Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Philip
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Philip »

Vina,the La Fontaine enquiry ( before ACM la Fontaine became CAS) went into the requirement for an AJT after examining the reasons for several crashes.While a Gnat/Ajeet trainer may have been developed,it may not have fulfilled all the requirements of an AJT.Even the British decided to develop a successor to the Gnat trainer,which was a 1950's design,and developed the Hawk. I remember a former Wingco. describing to me in detail the skill required to handle the Gnat. I have also asked the Q before as to what happened.Here is a Wik quote as to why the trainer wasn't built,because the type was being phased out.
A HAL project for a trainer based on the Ajeet was begun, leading to the initial flight of a prototype in 1982. Unfortunately this aircraft was lost in a crash later that year. A second prototype flew the following year, followed by a third. But a lack of government interest and the imminent phaseout of the aircraft meant no more examples were produced. The two surviving aircraft were sent to the only unit in the IAF operating the Ajeet, No.2 Squadron. The aircraft served with the Squadron until the phaseout of the Ajeet in 1991.
Since the MIG-21-U Type 66 Mongol trainer was available in large number,it was used for many years as the 21 was the mainstay of the IAF,pilots graduating from the Kiran to the Mongol OCU.

Here's some info on the subject that might shed some light.The irony is that while the British saw the Hawk as the successor to the Gnat,we also picked the Hawk aeons ago as the AJT but took 2 decades to confirm the same!

RAF.
Once a pilot had graduated from basic training on the BAC Jet Provost and gained their wings they were selected for one of three streams, fast jet, multi-engined or helicopters. Those selected for fast jets were posted to RAF Valley for advanced training on the Gnat T.1, typically 70 hours of flying. Student would then move on to operational training using the Hawker Hunter then a posting to an operational conversion unit for the type of aircraft to be flown.

Following the introduction of the Hawker Siddeley Hawk into the training role as a replacement the Gnats were withdrawn from service.[3] The largest operator 4 FTS retired its last Gnat in November 1978. Most of the retired Gnats were delivered to No. 1 School of Technical Training at RAF Halton and other training establishments to be used as ground training airframes. When the RAF had no need for the Gnats as training airframes they were sold off and many were bought by private operators.
In 1964 the Royal Air Force specified a requirement (Air Staff Target (AST) 362) for a new fast jet trainer to replace the Folland Gnat. The SEPECAT Jaguar was originally intended for this role, but it was soon realised that it would be too complex an aircraft for fast jet training and only a small number of two-seat versions were purchased.
Last edited by Philip on 05 Aug 2013 21:10, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by pragnya »

RV, my last post on this.

i am not clutching at any straws. all i am saying is HTT-40 as 'conceived and agreed to by HAL and IAF in 2008', is a heavy class trainer with armaments and the 'zero zero ejection is a must'!! since there is no other option, does it really matter who proposed it?? besides isn't it natural that these things are mutually raised and agreed upon between a designer/producer and a user??
The requirement for BTT from IAF's side was of the category to which PC-7 belongs and in this category, IAF is OK with Zero-60 ejection seat and air-conditioned cabin.
yes zero-60 ejection seat/AC cabin came via rfi issued in dec 2009 because IAF felt they didn't need HTT 40/super Tucano type trainer anymore and hence changed their requirements. ajai shukla talks of 12 changes (0-0 ejection seat being one of those) and unfortunately vishnu som show does not cover all these. it was as somebody noted a missed opportunity.

the issue which has raised its head now is because HAL (which has sunk in some cost already) was supposed to build all 181 trainers to begin with, then MOD, due to the global tender, mandated a buy of 75 global while 106 were meant to be HAL HTT 40 but the IAF now wants all Pilatus.

however IMO since MOD has foreclosed HTT 40 in sept 2012, it is sorting this out.
It does not matter if HAL is into heavier or lighter version because HAL development effort is not being faulted because of this aspect. However, if the HAL development effort cost seriously over and above the existing product, then there will, and is, an issue.
HAL says it costs less for HTT-40.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by tsarkar »

pandyan wrote:^^^ are you saying...
No, I am wondering why HPT-32 is grounded since 2009 for four years.

I'm also wondering why Deepika Sharma & others died with a genius like you around.

