Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Manish_Sharma
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Manish_Sharma »

NRao wrote:
* IMHO under the circumstances, the F-18 is the best choice
:rotfl:

Yesss with its IRST on Fuel tank, demand for EULA - EUMA signed, and of course IAF, HAL have still not recovered from 98' sanctions on LCA.

There is no way IAF is going to have 200 of its a/cs being held hostage to the whims of extreme mood-swinging, control freak khan.

And those heave carrier legs for landing, plus couldn't even take off with any load from Leh. Bah! minor nitwits.

Why not go for Su-35S incase we are going for such a heavyweight as hornet?
NRao
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

^^^^^

Very little I can do to educate someone who is stuck in the 1990s.

However, yes, the IRST is a big issue, the EULA/EUMA are not (India has stated they will not sign them) - India will not get a few goodies at worst, but that should not matter since India should have alternatives. On sanctions, India has recovered - the LCA delays have nothing to do with design/development.

On control freak, have posted: India and US armed forces are considering procuring together and there was one report within the last week that the US may get a base in India - we will have to wait to see how real that is, but it is there.

On Leh, this from 2010: Four MMRCA Contenders Fail Leh Trials! (yes 4/four failed Leh tests) AND this from Feb 2013: 'LCA Tejas likely to be ready for operational service by 2015'
IAF chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne wrote:Talking to reporters, the IAF chief said the indigenous aircraft will have to be modified further for operating in high-altitude areas as recently during trials in Leh, its engine "did not work".

......................................................................

"Recently we went for high-altitude trials. The engine (of LCA) did not work at that altitude because it is a different cup of tea. Even the Su-30, when it was taken to Leh, it had to be modified. So, the LCA will have to be modified. It has to do the retrials," he said.
(IIRC, the GE engine was worked on and the tests progressed - in both the F-18 and the LCA. ????? )

Leh is Leh. Everyone has to prostrate in front of her.

On Su-35s (or for that matter any other - including MiGs) the reason is diversification of sources - that is from the Indian IAF/MoD, who had suggested that the Russians not participate in the MMRCA competition.

And since emoticons are the fad: Image to read 1990s mindset and Image - read up.

And finally please learn to read a post before comment on it. My reasons still stand. The risks WRT the Rafale will be rather huge. Great fighter, they will deliver, etc., etc., but it is a huge financial risk.

OK Image

Very, very slow night folks. Sorry.
Philip
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

NR,US base in India? That contradicts another recent report on the MEA/MOD alarm over a US plan to sign an agreement with the Maldives,which will allow them to station naval and other forces anywhere in Maldivian territory. The US further is leaving the region-Afghanistan ,and we have already allowed in the past US mil.forces to transit India while on their way to the Gulf in GW2.If we are reluctant to sign the EULA/EUMA,allowing the US a ""base" on Indian soil would provoke a huge political backlash.I also don't see what we will "procure together" in the future ,given the controversy about "indigenisation" etc. We have already acquired major arms P-8s,C-17s,will get Apaches,Chinooks and light howitzers.What else is on the list? US naval arms are exceptionally expensive.ASW helos is one area where Sikorsky has a strong chance against the NH-90.
NRao
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

Again, cannot help if you do not keep up and ramble.

The article on a potential base is in the international thread. And what has Maldives and a'sthan to do with all this is beyond me. The US opposes indo-Iranian efforts but it does Not prevent other efforts between the two. Your thinking too is rather dated and too Russian inclined.
Philip
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

NR,It is not my "Russian" thinking, incorrectly attributed, but that of the establishment! I am merely the postman. If our ties with our "strategic partner" the US are so great why isn't the USN also leasing to us any of its nuclear subs unlike the Russians,nuclear sub tech. or providing us with carriers too? Why did we also reject the two US birds for the MMRCA deal,or refuse an offer for the JSF which was made before we signed on for the FGFA? These decisions have been taken by the services,MOD and cleared by the GOI.I try and analyse why they have been made and shed some light on the issue.

NR,I've always enunciated the policy,"horses for courses",what serves our national interests best ,and if we have to buy from abroad ,let's buy the best "horse" for the job in hand.It is a simple fact that the Russians have been more obliging to us than other nations in parting with their best wares at reasonable cost all along.We have now diversified our supply chain from abroad,from both east and west,a wise decision,and we now have the dubious reputation of being the "world's largest arms purchaser",with $100 billion to be spent in the next few years,thanks to the shining performance of our DPSUs which have underperformed.But if anyone thinks that we are about to abandon our independent foreign policy,watered down though it may be,and jump into the arms of Uncle Sam as a panacea for all threats,they are sadly mistaken.Replacing an overdependence upon Russsia with Uncle Sam makes no sense at all.Even during the Indo-Sovier Friendship Treaty days,which allowed us to sever Pak into two,when we had the closest of ties,Mrs.G. never offered the Soviets a mil. base in India.To expect a wimp of a regime like our current dispensation to take such a "courageous",read foolhardy step,is optimistic in the extreme.

However,if India develops a closer mil. relationship with the US,which is happening with our slew of US arms bought,as a counter to China,the PRC have only themselves to blame.Their crude aggro. in the Himalayas,plus even cruder diplomatic insults on the eve of high-level visits on either side,"chit visas" etc.,as if we were a suzerain lackey of the Middle Kingdom, has its own backlash. Our Chanakyas have to devise a strategy whereby we are feted by all but still retain our independence of thought and action,eschewing being drawn into other nation's wars,thus reinforcing our soveriegnty.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by abhik »

Philip wrote:Abhik,if one goes by costs,of the lot evaluated,the MIG-35 and Gripen are the cheapest,F-16 next.The F-18SH also comes in near the Rafale.The IAF shortlisted the two Eurocanards from the tech evaluation.I doubt that we will go through the laborious exercise of finding an alternative which will never be finalised before the elections...
Why should one foreign fighter replace another? Why not the indigenous LCA? Is there some sort of mental block?
I'm not aware of any discussion study to ascertain whether the Rafale is actually affordable or is the best choice for us.
being expressed about HAL's ability to deliver,to buy more off the shelf as many recommend which will guarantee that the IAF gets enough operational fighters until HAL is able to get its act together.If we could buy 40+ M-2000s off the shelf,why not do the same with the Rafale?
Buying the Rafale because HAL may not get its act together on the LCA is a load of BS. HAL may have 100's of shortcomings, but why is it being portrayed as a terminal patient with an incurable disease. Did DRDO and HDL have zero problems in developing and manufacturing the strategic missile? There have been problems, delays and defects. And all the problems were fixed(or are being fixed in a continuous process) because they had to, because there was no other option. So why is there no interest in fixing HAL? It is simply because of the vested interests that profit from weapon imports. They avoid scrutiny by saying "don't mess with national security" or "get the best for our troops". And its really sad see that most people including BRFits falling for it. The day we stop thinking of imports as an options is the day the problems will get fixed.
Manish_Sharma
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Manish_Sharma »

