Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

koti · Post by **koti** » 01 Aug 2013 03:35

Brahmos makes an excellent Shore based defense system.

It will bring the capability to effectively target Hainan and Sanya naval assets.
I remember the Dhanush Jugaad. If anything similar can be done to Vietnamese Navy in a SHTF situation, there is a lot Brahmos can deliver.

And given the offense first strategy Vietnam used against previous Chinese military moves, this will be significantly effective in a similar situation.

isubodh · Post by **isubodh** » 01 Aug 2013 12:09

hi !

Brahmos production rate is ~50/per year. Without any missile production idea/background that seems like a very low number. So what are the factor that prevent it being ramped up to say 1/day ? Is explosive difficult to produce or is it the avionics and structure ?

cheers

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2013 13:56

maybe the financial outlay is only that much per year. even if you could produce a entire order in 3 months people might not want that to prevent block expiry of product one fine day.

isubodh · Post by **isubodh** » 01 Aug 2013 14:58

Then the BAPL chiefs statment that we will meet our requirement first then look to supply for exports, doesn't make sense. We can ramp our capacity to do a parallel supply and that way will have better production facility when we need them in event of conflict.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 01 Aug 2013 18:43

Barak-8/MR-SAM/LR-SAM updates.

This weapon system will take our Navy to the "next level" of air defence. However, our corvette class warships will not go beyond CIWS.

The holy grail is theatre air defence ... imagine protecting the whole of Mumbai from a sea based air and ballistic missile defence system.

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Securi ... 375203101/

HAIFA, Israel, July 30 (UPI) -- Israel's navy is installing the Barak-8 air-defense missile system aboard its combat vessels to protect against Syria's new supersonic Russian-built Yakhont anti-ship missiles, which the Jewish state views as a potent threat to its long-held naval supremacy in the eastern Mediterranean.

....

The navy's procurement of the Barak-8 was put off for years because the system's development was not completed until 2010. The missile has an operational range of 45 miles.

...

The Israeli media reports that the Barak-8 is expected to be operational aboard the navy's three Haifa-built Sa'ar-5 missile ships within the next 3-4 months.

...

The Russians began delivering the Yakhonts to Syria in December 2011 under 2007 contract valued at $300 million.

Moscow provided the Syrian regime with two Bastion coastal missile systems, comprising 18 mobile launchers and an estimated 72 of the missiles that have a maximum speed of Mach 2, twice the speed of sound, a range of 187 miles and carry a warhead containing 440 pounds of high explosives.

The deliveries took place amid Syria's civil war, with disparate rebel forces seeking to overthrow President Bashar Assad, a key ally of Russia and Iran.

....

John · Post by **John** » 01 Aug 2013 19:24

koti wrote:Brahmos makes an excellent Shore based defense system.

It will bring the capability to effectively target Hainan and Sanya naval assets.
I remember the Dhanush Jugaad. If anything similar can be done to Vietnamese Navy in a SHTF situation, there is a lot Brahmos can deliver.

And given the offense first strategy Vietnam used against previous Chinese military moves, this will be significantly effective in a similar situation.

Brahmos faces heavy competition from Bastion-P (Yakhont) which has already been supplied to Vietnam and possibly Syria.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 01 Aug 2013 22:11

arun wrote:IDSA Occasional Paper No. 31 : India's Nuclear Triad. A Net Assessment.

Came across the above IDSA paper dating back to April 2013.

Paper indicates that Hydroxyl-Terminated Poly Butadiene (HTPB) is being elbowed aside by Nitrate Ester Plasticized Polyether (NEPE) as the solid propellant of choice for Ballistic Missiles and here India is losing technological ground to P.R. China (Pages 24 to 28).

Excerpt:

Most of the Chinese missiles after being upgraded to newer solid versions are better in terms of quality and technology. It’s believed that majority of them use Nitrate Ester Plasticised Polyether (NEPE) kind of propellant which integrates the advantages of double-base propellants and composite propellant, in other term collectively known as composite modified double based propellants. India on the other side currently using Hydroxyl-Terminated Poly Butadiene (HTPB) which is a composite based propellant used in all versions of Agni missiles..................

So fundamentally it is observed that NEPE propellants perform better at higher temperature and for longer period of time, also these propellant perform better in terms of mechanical properties than HTPB at transition temperature, as they become independent of temperature which is important factor for long range missiles especially ICBM. NEPE has various consistencies in its chemical composition, hence it offers wide window of opportunity to enhance efficiency of propellant.

In respect of specific impulse (it is the change in momentum per unit mass for rocket fuels, i.e. more the Isp better is initial thrust hence need of lesser fuel), due to composite modified double based fuel NEPE have better Isp than composite propellant HTPB. Better Isp also gives better initial thrust during stage separation hence longer range in lesser fuel...................