That apart, there are different teams with different ethos. The Rotary Wing Research & Design Centre has a far higher sense of professionalism than Transport Aircraft Division, that is working on MTA for more than 20 years.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by rohitvats »

pragnya wrote:<SNIP>
yes zero-60 ejection seat/AC cabin came via rfi issued in dec 2009 because IAF felt they didn't need HTT 40/super Tucano type trainer anymore and hence changed their requirements. ajai shukla talks of 12 changes (0-0 ejection seat being one of those) and unfortunately vishnu som show does not cover all these. it was as somebody noted a missed opportunity.
Why cannot you get a simple thing straight - IAF did not agree to a heavy BTT as THE requirement - their requirement was in PC-7 category which HAL tried to fill with a better-than-class product. IAF reissuing the PSQR to HAL after HAL's inputs does not mean IAF was stuck with this PSQR being the base requirement (ASQR) for foreign purchase as well.

It does not mean IAF watered down the ASQR to favor PC-7 - if the idea was to only shaft the domestic product, it could have very well gone with any of the other trainer aircraft in the fray which met all the requirements proposed by HAL for HTT-40.
The issue which has raised its head now is because HAL (which has sunk in some cost already) was supposed to build all 181 trainers to begin with, then MOD, due to the global tender, mandated a buy of 75 global while 106 were meant to be HAL HTT 40 but the IAF now wants all Pilatus.
So, on what basis did HAL sink the cost? Was a confirmed order ever placed on HAL? If the response of IAF Chief is anything to go by, it seems IAF never wanted to have any truck with HAL offer in the first place. All they were issued is PSQR - I don't think they were ever given a ASQR so where does this talk of 'sinking money' come from? Or, were the HAL babus expecting to win the requirement by default?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sagar G »

Vishnu wrote:Hi ... a couple of points ...

The decision to push for forecloseure of the HTT-40 project is based on a directive from the DG (Acquisitions) in the Defence Ministry on September 5, 2012. It is not based on an independent IAF drive to shut down this project - it cannot be since the final arbiter of the sales and acquisition process is the MoD, not the Air Force.
It's no secret that the MoD will take the final call as is the case with HTT-40 as well since DM chairs the DAC hence it's finally his call but are you saying here that the DG (Acquisitions) out of the blue came out with the directive that the HTT-40 is not required ??? Are you saying that the DG acted independently ??? If so then why did the IAF chief write to the DM asking him to scrap the project ??? Or is the entire article a misinformation campaign from Shukla ???
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sagar G »

tsarkar wrote:Care to explain how did HTT-34 rectify HPT-32 faults?

It was just the same plane with a different engine, developed the same time as HPT-32, and not after.
So you are 100% sure that HTT-34 also had the same engine cut off problem that HPT-32 had. If so then I guess you have authoritative information to prove your point so post the same here. Also please post information regarding why HTT-34 was the same plane like HPT-32.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Indranil »

Boss, practice what you preach.
Sagar G wrote: It would have been wise of you to read the posted links instead of imagining james bond inspired theatrical situations.
I said:
indranilroy wrote: <SNIP> ... a stop gap solution of fixing parachutes to the trainer so that trainees can level off the plane and then jump out of it before the plane hit the ground.
Is it different from what you have quoted?
HAL officials said the trainer's airframe would have to undergo modifications. These would include strengthening, to prevent the structure from shearing off when the parachute is deployed, and also to take the extra weight. Trials need to be undertaken to optimise the flight characteristics of the aircraft once the PRS has been fitted, and the Lycoming engine overhauled — since the entire fleet has not flown for nearly nine months. The PRS will also have to ensure that the aircraft comes down horizontally and not nose or tail first.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sagar G »

indranilroy wrote:<SNIP> ... a stop gap solution of fixing parachutes to the trainer so that trainees can level off the plane and then jump out of it before the plane hit the ground.
Where did that come from ??? Now I hope I am clear enough for you.

Edit :- Also after re-reading your post you are saying that the trainees are going to level off the trainer but from the report it seems that the job is to be done by the PRS.
Last edited by Sagar G on 05 Aug 2013 22:01, edited 1 time in total.
Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Indranil »

If your plane is coming down with a parachute, the plane is not going to land, it will crash. Albeit it would be slower than a stalled crash, but it will make a lot of structural damage and possibly set the plane on fire. So, you are supposed to eject after you have leveled off the plane, hopefully at sufficient altitude. Now, Deepak did not have an ejection system. You would open the canopy and jump out.

These are all facts. I am not construing anything or presenting thoughts or perspectives here.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sagar G »

indranilroy wrote:If your plane is coming down with a parachute, the plane is not going to land, it will crash. Albeit it would be slower than a stalled crash, but it will make a lot of structural damage and possibly set the plane on fire. So, you are supposed to eject after you have leveled off the plane, hopefully at sufficient altitude. Now, Deepak did not have an ejection system. You would open the canopy and jump out.

