Indian Autos Thread

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jul 2013 09:37

saw the review of skoda yeti.. pretty good car. your wife would not be wrong going for it, any it is VW engineering. btw, ensure she gets a 4x4 at the very least. nice roomy back, foldable and removable seats, lot of head and leg room and accessories.

if manual shift, check if it has hill hold feature. my subaru outback hill holds happens only when the angle is above 6-8*.

Sagrawal · Post by **Sagrawal** » 18 Jul 2013 08:55

just read that Ford ES has got 30k bookings so far. I am sure many of them just booked it for looks without even a test drive.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 21 Jul 2013 12:41

Skoda Yeti came out to be one of the best cars in UK to be owned last year. Try and test ride it.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 21 Jul 2013 12:45

Prius always had Atkinson cycle engine as far as I know, they are supposed to be more fuel efficient but you can see much lower acceleration on these cars compared to diesel automatic ones.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 21 Jul 2013 14:20

otto is your regular cycle.

think about the effort needed to compress, when the piston is coming up to the TDC (top dead centre).

in miller and atkinson, there is a delay in the closing of the intake valve, so that some of the charge is pushed back out. miller uses a supercharger to compress the charge.

to add to the conphoosion, originally these cycles were invented to avoid the patents given to otto on 4 cycle engines. nowadays, cars use the names miller and atkinson but what it means have changed from the days these cycles were invented to modern day engines.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 21 Jul 2013 19:45

any it is VW engineering

the Czechs may say its their engineering

- just because VW owns it

Skodas seem to be damn solid and reliable -

VW may worry about them eating their VW brand

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2013 20:15

VW has someone become one of the largest auto cos in the world now. so their engineering cant be all that bad if such sales volume.
they have turned around audi for sure and generally lead bmw and merc in sales in most major markets , even in small markets like india they have moved ahead.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 21 Jul 2013 21:21

i am still annoyed at most foreign brands who enter our market with absolutely no respect for us..with an attitude of 'this is enough for these unwasheds'..

VW entering with their lesser brand skoda and that being considered as "premium"

toyota entering with obsolete models and passing off feature less models as 'premium' at premium prices..

only honda has tried something for us, with their diesel amaze.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jul 2013 22:11

pandyan could you just list out the drawbacks on VW engineering.. they have come a long way. a remarkable component is their TDI engines. and their passat lines have really come of age since 2010. they are better than ford and gm.

none can actually understand our market.. like i listed out sometimes back. we need a hond-crv at mahindra prices, we need a prius at maruti prices. we need next gen autos with ambassador quality on safety.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 21 Jul 2013 22:19

no...we need a CRV at CEV price. we need a prius at prius price.

what is a commuter sedan in every other country in the world, needs to be sold as a commuter sedan here too. not at hugely inflated premium car prices.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jul 2013 23:34

reliability: gotta give that to toyota. right configuration for india is a price down subaru outback. or better still would be having toyota court the subaru symmetrical awd system. ideal for desh roads.

in addition to hill hold, other useful feature for desh traffic are the sensors that warn nearby vehicles, automatic braking system, and some advanced situation aware sensors.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jul 2013 06:43

Our import duties are fairly high. That drives up cost of new models esp low volume higher end ones where its not sensible to localize everything. Even for local makes i am told 50% of onroad cost is mix of central and state taxes. Things are simply not rigged to let indians enjoy cars since by defn he who owns a car is aspirational and not a supine sikular handout needy vote bank and hence she or he must be suitably punished and deflated.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 22 Jul 2013 06:50

Singha wrote:Our import duties are fairly high. That drives up cost of new models esp low volume higher end ones where its not sensible to localize everything. Even for local makes i am told 50% of onroad cost is mix of central and state taxes. Things are simply not rigged to let indians enjoy cars since by defn he who owns a car is aspirational and not a supine sikular handout needy vote bank and hence she or he must be suitably punished and deflated.

+1. And the bad roads just add to it. In spite of this the automobile industry in India has grown by leaps and bounds in many cases manufacturing parts for foreign OEMs as well. Easing of taxes and other duties in this sector will make car ownership cheaper and that will have an effect on the supply chain providers etc and lead to greater benefits for economy.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jul 2013 07:08

we should off shoot products to civilian space from drdo labs, like massan darpa. but then this all should be only to kick and jumpstart component mftrg.. and once market stabilizes, it will act on its own.