NRao wrote:However, yes, the IRST is a big issue...
Hmmm that's it a big issue? Isn't big enough to stop some people from peddling shornet, obviously.
....the EULA/EUMA are not (India has stated they will not sign them) - India will not get a few goodies at worst, but that should not matter since India should have alternatives. On sanctions, India has recovered - the LCA delays have nothing to do with design/development.
So easily now it becomes IRST a big issue + India will not get a few goodies at worst
Its just the beginning of the post and already we have so many minuses..... but no big deal. :roll:
On control freak, have posted: India and US armed forces are considering procuring together and there was one report within the last week that the US may get a base in India - we will have to wait to see how real that is, but it is there.
:shock:
And thats a good thing? :roll: Chalo wellwisherness of Bharatvarsh is now in open. When you think having a US adda in Bharat is a good thing.
(IIRC, the GE engine was worked on and the tests progressed - in both the F-18 and the LCA. ????? )
....anything is acceptable in case of LCA, but phat panting queen f-18 is already develped platform, which doesn't even have space for IRST at all, why should we be paying big money and reject platforms which had no problems taking off from leh with less ground-run used by rafale with more payload.
Leh is Leh. Everyone has to prostrate in front of her.
Rafale and Mig 35 didn't.
On Su-35s (or for that matter any other - including MiGs) the reason is diversification of sources - that is from the Indian IAF/MoD, who had suggested that the Russians not participate in the MMRCA competition.
Fine I accept, I say kick out russians along with americans. So no Mig/Su 35s with phat teen queens.
And finally please learn to read a post before comment on it. My reasons still stand. The risks WRT the Rafale will be rather huge.
What is superior attitude? I've read the whole post and saw it as a buildup to what it always is for last 5 years : BUY THE SHORNET

Rafale has some magical things already which hornet can never hope to achieve and a true MMRCA:
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryfor ... ofcomments
Rafale has excellent payload for its small size. Officially Rafale C can carry a incredible 20900 pounds of payload despite the fact that it is slightly smaller than Typhoon which can carry only 16500 pounds.

The payload of Rafale C is also officially MORE than F-18EF ( F-18EF is 42% larger than rafale C, but F-18ef carries only 17700 pound officially).

And this is not all. When Rafale get its uprated M88-3 engine and when the new 3000 liter (792.6gals) center line external fuel tank is being qualified for use, rafale external payload weight will further increase to almost 23000 pound !!! Thats almost the same as the 24000 pounds achieve by the 50-65% larger F-15E.

Rafale C MTOW will soon be increase to 60,000 pounds. Rafale C is about 20680 pound when empty. Its MTOW to empty weight ratio is 2.9 times !!

F-15E MTOW to empty ratio is 2.56 or less. F-15E probably rank second.

No other airplane is close or even close. eurofighter Typhoon MTWO to empty weight is only 2.14 !

B-2 bomber may have highere MTOW to empty weight ratio. But B-2 is a subsonic load carrying bomber. For fighter plane comparison Rafale C MTOW to empty weight ratio is HIGHEST among all supersonic fighter aircraft.
I'm not stuck in 90s thinking, it is called learning from the history. All this non-fighting with US is happening 'cause of mms kind of person in charge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6t6hOVp ... 9962B9F732

Decision to buy SHORNET etc. will seriously handicap next PM to make independent decisions like Shakti-2 etc.

It can't be decided by NRao that baaah!!! we are not going to go make any decision which US doesn't approve of for next 40 years.

That's the big risk in buying teens, that is it'll take away the decision making of next PMs. The moment they rile US, 30% of IAF jets will be grounded with sanction.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

the rafale might be able to get off the ground with such a massive payload but how nimble and fast will it be? generally a/c around the MTOW do not fly so well. a typical payload of the rafale could be perhaps 4 LGB and 4 AAM. 6 bombs if carrying AASM.
note that due to small size the rafale almost always carries two huge wing fuel tanks (if not a third one below fuselage)..this surely adds to drag and reduced manouverability.
the F15E has a smooth CFT , more choices in pylons back to the tailpipe...it cannot match the rafale in ACM for sure, but as a big rugged bomb truck it surely has advantages if you want to max out .... same goes for SU30...it can carry upto around 20 x 100kg bombs as we saw in vayu shakti.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

I say scale down raffy to about 55+25 option buy.. this is not going anywhere now. the cost and french politics alone is enough to pull and tear things down, and forget about khan hydes and jackals.

bump up MKI++, the 35 version meanwhile, and get the LCA Mk2 on a revved up schedule.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

MS,

You obviously have not read my postS.

(My post is NOT about F-18 > Rafale, and since all the good points you make are NOT related to my post, I just do not see a need to go further. What you have posted has been discussed ad nauseum for around a decade. Good points !!!

So IF you want to discuss anything related to what I posted, please read MY post (not what others have stated for 5+ years).

Thanks.)


Philip,

Same with you.

I cannot, and am not going to get sucked into, circular discussions. Why FGFA and not the F-35, or the potential of a US base in India or for that matter why anything else - dunno. All I can say and have said for more than 10 years now - India and the US will get closer (that "strategic partnership" in your post is your making, I have never said that and have not heard it anywhere else). They have to (get closer) is what I have said. For better or worse - dunno.

Thanks.
abhik
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by abhik »

Manish_Sharma wrote: ...
Decision to buy SHORNET etc. will seriously handicap next PM to make independent decisions like Shakti-2 etc.
Say it is in our best interest to dissuade France from overtly attacking Syria, take up the same role that Russia or China is playing today.
You think we will be able to act independently France after becoming dependent on them for our armaments?
Manish_Sharma
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Manish_Sharma »

^Yes historically when we decided to give M2K as nuke carrier role and wanted to make changes in the airframes, the french didn't object, I'm not sure but I think they even helped.

M2k's role in kargil and the changes again we made, there was no objections from france.

