Re: Indian Naval Discussion

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 17 Aug 2013 21:25

On sabotage, we are doing old school thinking, what is to say that the sub's control systems are not compromised? remember Iran's centrifuge failures? the torpedoes or missiles could have been armed and the alarm systems suppressed. Previously Naval staff returning from port visits to China got pen drives with viruses on them as gifts, just giving an example. With Arihant the control system is local made if not the electronics.

member_27444 · Post by **member_27444** » 17 Aug 2013 21:51

Requiring / Aquiring oreign help to salvage a sub sunk in its pen
Tells how much strategic thinking goes into our Defense preparedness
and the state of engineering and in country and research capabilities
This is a wake up call for so many things that's. topic for different ...

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 17 Aug 2013 21:54

Seriously... we need foreign help to raise a Sub from its Pen... ? and we end up launching Moon probes ---we truly are a country of contradiction...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Aug 2013 21:56

well see - we always go for the platforms rather than the infra due to limited budget.

we dont have any khanish infra bases in any services thats a fact.

maybe even with limited budgets we need to spend more towards infra than platforms ....

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Aug 2013 21:58

Infrastructure means different things to different people and agencies.

It does sound very surprising that the IN is not capable of raising a sub at her berth.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Aug 2013 23:18

see, this is where we have to realize how far we can push the meagre reactionary budgets.. time to correct our fundamental requirements and match it up with some standards. that is the way to step up from being in the reactionary crisis management.

safety and emergency response infrastructure is always invaluable and will only be driven to analysis on emergencies. one can't think about meagre budgets anymore. we need throw out our old brains out.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 17 Aug 2013 23:21

Raising a sunken vessel is a highly specialized skill set. The russians hired the norwegians for the Kursk.

If the hull still has integrity they can patch any breaches and pump it out. If not they will have to string cables under the hull and through the mud and lift it from dockside cranes while pumping it out. Then it can be floated or carried to dry dock. Its a lot of work and the cranes and giant barges must be sent from around the world. Like I said, it's a specialized business.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Aug 2013 23:25

Sure, if the boat is at a very great depth. How about 30 feet? In your own harbor? Just asking, I have no clue.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 18 Aug 2013 00:27

If it is in the dock/pen can the area around the sunk sub be walled and water pumped out? Most oil rig companies do that prior to drilling in deep sea

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Aug 2013 00:57

^not a bad option. but, getting or assembling a super crane is an oppty. here. we can get that going.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 18 Aug 2013 01:15

We should be able to do it... hiring foreign hands to raise a Sub handful meters from gateway of India is the biggest insult to the souls who are still trapped inside... and we spend billions on VVIP copters...... sorry for being emotional... couple of extra pegs may be..

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Aug 2013 01:29

I vote for it.. spend for it, collect money, and ignore the vvip useless politicians who are making us slaves of their kingdom. I am ashamed these oldies at sansad bhavan can't think like us normal human beings.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 18 Aug 2013 02:36

darshhan wrote:Pernicious agents could be crafted to do their damage months or even years after exposure, depending on the goals of the designer. Several viruses are already known to spark cancers. New ones could eventually be designed to infect the brain with, for instance, synthetic schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or Alzheimer’s. Stranger possibilities exist as well. A disease engineered to amplify the production of cortisol and dopamine could induce extreme paranoia, turning, say, a peace-seeking dove into a warmongering hawk. Or a virus that boosts the production of oxytocin, the chemical likely responsible for feelings of trust, could play hell with a leader’s negotiating abilities. Some of these ideas aren’t new. As far back as 1994, the U.S. Air Force’s Wright Laboratory theorized about chemical-based pheromone bombs.