Abhijeet · Post by **Abhijeet** » 22 Jul 2013 08:11

I don't think most companies come into a market with an attitude to screw the consumer or to push inferior products. They do what they can within the parameters they have. India's car market is still fairly small, doesn't have a lot of competition at anything other than the base (A) segment, and has high taxes. The result is overpriced, under-equipped cars.

A while back someone mentioned that though it's ridiculous to sell the Corolla as a luxury car in India, when you add taxes on top of a base price of Rs. 8 lakh ($16,000) you get Rs. 14 lakh ($28,000) which is not that far from luxury car prices even in developed countries. The BMW 3 series in the US, for example, starts at an MSRP of $32,550, and you can get significant discounts off MSRP when actually purchasing one.

In other words, it's our own damn fault for the most part.

As an aside, Indian cars seem to be getting smaller and smaller. I saw some photos of the Datsun Go and it seems to be about half the size of a golf cart. The reviewer went on about its "bold" lines where I just saw a blob.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 22 Jul 2013 08:48

pandyan wrote:Then I read about Mazda's atkinson implementation. Looks like in direct injection engines they ensure that charge does not escape when intake valve is open; they timed the injection after valve closed and just before firing.

What is the benefit though of an atkinson engine other than the complexity that it introduces?

imo, they are trying for higher efficiencies when you are not flooring the pedal.

sophisticated cars these days have processors to switch cycles from efficiency to sporty based on your driving inputs...

imo, prius does this too and it is made even more complex with the addition of the batter drives. no wonder, other carmakers just lease the tech off toyota instead of developing an alternative in house.

cars are getting complexer and complexer..i am thinking in another 10 years, it will become something that only their engineers can understand and we only know enough to start it and drive it.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jul 2013 09:00

I think our road and country infrastructure should have a plan for car use by standard to get some level playing on car as a necessity for living in desh. it is going to be eons from now to get there.. and the market will be shaped by restricted entries and captive market.

massan standards for roads and infrastructure is a dream for desh.. and I am sure it is wrong to compare that way.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 01 Aug 2013 10:24

http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-sh ... 0801.htm#1

Tata Motors in collaboration with the ISRO (Indian Space Research Organization) have developed the country’s first Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus.

The bus was demonstrated at the Liquid Propulsions Systems Center in an ISRO facility located in Mahendragiri, Tamil Nadu last Sunday.

The CNG-based vehicle features Hydrogen stored in high-pressure bottles on the top of the bus.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 01 Aug 2013 14:47

Automotive buffs..

On the planning mode to buy a new vehicle during the course of next year. Checked up a few web sites. Too many reviews, or in case of specialist web sites (like TeamBHP) it is too technical or opinionated. So if the Gurus can give a few potential leads, I can slowly start working on specifications

A few random thoughts.
1. I really require a Diesel vehicle. The intra-city commuting distance has increased, and over the last 3-4 years majority of the trips to "100% literate state" has been on the car (easily clock 1000 odd kms over a week end).
2. In the immediate future I dont see me driving around with a family/group of 7-8 odd people. Maximum would be around 5-6 people. But a vehicle which allows us to carry a good pay-load of coconuts, coconut oil, assorted groceries would really help.
3. Being on the taller side, prefer having a vehicle with good leg space and a bit of a "wide space" look.
4. The roads I travel are generally tarred roads (national highways, state highways etc.), but a some times I do have to drive on untarred roads.
5. SHQ is now promoted to a Passenger driver (from the post of Shunter driver) so a vehicle which would be easy to operate by women would be a good benefit.
6. I am not a racing driver, do not believe in over speeding.