These are all facts. I am not construing anything or presenting thoughts or perspectives here.
If these are "facts" as claimed by you then I suppose it wouldn't be hard for you to show me the publically available info regarding the same. I am only going with what the report states and it doesn't state any of the thing that you are saying hence asking for further clarification.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Indranil »

Sagar G wrote:
indranilroy wrote:If your plane is coming down with a parachute, the plane is not going to land, it will crash. Albeit it would be slower than a stalled crash, but it will make a lot of structural damage and possibly set the plane on fire. So, you are supposed to eject after you have leveled off the plane, hopefully at sufficient altitude. Now, Deepak did not have an ejection system. You would open the canopy and jump out.

These are all facts. I am not construing anything or presenting thoughts or perspectives here.
If these are "facts" as claimed by you then I suppose it wouldn't be hard for you to show me the publically available info regarding the same. I am only going with what the report states and it doesn't state any of the thing that you are saying hence asking for further clarification.
What do you want info on.
Whether the Deepak would survive a belly landing aided by a chute?
Deepak does not have an ejection system?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sagar G »

agupta wrote:From Janes, Sole HTT-34 = X2335 (third built HPT-32, but first production aircraft, 31 July 1981) converted to Allison turbo-prop power from prev. production Tex Lyco 260hp flat six engine.
So you are saying that the "conversion" had the same design flaw as HPT-32 ??? If so then can you state the design flaw which was there in HPT-32 ???
agupta wrote:So it seems like a 140 plus HPT-32s were delivered with a fundamental design/system integration problem, and instead of fixing it at source since that it would actually mean admitting that there was a design fault, the HAL response was always - here's a "new proposal", not a "sorry, we screwed up - here's the fix".
Fixes were tried even IIT's were consulted for the same as recent as 2007. It's wise to look around for info instead of posting with incomplete knowledge about the same.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sagar G »

indranilroy wrote:]If your plane is coming down with a parachute, the plane is not going to land, it will crash. Albeit it would be slower than a stalled crash, but it will make a lot of structural damage and possibly set the plane on fire. So, you are supposed to eject after you have leveled off the plane, hopefully at sufficient altitude. Now, Deepak did not have an ejection system. You would open the canopy and jump out.

What do you want info on.
Whether the Deepak would survive a belly landing aided by a chute?
Deepak does not have an ejection system?
The entire bolded portion. Your source must mention that this was the S.O.P. to be followed in conjunction with PRS.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sagar G »

agupta wrote:I think now is the time to exercise YOUR reading skills. You are arguing for the sake of arguing and to avoid losing face.... having been caught with your logical pants down.

Good luck - in the kill file you go :rotfl:
Simple questions like the one asked by me causes so much khujli :mrgreen: . Look smartypants if you can't provide evidence for what you are saying then either don't make such claims or try these tricks somewhere else.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Indranil »

Well, I will try to find the SoP for HPT-32, if it is present publicly. But what I said is pretty standard for manual bailout.

Meanwhile, this is a video from BRS (the company contracted to build the PRS for HPT-32) of a successful recovery.
[youtube]?v=jgfG2DfPB6I[/youtube]
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sagar G »

agupta wrote:Trying fixes doesnt count for much if it didnt succeed, nor does "consulting IITs"... capability is counted by what was achieved, not what was tried. A design bureau can ask for deep subject matter help from the IITs, but if you think the IIT's expertise is in aircraft systems integration, you must not have graduated from high school yet.
Agree that fixes which didn't remove the problem doesn't count for much but your charge was that HAL didn't even try to fix the problem hence my reply regarding the same. Forget about my graduation, where did you get the idea that I said that IIT was helping in "aircraft systems integration". They have been consulted to find a fix for the problem.

Solution of HPT-32 engine cut-off problem (CEMILAC, RCMA, DRDO)

Technical report submitted for the same

Solution of HPT-32 Engine Cut-Off Problem, A. Kushari and N. G. R. Iyanger, Submitted to RCMA, Kanpur/CEMILAC, 2007.

See what I did is called "backing up for the claims made" now if you can do the same then do it, I am not interested in your half literate dumbass claims.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sagar G »

indranilroy wrote:Well, I will try to find the SoP for HPT-32, if it is present publicly. But what I said is pretty standard for manual bailout.

Meanwhile, this is a video from BRS (the company contracted to build the PRS for HPT-32) of a successful recovery.
[youtube]?v=jgfG2DfPB6I[/youtube]
It fine Indranil maybe what you are saying is what PRS was supposed to do but the article sounded like the intention was to bring both the pilot and the plane safely in case of losing control. I am not having a speedy internet connection for the moment so can you tell me whether in the video the plane is horizontally touching the ground or get's damaged.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by NRao »

Vishnu,

Thanks for the detailed response. I better understand your predicament (I do not agree with it, but that is a different matter and a different thread).