And who can forget during Shakti tests when whole world was against us, even russia was forced to issue a criticizing statement. Monsieur Jacques Chirac's the great president of France was all support towards Bharat. We should show our gratitude.

I hold this as a personal view that even if Shakti 2 tests were to happen, France won't sanction us.

Its the US that likes to play the puppeteer, the great control-freak , sanctimonious b*&$%$ that like to steer other countries' foreign and domestic policies, France hasn't shown any such qualities ever atleast in Bhartiya-Upmahadweep (Pakistan-Bharat-Bangladesh-Sri Lanka-Myamar).
abhik
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by abhik »

what about the C130s that they lent us during 1962? If I'm not wrong that is the only instance of another country actively helping us in a conflict with its forces. Yet in the threatened us in 1971. At the end of the day it is all about interests of the countries converging or conflicting. If we are to have a truly independent foreign/security policy then all our armaments must be indigenous. That's why my vote goes to the LCA. This Russia / France >> USA thing is moot.
Manish_Sharma wrote:^Yes historically when we decided to give M2K as nuke carrier role and wanted to make changes in the airframes, the french didn't object, I'm not sure but I think they even helped.

M2k's role in kargil and the changes again we made, there was no objections from france.
Those M2ks were fully paid for by India. Do you have any sources on what changes were made to make it a nuke carrier and hoe France helped? Even Pakistan was able to convert their f-16 for this role even while they were under US sanctions. I don't see why we have to be beholden to them.
And who can forget during Shakti tests when whole world was against us, even russia was forced to issue a criticizing statement. Monsieur Jacques Chirac's the great president of France was all support towards Bharat. We should show our gratitude.

I hold this as a personal view that even if Shakti 2 tests were to happen, France won't sanction us.
What's this with showing our gratitude? France is a 3-rate power and it not sanctioning changes very little. It was the US that got us the nuclear deal and the quasi-nuclear state status. Also France did what it did because it assessed that it would be profitable(wrt weapon, power reactor sales etc) in the future not because they had some sort of love or even common interest.
Its the US that likes to play the puppeteer, the great control-freak , sanctimonious b*&$%$ that like to steer other countries' foreign and domestic policies, France hasn't shown any such qualities ever atleast in Bhartiya-Upmahadweep (Pakistan-Bharat-Bangladesh-Sri Lanka-Myamar).
France has destabilized 2 countries(Libya and Syria, they were either friendly or at least agnostic to India) the and interfered in another(Mali), all in the last 2-3 years. Seems to me like its record in "steer other countries' foreign and domestic policies" is much worse than the Americans. The only reason we haven't seen their harami^$(%i here is because they have limited capacity to interfere. On the other hand,the Americans being the sole superpower has its finger in every pie so as to speak.
And as far as the US being a control freak, it has in the past passively armed a country with nuclear weapons and looked the other way while another was acquiring nuclear weapons. Again it all depends on converging interests or conflicting ones.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Manish_Sharma »

abhik wrote:what about the C130s that they lent us during 1962? If I'm not wrong that is the only instance of another country actively helping us in a conflict with its forces. Yet in the threatened us in 1971. At the end of the day it is all about interests of the countries converging or conflicting. If we are to have a truly independent foreign/security policy then all our armaments must be indigenous.
Nah! It's more the pattern of behavior or certain characteristic, here US is a controlfreak who wants to control the world. Bush's "you are either against us or with us" actually sums up the US thinking.
Those M2ks were fully paid for by India. Do you have any sources on what changes were made to make it a nuke carrier and hoe France helped? Even Pakistan was able to convert their f-16 for this role even while they were under US sanctions. I don't see why we have to be beholden to them.
Hudd ho gayi, ok those M2ks were fully paid by us so we've the right. Yet you are doing = = to france and US, inspite of we paying full amount for P8Is and yet the US is going to inspect them every year. Don't you want to say "hey we paid for them who the eff are american c$&$(*%$ to have a right to inspect them every year. Instead you are hell bent upon doing == to france and US. Imagine we rigging P8Is or C-130s for nukes.
What's this with showing our gratitude?
It sets an example for other nations that Bharat has elephant memory, we don't forget the people who have helped us in bad times.
France is a 3-rate power and it not sanctioning changes very little.

Ok I'm fine with it if the 3rd rate power won't sanction us then why don't we go with them. Instead of 1st rate superpower US which can sanction us at the drop of a hat. Don't you think its a good reason to go with french? :wink:
It was the US that got us the nuclear deal and the quasi-nuclear state status. Also France did what it did because it assessed that it would be profitable(wrt weapon, power reactor sales etc) in the future not because they had some sort of love or even common interest.
Let me confess, that I don't understand the nuclear matters but whatever I read in those threads has made up my mediocre mind against it. IIRC alongwith Sanku I think even Arun_S was against it. Remember going through the discussion in myriad pages without understanding much. :oops: Intuitively I felt it was a bad deal for our nation. Especially mms and money take ahluwalia, I don't think can do anything good for the nation.
France has destabilized 2 countries(Libya and Syria, they were either friendly or at least agnostic to India) the and interfered in another(Mali), all in the last 2-3 years. Seems to me like its record in "steer other countries' foreign and domestic policies" is much worse than the Americans. The only reason we haven't seen their harami^$(%i here is because they have limited capacity to interfere. On the other hand,the Americans being the sole superpower has its finger in every pie so as to speak.
I've secret pleasure whenever there is a destablisation in any of ME countries and local population suffers/dies. I know a terrible thing to feel happy for. But I remember the pain these c^%@#&^* have brought on our country and want to given chance. Wasn't syrians who had given squadrons of jets to pakistan during 1972 or 65' war? Hope they go through lots of bloodshed and turn into zombiland. :twisted:
AS I POINTED OUT IN EARLIER POST I REPEAT IN RED:
France hasn't shown any such qualities ever atleast in Bhartiya-Upmahadweep (Pakistan-Bharat-Bangladesh-Sri Lanka-Myamar)., So let them play havoc in ME or Africa Bhartiya-Upmahadweep is too big for them, so no risk.
And as far as the US being a control freak, it has in the past passively armed a country with nuclear weapons and looked the other way while another was acquiring nuclear weapons. Again it all depends on converging interests or conflicting ones.
Yes it has always looked away while porkis and chinese were doing their N-naughtiness. In fact the deal was chinees provide pakis with warheads and washington supplies the carrier platform (F Solah).

