Artillery Discussion Thread

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Lalmohan » 15 May 2013 12:49

looks like new model afghan army is using m777's also. was watching news clip last night of embedded reporter on patrol with afghan army on paktika badlands frontier with pakistan. afghan army had a lot of the standard unkil gear. unkil troops were acting as advisors but had to step in with some light mortars at one point. then they cut to shot of afghan army firing m777's. strong hint that bandits were being chased back across the border.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 15 May 2013 13:33

hopefully once unkil departs the ANA will not be so quiet about x-border attacks and shell TSP hideouts in depth, while calling in unkil B52 and tribal brothers in NWFP if the pakis escalate.

schowdhuri
BRFite
Posts: 174
Joined: 15 Dec 2010 12:24

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby schowdhuri » 15 May 2013 14:41

Singha wrote:here is a interesting product to supplement our M777 guns...the Denel T7/105mm on a Stryker vehicle.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3167.html

this is portable inside C130, and hence can be flown into every airbase including the ALGs and self-deploy from there. getting systems like the Bhim into north sikkim and tawang could be a real big problem though in ladakh it is feasible.

should be cheaper for sure than 155mm systems.

this could be a close fire support weapon for infantry divs as well....lobbing the kind of shells that impact fortifications (tanks will carry bulk of their 40 rounds as AT, not HE).


105's will do nothing to fortifications, arty HAS to be primarily 155.

member_26622
BRFite
Posts: 537
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_26622 » 15 May 2013 17:35

Singha wrote:here is a interesting product to supplement our M777 guns...the Denel T7/105mm on a Stryker vehicle.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3167.html
this is portable inside C130, and hence can be flown into every airbase including the ALGs and self-deploy from there. getting systems like the Bhim into north sikkim and tawang could be a real big problem though in ladakh it is feasible.
should be cheaper for sure than 155mm systems.
.


Stryker vehicle costs 5 million a piece (wiki) and Denel T7 on top will be additional 3 million: Total cost 8 million USD a piece.
In comparison, Arjun tank costs 2.5 million. Just chassis will likely be 1 million. Agree that we need to explore 6x6 chassis for mobility << Tata or other domestic players can line up better options here.

We need to settle on a few gun types and build in numbers like 1500~3000 units at minimum to be effective. Bofors is proven in India and we have already bought technology. It will be hard to justify any new gun financially or operationally.

Upgraded Bofors (desi Jugaad or TOT ) and M-777 seem to be the rational choices.

VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2394
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby VinodTK » 22 May 2013 05:46

Indian Firms Tapped for Howitzer Trials

NEW DELHI — For the first time, Indian defense companies have been selected for trials in a howitzer gun tender.

The Indian Ministry of Defence has failed to buy a single howitzer gun in the past 13 years because the global competition for a variety of 155mm/52-caliber guns was aborted over the blacklisting of an overseas competitor on charges of corruption.

Larsen & Toubro (L&T), which has tied up with South Korean company Samsung, and state-owned Bharat Earth Movers Ltd. (BEML), which has partnered with Slovakian company Konstrukha, are competing with Russia’s Rosoboron export for the tracked gun tender.

The Indian Army wants to buy 100 tracked guns valued at more than US $750 million.

The tender issued in 2011, which was a rebid of a 2007 tender, went to India’s Tata Power SED, Larsen & Toubro, BEML and Rosoboronexport. Tata Power SED had tied up with Huta Stalowa Wola HSW of Poland.

“The selection of a domestic defense company in the howitzer gun tender will encourage more tie-ups with overseas defense companies in tapping the howitzer gun market in India, valued at over $5 billion,” said Nitin Mehta, a defense analyst based here.

As part of the Indian Army’s plan to replace all of its field guns, named the Field Artillery Rationalization Plan, the Army would buy a mix of around 3,600 155mm/52-caliber guns by 2020-25.