PS: My current vehicle is a Maruti Suzuki Wagon R, and I liked its "Tall boy" look.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 01 Aug 2013 14:54

Hard to get one that satisfies all your need, if you want good leg room chances are it wont be that tall, and you wont get good storage space as well. I dont even known whether there is any car that suits all your needs. I think you could probably check out their new wagon R, it has diesel option

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 01 Aug 2013 15:08

krishnan wrote:I dont even known whether there is any car that suits all your needs. I think you could probably check out their new wagon R, it has diesel option

The new Wagon R seems to be not doing well. BTW, the current Wagon R I have does meet most of the requirements except the huge boot space. Now looking for a slightly bigger vehicle. How is Xylo? Vehicles like Bolero looks to Police-ish, so do not prefer that.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 01 Aug 2013 15:15

Dunno , i am mostly a bike guy , only SHQ is really interested in cars these days. Xylo seems to be doing good. Maybe you could try the toyota one, and modify it a bit t get some good space in the back

manish · Post by **manish** » 01 Aug 2013 20:26

Sachin wrote: The new Wagon R seems to be not doing well. BTW, the current Wagon R I have does meet most of the requirements except the huge boot space. Now looking for a slightly bigger vehicle. How is Xylo? Vehicles like Bolero looks to Police-ish, so do not prefer that.

Sachin-saar, you must get one in white and then watch the fun as auto-wallahs and yahoos on two wheelers/Swifts try to keep a safe distance from you for the fear of you being a pulis afsar!

On a more serious note, if you frequently travel with less than 5 people AND need a spacious, reliable people mover under 10L, consider the Ertiga which is aeons ahead of the Xylo in terms of refinement and interior quality. If you don't mind a slightly more yuppie and slightly less functional vehicle, can think of the diesel Trendline model of the Ecosport too which should be under 10L on-road, like a few of the Ertiga variants.

However, none of these can beat the Xylo in Cu ft/rupee or engine Cubic Capacity/rupee. It also doesn't hurt that they have recently swapped out the old mEagle engine with the much better mHawk units from the Scorpio. If you really need all the space and have budget below 10-11L there isn't really all that much you can get besides a Xylo unless you are ready for the absolute bare-bones Innova.

If you don't have a budget constraint, Innova continues to be the best choice in the segment IMVHO, despite it being 8+ yrs in the market with little change in the looks/features department over the years. I personally feel that few cars can hold a candle to it when it comes to long distance highway mile crunching. This would certainly count on your trips out of BLR concrete jungle during getaways.

But a BIG problem with either Innova or Xylo would be their suitability as a daily driver - even there I would pick the Innvoa over the Xylo as it tends to have much more stable, almost car-like behaviour on the road and can sometimes surprise with the ease with which you can move around in it (for its size of course!)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2013 21:36

how is the nissan evalia..somewhat ertigaish
http://www.nissanevalia.co.in/home.html

Abhijeet · Post by **Abhijeet** » 02 Aug 2013 03:57

manish wrote:If you don't have a budget constraint, Innova continues to be the best choice in the segment IMVHO, despite it being 8+ yrs in the market with little change in the looks/features department over the years.

Manish, why do think there isn't more innovation/churn in the Indian auto market? That's a very long time for a vehicle to not only remain static but also not be trumped by something better.

habal · Post by **habal** » 02 Aug 2013 09:55

You must understand why a 'lemon law' was never imposed on Indian car manufacturers. They pay heavy ghoos to all & sundry to survive. And then there are central taxes. It is a very unimaginative & unaffordab le market beyond the sub 1.5 ltr hatchbacks. Before Innova there used to be a breadbox called qualis which again hung around like stink for 8+ years before being reluctantly replaced.

Innova will surely be replaced by another tin can that will this time be above 13L+ ex-showroom base model.

A lot of half-hearted piecemeal attempts have been made by other manufacturers to take on Innova. Aria, Evalia, Ertiga, Xylo etc etc. First is product of Tata QC, doesn't inspire confidence. Second is poor seats for 2nd row. Third has poor seats for third row and 5 & 6 are a squeeze. Fourth used to be barge like during lane-changes, but they are working on that it seems. Some improvement in latest models so work-in-progress have greatly reduced the barge like swaying/rocking movement on lane changes.

But if you live in big Indian cities like Delhi or Bangalore, then you should go for Mahindra Jeep or a Tata/Leyland Truck for piece of mind alone.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 02 Aug 2013 10:06

manish wrote:However, none of these can beat the Xylo in Cu ft/rupee or engine Cubic Capacity/rupee. It also doesn't hurt that they have recently swapped out the old mEagle engine with the much better mHawk units from the Scorpio.