Also for the sustainer in case of liquid fuel ramjet engine, probably a better density of the Kerosene should be looked at unless they believe just the JP-7 levels would be enough. DRDO had tried pilot injecting gaseous Hydrogen in the Kerosene fuel for its scramjet. Probably a heavier fuel with better hydrogen injections.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 02 Aug 2013 23:39

DRDO tastes rare success in evaluation trials of Nag.

Finally some success has come in the way of Defence Research and Development Organization with "fairly accurate results" during evaluation trials of Nag, a Gen-3 anti-tank guided missile, top DRDO officials said.

Actual trials of Nag will begin by early next year officials said, as the trial results of third-generation "Fire-and-Forget" anti-tank missile was satisfactory and previous anomalies rectified, G Satheesh Reddy, director, Research Centre Imarat (RCI) said.He along with officials of Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) were present at Rajasthan for the trials.

It was almost a year back, when the anti-tank guided missile, Nag was tanked in its user trials by Indian Army in Rajasthan.The DRDO attributed the failure to high temperatures in the desert where tests were being conducted, bringing the target temperature to same level as that of ambient temperature.

DRDO officials while speaking to TOI said these evaluation trials were conducted after integrating the "more sensitive" and "higher resolution" seekers developed by Research Centre Imarat (RCI) of DRDO here with Nag.Seekers sense the target by infrared imaging and tracks and guides the missile to the target and destroys it.

Reddy further said that so far, the new seekers have been performing well in extremely hot temperatures with equal efficiency and accuracy in hitting targets.Highly sensitive detectors have been placed on missile tip for sensing heat or infra-red signals, he said.

DRDO is also working on " Helina", the helicopter or air launch version of Nag in addition to making the future versions of missile lighter.

Once developed as per army specifications, other foreign anti-tank guided missiles currently being used and procured by India and those existing otherwise shall be no match to Nag.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 03 Aug 2013 00:08

^^^
So the actual trials will start only next year?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 03 Aug 2013 01:30

Per earlier report, only the seeker is being tested now. It needs to be incorporated into the missile for a live fire.

Does that need 6 months? I dont know

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 03 Aug 2013 02:22

Summer will come next year only hence the trials will start then.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2013 06:43

winter trials cannot be shelved for just summer trials. it needs to perform in foggy conditions and bitter cold too. no winter trials in 2013 means its some way from incorporation in helina.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Aug 2013 08:27

John,Brahmos can be carried by small missile corvettes even of Tarantula size.The missile could also be used by shore batteries just as the Chinese have developed shore launched anti-ship Silkworm missiles which have been exported to Iran and Pak.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 03 Aug 2013 11:46

Ms. Tessy Thomas said this ambitious project (Agni V) can carry multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles which can deliver multiple warheads at different targets.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 982029.ece

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Aug 2013 11:58

^ I do not think that A5 is already MIRVed.

John · Post by **John** » 03 Aug 2013 19:23

Philip wrote:John,Brahmos can be carried by small missile corvettes even of Tarantula size.The missile could also be used by shore batteries just as the Chinese have developed shore launched anti-ship Silkworm missiles which have been exported to Iran and Pak.

The Russian missile corvette: Tarantula, Nanuchka etc where designed to carry the Malakhit or Styx Ashm missile nearly weight as much as Brahmos so yes no suprise they can be fitted with Brahmos, but why bother fitting 20 year old missile corvette that is Near end of life with a missiles that are more expensive than vessel itself? Even IN is not doing it.

Anyway my point was regarding non soviet bloc nations whose vessels are of western origin and are designed to carry smaller AshM like Harpoon/Exocet cannot be modified to carry Brahmos.

srai · Post by **srai** » 03 Aug 2013 19:46

Sagar G wrote:Summer will come next year only hence the trials will start then.

It would seem that from user-trials to induction takes at least 3 years, and this is primarily due to user acceptance testing needed to be conducted in the extremities of summer and winter conditions. The cycle seems to be something like this:

User Trials (post R&D)

Year 1 - IA tests the missiles/vehicles both in peak winter and summer
Year 2 - DRDO fixes the glitches found during user trials and tests both in peak summer and winter before second round of user trials; this step may take more years depending on the complexity of the fixes required
Year 3 - IA re-tests in both peak summer and winter before approving for induction

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 03 Aug 2013 21:40

I have always wondered if a kind of conformal launch pontoons can be designed for smaller vessels. Or perhaps simply a tow-able pontoon of the kind we have seen recently in the case of K-15.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Aug 2013 22:57

Onyx and Brahmos video Footage .....shows Onyx launched from submarine and surface ship plus Brahmos videos

http://youtu.be/clWZCNaZpeE

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 05 Aug 2013 23:08

Singha wrote:winter trials cannot be shelved for just summer trials. it needs to perform in foggy conditions and bitter cold too. no winter trials in 2013 means its some way from incorporation in helina.

Doesn't cold atmosphere aid in easy detection of target by IIR ??? The problem with Nag seeker was in hot conditions since both the target and the surrounding were having almost equal temperature hence the detector wasn't able to perform well for the maximum specified range which is now being overcome by using high resolution seeker. Of course there will be all weather trials but the problem as according to publicly available info was only in summer. So I guess winter won't be a problem "detection wise".

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Aug 2013 00:24

SSridhar wrote:^ I do not think that A5 is already MIRVed.

The correspondent is mixing two differetn statements in same speech.

The two or three proofings is for single payload system and deplyed by 2015. The same vehicle will be proofed with the MIRV capability.
I like her saying from observations by neighboring countries (PRC) the range is over 7000 km!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Aug 2013 01:09

Would it not be better to deliver say boosted MIRVs (extra little booster segment for the mid course, ie, take up the mid course duty from the main delivery stage) - separation begins as immediately as it reaches near orbital stage, and then independently charter the mid course. Such a capability would be terrorising any nation on the planet.

so, for ABM tracking, tracking 6 or more MIRV is pretty darn difficult.. even if they tackle one, 5 are sure to hit targets. And, it would not be that much fuel required for mid-course journey.. perhaps a modified RV with more fuel for nozzling through the mid-course should be enough.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Aug 2013 01:12

Such concepts are called MARVs. MIRVs are pure ballistic RVs. MARVs have a booster/error correcting motors aka hot gas systems. Some have cold gas thrusters from a freon bottle that do small error corrections. Those are called Almost ballistic RVs.
The Agony RVs are hot gas systems.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Aug 2013 01:24

Excellent, thanks ramana. I think MIRV should be only TD, and our production should shoot for MARVs.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Aug 2013 01:27

They are.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Aug 2013 07:03

Ramana: does it mean that each RV in a MARV carries its own guidance electronics?

If so, the miniaturization of guidance achieved in recent A4 & A5 trials takes on even more significance. Given that the dimensions of A5 wouldn't change much for an MARV, each RV has much less space in which to accommodate the warhead, motor and the electronics.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 07 Aug 2013 17:39

India Successfully Test Fires Pinaka Rockets - New Indian Express

Indigenously developed Pinaka rockets were successfully test-fired from a multi- barrel rocket launcher (MBRL) from a base at Chandipur-on-sea near here today.

"Two rounds of Pinaka rockets were successfully tested from an armament establishment," defence sources said.

Describing the tests as routine trials conducted for training purpose, they said on January 30 and 31, and February 28, this year, ten rounds of Pinaka rockets were tested from the same base.

Pinaka, which has undergone several tough tests since 1995, has already been inducted into the armed forces.

"In July this year, more advanced, second generation the Pinaka Mark II Multi-Barrel Rocket Launcher System had undergone successful firing trials at Chandhan area in Pokhran field firing ranges in western Rajastan and is in development stage," a defence official said.

"The development and trials of the advanced system will continue and the rocket is expected to be pressed into service very soon," he added.

Today's tests were conducted by personnel from Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), Pune unit at Proof and Experimental Establishment (PXE) firing point-2 at Chandipur, the sources said.

"The MBRL, capable of acting as a force-multiplier, has been developed to supplement artillery guns," the official said.

Pinaka is an area weapon system with a range of 40 km.

The quick reaction time and high rate of fire of the system gives an edge to the Army during a low-intensity conflict situation, he said.

The unguided rocket system is meant to neutralise large areas with rapid salvos. Pinaka system can fire a salvo of 12 rockets in 44 seconds, the sources said, adding the battery of six launchers can neutralise at a time a target area of 3.9 sq km.

The system's capability to incorporate several types of warheads makes it deadly for the enemy as it can even destroy solid structures and bunkers.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Aug 2013 17:52

only if the maals can be V&Ved for the ~200-250kt target field effect.. i hope our super computing division has all the simulations going or done by now, and a scaled down sub-criticals are tested out somewhere deep somewhere, with absolutely no trace. 80%efficiency should be more than enough for the deterrance.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 07 Aug 2013 21:46

No report has said what's new with Pinaka Mark 2. Some here are guessing more range. Others are guessing more accuracy. Nothing official has been mentioned.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Aug 2013 23:13

Prem From a number of articles in google I think the MarkII has extra range and is ~ a foot longer than the previous version. No other changes.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 11 Aug 2013 21:35

K4 test coming up next month

Amid escalation of simmering tension along the LoC in the wake of unprovoked killing of jawans leading to heightened resentment across the nation, India is contemplating to go for the maiden trial of its long range nuke-capable undersea missile K-4, which had been kept secret so far.

If things go as per the programme, defence sources said the indigenously built submarine launched ballistic (SLBM) missile, which has a strike range of 3000-km to 3,500-km will be test fired from a submerged pontoon, which is almost identical to submarine, off the Vishakhapatnam coast next month.

Though the missile has been designed to be launched from a depth of 50 meter, but this time the scientists are planning to fire it from the undersea platform nearly 20 to 30 meters deep in the Bay of Bengal. Earlier the developmental tests of the missile's gas-booster have already completed successfully.

After the successful activation of the atomic reactor on-board the country’s first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant in the wee hours on Saturday, the DRDO is in fact readying to conduct the first experimental trial of the much-awaited K-4 as soon as possible. This submarine will be equipped with the K-series missiles.

India has so far planned three missiles in the K-series. The 700-km range K-15, renamed as B-05 by the DRDO has been launched 10 times while the K-5 which will have a striking capability of over 5,000 km is under development. All the K-series missiles are faster, lighter and stealthier. The missiles are far more difficult to tackle as they skulk clandestinely undersea and manoeuvrable thus minimising the chance of being shot down by the enemy.

The DRDO is expecting a successful trial of the missile as it would strengthen the country’s position in the very exclusive club of six nations including Russia, USA, France, Britain and China which have the capability of firing nuclear tipped missiles from air, land and undersea.

With a length of 12 meters and diameter of 1.3 meters, the missile weighs around 17 tonne and is capable of carrying a warhead of around 2 tonne. Basically a ballistic missile as it uses solid propellant, the K-4 missile combines the aspects of both cruise and ballistic missile, which use multiple-stage rockets to exit the atmosphere and re-enter in a parabolic trajectory. It flies in hypersonic speed and is the world's best weapon in this class.

“At least four tests of B-05 and K-4 missiles have been planned. While the B-05 will be fired from the submarine, K-4 will be launched from the pontoon,” the sources added.

Apart from the K-series missiles, India has the submarine version of BrahMos supersonic cruise missile in its arsenal to boost its second-strike capabilities. However, after the completion of successful trials from INS Arihant, the B-05 missile will be inducted in the armed forces. The DRDO is also developing the air version of the K-series missiles, which can be fitted with fighter aircraft like Sukhoi Su-30-MKI.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 11 Aug 2013 22:22

So is it a long range Shaurya ?
Is there any source which explains a little of all these missiles ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Aug 2013 07:20

if these dimensions are weights are true, the current K4 proto could probably only do around 3000km.
its thinner than even the old M4 SLCBM of france. I am not comparing to any cheen missile as details are hazy and shrouded in psyops. K4 would be less than half the weight of the M4. and it would be a gross waste of the silo diameter on the arihant.

let us hope a full-caliber K4.02 is coming soon....37 tons and 2.2m dia inshallah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_(missile)
Weight 36,000 kg
Length 11,50 m
Diameter 1,93 m
Warhead 6 MIRV using the 150 kt of TNT (630 TJ) TN-71, with penetration aids
Engine three stage solid propellant
Operational range 5,000 km

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 12 Aug 2013 09:50

India test fires Prithvi-II Missile

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 12 Aug 2013 10:37

If info in article is accurate, K4 should have a range longer than 3000-3500 km with a light warhead. The 2 ton warhead capability is quite unique as well since I don't think any other missiles in our inventory can carry such a hefty payload. Range of the K4 should be therefore be well over 5000km with a light payload 250-500kg.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Aug 2013 10:45

which however means no future mirv capability - a must have given our small number of SLBMs eventually. 3xmirv and some penetration decoys might call for a 1-t payload for sure and light 250kg warheads. not a ideal situation given our tested FBF weapon is said to be around 600-700kg range.

we need to test again and finalize on a family of 200-400kg range warheads. this is the core issue which departed missile guru and many others have spoken of. there is no getting out of the trap without testing again. its cheaper to test and face the minimal consequences than upsize our SSBN fleet to Delta-IV size and that huge hump needed to cart around old-school ICBMs with huge mass and throw weight...more like a submerged pontoon than a nimble sub.

srin · Post by **srin** » 12 Aug 2013 11:05

K-4 also follows a depressed trajectory and isn't a pure ballistic missile. That would decrease its range comparatively.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Aug 2013 12:01

its a long way to beijing from the middle of IOR. around 5000km for sure.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 12 Aug 2013 12:07

vasu raya wrote:K4 test coming up next month

There was some news that it was tested once in c. 2010.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 12 Aug 2013 12:22

Singha wrote:its a long way to beijing from the middle of IOR. around 5000km for sure.

5000 km should be enough if you are willing to fire at bejing from any point in the Bay of Bengal. From somewhere off the coast of Orrisa to shanghai will also work out to around 3500 km.

Diego Garcia works to around 7400 km.

Lesser ranges will force IN to deploy in the Pacific.