In the past 13 years, the MoD floated tenders for 1,580 towed guns, 100 tracked guns, 180 wheeled and self-propelled guns, and 145 ultra-light howitzers. So far, not a single gun has been bought.

Since 2005, when India banned South African company Denel, the MoD also has banned howitzer competitors ST Kinetics of Singapore, Israel Military Industries and Germany’s Rheinmetall Air Defense from doing business in India for 10 years.

The blacklisting resulted in termination of the procurement process and rebids of the tender.

The overseas companies were blacklisted on charges of corruption, and the government’s anti-fraud agency, the Central Bureau of Investigation, is probing the charges.

An L&T executive said it has built a tracked version based on the portfolio of its partner, Samsung, which he said would be a homemade advanced version of Samsung’s K9 Thunder self-propelled howitzer.

Earlier, BEML had developed a tracked gun with a fully autonomous turret developed by Denel. After the blacklisting, BEML teamed up with Konstrukha, a BEML executive said.

The Indian Army’s artillery consists of 155mm/39-caliber Bofors FH-77B howitzers bought in the late 1980s, and only 200 of the 410 guns are functioning. In addition, the Army uses 105mm field guns and Russian 130mm guns.

India has negotiated the purchase of 145 155mm/52-caliber guns from the US subsidiary of Britain’s BAE Systems on a government-to-government basis.

As part of the homemade initiative, the state-owned Ordnance Factories Board has developed prototypes of 155mm/45-caliber Bofors-type howitzers based on the blueprint of 155mm/39-caliber guns.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 01 Jul 2013 00:07


vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 03 Jul 2013 10:35

We should mount OFB Bofors on a TATA 8x8 with assistance of Pvt Companies rather than going for another tender

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Austin » 03 Jul 2013 11:11

^^ Agreed considering we went no where with such tenders and it keeps getting delayed and we hear of new tenders every time.
Mounting OFB 155 mm on Indian Trucks is safe bet , even if it means lower capability we would have that capability rather not have it at all.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Surya » 03 Jul 2013 17:13

at this stage the pvt parties have as much expertise and maybe more in some areas. The OFB equipment is anyway made by small vendors in sundry towns


MOD has to get its act together and select 1 pvt venture

OFB can continue its leisurely pace

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 03 Jul 2013 17:40

Surya wrote:at this stage the pvt parties have as much expertise and maybe more in some areas.

AFAIK the number of private companies actually making any guns is 0.

mody
BRFite
Posts: 768
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby mody » 03 Jul 2013 18:05

The OFB gun is made at Gun Carriage Factory, Jabalpur and not by small vendors in sundry towns.

Tata will be pitching the Denel gun, mounted on a Tata truck.

No other private company has displayed a truck mounted gun or any gun of their own for that matter.
Porting the OFB 155 mm/45cal gun to a tata or Ashok Leyland 8x8 truck for the first 200-250 nos. and then getting a 155 mm/52 cal gun for the balance guns would be the easiest, fastest and possibly the cheapest approach.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Surya » 03 Jul 2013 19:06

abhik

true but a lot of the technologies for forging etc are in the grasp of the Bharat forge and Tatas
they have got\bought the manufacturing facilities
and more importantly are better places to attract and maintain the human resources going forward than OFB

OFB venture into 155 mm is recent too and so the gap is not that wide to worry about it unlike lets say an fighter aircraft

The OFB gun is made at Gun Carriage Factory, Jabalpur and not by small vendors in sundry towns.


did not say gun - I said parts - supply chain

my neighbour in Mumbai supplies OFB with castings made in little workshops in the Saki naka area.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 03 Jul 2013 22:53

mody wrote:Tata will be pitching the Denel gun, mounted on a Tata truck.
No other private company has displayed a truck mounted gun or any gun of their own for that matter.

As far as I know, nowhere have the Tatas claimed that the gun itself is manufactured by them. Bharat Forge was reported to have bought Austrian Noricum plant, but we don't know what is going to come out of this. The ordinance factory is still in the pole position when it comes to artillery.