However, let us take the following into account:
.............................
1. The draft PSQR (March 2008) was sent to HAL with a series of requirements for a BTA.
2. In its list of requirements, the IAF NEVER spelt out a requirement for a 0-0 ejection seat.
3. In its reply to the IAF, HAL OFFERED a 0-0 EJECTION SEAT.
4. The IAF was happy to accept this. ........................
...............................
HAL could not have offered and the IAF accepted a 0-0 ejection seat on a light trainer. Seems to me that both - when they started all this - had a heavier trainer in mind. So, unless something is badly missing, like I said earlier, this is plain simple goof up in communication. It seems to me that the IAF was not very sure of what it wanted until it was too late (too late from a process point of view). It seems to me, from what I have read so far, that HAL has been consistent is proposing a given trainer and that they were thinking of a heavier trainer - NOT one in the PC-7 class.

I still think this whole episode could have been avoided if the IAF started their requirements by saying they wanted a light/medium/heavy trainer. Once that was nailed the rest should have fallen into place with a few exceptions.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by nachiket »

Sagar G wrote: It fine Indranil maybe what you are saying is what PRS was supposed to do but the article sounded like the intention was to bring both the pilot and the plane safely in case of losing control. I am not having a speedy internet connection for the moment so can you tell me whether in the video the plane is horizontally touching the ground or get's damaged.
It comes down nose first and catches fire.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Indranil »

Yeah,

The idea is to try to get the plane back on its belly. But it is not always possible. There are a lot of variables here. There are other variables. In other videos, the plane turns turtle after hitting a tree. in one case it does land on its belly, but you can hear the pilot grunt through this high G stop. If the pilot is knocked unconscious and the plane catches fire in a remote place. Then it might be very difficult to recover the pilot.

Anyways, the plane in most cases would be junked. I would rather have the pilot jump out of harms way.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sagar G »

nachiket wrote:It comes down nose first and catches fire.
Thank you. If that's what PRS does generally then IAF-HAL had something different in mind for the PRS to be fitted on HPT-32 since as per the article they wanted the PRS to make sure the trainer comes down horizontally and not nose or tail first.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by member_27444 »

why not a buy plane design? two wings more safety

Biplane Fiat CR42B 323 mph
(520 km/h) 1941
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by VinodTK »

From Business Standard: An eagle in borrowed feathers
Ajai Shukla August 5, 2013 Last Updated at 21:44 IST

There have been strong public reactions to revelations in this newspaper last week about the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) advocacy of the import of a Swiss basic trainer aircraft, the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II. In 2009, the IAF lowered at least 12 important performance requirements, handing Pilatus a contract worth Swiss Franc 557 million (Rs 3,606 crore) for 75 trainers. And early last month, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, the IAF chief, wrote personally to Defence Minister A K Antony recommending that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) be ordered to halt the indigenous design and manufacture of 106 basic trainer aircraft, and the Swiss company be asked for 106 more PC-7 trainers worth at least Swiss Franc 645 million (Rs 4,226 crore) at current prices.

Sadly, most responses missed the real issue, either castigating the IAF for corruption, or insisting that the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II is an excellent choice for the IAF. The correct decision can also be a corrupt one, as the Bofors scam reminds us. But the big question is: with both the IAF and HAL crucial for Indian military aerospace, how can a working relationship be forged?

The IAF believes HAL is incompetent, has a poor work ethic and cannot design and build a basic trainer, a relatively simple aerospace task. The IAF allows HAL to build, maintain and overhaul its frontline combat fleet, but alleges - with some justification - that HAL merely knocks together Russian kits and delivers aircraft with dangerous deficiencies. But the IAF also accepts, albeit tacitly, that HAL has areas of genuine excellence - having played an important role in developing the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which it will mass produce; having designed the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), in service with the army and air force; and having undertaken the challenging development of a Light Combat Helicopter (LCH).
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Philip »

As some have said,HAL has "good,bad and ugly" boffins and managers.Results are patchy.Which is why we have a good helo. division,that within a decade should be able to design almost all future helo types for the country,but an underperforming aircraft division.As the new DRDO chief said in a report,reg. engine development,we haven't even made an auto engine indigenously (small error here,as there was some years ago a popular diesel engine made by a pvt. southern firm in the '80s who are supposed to have had a large role in developing the Nano too) ,let alone aviation engines.The problem from going through reams of reports,etc. seems to be its management structure ,lack of accountability of DPSUs,the DRDO losing talent steadily leading to a shortfall of scientific manpower, and lack of a holistic strategic attitude from the top political elite downwards,which has its effect upon the DPSUs and services.It is firefighting all the way.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by rohitvats »

After getting his ass whopped on the NDTV program and it having been shown that all his information was grossly out of context, our Colonel sahab uses the privilege of being a 'journalist' to hit back at the IAF - and it turns out to be another pathetic attempt.