Considering that most UN offices are in US, its a wonder why the US still needs to roughshod the UN Head on certain issues. This is also very relevant in the context of our dovey leaders. And in the highly charged 26/11 hostage situation these unseen pheromone bombs probably can make a difference.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 18 Aug 2013 03:31

INS Sindhurakshak tragedy: 6th body found, international firms help in rescue operation

While the five-member board of inquiry under senior submariner Commodore Deepak Bhist has started investigations, sketchy details of the accident have emerged from the three survivors of INS Sindhurakshak. The submarine was scheduled to leave for a patrol on August 14 and the 18 sailors, including the three survivors, were pre-occupied with last-minute checks. Sources said all the six compartments, besides the front and rear escape hatches, were open to facilitate loading of food and other materials inside the submarine.

The survivors are learnt to have told senior Navy officers that loading of ordnance was almost over. The three were standing on the submarine and jetty when they heard the first torpedo explode. "They turned around to investigate the source of the blast when the second torpedo exploded. One of them got thrown into the water while the other two jumped into the sea," said a source.

The trio escaped with burns and was discharged after treatment. A Navy spokesperson said all the three survivors have since rejoined duty at the Naval dockyard.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Aug 2013 06:10

Slowly what the near field observers saw is being released. So the trio saw atleast two torpedoes explode.
There was a report.of a Klub being ejected. We need to collect all such observations to determine the signature of the trigger event.

Do those torpedoes have any gas bottles that can ignite?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Aug 2013 06:15

Darshan lets stick to plausible scenarios and move the far fetched ones toOT thread.thnks

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Aug 2013 06:28

These three should provide very good info. Along with the what remains of the sub they should be able to get the best picture compared to other similar sub tragedies.

vina · Post by **vina** » 18 Aug 2013 06:47

darshhan wrote: Except Russia no one should be allowed to help. These western countries are only interested in intelligence collection. They do not have any humanitarian motive whatsoever.

I am including Russia just because they already know everything about this submarine.

On the contrary everyone EXCEPT Russia should be involved int the accident investigation. The Russians have gone into a CYA mode and have already declared no 'equipment failure' and 'mishandling error' whatever that means and have a vested interest in steering the investigation that way.

How many here will know that the recent GSLV failure is the result of a design fault of the Russian stage and not any Indian system? The Russians basically have used us as a guinea pig in perfecting the GSLV stage. , which under performed in the first missions, and have got it flight proven on our backs which included taking loss of vehicle.

vina · Post by **vina** » 18 Aug 2013 06:51

ramana wrote:Slowly what the near field observers saw is being released. So the trio saw atleast two torpedoes explode.
There was a report.of a Klub being ejected. We need to collect all such observations to determine the signature of the trigger event.

Do those torpedoes have any gas bottles that can ignite?

This has all the signs of a Kursk II. Time to get rid of WWII style Russian thermal torpedoes with oxygen / hydrogen peroxide oxidants and go for mono propellant ones .Get the Varunasta into service ASAP and accelerate the Shakti to get it into service.

vina · Post by **vina** » 18 Aug 2013 07:00

Google for type 93 long lance torpedoes of the IJN and see the dangers and maintenance required to operate oxygen torpedoes and how even an oil spot in the pipes leads to an explosion.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Aug 2013 07:07

the hastiness of Russian statements that it was not their systems makes one wonder

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2013 07:53

another sore point with me is ever since NDA days there has been talk of buying a few DSRV , but nothing has happened till date. is it funding, or is that item under international moratorium on sales?
nobody wants to talk about it.
if a sub goes down we are at mercy of our so-called 'agreement' with the US to provide a DSRV within X hours. It suits the US to tie up people in this way rather than teach them how to fish...same way it readily provides prowler/growler support to all NATO faithful but will not sell that platform!

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 18 Aug 2013 08:21

vina wrote: On the contrary everyone EXCEPT Russia should be involved int the accident investigation. The Russians have gone into a CYA mode and have already declared no 'equipment failure' and 'mishandling error' whatever that means and have a vested interest in steering the investigation that way.

How many here will know that the recent GSLV failure is the result of a design fault of the Russian stage and not any Indian system? The Russians basically have used us as a guinea pig in perfecting the GSLV stage. , which under performed in the first missions, and have got it flight proven on our backs which included taking loss of vehicle.

Then do not call anyone. Especially US and UK.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Aug 2013 08:44

They are asking firms to bid. Two already are there on site.

The sub needs to be raised. That is all there is to it.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Aug 2013 08:46

Surya wrote:the hastiness of Russian statements that it was not their systems makes one wonder

FWIW,

I am not taking a position one way or the other until the jury comes in.

There are unsavory and very subtle whispers that are doing the rounds pointing fingers at the russians. The russians have reacted forcefully to protect their defense export industry. They have already been at the receiving end ( and very unfairly) for the needless and (Indian) mishandled koodankulam nuclear power plant fiasco which has a very direct, traceable and maliciously mischievous "western" input.

First look inwards for the reasons and if the root cause analysis points elsewhere then by all means take a call based on informed reasoning. It is always wise and also traditional to involve the OEMs in any investigation of this nature.

vic · Post by **vic** » 18 Aug 2013 10:24

What are other instances in the world where a conventional diesel electric submarine has exploded and sank in its own berth?

habal · Post by **habal** » 18 Aug 2013 10:26

has Russian code for arming/disarming munition been compromised by some stuxnet-type chip-level virus ? If so, then they have much reason to hide this inconvenient fact.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2013 10:27

^ I know of no other instance. ofcourse we never know with Cheen and their mings and romeos.

DCN is now going to insist on a purpose built scorpene facility with "french std" tools, handling and eqpt else void their warranties.

I have never seen a pic of modern subs tied side by side .. closest I have seen is akulas or oscars separated by a jetty of sorts
http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... akula2.jpg
http://barentsobserver.com/sites/barent ... bos.ne.jpg

and even then weapons loading is probably done in a isolation facility. we are lucky not to lose a couple of Delhi class ships given the way they are parked in close proximity per google earth.

imo its safer for now to move weapons loading facility to trombay side until karwar is 100% up.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 18 Aug 2013 10:48

Singha wrote:...if a sub goes down we are at mercy of our so-called 'agreement' with the US to provide a DSRV within X hours. ...

GD; while DSRVs are required - no doubts - it is not that we are at helpless and have no option but to depend on the US;

1. The German subs and Akula have in built escape chamber.

2. INS Nireekshak is our submarine rescue boat and has diving bells that can be lowered down to a submarine:

An older model of the diving bell can be seen here ... in orange:

INS Matanga also can function as a rescue vessel.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Aug 2013 10:51

Singha wrote:^ I know of no other instance. ofcourse we never know with Cheen and their mings and romeos.

DCN is now going to insist on a purpose built scorpene facility with "french std" tools, handling and eqpt else void their warranties.

I have never seen a pic of modern subs tied side by side .. closest I have seen is akulas or oscars separated by a jetty of sorts
http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... akula2.jpg
http://barentsobserver.com/sites/barent ... bos.ne.jpg

and even then weapons loading is probably done in a isolation facility. we are lucky not to lose a couple of Delhi class ships given the way they are parked in close proximity per google earth.

imo its safer for now to move weapons loading facility to trombay side until karwar is 100% up.

There are always torpedoes on board submarines. They are generally unarmed. Arming takes place based on requirement and the notice and purpose for sailing that has been given.

Under any circumstance, oxygen and oil are always a deadly combination.

habal · Post by **habal** » 18 Aug 2013 10:54

>>I have never seen a pic of modern subs tied side by side ..

have seen pics of paki agostas side by side in the open dock.

here
& here

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Aug 2013 10:55

vic wrote:What are other instances in the world where a conventional diesel electric submarine has exploded and sank in its own berth?

Go figure.

We have also had two warships involved in peace time sinkings. Top management has not exactly covered itself in glory.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 18 Aug 2013 11:06

vic wrote:What are other instances in the world where a conventional diesel electric submarine has exploded and sank in its own berth?

Oh , Indian Navy has achieved a distinction of sorts. The first and only Navy to lose Sub while Berthed in Home port..

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Aug 2013 12:05

jonesy is right, naval salvage is a very specialised business - only a handful of firms in norway and holland are specliased in it, and are the ones most often used - by anyone

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Aug 2013 14:10

Subs and warships berthed next to each other is std. practice worldwide.The amount of safety stds. built into weaponry and fire fighting eqpt. ,plus training,has ensured that the accident that happened at Bombay is most unusual and unique.Ships and subs having accidents at sea is another matter.The veteran naval officers have also mentioned how there are so many layers of safety in modern torpedoes and missiles which makes it highly impossible for an accident to happen if normal/std. procedures are followed.If one recollects.among the first reports was one which said that a missile/torpedo "hit the wall".For the sake of argument,if such a thing did happen to ordnance being loaded,and it was loaded after the incident,it conceivably be the case that some damage was suffered which cause the weapon in Q to have detonated/ignited,setting off sympathetic detonation of the other already loaded weaponry.

No matter what escape chambers may have existed on any sub,the intensity of the instant explosion and intense conflagration which happened so swiftly,in just seconds,would've made it impossible for any of the crew to open,enter and close the hatches of the escape chamber.These detachable escape modules/chambers are usually meant for subs in distress/damage, which cannot resurface for some reason.As we've been told,the entire hull of the sub has deformed and within,the insides have al fused together because of the heat.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2013 15:05

TSP seems to be using some AC system to blow in cold air in one end and suck out air from the other end.
understandable given the baking temps and main engine shutdown.

vic · Post by **vic** » 18 Aug 2013 17:04

It is interesting to note that there is never any criticism of foreign equipment in media like Crash of Mi-17 while Dhruv pulled off spectacular work in Uttarakhand. Now Indian navy becomes the first to loose a submarine in its berth. Navy also lost 2 IL-38s in air show and two ships in peacetime.

I have gone to Goa a couple of times and the way almost half the air assets of Navy are parked close together, in open and in line, is asking for trouble. A terrorist strike and half of the Naval Air assets would be goner in one hr.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Aug 2013 18:31

vina wrote:
darshhan wrote: Except Russia no one should be allowed to help. These western countries are only interested in intelligence collection. They do not have any humanitarian motive whatsoever.

I am including Russia just because they already know everything about this submarine.
On the contrary everyone EXCEPT Russia should be involved int the accident investigation. The Russians have gone into a CYA mode and have already declared no 'equipment failure' and 'mishandling error' whatever that means and have a vested interest in steering the investigation that way.

How many here will know that the recent GSLV failure is the result of a design fault of the Russian stage and not any Indian system? The Russians basically have used us as a guinea pig in perfecting the GSLV stage. , which under performed in the first missions, and have got it flight proven on our backs which included taking loss of vehicle.

I agree.

For one Russia has no real means of raising a sub it seems, they themselves had to wait till a foreign agency had to help them with the Kursk (which actually surprises me).

On humanitarian grounds - again Kursk, the Russians seemed to have waited too long to ask for assistance until was too late for their own sailors.

The only thing the Russians can do - under the circumstances - is to build a few more Kilos for India - to get those numbers up (thanks to Indian politicians).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2013 19:10

USS cole had to be carried in a special ship MV blue marlin back to ingalls shipyard because USN does not have such ships on inventory
http://www.hazegray.org/news/cole_ret01.jpg

it is owned by norway company & then a dutch co and usually meant for carrying oil rigs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Blue_Marlin

very strong ships these looking at the kind of load...
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/ ... 64x722.jpg

some of Kilos have also been sent to Russia in this way...or sent back that way.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/imag ... 8_CqrKmd6F

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 18 Aug 2013 19:18

NRao wrote: The only thing the Russians can do - under the circumstances - is to build a few more Kilos for India - to get those numbers up (thanks to Indian politicians).

Much advancement has happened in design / tech etc. since kilos were designed. No french sub or western sub can be expected to blow-up and sink while loading missiles and torpedos.

As for expensive price of scorpene, what about losing the whole of this 'super strong & super cheap kilo class? And even bigger loss 'the sailors'!

Better pay extra to have something which atleast reaches to the warzone & not blow up while loading the weaponary in the harbour itself.