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 10 Jul 2013 02:27

Billionaire’s Howitzers to Test Defense Policy: Corporate India.

India’s aim to procure 75 percent of its defense supplies locally in a decade is in jeopardy as companies struggle to navigate rules on manufacturing and selling weapons.

Billionaire Baba Kalyani’s group, which plans a prototype of India’s first privately-built Howitzer gun next year, will be unable to test it as regulations prohibit firms from using military facilities, said Amit Kalyani, executive director at Bharat Forge (BHFC) Ltd., the flagship firm of the group. Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd. (MM)’s proposal for a venture with Rafael Advanced Defense Systems Ltd. was denied by the government, which didn’t give a reason for the rejection.

“This is not rocket science,” Kalyani said in an interview. “We need to just study what other countries have done. There are examples of a strong partnership between the defense establishment and the private industry.”

The world’s largest importer of arms last year may miss its target to boost local supplies as nebulous regulations threaten to derail Kalyani, Larsen & Toubro Ltd. (LT) and Mahindra’s plan to tap the annual 867.4 billion rupee ($14 billion) market. Rules don’t specify the type of weapons companies can build or the restriction on partnerships.

“There is a lot of talk about encouraging private industry in defense,” said Deba Ranjan Mohanty, chairman of Indicia Research & Advisory, a New Delhi-based defense researcher. “When a state decides to open up its defense production, it needs to devise a strategy to see it through. Otherwise, it’ll all be empty talk.”

India in 2001 allowed local companies with up to 26 percent foreign ownership, to bid for arms contracts. A decade later the country revised its policy on military production to reserve certain manufacturing for Indian companies.

Still, rules to preclude private manufacturers from using defense testing facilities means Kalyani won’t be able to use amenities such as the Pokhran range, the country’s largest field firing area. Without testing products, companies won’t be able to bid for contracts, said Mohanty.

A venture between Larsen and Cassidian Ltd. formed in 2011 to make avionics, radars and electronic warfare equipment is still awaiting industrial license. Larsen spokesman Deepak Morada declined to comment. Mahindra in an e-mail declined to comment on the government’s rejection of the company’s partnership with Rafael.

“We’re looking at this issue,” said Satish B. Agnihotri, director general of acquisition in the Ministry of Defence. “It’s not just Kalyani, there may be others too who are developing products and we may not have a method of taking that into the procedure.”

In February, V.K. Saraswat, then adviser to the Indian defense minister, said the government will restrain private ventures pertaining to highly security sensitive areas. He didn’t elaborate.

Any change in rules may be slowed by officials’ sensitivities over corruption scandals in previous purchases, including one that helped drive the ruling Congress party to defeat in 1989 elections.

India ordered a federal investigation into allegations of graft in the purchase of 12 helicopters from Italy’s Finmeccanica SpA (FNC), claims that led to the Feb. 12 arrest of the Italian company’s chief executive officer and which could further slow future deals.

The Kalyani Group has invested 1 billion rupees in its defense venture that’s building artillery guns, armored vehicles and unmanned ground vehicles. Bharat Forge has separately formed a venture with a unit of Elbit Systems Ltd. (ESLT) to bid for Indian Army’s contracts including for towed guns, mounted guns and upgrade of 130 millimeter artillery guns.

Profit at Bharat Forge, India’s third-largest auto components maker by market value, fell 40 percent in the year ended March 31. The company’s shares, which have fallen 13.4 percent this year, rose for the first time in five days to 218.30 rupees, or up 1.3 percent, at the close in Mumbai.

Local private companies account for 10 percent of India’s defense spending, mostly as sub-contractors to state-owned firms that contribute about 20 percent, according to a 2012 report by Boston Consulting Group Inc. Foreign suppliers control the remaining 70 percent of the supplies.