But it'll never ever happen for Bharatvarsh. US won't allow that for us. Just can't trust them.

Philip's point is irrefutable, if US is such a good friend then they should lease us couple of 'Seawolf Subs' like russkies.

Let the W-87 warhead secrets be happily stolen for Bharat just like they let chinese steal them. :D
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_24670 »

Good job choosing Rafale?

Fighter Flaws

Warplane Costs Soar amid Mismanagment


Defense contractor EADS appears to have cut corners in its construction of the Eurofighter jet for the German military. The government faces billions in additional costs, but it doesn't want taxpayers to find out until after federal election this fall.

It's an incident that the German military would rather have kept secret. On July 27, 2007, a Eurofighter was flying at low altitude above the Neuburg Air Base in Upper Bavaria when the pilot suddenly spotted a flock of birds in front of the plane.

His first instinct was to quickly pull his plane, with the registration number 30+39, to the side to avoid hitting the birds. But then, unexpectedly, the aircraft spontaneously rolled to the side by 90 degrees.

Personnel in the control tower panicked as the jet sped towards them. Only at the last second did the pilot manage to regain control of the jet. The investigative report by the military, or Bundeswehr, referred to the incident as a "bank angle overshoot," noting drily that "the unexpected behavior" could have resulted in the "loss of the aircraft." In other words, the jet barely escaped going down in flames.

A software error was to blame, but it wasn't the only problem that would be found in Eurofighter jets. Together with European partners, the company that eventually became defense contractor EADS took 25 years to develop and produce the aircraft. Their aim was to prove that the Americans weren't the only ones capable of building high-tech fighter jets, but what has become Europe's largest defense project was ill-fated from the start.

The mere fact that the aircraft was once known as the "Jäger 90" (Hunter 90) in Germany reveals the extent of the project's failure. After dramatic delays in development, the jet was renamed "Eurofighter," and even today, all 180 jets originally ordered by the Bundeswehr still haven't been delivered.

'Another Debacle' Looms

Now internal documents show that the aircraft's problems are much more serious than previously known. In addition, SPIEGEL calculations indicate that, by the end of this year, the Bundeswehr will already have spent €14.5 billion ($18.6 billion) of the roughly €14.7 billion that the German parliament has approved for the program. But when the money is used up, only 108 of the 143 Eurofighters ordered to date, not to mention the 180 originally planned, will have been delivered. EADS will not continue making the planes for free, though.

Even the Bundeswehr estimates the cost of the program at €16.8 billion by 2018. But that represents only 143 delivered aircraft. The last jets, part of the so-called Tranche 3 B, will cost the government billions more.

It appears that German citizens will not be informed of the true costs of the Eurofighter before the national election on Sept. 22, at least according to the Defense Ministry's plan. The case is now closed and there is "currently no reason" for further discussion of the subject, officials there say.

EADS is also unwilling to make things difficult for the government at the moment, and currently has no plans to submit a new bid. The company has no interest in making even more trouble for Defense Minister Thomas de Maizière, who is already under fire. The opposition, on the other hand, wants clarity. "After the 'Euro Hawk,' this threatens to become yet another defense debacle at the taxpayers' expense," says Rainer Arnold, a defense policy expert with the center-left Social Democratic Party (SPD), in reference to the recent cancellation of the Euro Hawk surveillance drone program, which wasted some €500 million.

One reason behind the skyrocketing costs of the Eurofighter is the apparently unprecedented sloppiness in production. SPIEGEL has obtained documents from the Bundeswehr and EADS that provide an insight into the problems. There was so much mismanagement that, on Oct. 1, 2008, the military did not extend the license to remain a Bundeswehr aviation site for an EADS plant in the Bavarian town of Manching.

Costs Get Out of Hand

What seems like a straightforward administrative procedure may have serious consequences. Even after the loss of the license, aircraft were still put into service, and the Bundeswehr, as the purchaser of the aircraft, reportedly inspected them a little more carefully, only to issue its stamp of approval, after all. This is highly controversial from a legal standpoint. If a Eurofighter were to crash over Germany, courts could reach the conclusion that the planes should never have been allowed to take off in the first place.

The Eurofighter's story is one of broken promises. When the jet's predecessor was conceived in the 1980s, shortly after Helmut Kohl came into office as chancellor, the industry guaranteed that it could build the aircraft at a cost of 65 million deutsche marks apiece. But the costs continually increased after that.

The figure had gone up to 130 million deutsche marks by the early 1990s, and when the Bundestag budget committee finally decided to order the aircraft in 1997, it set a new price ceiling: 180 aircraft were to cost no more than €11.8 billion. The price took into account the fact that the planes had been technically downgraded, an effort by then Defense Minister Volker Rühe to prevent the price from continuing to rise.

But it didn't do any good. In 2004, the price cap on the total order was increased by another €250 million. By then, Chancellor Gerhard Schröder was in office. In the current draft budget for 2013, the costs are estimated at close to €17 billion.

But this is still an estimate based on the most favorable assumptions, which will not be sufficient, as Chancellor Angela Merkel knows all too well. That's because the last 37 aircraft the Bundestag will receive are among those with the most complex technology. They are jets with "multiple banking capability," which can both engage in air strikes and intercept enemy aircraft.

This version of the Eurofighter will also be the most expensive, which means that the Bundeswehr faces a dilemma. On the one hand, its budget is almost exhausted. On the other hand, it is determined not to do without the most state-of-the-art version of the Eurofighter. The Defense Ministry is now officially saying that a decision on the purchase of the tranche hasn't been reached yet. "We are currently reviewing the next steps," the ministry writes in a statement. But it was only at the end of June that the deputy department head in charge of procurement at the ministry presented puzzled industry executives with an old, new number: 180.

Who Is to Blame?

There is a plan to sell the aircraft that were initially delivered to the German air force, which would generate several hundred million euros in revenue. But the jets are now outdated, and NATO partners are only marginally interested.

Behind the scenes, finger-pointing has already begun over who is to blame for the upcoming debacle. Officials at EADS say costs increased because the German Air Force was constantly adding new, special requests. The defense minister denies all responsibility and blames the cost increase on inflation.

But both sides are trying to conceal the fact that there could be a very simple reason for the explosion in the cost of the Eurofighter -- sloppy production, for which both EADS and the Bundeswehr were responsible. While EADS was long unable to come to grips with problems at the Manching plant, the Bundeswehr tolerated the lax production standards for too long.

