaker law minister. And yet, Pakistani media and politicians blame India for controlling the flow of water to the detriment of Pakistan. Such a course merely blinds the policy makers and the public to the impending crisis that is of Pakistan’s own making and to which there is a no short
- term solution.
Perhaps India and the world community could come forward in the interest of regional harmony and help Pakistan prepare for this looming crisis.
Oh, India wa most generous in letting most of the water assets of the Indus System of Rivers flow to Pakistan, India has been most generous in sticking to the letter and spirit of the IWT and India most generously funded the various structures built in Pakistan as a result of the IWT agreement even though India herself was not having much foreign exchange reserves at that time. And, we have seen how Pakistan has repaid in kind over the last 50 years after the IWT was signed.

Why haven't the Pakistanis been endowed with shame or gratitude ? To whose cruelty shall we blame the lack of these two characteristics in the TSP gene ?
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

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SSridhar wrote:Pakistan's Water Woes - Sajjad Ashraff, Instt of South Asian Studies, Singapore

[Why haven't the Pakistanis been endowed with shame or gratitude?. To whose cruelty shall we blame the lack of these two characteristics in the TSP gene ?
Being Pakistanis they have all human behaviour removed from their DNA. This cruelty has been imposed on the Pakistani People by Jinnah and his Coterie of the Leadership of the Indian Sub-Continents Muslims TOLERATED AND ENCOURAGED buy the so-called Liberal, Secular etc. Indian Hindus' Leadership.

MODS : PLEASE EXCUSE THE OFF TOPIC REMARK : The Indian Population is OVER EIGTHY PERCENT NON-MUSLIM. However, an Overwhelming Majority of the Meat Available in India - Chicken, Lamb, Goat - is HALAL.

Now to the reasons of Pakistan's Dwindling Water Supply :
Most disturbingly Pakistan’s politicians are oblivious to the fast-depleting resource...leaving the field open to chauvinistic and often misleading rhetoric in Pakistan’s dime-a-dozen talk shows.

Pakistan’s population is ballooning....Illegal logging and removal of forest cover have denuded Pakistan’s rangelands, thus causing annual flash floods that result in heavy collateral damage.

In addition to the waste, Pakistan is also contaminating its water,...Excessive use of water in agriculture and wastage has exacerbated a bad water situation which has reached alarming levels.

With availability falling Pakistan’s water scarcity is a ticking time bomb. ...The situation, if not tackled on war-footing, will affect agricultural production, industry and exacerbate inter-provincial disharmony in Pakistan.

The shortages will adversely affect relations with India...Perhaps India and the world
community could come forward in the interest of regional harmony and help Pakistan prepare
for this looming crisis.
SSridhar Ji : Pakistan's Woes - Water and Others - are ALL Self Created and they cannot even Blame God - far less India - for their self-afflicted Woes!

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

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Pakistan Objects to 4 Indian Projects on Chenab River - ToI
Pakistan has raised objections to four power projects being built by India on the Chenab river on the ground that they allegedly violate the Indus Waters Treaty.

The projects include the 850-MW Ratle power project and the 1,000-MW Pakal Dul hydroelectric plant, minister of state for privatization Khurram Dastgir told the National Assembly or lower house of parliament.

Information on these plants was received by Pakistan last year and Islamabad objected to their designs, he said during question hour yesterday.

Pakistan has raised the issue with India at all levels. A protest about the alleged reduction of water flow in the Chenab was lodged with India by the Permanent Indus Waters Commission and the Foreign Office, he said.

The Indian Commissioner for Indus Waters had been asked to provide complete information about these projects, he added.

Dastgir said India had recently started construction of the Ratle power project and Pakal Dul hydroelectric plant.

He contended that under the Indus Waters Treaty, restrictions were imposed on the design and operation of hydroelectric plants, storage works and other river works to be constructed by India on western rivers.

The treaty provides a procedure for settling disputes and any issue between the two sides is first examined by the Indus Waters Commission. If the Commission fails to resolve the issue, diplomatic channels are used to settle the matter or it can be referred to a neutral expert or court of arbitration, he added.
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by sanjaykumar »

The shortages will adversely affect relations with India...Perhaps India and the world
community could come forward in the interest of regional harmony and help Pakistan prepare
for this looming crisis.



Oh goody, another gun to hold against one's Paki head.
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

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Peregrine wrote:Blaming it on India, falsely

In the past, Pakistan and India have agreed in principle on a need to set up an independent office of the Indus Water Commission (IWC), comprising neutral experts from outside the South Asian region with an unblemished record and integrity to avert wars on water issues between the two nuclear states.
SSridharji : Is this correct?
Peregrine ji, I am sorry I saw your question late. I think he is referring to the provisions in the IWT for appointing a Neutral Expert or a Court of Arbitration. There is no other 'in principle' agreement outside of the IWT framework that I am aware of.
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Indus Water Treaty

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SSridhar wrote:
Peregrine wrote:Blaming it on India, falsely

In the past, Pakistan and India have agreed in principle on a need to set up an independent office of the Indus Water Commission (IWC), comprising neutral experts from outside the South Asian region with an unblemished record and integrity to avert wars on water issues between the two nuclear states.
SSridharji : Is this correct?
Peregrine ji, I am sorry I saw your question late. I think he is referring to the provisions in the IWT for appointing a Neutral Expert or a Court of Arbitration. There is no other 'in principle' agreement outside of the IWT framework that I am aware of.
SSridhar Ji :

Many thanks indeed.

Paki speakth with "Forked Tongue"!

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

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SSridhar wrote:Why haven't the Pakistanis been endowed with shame or gratitude ?
Sridhar, it is all part of the cyclical process that pakis go through with every ego/self worth/H&D damaging issue.

1. First Ignore it (What me, worry?)
2. Then Deny it (Doesn't happen here or islam does not permit it)
3. Then call it out as an equal equal (Hey, it happened in your backyard too)
4. Then apportion blame (It happened, if it happened, because of .....(Fill in the blank))
5. Then threaten (we know who is responsible and if you dont stop it we will blow ourselves up - we are a nuclear power)
6. Then blame each other (all the fly by night think tanks get together and blame it on mushy, zia, duspercenti, lack of moral fiber, no clear direction, no money, no water...)
7. Lastly, beg (for forgiveness, help, money, understanding, compassion, equal-equal, brotherhood of south asians...)
8. Rinse and repeat cycle again in two to three years time when public memory has faded.
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