First, he compares the PC-7 MK-2 purchase with Bofors (hinting at a scandal) and then, comes out with this gem of an argument to show how IAF is against domestic products.
<SNIP>This would be equally true of indigenous aircraft, but the IAF - devoid of any ethos of indigenisation, and with no structures to promote it - looks abroad at the first instance. When HAL-built HPT-32 trainers began crashing due to a flawed fuel system, the deaths of 19 pilots in 17 crashes over two decades took the IAF to Pilatus for a foreign replacement. But there is no comparable urgency in replacing MiG fighters, where the figures over the last four decades are truly devastating - of 872 MiGs in the IAF, 482 have crashed, killing 171 IAF pilots, 39 civilians and eight people from other services, according to figures tabled in Parliament.

Why has the IAF not grounded and replaced these dangerous and outdated aircraft, like it did with the HPT-32? The answer, say sceptics, is that the primary replacement for the MiG-series fighters is the indigenous Tejas fighter. Even though it is utterly safe (no Tejas has ever crashed, fingers crossed), there is no "incentive" to quickly buy the Tejas in large numbers.

It is time for Mr Antony to call in the air chief and bluntly say that the days of importing fancy fighters for lakhs of crores of rupees are over. Vapid banalities like "We will provide our brave jawans with the best equipment in the world" encourage IAF buying sprees like the Rafale and the Pilatus. The day Mr Antony musters the political courage to tell the IAF and the army that - like the navy - they will fight with whatever equipment they build, India will have taken its first step towards becoming a military power, with a functional defence industrial base
Not even the DRDO/HAL is claiming that LCA is ready for squadron service but since our friend has to lash out after the thrashing he got on NDTV program, he uses a banal and completely idiotic argument...and again, makes a bl@@dy fool of himself.

Guess, the good Colonel is not above pettiness after all.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by vina »

tsarkar wrote:Care to explain how did HTT-34 rectify HPT-32 faults?

It was just the same plane with a different engine, developed the same time as HPT-32, and not after.
If the fault was the fuel system and engine and not the basic airframe, a different fuel system and engine fixes it doesn't it ?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by vina »

Philip wrote: But a lack of government interest and the imminent phaseout of the aircraft meant no more examples were produced....

Since the MIG-21-U Type 66 Mongol trainer was available in large number,it was used for many years as the 21 was the mainstay of the IAF,pilots graduating from the Kiran to the Mongol OCU.

RAF ......Once a pilot had graduated from basic training on the BAC Jet Provost and gained their wings they were selected for one of three streams, fast jet, multi-engined or helicopters. Those selected for fast jets were posted to RAF Valley for advanced training on the Gnat T.1, typically 70 hours of flying. Student would then move on to operational training using the Hawker Hunter then a posting to an operational conversion unit for the type of aircraft to be flown.
In Inglees. Let me summarize what you wrote.

HAL produced an Ajeet (improved Gnat) trainer, that was weaponized . It was not taken up because of no interest from the Govt & IAF.

RAF - From the basic BAC Provost (the equivalent of HAL Kiran) went for "advanced training" on the Gnat T1 for 70 hrs before moving on to Hawker Hunter. So in effect the Gnat T1 was THEIR AJT.

In India, from a basic jet trainer (Kiran) rookie pilots went to MIG OFTU /Hunter OFTU and onto squadrons and many crashes happened because of that jump. So, IAF decided that an Advanced training syllabus like the RAF was necessary.

However, UNLIKE using the readily available Ajeet trainer (similar trainer as RAF), the IAF plays dog in the manger, demands the Hawk and waits 30 years before getting it and loses scores of pilots and dozens of airframes in the process due to inadequately trained pilots.

Now the Ajeet trainer could have been stamped out at literally dime a dozen, the entire infra and investment to build it would have been fully amortized under the Ajeet fighter program, there would be no need to import anything significant, no need to setup any new lines, nothing. If you wanted training aids and stuff to be incorporated, that could have been done.

But no, the IAF wanted to import a trainer by spending billions (both import and cost of setting up a line) and killed a readily available trainer which was a derivative of a well proven machine .