“It’s been 12 years since the sector was opened up, first for foreign direct investment and then to domestic manufacturing,” said Nidhi Goyal, director of the aerospace and defense team at Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu Ltd. in India. “But there’s been no major contract awarded to the private sector. Then what’s the benefit for the private investor?”

India targets to raise the proportion of defense equipment produced at home to 75 percent from about 30 percent in the next 10 years. Asia’s third-largest economy plans to spend 2.04 trillion rupees in the year that started April 1, from a revised 1.78 trillion rupees last year on defense. Of the total expenditure, 867.4 billion rupees will be used to modernize its forces, up 25 percent from a year earlier.

“A textbook case of how things should be done is joint ownership of programs,” said Kalyani, who’s building the Howitzer gun under the code name Operation Sunshine.

member_22906
BRFite
Posts: 305
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_22906 » 13 Jul 2013 01:13

Bhai Log... Any news on the OFB project on:
a) 155mm/39 calibre FH 77
b) 155mm/45 calibre FH 77

Weren't the timelines end-2012 and mid-2013 for the 39 calibre and 45 calibre respectively?

RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5180
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby RoyG » 13 Jul 2013 01:25

Ajay Sharma wrote:Bhai Log... Any news on the OFB project on:
a) 155mm/39 calibre FH 77
b) 155mm/45 calibre FH 77

Weren't the timelines end-2012 and mid-2013 for the 39 calibre and 45 calibre respectively?


Don't get your hopes up. OFB + MOD + Congress = No artillery. :lol:

member_22906
BRFite
Posts: 305
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_22906 » 13 Jul 2013 21:09

Not sure if this was posted before...

http://tenders.gov.in/viewtenddoc.asp?tid=mp524217&wno=1&td=TD

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FOR SUPPLYOF 6X6 OR 8X8 TRUCKS SUITABLY MODIFIED FOR MOUNTING 155 mm GUN SYSTEM


Gun Carriage Factory, Jabalpur has undertaken a prestigious R&D project for 155 mm Mounted Gun System. It is proposed to identify the probable vendors who can supply the suitable vehicles, modify and supply additionally required sub-systems for mounting of gun system & firing load transfer as well as associate in integration & validation of the system


The activities for development of 155mm Mounted Gun System will be as follows:
(i) Development / Manufacture of 155 mm Weapon System - by OFB.

(ii) Development and supply of Vehicle System (6x6 or 8x8 powered) & making it compatible for integration of 155 mm Weapon System - by proposed vendor.

(iii) Interfacing / integration of Weapon System with Vehicle System - jointly by OFB & Vendor.

(iv) Commissioning and Trials - jointly by OFB & Vendor.

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3287
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 14 Jul 2013 05:44

Ajay Sharma wrote:Bhai Log... Any news on the OFB project on:
a) 155mm/39 calibre FH 77
b) 155mm/45 calibre FH 77

Weren't the timelines end-2012 and mid-2013 for the 39 calibre and 45 calibre respectively?


Sharmaji:

I did not expect the OFB to meet such aggressive timelines. I think they declared such aggressive timelines just to stall the GOI from looking at efforts being made by private players such as Bharat Forge and the Tata group to become alternatives to the OFB for supplying 155mm artillery to the Indian army.

sivab
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sivab » 14 Jul 2013 09:42

Ajay Sharma wrote:Bhai Log... Any news on the OFB project on:
a) 155mm/39 calibre FH 77
b) 155mm/45 calibre FH 77

Weren't the timelines end-2012 and mid-2013 for the 39 calibre and 45 calibre respectively?


http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=95272

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence

29-April-2013 18:46 IST
Test of Guns

Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has carried out several internal firings of their in house developed 155mm x 45 calibre Artillery Gun and it has met the planned objectives. However, User Test Fire is yet to be carried out.

OFB has received indent for 114 Nos. of 155mm x 45 calibre Artillery guns which are to be delivered as per following delivery schedule:

...