The Federal Office for Arms Technology and Procurement in the western city of Koblenz is in charge of supervising EADS. The Bundeswehr's largest agency, with some 9,600 employees, it maintains field offices at the major production plants of German defense contractors, including the Manching EADS plant.

Soon after the first Eurofighters left the plant, officials there encountered problems. On Aug. 23, 2004, they noted that the plant lacked specially trained employees to supervise each individual step in the production of the highly complex aircraft. Without functioning quality management, the plant's license as a recognized aviation operation for the Bundeswehr is no longer valid. At the time, inspectors threatened to extend the license only if a long list of deficiencies were corrected.

Despite the warnings, little happened. On March 31, 2006, a Eurofighter with the registration number 98+03 took off on a flight bound for Jever Air Base in northern Germany. What the pilot didn't know was that the bolt holding the nose landing gear in its bracket was not properly secured, causing it to loosen during the flight. When the unsuspecting pilot landed, the landing gear was already hanging at an angle underneath the jet. He was lucky the landing gear didn't collapse.

According to an insider, EADS did not report the incident at first. But the Air Force's flight supervision office was notified, and the entire Eurofighter fleet was grounded immediately. The cause of the problem was quickly determined: the bolt had been improperly installed. EADS was compelled to analyze the entire production process.

Errors and Carelessness

In a memorandum dated April 27, 2006, the company was forced to make the rueful confession that the problem was the result of production errors and carelessness. The incident had far-reaching consequences. Production had to be stopped, and all aircraft produced until then had to be inspected for similar assembly errors.
German taxpayers paid the costs of two employees' careless work. Not surprisingly, the EADS inspectors found no evidence of gross negligence. This saved their company a lot of money, because the Eurofighter contract stipulated that the manufacturer was only liable for production defects in such a case.

Relations between EADS and the Bundeswehr soured over time. The company complained to the Defense Ministry in Berlin about the fastidious inspectors at the Bundeswehr procurement office. The inspectors, for their part, complained that they had to inspect defective aircraft up to three times. Sometimes there were leaks in the tanks, and sometimes the aircraft behaved in unexpected ways, such as a cockpit canopy opening on its own while the plane was taxiing for takeoff.

An internal list from Austria reveals the poor quality of the Eurofighters at the time. Between 2007 and 2009, the Austrian Air Force took delivery of 15 first-generation Eurofighters, most of which had been intended for the Bundeswehr. By May 2011, an employee had chronicled 68 defects in the aircraft that had led to emergencies.

For example, it turned out that the altimeter was off by up to 60 meters (197 feet), which could be fatal for the pilot in an emergency. The Austrians requested an F-4 Phantom from the German Air Force, so that it could accompany two defective Eurofighters for a comparison of altimeter displays. But something happened before the test could be done: The electronic system of one of the Eurofighters was pumping kerosene incorrectly, throwing the plane dangerously off balance, which could have caused it to crash. When SPIEGEL contacted EADS, the company denied that it had found any quality defects in its own product.

On the Fringes of Legality

But the German inspectors are well aware of the reported defects in the Austrian planes, because the Defense Ministry in Berlin compelled them to handle routine testing for the Austrians.

Officials at the Bundeswehr procurement office gradually decided to bare their teeth to EADS for the first time. On Sept. 30, 2008, the Bundeswehr allowed the Manching plant's license as a recognized aviation operation to expire. In a March 2008 letter addressed to Bernhard Gerwert, the head of EADS Deutschland Military Air Systems, the Koblenz office cited "substantial mistakes and defects in the quality management system."

Speaking notes for the agency head contain concrete figures and state that "35 defects in the production process were discovered and documented during the final inspection." The documents also note that quality management found 49 defects within seven months.

This is why, in the letter to Gerwert, the Koblenz inspectors also noted: "From the standpoint of aviation, liability and licensing laws, the current state is no longer acceptable by the customer."

But by withdrawing the license, the inspectors also placed themselves in a delicate position, because they were acting on the fringes of legality. They had certified a number of Eurofighters for service in the Air Force, even though the manufacturer no longer held the necessary license.

The fighter jets were given regular registration numbers, like 30+45, 30+15 and 31+22. This allowed them to fly in German air space, and they were even sent to an air show in Hungary. Fortunately, there were no incidents, or else court judges would probably have taken a very close look at the circumstances of their licensing.

Unlimited Liability

The inspectors at the Bundeswehr procurement office are aware of the sensitive legal situation. They are personally liable for the signatures on the documents after the final test of each Eurofighter. Some threatened to withhold their approval. There is also a significant risk for the government, because the Bundeswehr, unlike civil aviation authorities, has unlimited liability for losses resulting from an accident. Commenting on this in an internal memo, a concerned official wrote: "If a Bundeswehr plane crashes and causes substantial damage to third parties that can be attributed to the withdrawal of certification, the federal government will be fully liable."

The supervisors at the procurement office and the Defense Ministry ignored the memo, because the ministry was determined to get the plane no matter what. Pilots at German air bases were already waiting anxiously for the Eurofighter, which was supposed to replace the more than 30-year-old Phantom jets made by American defense contractor McDonnell Douglas.

Orders were given to inspect the aircraft somewhat more carefully and then approve them. According to the documents in SPIEGEL's possession, this condition lasted until April 6, 2011, which both the Bundeswehr and EADS deny.

The relationship between EADS and the German Defense Ministry is poisoned, partly because EADS knows how to circumvent the rules and provoke officials.

Some time ago, say officials in Koblenz, a potential foreign buyer paid a visit to the Manching plant. Unfortunately, there was only one Bundeswehr aircraft in the hangar on that day, and it also lacked the licensing stamp. When the Bundeswehr test pilots refused to fly the plane, an EADS pilot promptly took the plane out on a short demonstration flight.

Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan

URL:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 10231.html
vic
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by vic »

I think we should demand some essential goodies in lieu of Rafale order. My list:-

Neuron UCAV design and tech

Engine tech

Assistance in AMCA and MLH

AESA Radar for Fighter Aircrafts
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

havent we been over this? unless they assign 1000 top level engineers to renounce french passport and take up our passport, such TOT cannot occur. manuals and machines are useless without the people who can figure out how to design and build the n=n+1 manual and machine.

they would be happy to build and sell us a M88-4 or a RBE2-AA-XL if we paid for it.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by JTull »

EADS is being pushed to divest it's 46% stake (worth €4bln or $5.3bln) in Dassault
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/ ... D520130805
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ba094396-fd21 ... z2bA6S5Frk

This could be an opportunity for Indian govt. or their Indian partner (Reliance) to get in and have greater say in future plans.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

under someone like PVNR or even ABV we could have proposed picking up 25% stake in dassault at this juncture when their future survival looks shaky. high enough to have a say and setup dassault facilities in india, low enough to keep the french govt within a comfort zone. gradually use chipanda tactics to creep fwd with bailout pkgs and get 50% :)

as goes dassault so does snecma on mil engine side. we could get our probes in there as well. they could split their CFM side and M88 side....
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

Dont think a NATO country would ever sell its stake to any other other then their own clan ..So all this talk of buying Dassault , Sukhoi etc is just a non starter ....for strategic reason no country would ever sell these assets except within trusted allies bounded by partnership.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

well trusted all-lies like germany, spain, italy have no money or no domestic political support to spend heavily on next gen toys.
so granted we are not particularly gora but our congi rulers are tfta! just like japani were given honorary gora status and later taiwan and soko, it all depends on which economic trajectory the partner is ... baki the rewriting of history on more favourable terms and slapping the media to get the right discourse going can be managed overnight by paree.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

we are shooting ourselves in foot, by discouraging indigenous developments. we need more funds on LCA Mk++. we need to speed up our plans there. tfta babooze are brainless when it comes to investing in the right areas, and it becomes the responsibility of respective orgs to ensure they do a good job and claim their budget share.. may be the heads of these orgs, have some issues in projecting themselves.. to much sdre-ness is hurting us.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Kartik »

Tactical Missile Corp is working on a deal with Dassault to integrate Kh-31P and PD onto the Rafale in the 2014-2015 timeframe..So its the Kh-31P ARM for the Rafale. Integration cost - $36.8 million.

link to article
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

The French were so acrimonious when Mittal picked up Arcelor,so any thought that they would hand over a 25% stake in the jewel in their defence crown could be misplaced.

NR and others,I would be delighted if the LCA was available,but even MK-1 has yet to be inducted,only a year hence and official production rates are very low for the same,8-12 max.We will never have enough made by HAL before 2020 to replace the hundreds of MIGs to be retd.In fact even if the Rafale arrives as scheduled we would still have a shortfall as I've pointed out in other posts of a couple of hundred aircraft at least.Had we had only one major enemy,or two in the same compass direction,a lesser number of more capable aircraft could've possibly been enough.However,with a two-front scenario a very serious possibility and the IAF's recent exercises wargaming for the same,any aircraft in service cannot be in two places at the same time.Numbers matter.

The US claims to be our "strategic partner" but at the same time denies us a lot that we would like.It also supports Pak to the hilt in overt and covert funding,mil-ware and intel. While sales have been concluded using FMS,read Ramanna's scathing take on the same,where it is being used merely to keep St.Anthony's backside "clean",while we end up paying much more than we should.

In the interests of the IAF and nation,the Rafale deal should be inked asap for first acquisition of aircraft from France,just as we did with the M-2000s,but double the qty.We can then iron out the responsibility issues of quality of local manufacture within certain cost and time-bound parameters fixed right now.LCA Mk-1 or MK-2 cannot replace the Rafale,they can replace old MIG-21s only.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by abhik »

Philip wrote: NR and others,I would be delighted if the LCA was available,but even MK-1 has yet to be inducted,only a year hence and official production rates are very low for the same,8-12 max.We will never have enough made by HAL before 2020 to replace the hundreds of MIGs to be retd.In fact even if the Rafale arrives as scheduled we would still have a shortfall as I've pointed out in other posts of a couple of hundred aircraft at least.Had we had only one major enemy,or two in the same compass direction,a lesser number of more capable aircraft could've possibly been enough.However,with a two-front scenario a very serious possibility and the IAF's recent exercises wargaming for the same,any aircraft in service cannot be in two places at the same time.Numbers matter.
Bizarre logic I must say, If numbers matter then why choose the Rafale over the LCA?
->Rafale is an expensive aircraft i.e. the same amount of money will buy you lesser aircraft. And expect it to get only more expensive with the recent cuts by the French.
->Even in the best case scenario for the Rafale, it(direct imports) will start being inducted after the LCA(Mk 1) is already in service.
->If all goes to plan by 2020 around ~30 Rafales at best will be inducted. During the same time frame the LCA(Mk 2) will be ready for production, which is reasonable given DRDO's estimate is 2018 AFAIK.
->HAL may be having problems in getting the LCA plant up and running but that doesn't mean its is unsolvable. Why presume that HAL will never be able to ramp up production of the LCA? The official rate targets are low simply not because of some bottleneck with the HAL but are commensurate with the low total expected orders(actual number officially only 20). Let HAL be given orders enough for 40-50 fighters a year. If and when it fails, then you can blame it.
In the interests of the IAF and nation,the Rafale deal should be inked asap for first acquisition of aircraft from France,just as we did with the M-2000s,but double the qty.We can then iron out the responsibility issues of quality of local manufacture within certain cost and time-bound parameters fixed right now.LCA Mk-1 or MK-2 cannot replace the Rafale,they can replace old MIG-21s only.
MRCA started out to make up for falling squadron numbers and the non availability of the LCA. Now that the MRCA itself has fallen behind the LCA, requirements are being added ex post facto to justify the buy.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

Where is the LCA in production in MK-2 definitive form? 5 years from now at the very least! The Rafale is a mature aircraft that has seen much combat in Afghanistan,Libya,etc. There is even a naval variant on board the CDG. The LCA cannot carry the same amount of munitions,or has the range.As far as nuclear capability is concerned ,the Jaguar was rejected for the toss-bombing role some moons ago because of the very small space left after underbody carriage,which led to the M-2000 being chosen.There is absolutely no problem in the Rafale fitting the bill for the nuclear role,as it would have afar greater capability than the M-2000 of penetrating Paki airspace and delivering the goods.(est. size of our N-munitions-on the M-2000, is that of an underbelly drop tank).

Rafales can be produced at the healthy rate of 16 per year,which means that if we sign on this year,in two years time only,plus a year for training,setting up the infrastructure,etc.,by 2016,we can theoretically see two sqds. of Rafales in service.Will we have two sqds. of LCAs in service by then?

"Messieurs et madames,faites vos jeux,s'ils vous plait"!
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

leaving aside Rafale's capability, it's maturity can't be tabled based on ops in Afghanistan and Libya, and visualize its capability as matured. Our war zone will be totally different. The data out there on Shornets, F15s are the likes we need to put on the table.. unfortunately, none for Rafale.