Classic case of Ghar Ki Murgi Daal Barabar.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by vina »

agupta wrote:Vina, seriously ? 1 Crashed prototype + 1 Flown prototype
Hmm. So you are saying you will not buy a plane that is a derivative of an earlier model, where the prototype crashed and the program was shelved ?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by vic »

IAF is also not interested in clearing the follow up of Hawk. It can either be CAT or LCA-AJT but they are dragging their feet and giving more and more orders to hawk.

IAF which is suddenly so interested in cost effective PC-7 wanted to place orders of thousands of crores on Hawk for their Air Display team
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Indranil »

vic wrote:IAF is also not interested in clearing the follow up of Hawk. It can either be CAT or LCA-AJT but they are dragging their feet and giving more and more orders to hawk.

IAF which is suddenly so interested in cost effective PC-7 wanted to place orders of thousands of crores on Hawk for their Air Display team
This is absolutely ridiculous.

IAF did not want Hawks for their Surya Kiran team. They wanted the IJT. The IJT is not ready. They don't have enough trainers. So, the Surya Kiran team was disbanded to allow the trainees to complete training. I have a question for you. Where is IJT, on which the Surya Kiran team can continue their shows. It is clear from your post that you have no idea about how much continued practice and familiarity with the aircraft is required for having an acrobatic team of the size of the Suryakirans. If IJT was ready today, they won't have been able to perform even 2 years from now. And an acrobatic team cannot start flying a plane till the entire envelop of the plane is cleared along with wake penetration tests. I would be very happy if IJT reaches that state at end of 2014.

Also where is LCA-AJT? It's last flight was close to 2 years ago. What does IAF do with the trainees?

It is great to dream of all indigenous products. I am also dream it. But IAF can't run today on the hopes of tomorrow. Because if the IAF's preparedness is compromised, the same you will hurl abuses at them.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by merlin »

Given that an acrobatic team is not a priority, IAF can very well wait for the IJT to get ready in all respects before taking it up as their acrobatic aircraft. Here I assume that the IJT will be ready at some point of time which looks more and more uncertain to me given how badly HAL has screwed this up.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Philip »

Vina,the Gnat trainer was found inadequate for an advanced trainer given the new generation of fighter aircraft arriving on the scene.We too were getting the M-2000 and MIG-29 apart from MIG-23/27 and 25s.Therefore the Gnat was rejected and a new requirement for an AJT placed before the govt.But it is not the IAF who sat on its backside for 30 years ,but the GOI/MOD! Here's a quote from a former AOC-in-C WC in 2003 when within days a MIG-23 and MIG-21 crashed.The foll. quotes are from a 2003 Sunday Tribune report.http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/200304 ... /main1.htm
“Had we bought the AJTs 10 years back, it would have cost us one-fifth of what they would now. Perhaps, if an odd Air Chief had resigned on the issue to drive home the point, it would have registered and placed the responsibility squarely on the government.”

— M. M Singh, former AOC-in-C of the Western Command
The MiG-21 was of the type-75 variant. As many as 20 MiG-23 aircrafts have crashed so far. They were inducted into the IAF two decades back and the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence has been repeatedly asking the government to phase them out. The government, however, has ruled out phasing out of these warplanes saying that massive upgradation of the MiGs was underway.
It was in the early ‘80s that IAF asked a committee to go into the causes of so many crashes. It was the La Fontaine Committee, headed by Air Chief Marshal La Fontaine, the then Chief of Air Staff himself, which had stated in unequivocal terms that the causes could be attributed to three main causes: bird hits, maintenance failure and pilot error. For pilot error, which in turn, implied a failure of the establishment to train the pilots, the main cause was the qualitative jump, which the pilot was required to take from sub-sonic aircraft like Kirans and Ishkaras to super sonic aircraft flying at Mach 2 speed, like the MiG 21. It was around 1985 that the Committee had recommended that the IAF should acquire the Advanced Jet Trainers (AJT). Acquisition of 66 aircraft was sanctioned in 1986. However, they are yet to be acquired.
As many as 62 per cent of the cases involved the MiG-21 fighters made by the HAL in the 1960s. The "human factor" caused 42 per cent of the crashes, technical malfunctions 44 per cent, and collisions with birds 7 per cent. As for the training of IAF pilots, there is complete absence of the necessary equipment and infrastructure.
Now look at this fact.HAL re-exports genuine spares from Russia to other nations and instead buys cheap substandard imports for the IAF!
Poor maintenance

The root cause of the great number of crashes of the MiG-21 fighters of the IAF is the bad maintenance and "substandard uncertified" spares to the force.

The Daily Izvestia said quoting experts that the certified quality spares imported from Russia were being re-exported by HAL to Algeria and Vietnam while the IAF was being supplied with "cheap and uncertified spares picked from former Warsaw Pact countries in Eastern Europe and CIS countries."

In some cases, the planes were a product of 'cannibalisation',with the front portion being picked from one country, wings from another and the engine from the third. Some of these planes were delivered to the IAF after overhauling in Romania, while others were overhauled on IAF's order by HAL in India.

Against this backdrop and to protect the prestige of its brand, the Russian Aircraft corporation MiG (RAC MiG) has been seeking access to the investigations into the crashes of MiG-21 trainer jets to no avail.

The Russian side has already raised some of these issues in April at the Moscow session of the Indo-Russian sub-group on aviation attended by senior officials of HAL and the IAF.
More in an interview given by Air Marshal M.M.Singh (retd)
“The Ministry of Defence is a non-professional body”

What are the reasons for so many MiG crashes?

All accidents are caused by pilot error, technical flaws and maintenance lapses.

Due to the absence of Advanced Trainer Jets, for a young pilot to make the transition from flying a Kiran to a MiG is a big leap. Since we have no intermediary aircraft, what happens is, it becomes difficult for the structural staff to impart operational training and competence to the young pilots. Fighter flying is not just about flying from A to B but learning to operate the aeroplane as a weapon of war and using it to its optimum ability. The training suffers because it is akin to trying to drive a Ferrari on a racing track after learning driving on a Maruti 800. Earlier, we had the Hunters, so from the Kiran to the Hunters was the transition. After the collapse of the erstwhile Soviet Union there was a shortage of spares so we bought a lot of spares of doubtful quality from the erstwhile satellite countries. The Russians were extremely particular about spares and there was extensive documentation with every aircraft. Moreover, a young pilot flying a high-demand aircraft can not handle an emergency.

Technically, modern aircraft have two engines whereas these aircraft have only one engine. The MiG-29 is a younger, more modern aircraft. During my tenure too we had lost few aircraft due to rear fuselage overheating. When we contacted HAL, we were told that it was due to poor maintenance or faults on the part of IAF technicians. It was only when we saw machines that had been ferried straight from the HAL factory with burn marks, before any of our technicians had even touched them, could we convince the HAL. There was very little gap between the engine and the rear fuselage. As far as assembling of parts and indigenous manufacture goes, there is a lack of stringent quality control and adequate supervision.

Why this laxity in procuring AJTs and upgradation of the existing aircraft and replacement by the LCA?

About 20 years ago, the Air Force was equipped with trans-sonic Hunters, Mysteres and Gnats. Intermediary aircraft is needed not only for flight safety but also for building up of the operational capability of the pilot. There were squadrons where young pilots would be given flying experience much before they flew fighter planes. One reason that they could not be phased out by the LCA is because we do not possess the experience, industry and manufacturing as well as design capability to manufacture LCA. The Ministry of Defence is a non-professional body and the Ministry of Finance handles defence finance, as a consequence, bureaucratic red tapism affects all decisions. If we had the money to buy Su-30, why not AJTs? Had we bought the AJTs 10 years back, it would have cost us one-fifth of what it would now. Perhaps, if an odd Air Chief had resigned on the issue to drive home the point, it would have registered and placed the responsibility squarely on the government. How can those who have been trained for revenue administration understand vital policy matters pertaining to defence? Quotations are sought, files keep going up and down and adding up but no significant decisions are ever taken. All these things have been allowed to slide for far too long. I agree that some of the defence officers too make money but all the deals are signed by the bureaucrats.
I hope the above quotes sheds more light on the entire episode and who was responsible for the same.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Austin »

Philip wrote:More in an interview given by Air Marshal M.M.Singh (retd)
“The Ministry of Defence is a non-professional body”
Interview
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/200304 ... ain1.htm#2
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Sanku »

rohitvats wrote: Guess, the good Colonel is not above pettiness after all.
After shamelessly plugging for Boeing and Americans during MRCA and when ever possible, and then doing the track II on siachen, and this and that...

Good colonel? Bad bad man more like.

He is agenda driven **every where**, and this agenda is NOT in Indian interests.
RKumar

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by RKumar »

rohitvats wrote:After getting his ass whopped on the NDTV program and it having been shown that all his information was grossly out of context, our Colonel sahab uses the privilege of being a 'journalist' to hit back at the IAF - and it turns out to be another pathetic attempt.

First, he compares the PC-7 MK-2 purchase with Bofors (hinting at a scandal) and then, comes out with this gem of an argument to show how IAF is against domestic products.