This information was given by Minister of state for Defence Shri Jitendra Singh in a written reply to Shri Rakesh Singhin Lok Sabha today.


http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... si-gun-pxe

Desi Bofors gun passes the test

JABALPUR: It is thumbs up finally to made in MP desi Bofors gun. The country cousin of the Swedish high caliber artillery gun has passed the final hurdle race in Proof and Experimental establishment (PXE) Balasore with flying colors on December 23.

The performance of the both updated prototypes has been just as expected, project director of the weapon development component and general manager Gun carriage factory GCF S P Yadav declared here. Amidst reports that GCF has already piped the rivals and bagged the Rs 6000 crore project, a jubilant Yadav said that, things were "in process", but declined to comment till he got the order in hands.

Both prototypes -155/45 caliber guns Yadav said have fulfilled all required parameters on the PXE testing orange. There were three successive field trials held in Balasore on December 19, 20 and 23 respectively at the technology intensive range, equipped to provide accurate ballistic measurements .and both specimen could hit 38-40 kilometers mark successfully in presence of Yadav his team and DG artillery lieutenant general Anjan Mukherji who represented Indian Army, along with the experts from defense research and development organization DRDO.

DRDO has compiled the data and analysis and we would shortly receive a copy the general manager said.

Though the initial internal trials held in May this year in Pokharan had yielded positive results the indigenous howitzer, developed by the GCF for final clearance had to pass two acid tests- at Itarasi and Balsore- before it could be handed over to Army. Taken first to the central proof establishment CPE Itarsi, it went through three day test on November 30 and December 5 and 6. However, at CPE, firing was confined to the arrester butt on zero degree elevation as against Balasore where we could go up to our maximum elevation of 70 degrees at every designed angle, Yadav said.

The prototypes have been, after the CPE firing, subjected to series of tests for assessing its structural strength. It was found that all components and assemblage could sustain the firing stress effortlessly without any damage. On its way back from Orissa, both guns would be dismantled to be examined part by part to once again to be doubly sure before being handed over to the Army next month.

A team of 125 personnel had been working on the project for last year and half to develop a, technically updated version of the Swedish 155/39 caliber gun which had a firing range between 27 and 29 kilometers. Though GCF Jabalpur had the lead role in the project it was duly assisted in the endeavor by other ten units including Kolkota, Muradnagar, Medhak, Ambernath and Dehradoon.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 14 Jul 2013 10:02

Very good news that OFB is interfacing it's howitzer with Indian truck. I believe that letter of intent for 144 OFB howitzers has already been placed. The testing of OFB howitzers has been going on for 2-3 years by now. Production plant has been set up for around Rs. 500 crores.

sivab
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sivab » 14 Jul 2013 10:38

http://www.sakaaltimes.com/NewsDetails. ... illery+gun

ARDE bags order for futuristic advanced artillery gun

PUNE: The Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), Pune, the sister laboratory of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), has bagged an order to develop a futuristic advanced artillery gun with superior fire power and fully automated operational system.

“We got this project three months ago. The Army has asked us to come up with a new advanced gun for the artillery, which should be a state-of-the-art weapon system in the year 2020. So keeping this in mind, we have begun working on the 155mm Advanced Towed Artillery Gun (ATAG) which would be a highly superior gun,” Director, ARDE Anil Datar told Sakal Times.

The gun will hit targets up to 50 km instead of the existing 32 km range of the Bofors guns.

For this, advanced propellants are being developed by another DRDO sister lab in the High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL), Pune. The gun would have a fully automatic ammunition handling system and would be able to fire more rounds in a shorter period of time.

“We will have to use new materials for the gun and barrel structural elements. It would also be possible to drive the gun into a non-motorable area up to 500m without needing to tow it,” he said.

The next aspect of the gun would be advanced communication system.

This gun will be linked with the entire military communication system network.

The gunner will be told what target will be deployed, through a secured communication network.