We have to go by IAF's call on the maturity rather based on their acceptance of the platform. now, they can't take that into their maturity model, and claim since IAF will use Rafale, hence it is a mature platform. The fact may be true, but only by operational data one can speak there.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by abhik »

^^^
True that. Even while taking on these turd-world countries in the middle of civil wars they had to go running to massa for help with in days. I think they would have crapped their pants if they had to take on even the PAF. And calling it mature is a stretch. It still doesn't have a proper BWR AAM, no anti radiation missiles, no anti tank weapons, no cluster munitions(which is cannot carry anyway even in the future as they have signed the), no large bunker busting weapons in service. Only marketing speak and mythical tales.
Philip wrote:There is even a naval variant on board the CDG. The LCA cannot carry the same amount of munitions,or has the range.As far as nuclear capability is concerned ,the Jaguar was rejected for the toss-bombing role some moons ago because of the very small space left after underbody carriage,which led to the M-2000 being chosen.There is absolutely no problem in the Rafale fitting the bill for the nuclear role,as it would have afar greater capability than the M-2000 of penetrating Paki airspace and delivering the goods.(est. size of our N-munitions-on the M-2000, is that of an underbelly drop tank).
THe Rafale may be better than the LCA in n number of parameters, but that itself not the reason to spend a fortune, take the headache of adding one more type of aircraft and become even more dependent on foreign nation. The question is what is it that we need that the Rafale has to offer that no other aircraft currently in the inventory(MKI, LCA etc) cannot fulfill even without any reasonable modifications or upgrades.
Rafales can be produced at the healthy rate of 16 per year,which means that if we sign on this year,in two years time only,plus a year for training,setting up the infrastructure,etc.,by 2016,we can theoretically see two sqds. of Rafales in service.Will we have two sqds. of LCAs in service by then?
Correct me if I am wrong but as per the deal the French are obligated to supply the the first 18 within 48 months. Hence HAL will start production initially at the rate of only 8 per year. The french may supply the the first 18 before time but HAL will require the full period to set up the plant and get it going. Also given the current economic conditions it is unlikely the deal will go through before FY14-15. i.e we will get at best 34(equal to or less than 2 squadrons) or so Rafales before 2020. Also not 2 years hence we will start inducting FGFAs.
"Messieurs et madames,faites vos jeux,s'ils vous plait"!
The government is broke it hasn't allocated enough money to close the deal in this year . And the fiscal effects of the elections sops(Food Security Bill, Direct cash transfer etc) are yet to be factored in. The Re has also tanked, massively escalating the cost. And at this point of time the Rafale/MRCA fails to justify its very basic premise, its raison d'etre. If the deal still goes through before the elections, my bet is that it will be another of the UPA governments "1 lac Crore+" scams
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

Look guys,the IAF have gone though an exhaustive evaluation of all contestants,shortlisting the EF and Rafale and choosing the Rafale finally.If on goes by the premise that anyway the babu-politico nexus will get their cut,whatever bird is acquired will not matter.The FMS is so heavily loaded in favour of the nation concerned which dictates price,everything.If money is in short supply now,the amount already earmarked and budgeted for the MMRCA should be used for the same purpose but acquisition of a lesser number.Worldwide air forces are doing just that,including the USAF and IsAF.The most cost-effective method would be to order more MIG-29/35s as we already have them in service.I still favour the Rafale though in the context of the Chinese threat.The F-18 andF-16s are yesterday's aircraft with no future in them.We've been through this debate for aeons it in the archives.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

Philip, it is not about the capability.. but about the maturity. The context is different. I agree we have no data to discuss there.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by srin »

Philip wrote:Look guys,the IAF have gone though an exhaustive evaluation of all contestants,shortlisting the EF and Rafale and choosing the Rafale finally.If on goes by the premise that anyway the babu-politico nexus will get their cut,whatever bird is acquired will not matter.The FMS is so heavily loaded in favour of the nation concerned which dictates price,everything.If money is in short supply now,the amount already earmarked and budgeted for the MMRCA should be used for the same purpose but acquisition of a lesser number.Worldwide air forces are doing just that,including the USAF and IsAF.The most cost-effective method would be to order more MIG-29/35s as we already have them in service.I still favour the Rafale though in the context of the Chinese threat.The F-18 andF-16s are yesterday's aircraft with no future in them.We've been through this debate for aeons it in the archives.
Things have changed economically. When we had the money, we sat on the deals and now we don't. It doesn't matter if it was already budgeted - the only criteria right now for projects is if it will win congress the votes.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

* Granted that the IAF has evaluated all these planes, so assumption is that technical aspect is not an issue:
* disclaimer: to me the MMRCA has become a poison pill, so ................

* Rafale: To make it exportable, the French have invested too much into this plane, much more than the French as a nation would have liked to. So, any upgrades, enhancements for an Indian Rafale would cost an arm and a leg+ - the French way. This deal could easily balloon into some $50-60 billion in 20-30 years. India would be too dependent on France and at an exorbitant cost
* MiG-35: At least the Rafale is a mainstay in France, the -35 is an afterthought in Russia. MiG is a log they have kept alive. IF the Russians induct it, expect India to pay for them. And to think India will have to depend on such a plane for decades .......... IMHO, the worst selection from a dependency point of view. (BTW, for what it is worth, a report or two suggested that the IAF had requested that the MiG not be entered in the competition - that reason alone it should not be selected)
* F-16/EuroF/grip: Not a factor. the F-16 should not even have been entered. The other two are not viable/sustainable alternatives. Either too many cooks or a weak cook
* F-18: Under the circumstances, the best out of the worst. In use in native service, growth potential exists - at a lesser relative cost than others, evolving synergies between nation's services, best political environment so far, international dynamics favor India - how much that contributes to the overall equation needs computing. Has a future (for sure) - one that is better than the rest.

?????

* Cancel MMRCA
* Provide AMCA with the requested $2 billion support
* Fund a reliable and meaningful engine to the hilt, partner, whatever, but get it out there
* Perhaps have the AMCA team refocus with reliable technologies at the core and some futuristic components - to reduce risk and bring product to the market more quickly + efficiently
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Victor »

abhik wrote:^^^
they would have crapped their pants if they had to take on even the PAF.
:rotfl: The same PAF that crapped its pants when locked on by MiGs? Nah, don't think so. If they get locked on while still on the ground by a Rafale with a Meteor, they won't even have the b@lls to take off.