Has any one tried out the Mahindra Quanto (a kind of chopped down version of Xylo)? Did some initial checkups, and it seems to fit most of the requirements. But have not really seen too many of them on the roads. When it comes to vehicles, I am more on the practical/bare bone necessities kind of person.

manish · Post by **manish** » 02 Aug 2013 20:58

Sachin wrote: Has any one tried out the Mahindra Quanto (a kind of chopped down version of Xylo)? Did some initial checkups, and it seems to fit most of the requirements. But have not really seen too many of them on the roads. When it comes to vehicles, I am more on the practical/bare bone necessities kind of person.

Am not too sure I would seriously consider the Quanto if I were you saar.

On paper, it has everything going for it (if you can erm..digest the way it looks - totally awkward - the back end comes way too abruptly betraying the chop-job to get under 4m laws. Makes the old FIAT Multipla look beautiful and proportioned and from certain angles, it could compete with its Korean cousin SsangYong's Rodius)

1.5L diesel mill, 100hp on tap, fairly spacious, could take a fair bit of punishment...but in reality the looks, the engineering, the fit & finish all seem to be a bit off.

First up, the vehicle's quite heavy for its size (betraying its truck roots again there) and 100hp doesn't really seem to translate into an exciting power/weight ratio that one would perhaps expect.

I have heard lots of people complain about its not-so-great ride and handling, so take a long test drive over different surfaces and roads/routes before you decide. Mind you, this is a perennial complaint about Mahindras and particularly true of the Xylo (the handling at least) on which it is based.

And less said about the interior, the better. Most of the early Xyols were just awful there, and the Quanto doesn't seem to be much of an improvement there either.

Stangely, the Gen 2 Xylo with the mHawk engine is in many ways is a better car than the Quanto if you consider the segment, the pricing and dare I say even in looks. There are just too many other, competent, well-engineered and built options to shop against when it comes to Quanto. An Ertiga at a couple of extra lakhs may seriously be worth the money.

All in all, I would say that there is generally a very good reason if the market has totally rejected a particular model. And the general rule to live by so far in our market has been to stay away from Gen 1 versions of home grown models.

Some examples going right back last 25-odd years:
>>Tata 207 family - The Tata Mobile, Estate & Sierra - only became acceptable in second/third iteration in the Sumo (1993)
>>Tata Indica - we all know what was the fate of the pre-V2 models
>>Mahindra Armada - people only remember the Bolero today and its positives!
>>Mahindra Scorpio - suspension issues/stability/niggles
>>Mahindra XUV5OO - strong start but now totally dissipated. Gone from holding lotteries for delivery slots to having banners outside dealerships screaming 'SPOT DELIVERY' in just a year - thanks to a whole bunch of QC issues/niggles.

Sachin wrote: When it comes to vehicles, I am more on the practical/bare bone necessities kind of person.

Fair enough. But do think through carefully before you decide on how bare-bones is really bare-bones for you. Many things cannot be done well/done at all aftermarket. For e.g.:
>>ABS/EBD
>>Airbags
>>Tilt Steering
>>Second/Third row AC (a BIG deal if you ask me for vehicles such as Innova/Xylo in our climate, makes a huge difference to the comfort level of people in the back)
>>Seat height adjustments
>> Factory-fitted, dash-integrated music systems with integrated controls on steering

(just slipped it in, I am a sucker for those cause the after market music systems, however good they sound, just don't...look the same

Once again, all very IMHO onlee. I am certainly no expert.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Aug 2013 23:34

why would indics need porsche cayenne than say ft cruiser, rav 4, outback or tiguan. I am looking at ~15L should be fairly decent price if say, the XUV 500 can be upgraded to take some of the awesome features from honda, toyota, vw and subarus.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Aug 2013 09:30

The hallmark of progress - the image of the multilane intracity highway filled with cars that we all love

habal · Post by **habal** » 03 Aug 2013 10:39

I agree with manish babu, Xylo would be anyday better than Quanto. If my reading is correct, Quanto is a very unstable vehicle which will not work well on highways. Just in city though, it may be alright.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 03 Aug 2013 14:32

Sachin saar, I also own a wagon r like you and I am also on the lookout for a replacement but I dont want to plonk down 30% to the govt for a "SUV"!!! I pay enough taxes already. Quanto caught my eye and I might be test driving it today. Till date I have done many a drive down to Bangalore alone on my wagon r but now I dread the thought as the vehicle is 4+ years old now, never had ABS or air bags and I dont think its suspensions and related mechanicals can handle the constant 90-100 kms I maintain on the highway.

I have been looking deeply into the quanto for some time now as it seems to have all that I need.

1. REAL 5 seater (not the 4 seater that is the wagon r and most other hatchbacks). I took my in laws and my Mom (5 of us adults and my son) in wagon r to Tirupati 2 years back and the less said the better. My poor in laws and my Mom quietly went through the ordeal, 3 adults seated in what is only space for two plus the hair pin bends. Looks like the ertiga and the ecosport dont have comfortable second rows as well. Ultimately family matters!!
2. The odd occassion where you need more than 5 seats in the car, the quanto has jump seats which can seat average height people for relatively short to medium range trips. My Mom or MIL can easily sit in this seat and in their ladies conversations can pretty much forget the whole world around them. Best place for them. My son and daughter can easily fit in there as well. Safety issues are there but for the odd family trip out due care exercised in terms of what vehicle is behind and at what distance would be in order.
3. Am 6 foot plus and can comfortably ingress and egress in the wagon r. I expect the same from my next. The quanto needs climbing into

4. Huge boot space. Pull up the jump seats and you have a lot of luggage space. Very useful in out of town trips.
5. 100 hp of power and a power to weight ratio similar to the meagle xylo or a innova. That works for me. I dont need no muscle car.
6. Best to drive around the in the city with a short turning radius. ABS and Air bags will give me confidence on the highway. There is a video on youtube where the quanto touches 150 and is still stable.

So the quanto seems a logical progression to me from the wagon r. The customizations I plan to do with my quanto c8 would be as below,

1. New ICE, take out the nippon that comes with the car and out in a touch screen with GPS, bluetooth and steering controls.
2. Look at replacing the second row bench seat with a reclining one though not sure if the jump seats would allow that. Also have to be careful about any after market seats bringing in rattling sounds. Maybe extra cushions on the top of the OEM seat could also work.

I am waiting for mk2 of the quanto where most of the current niggles are ironed out. At 9 Lakhs on the road for the c8 in Chennai it is an acceptable package. Very practical car, that!

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 05 Aug 2013 10:46

Suraj wrote:The hallmark of progress - the image of the multilane intracity highway filled with cars that we all love
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18vmuar ... bigpic.jpg

Photoshopped I tell you! No city in India has drivers who show this much lane discipline.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Aug 2013 11:42

is that the gurgaon expressway ?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 05 Aug 2013 20:09

Doesn't look photoshopped to me. That order is a natural consequence of traffic homogeneity, something I've spoken about before. When there are just primarily cars or similar sized vehicles, they'll all stick to lanes when there are well demarcated ones. It's the mix of all traffic of different sizes and speeds that leads to the chaotic look.

Those of us who knew that road as a dusty 2-laned section perennially under construction a decade ago will be suitably shakinawed by that pic, eh Singha ?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 05 Aug 2013 21:07

But it looks like a slow-way than a express-way with even 7+7 lanes. Is that true all times of the day or only during peak commute times ?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Aug 2013 21:08

are those cars with more >= 2 occupants?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Aug 2013 00:00

Suraj wrote:Doesn't look photoshopped to me. That order is a natural consequence of traffic homogeneity, something I've spoken about before. When there are just primarily cars or similar sized vehicles, they'll all stick to lanes when there are well demarcated ones. It's the mix of all traffic of different sizes and speeds that leads to the chaotic look.

I was joking Suraj saar. So it's from Bangalore then?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 06 Aug 2013 00:06

Delhi-Gurgaon expressway.

Here's an even more interesting pic of the toll plaza on that expressway at night: lots of cars and even more cars

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 06 Aug 2013 01:32

Who collects this toll? The govt. or the company that makes it?

Shouldn't toll go much more down, as the number of vehicles compounds? After all the toll is only to get the money back, spent on highway making.