“Our DRDO sister lab, the Centre for Artificial Intelligence and Robotics (CAIR) in Bengaluru, is developing the communication system,” Datar informed.

“We will have Automatic Gun Alignment Position System (AGPS), which will ensure accuracy of fire by automatically aligning the gun system with the target,” he added.

There will be a system of Battery Command Post, which is a vehicle with a fire control computer.

This will be connected to an Artillery battery, a group of six-eight guns in the field which will be given directions for accurate firing at variable targets.

We will be making the Mark-1 gun with new ammunition within three years. We have formed work packages for the Ordnance factories and private industry through a transparent tendering system. We have been receiving an overwhelming response from the private sector,” the ARDE director said.

member_22906
BRFite
Posts: 305
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_22906 » 14 Jul 2013 22:05

Thanks sivab for the news reports. I am keeping my fingers crossed on the 39 & 45 calibre user test (which even as per your reports haven't been completed).

Experiencing heartbreak after heartbreak on successive cancellations of trials/orders, I am being deliberately cautious

Vic: LoI is a positive step but what we need are firm orders and on-time deliveries. That would be a lungi dance moment

member_22906
BRFite
Posts: 305
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_22906 » 14 Jul 2013 22:23

sivab wrote:ARDE bags order for futuristic advanced artillery gun


This surely looks interesting though I guess this is not going for the current 55mm towed gun requirements. Seems to be catering to requirements of the next decade

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2480
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vivek K » 15 Jul 2013 00:21

Futuristic as in Futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicle or as in Futuristic MBT? Why waste taxpayer money - ARDE will take 25 years and IA will reject whatever they come up with for another 25 years. Why even try?

RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5180
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby RoyG » 15 Jul 2013 00:26

3 years? More like 10. Unless we have a clean central government and psu's taking a back seat to private players we won't get jacksh*t. They can come out with the best gun in the world but trust our present setup to do everything in it's power to mess it all up.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Surya » 15 Jul 2013 01:01

oh come on you naysayers

time will stand still at other gun manufacturers for next 10 years ensuring the ARDE will come up with a superiior gun

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19836
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Karan M » 15 Jul 2013 04:40

But...even if it is 10 years behind what is best in the world at the time, its still a far sight better than having nothing, which is the state of affairs today. We have blacklisted pretty much every supplier, and those whom we have worked with have either ripped us off, or promise us vaporware (if we look at the number of JVs that were supposed to have produced quick results, but have not). Basically, we need artillery of a decent design, which we can then MK2, MK3, MK4 etc.
If the private sector builds these, more the better.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8098
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nachiket » 15 Jul 2013 13:17

10 years behind the times? Our Artillery shortfall must be so severe by now that even a medieval Trebuchet would be a welcome addition. As long as they buy it in large amounts.

member_22906
BRFite
Posts: 305
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_22906 » 15 Jul 2013 22:48

What will be interesting to see which guns from the current stock are retired first...

I suspect that the strike corps will get the naya maal first (be it towed or tracked or mounted). The 130mm (M46) from the strike corps will probably get transferred to the pivot corps from which the 122mm (D30) and 105mm (LFG) will get replaced. The LFG will perhaps remain in reserve or with BSF

VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2394
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby VinodTK » 03 Aug 2013 06:04

From Business Standard: Amid procurement gloom, M-777 gun offers army hope

By Ajai Shukla
The army is closing in on its first modern artillery gun purchase in almost three decades since the Bofors FH-77B field howitzer was bought in the mid-1980s. So politically paralyzing were the ripples from that controversial deal that buying artillery has been well nigh impossible since then.

Reaching the end of a lengthy evaluation now is the estimated $650 million (Rs 4,000 crore) purchase of 145 M-777 ultra light howitzers (ULHs), developed and built by BAE Systems, but to be procured through a Foreign Military Sale (FMS) contract. In this, India will buy the gun from the US Department of Defence (the Pentagon); the Pentagon negotiates terms with the supplier (in this case, BAE Systems), and charges a small percentage for its services.