But yes, the super-duper "patentable procurement system" is so torturous that it not only wrote off the most practical fighter (IMO the F-18 with the same engines as the LCA is still the best choice) but now also threatens to write off the winner of the competition. Its the same farcical idiocy that blacklisted every weapons manufacturer on earth because some paki sent an anonymous letter to the squeaky clean RM.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by koti »

NRao wrote:* Rafale: To make it exportable, the French have invested too much into this plane, much more than the French as a nation would have liked to. So, any upgrades, enhancements for an Indian Rafale would cost an arm and a leg+ - the French way. This deal could easily balloon into some $50-60 billion in 20-30 years. India would be too dependent on France and at an exorbitant cost* MiG-35: At least the Rafale is a mainstay in France, the -35 is an afterthought in Russia. MiG is a log they have kept alive. IF the Russians induct it, expect India to pay for them. And to think India will have to depend on such a plane for decades .......... IMHO, the worst selection from a dependency point of view. (BTW, for what it is worth, a report or two suggested that the IAF had requested that the MiG not be entered in the competition - that reason alone it should not be selected)
Can't agree saab.
Rafale is the sole manned Aircraft that is going to serve the French Air-force for the foreseeable future. Compared to Gripen, EF, F16 or Mig35 this means guaranteed upgrades irrelevant of IAF. This means we don't have to part sponsor major upgrades.
MIG-35 would not have been a bad deal at all IMO. Though it is not serving any AF, it is a heavily modified 29. It would have been... who knows half the price of a Rafale, with minimal learning curve and amazing customization options and a possible production line shift to India eliminating all the spare part issues and minimizing costs.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by koti »

Victor wrote: But yes, the super-duper "patentable procurement system" is so torturous that it not only wrote off the most practical fighter (IMO the F-18 with the same engines as the LCA is still the best choice) but now also threatens to write off the winner of the competition. Its the same farcical idiocy that blacklisted every weapons manufacturer on earth because some paki sent an anonymous letter to the squeaky clean RM.
It was not the procurement system that wrote off the SH. It was the end user.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by abhik »

Victor wrote:
abhik wrote:^^^
they would have crapped their pants if they had to take on even the PAF.
:rotfl: The same PAF that crapped its pants when locked on by MiGs? Nah, don't think so. If they get locked on while still on the ground by a Rafale with a Meteor, they won't even have the b@lls to take off.

But yes, the super-duper "patentable procurement system" is so torturous that it not only wrote off the most practical fighter (IMO the F-18 with the same engines as the LCA is still the best choice) but now also threatens to write off the winner of the competition. Its the same farcical idiocy that blacklisted every weapons manufacturer on earth because some paki sent an anonymous letter to the squeaky clean RM.
There is a difference between having uber spec weapons and having a well oiled war machine that does the job. France ran out of munitions within a few days of the Lybian conflict(a relatively lower tempo war against a non nuclear armed adversary much weaker than Pakistan and already in civil war) and had to go begging to Massa for help.
With respect to meteor(which by the way is not in service as opposed to PAFs AMRAAM), the short ranged MICAs cost us over 2 million USD a pop. Expect the Meteors to cost at least double that. How many can we afford at this price? Whom are we going to run to when we use up the few we can afford?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

koti wrote:
Rafale is the sole manned Aircraft that is going to serve the French Air-force for the foreseeable future. Compared to Gripen, EF, F16 or Mig35 this means guaranteed upgrades irrelevant of IAF. This means we don't have to part sponsor major upgrades.
MIG-35 would not have been a bad deal at all IMO. Though it is not serving any AF, it is a heavily modified 29. It would have been... who knows half the price of a Rafale, with minimal learning curve and amazing customization options and a possible production line shift to India eliminating all the spare part issues and minimizing costs.
Sorry, perhaps I did not word it right.

There are multiple dimensions to such machines.

First, the Rafale built to the needs of France. This was done as time went along.

Second, Rafale to make it exportable. Bells and whistles + more bells and whistles to compete with the rest out there. But most important bells and whistles that the French do not need or really need.

Third, a Rafale speced out for India.

I suspect you are talking of #1 and if that is true, then I agree. France should and will fund those - that is national security related.

#2 will stop once India gets her in the form of #3. And it really does not matter to India any more.

#3 is what I am talking about. #3 will have the skeleton of #1 perhaps, but should be a different machine, right? #3 should be tuned for Indian specs. The cost associated to tune this machine as threats change over time and associated upgrades - all of which should be different (but the verbiage will be the same) between #3 and #1.

Does it make sense?

Added later:

One more item of interest. The threat perception for France has diluted a lot in the recent past and just do not see it changing dramatically. This leads me to believe that they will not spend any large sums on upgrades for the Rafale.

While in the case of India the threat is not just much greater - as we post - but is liable to be very, very dramatic. The need for such a machine to morph into something rather different as threats change is a topic one must consider. Something that the French do not need to.

The only player that shares such a predicament with India is the US - THE main reason why the SERVICES of the two nations will get closer to each other.
Last edited by NRao on 09 Aug 2013 01:26, edited 1 time in total.
NRao
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

[OT]
On the MiG-35, has anyone seen any movement within Russia itself for this plane? It is my understanding that the dynamics are way different - something to do with the size of that nation I am told. But, even then why have they not inducted it in droves if it were that good? Just curious. (Short answer please. Thx)
[\OT]
Victor
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Victor »

abhik wrote: With respect to meteor(which by the way is not in service as opposed to PAFs AMRAAM), the short ranged MICAs cost us over 2 million USD a pop. Expect the Meteors to cost at least double that. How many can we afford at this price? Whom are we going to run to when we use up the few we can afford?
"Us"? "we"? Weren't you talking about the French vs pakis? How did "we" enter the picture?
About affordability of MICA for IAF, the cost of wiping out the PAF with Mica is nothing. Maybe half a squadron of Rafales.
abhik
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by abhik »

Yes in the imaginary world where having one missile per enemy fighter in the inventory is ok. The ratio is quite different in the real world. Take for example the M2k upgrade deal where we bought 500 MICAs for about 50 fighters. That's a ratio of 10:1. So assuming a cost per missile of say 4 m USD for a Meteor and a 10:1 ratio, we are talking about 5-8 billion USD (for 126-189 fighters).
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