Not even the DRDO/HAL is claiming that LCA is ready for squadron service but since our friend has to lash out after the thrashing he got on NDTV program, he uses a banal and completely idiotic argument...and again, makes a bl@@dy fool of himself.

Guess, the good Colonel is not above pettiness after all.
I don't agree with you Rohit!! IAF is against domestic products, there is no doubt about that. They have tried to kill each product systemtically, be it trainers or fighters. IAF is a spolied kid, who like to play with only imported maal. You are trying to shot the messanger ... who took the courage to say and write what is correct.

BTW, If you read carefully, he never wrote that LCA is in squadon service (it is Dhruv)
RKumar

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by RKumar »

Sanku wrote:
rohitvats wrote: Guess, the good Colonel is not above pettiness after all.
After shamelessly plugging for Boeing and Americans during MRCA and when ever possible, and then doing the track II on siachen, and this and that...

Good colonel? Bad bad man more like.

He is agenda driven **every where**, and this agenda is NOT in Indian interests.
There are few here also with "agenda is NOT in Indian interests". I am not defending anymore, I am defending what is wrong in this particular case.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by Surya »

Indranil said
IAF did not want Hawks for their Surya Kiran team. They wanted the IJT. The IJT is not ready
.

even if the IJT was ready the SKAT would not use it - its too risky to use an unproven new engine for aerobatic displays where engines are gunned to extreme levels

the IJT has to be flying for some time before the SKAT would feel comfortable
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by tsarkar »

vina wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Care to explain how did HTT-34 rectify HPT-32 faults? It was just the same plane with a different engine, developed the same time as HPT-32, and not after.
If the fault was the fuel system and engine and not the basic airframe, a different fuel system and engine fixes it doesn't it ?
Fuel system is one of two faults.

Fuel system is an independent subsystem, and is not part of the engine. So replacing the engine does not solve fuel system. In my previous posts, I've mentioned the Lycoming engine powers many aircraft, none of which have fuel system problems.

Lycoming engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycoming_AEO-540
Same engine with HPT-32 http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... 2.jpg.html

Indian Navy Islanders use the same Lycoming engines for ages, and I know none have crashed because of engine or fuel problems. They've been gifted to Myanmar where they're still flying safely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britten-Norman_Islander

Before you say that some Islanders were converted to Turbo model using the same Alison engine as HTT-34, I would remind that non turbo models with Lycoming engine flew safely in Indian Navy until replaced because larger planes with more cargo capacity, range, sensors & weapons were required. PN is acquring ATR-42/72 in this role, that are larger than our Dorniers.

Coming back to HPT-32, bigger problem was poor glide ratio. Engines may fail for reasons other than fuel system. Trainees do fly erratically and the trainer needs to be tolerant.

Here is a story of a trainer without engine landing as a glider http://cyclicstories.blogspot.in/2012/0 ... -ht-2.html

Added Later - (thanks to Maz for putting the information together in the first place) http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Avia ... ander.html
Due to a requirement for pilot and observer training, an initial order for six Pilatus Britten Norman BN-2A-21 Islanders was placed with the United Kingdom. The first three aircraft arrived at Cochin on 18 May 1976 while the remaining arrived towards late 1976. Seventeen Islanders were acquired by the Indian Navy to date and at least six aircraft were upgraded to the BN-2T 'Turbine Islander' standard in 1996-97.
Islander with same Lycoming engine as HPT-32 http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Islander1.jpg
Islander with same Alison engine as HTT-34 http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Islander4.jpg

Islander with Lycoming engine flew from 1976 to atleast 2009 when they were gifted to Myanmar, where they are still flying. AFAIK, not a single Islander powered by Lycoming engine has crashed so far due to engine or fuel problems, either in India or Myanmar.

So the fuel system problem is not with the Lycoming engine, its with the flawed design of the fuel system.
Last edited by tsarkar on 06 Aug 2013 19:44, edited 2 times in total.
tsarkar
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by tsarkar »

RKumar wrote:I don't agree with you Rohit!! IAF is against domestic products, there is no doubt about that. They have tried to kill each product systemtically, be it trainers or fighters. IAF is a spolied kid, who like to play with only imported maal.
RKumar, why is a lovely HPT-32 product crashing? Why are trainees & instructors dying? Did your father flew the lovely HPT-32 product? Or did you send your son/daughter to fly in that lovely HPT-32 product?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Post by member_27444 »

India can not produce world class products till the venerable IITs IISc et al come down from high horse producing good IIM candidates or publishing papers and do some hands on kind ITI work to test their education.

Reading maketh a MAN,
Making Maketh a complete MAN

Even with imported engine Lycoming......
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