A contentious element of this procurement --- offsets --- is now almost resolved. On Jan 22, 2010, Washington had indicated that there would be no offsets. Since then, BAE Systems has accepted an offset liability of 30 per cent of the contract value, amounting to almost $200 million. Of this, 30 per cent can be discharged by transferring technology, while at least 70 per cent must be discharged through sourcing equipment manufactured in India.

Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) sources tell Business Standard that, with the MoD changing priority from buying artillery to developing guns in India, BAE Systems has been asked for technology for manufacturing artillery ammunition, specifically bi-modular charge systems (BMCS). BAE Systems has offered to manufacture high-tech gun components in India, for its global supply chain for the “future artillery gun” and “future naval gun” programmes.
:
:
:
:

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vic » 07 Aug 2013 12:41

M777 is just another attempt to find excuse to import. A non-automated OFB Bofors gun of 155 x 39 caliber will weight around 6 tons compared to 4.2 tons for M777 but will be ten times cheaper. Why not have 1000 OFB howitzers and pre position them all over the border rather than costly, imported M777 which will not be usable in war due to sanctions.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 07 Aug 2013 12:51

moving them opens another import deal - that of chinooks...because onlee chinook is tfta enough to move the munna ;) more m777 -> more chinook.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 07 Aug 2013 17:26

^^^
Once on the ground those M777s aren't going to move on their own. They will need uber lite prime movers too.
AFAIK the FH77 weighs 10+ tonnes.

pragnya
BRFite
Posts: 728
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 18:41

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pragnya » 10 Aug 2013 15:50


Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8308
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 10 Aug 2013 16:52

They say a fool and his cash will soon be parted.
With fms we will be forces to buy american FATs as well.
Rather then use a domestic product.

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3287
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 10 Aug 2013 19:56

Pratyush wrote:They say a fool and his cash will soon be parted.
With fms we will be forces to buy american FATs as well.
Rather then use a domestic product.


What domestic product is available in place of M777?

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16829
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby NRao » 10 Aug 2013 20:04

Pratyush wrote:They say a fool and his cash will soon be parted.
With fms we will be forces to buy american FATs as well.
Rather then use a domestic product.


I think the increase reflects the cost of offsets. I am told a offset included deal will be more. So please do the math and see if at all that is a possibility.

The article itself states that that is a diff in the two quotes.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8308
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 10 Aug 2013 20:33

Kakkaji wrote:
Pratyush wrote:They say a fool and his cash will soon be parted.
With fms we will be forces to buy american FATs as well.
Rather then use a domestic product.


What domestic product is available in place of M777?


Field Artillery Tractor. I am not talking bout the gun. Speaking of guns. I do t see the need for the guns as well. For a simple reason that in the mountain if the FAT can drive it can tow any gun. The major challange is not the weight of the gun. It is the length. Also for the m777, the absence of shell handling crane, like that on the FH 77, means that our army will have to be super fit to man handle a 50 kg round.


Also, when you need to air lift the weapon, the weight of the ammunition also needs to be kept in mind.

At 50 kg. A shot, just how many rounds can be carried by air. For the gun battery. Or an individual gun.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16829
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby NRao » 10 Aug 2013 20:53

Just saw a vid on YouTube. One person lifted the shell. ?????

Perhaps a revisit to how the IA intends to use it may help.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 10 Aug 2013 21:05

^^^
Its got nothing to do with being super fit to handle a 50kg shell manually, If I am not wrong you would require that even for the up-gunned M-46s.
Its about having a high sustained rate of fire. I remember Livefist blog has the results of a field trial of the new FH-77(vs some soltam gun). It could fire 60 rounds in ~25 minutes or so(the soltam gun took something in the range of 40 minutes). There is no way that the M-777 or any completely manually loaded gun can match it.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests