Artillery Discussion Thread

[vivek_ahuja]

Do the other users heli lift the M777? And if so how do they manage the logistics? (Granted the terrain could be very different.)

As always on military issues, the amrikhans take the lead on aggressive use of the M777s.

There are enough pics online to show the TFTA Chinook slinging the M777 under combat conditions. Such images and videos have given a lot of BRF folks a hard-on on this thread.

But reality suggests that such operations are restricted to altitudes lower than what we have to deal with in the Himalayas. Not to mention we don't have the kind of numbers of Chinooks like the amrikhans do. Not to mention the expensive nature of such operations to machines and airframes that the Amrikhans are okay with, but we can't be.

[member_26622]

Not to mention we don't have the kind of numbers of Chinooks like the amrikhans do. Not to mention the expensive nature of such operations to machines and airframes that the Amrikhans are okay with, but we can't be.

Just confirms that the establishment (Babudom, Army, ...or whatever drives this insane decisions) is looking to fight a one week war at most....Enough time to ditch Desh and catch a flight out or Spending too much time in Switzerland, salivating at their account balance has mentally impacted them to the point that they think India is the size of Switzerland.

Punts apart...A famous russian saying from WW II is that quantity gives a qualitative edge. Hitler's fancy tiger tanks and all just could not keep knocking out fast enough the Russian T series farm machines.

Nothing against the M 777 acquisition, but it's like having sharp teeth without having a strong jaw to bite. The old fashioned Bofors, Tata and Kalyani guns will be the muscle, which are needed aplenty.

[Eric Leiderman]

The M777 does it use a GPS input??

[Victor]

You can’t just place the gun anywhere you want,

It CAN be placed anywhere you want, at very short notice. That's the main USP of a M777.

you need reasonably level ground. Which means valleys and plateaus, where the roads ought to exist.

It only needs a 50' x 50' clearing at most, dime a dozen in the mountains.

After all the infantry and supplies etc too have to move. Unless of course we convert all our mountain infantry into airborne troops.

Not "all the infantry", just the strike corps. And yes, they will in all liklihood be moved by C-130, Chinook, Mi-17s and accompanied by Apaches and Rudra.

And what happens when it is targeted by counter battery fire by paki and cheni guns?

What paki and cheni guns? They will be nowhere in range. Hope things are clearing up a little for you.

How did you come to that conclusion (traversing electrically)? Its 100% marine muscle power onlee

Nope. The TAD system also includes a laser ignition system, electric drives for the howitzer's traverse and elevation and a powered projectile rammer.

[Victor]

given the much smaller numbers of these birds being acquired, not counting attrition, other demands etc, large scale deployments of these guns is not practically possible.

Correct. Who's talking about lagre scale deployments? These guns are too expensive for anything other than high-value offensive missions carried out by the mountain strike corps in limited areas. Note that these guns are earmarked ONLY for the 2 new mountain strike corps.

But reality suggests that such operations are restricted to altitudes lower than what we have to deal with in the Himalayas.

What altitudes do you think we are restricted to by this reality and why? And what altitudes do you think we have to deal with in the Himalayas?

The Bofors was pounding Tiger Hill at 17,000 feet from 10,000 feet below in Kargil. If needed, it could have been located at 1,000 ft and still be able to pound bunkers at 20,000 feet while staying out of range. That was the main value of the Bofors.

Where the M777 radically ups the game from the Bofors-like howitzers is the fact that it can be quickly carried anywhere that a heavy lift helicopter can take it regardless of the terrain or infrastructure. It can choose a better field of fire to cover more targets for example, without worrying about a truck being able to drag it there. And it can move faster than any truck-drawn gun. Even a single gun can cause havoc with this capability in the mountains where troop movement on the ground is restricted to valleys, roads and bridges.

Such images and videos have given a lot of BRF folks a hard-on on this thread.

If you are equating vivid imaginations with hard-ons, welcome to the club, champ.

[Manish_Sharma]

A small video of M777 firing in Afg:



Long time back they shown program on discovery etc. that how they brought down the weight by using Titanium extensively. Such a light gun.

I think we BRFites should be happy that army is getting at least some guns, expensive or not.

[tushar_m]

well chinook does have its own advantages

[abhik]

After all the infantry and supplies etc too have to move. Unless of course we convert all our mountain infantry into airborne troops.

Not "all the infantry", just the strike corps. And yes, they will in all liklihood be moved by C-130, Chinook, Mi-17s and accompanied by Apaches and Rudra.

So the MSC consisting of 30-40,000 troops are going to be air transported too huh?

And what happens when it is targeted by counter battery fire by paki and cheni guns?

What paki and cheni guns? They will be nowhere in range. Hope things are clearing up a little for you.

Obviously they are going to run away from the battlefield with their tails tucked between their legs now that the badass M777 is in town.

How did you come to that conclusion (traversing electrically)? Its 100% marine muscle power onlee

Nope. The TAD system also includes a laser ignition system, electric drives for the howitzer's traverse and elevation and a powered projectile rammer.

Is this TAD actually in service? There are hundreds of M777 firing videos on the youtube, none which I have seen shows any automated traverse, elevation and projectile ramming. Heres one example:-

[vic]

The weight of M777 is around 4.2 tons and OFB 155/39 non-automated towed artillery (if procured) will weight around/less than 7 tons (Compare with M198 of USA which has been around since 1970). The 7 tons howitzer can be knocked down and transported. A artillery unit requires a lot of ammo (and other equipment) to be effective and it is not only the howitzer. Just 200 shells-fuzes-propellants would weight around 10 tons. M777 has to be accompanied with troops, ammo, camouflage, command& control equipment, permeter security team, Air defense equipment, emplacement (digging equipment), perhaps counter battery radars, observation equipment, fuel etc. Therefore each Howitzer will require anything upto 20-100 tons of supporting ammo, personnel and equipment. Therefore there is no reason, why we cannot use 7 tons Howitzer which costs 1/10th the imported maal. Assuming M777 detachment weights 4+20 tons=24 tons then OFB Howitzer detachment will weight around 7+20 tons=27 tons i.e. a difference of around 10% or so. No point buying sanction prone super costly product.

But the problem is that the Army only wants imported and only imported like:-

Rifles
Carbines
LMGs
HMGs
120mm Mortars
Tanks T-90s
Light Tanks or more imported T-90s
AD Guns


So the love of M777 and putting down of any indigenous variant is nothing new and the import loving jingos are in sync with the army brass.

[vic]

Hey Thanks for this pics

eventually I was coming to this. I want a desi alternative of all the import requirements, its not that we are duds and can only survive if a divyastra like M777 is presented to us by LORDs.

Such a mini Pinaka mounted on a Mahindra Dhum-V (Hope I have spelled it correctly) will be fantastic to have, its presence will dampen the moral of *deleted* as it will have power to neutralize a big camp, may be if a gun movement will take 2 days by road we need not just wait air lift some of these to forward post and BANG BANG

+1, but it would be an indigenous idea and does not help in increasing balance in Swiss a/cs. Even the present Pinaka is being slowly killed by increasing requirement to 55-65m range and refusal to order new regiments of Pinaka with 38-42km range/

[Philip]

NIk is quite right.I've posted that quote before,it holds good.How many M-777s are we buying? Can they be spread thin all along the mountainous border? And by the way,how many heavy-lift helos do we have right now? Barely half-a-dozen serviceable MI-26s from some reports.Add another 12-18 Chinooks,even that number is too little given the entire length and breadth of the border with China and Pak in the mountains.We need a family of artillery,rocket launchers and mortars fro our troops,which the terrain dictates and demands,which can be easily airlifted and supported by the logistic chain. It has nothing to do with the PLA's doctrine,but hey,just take a good look at what they have already fielded in Tibet and what we will be up against. Underestimating your enemy is the first step towards defeat.That is the Paki way,"one Paki is better than 10 infidels"!

[Kakarat]

Ok the 82 mm warhead is the one that was 3 kg. 107 mm could be anything like 6.39 kg to 8.5 kg. So kakarat ji deserves an apology. My apologies.

And I am certainly impressed by a 19 kg rocket carrying an 8.5 kg warhead 10 km away but the accuracy and elevation with the present equipment is nothing to talk about. The propellant charge is fixed. On all counts a simple 105 mm LGF scores better.

The problem as I see it involves a bit of a mathematics (and that means I have no solution). Mountains typically will offer rocky outcrops. A 44-46 kg shell or a 17 kg will not matter if the target is movable and/or hidden behind one such rocky outcrop.
...

I posted those pictures just to tell Mr. Raghuraj that a single / double tube Pinaka system will be useless and a logistical nightmare. If needed we should develop a system like the one in the picture (It’s already there across the border) and I am not saying that we should buy the system that’s in the photo.

We can develop a system around the 105mm shell to be mounted in a 4X4 platform (if possible on the ‘Light Specialist Vehicle’ platform). A MBRL cannot replace a gun system but can complement it. A MBRL has the advantage of simultaneous attack with multiple rockets and can be effective against the human wave attack of PLA

[vic]

Russia, Israel and USA have fielded lighter MRBLs. Russia and USA have fielded MRBLs with lesser launch tubes on the platform to bring down the weight.

[manjgu]

!phillip.. the guns will not be spread thinly all along the border but on sensitve points/axis/whatever u wanna call .. the possible areas of attack !

[member_20317]

NIk is quite right.I've posted that quote before,it holds good.How many M-777s are we buying? Can they be spread thin all along the mountainous border?

The dream a jingo dreams. A faux pas is not a wardrobe malfunction.

May you have your wish and much more. May there be as many guns as a commander can require with all the peripherals to execute the job all through the border and more to spare.

And by the way,how many heavy-lift helos do we have right now? Barely half-a-dozen serviceable MI-26s from some reports.Add another 12-18 Chinooks,even that number is too little given the entire length and breadth of the border with China and Pak in the mountains.We need a family of artillery,rocket launchers and mortars fro our troops,which the terrain dictates and demands,which can be easily airlifted and supported by the logistic chain. It has nothing to do with the PLA's doctrine,but hey,just take a good look at what they have already fielded in Tibet and what we will be up against. Underestimating your enemy is the first step towards defeat.That is the Paki way,"one Paki is better than 10 infidels"!

But Philip ji not all the M-777 will be moved all the time. Even if we have 12-15 heavy lifters available full time making multiple sorties the situation can be saved fast. I mean I see M-777+heavylift helo combination, as the Machine Gun Kelly of Indian Army.

Though I would wish to see a mixed force of LGF+45 cal+NEW m-46+120mm Mortars, also deployed in numbers across the himalayas.

People were almost speaking as if 105 is gone for good. The shell production is however still going on. So I guess we will have it around for some time. Probably 10-15 more years. Paneer Tikka cannot replace Aalu-Bhaat but can occupy some space on the table.

[Victor]

MRBL:Howitzer::Shotgun:Rifle

Both have their place and are not interchangeable.

[vic]

Pinaka already has a range accuracy of 1% for unguided rockets therefore analogy of shotgun vs rifle is not correct.

[Victor]

M777 has to be accompanied with troops, ammo, camouflage, command& control equipment, permeter security team, Air defense equipment, emplacement (digging equipment), perhaps counter battery radars, observation equipment, fuel etc. Therefore each Howitzer will require anything upto 20-100 tons of supporting ammo, personnel and equipment.

You forgot tandoors and idli machines, not to mention the kitchen sinks to keep them clean. Army marches on its stomach and all that.

Therefore there is no reason, why we cannot use 7 tons Howitzer which costs 1/10th the imported maal.

Which 7 ton howitzer? The one OFB is just now pulling the drawings out of its ass for after sitting on it for 30 years? And you already know how much this imaginary gun will cost?

Pinaka already has a range accuracy of 1% for unguided rockets therefore analogy of shotgun vs rifle is not correct.

With the Israeli TCS being tested, Pinaka may get a CEP of 700-1400 feet at 15 miles. With smart shells like Excalibur, M777 has a CEP of 15 feet. shotgun vs rifle is a very valid analogy.

[member_26622]

NIk is quite right.I've posted that quote before,it holds good.How many M-777s are we buying? Can they be spread thin all along the mountainous border?

The dream a jingo dreams. A faux pas is not a wardrobe malfunction.

May you have your wish and much more. May there be as many guns as a commander can require with all the peripherals to execute the job all through the border and more to spare.

Let the numbers do the talking here (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... y-kinetics)

145 M777 for 650 million = 4.5 million USD a piece = 28 crores (in one year 35 crores is my bet)
Desi Bofors = 11 crore for 114 pieces ( 114 units is not enough to set up a mnfr line and bring down costs)

Real cost of M777+Chinooks+Imported ammunition+FOREX drain= Likely 2x to 3x purchase price=60~100 crores

Desi Bofors + Desi Tata truck + Desi Ammunition = 20 crore max (inclusive election fund contribution and Swiss shopping trips)
Employment to how many Indians = No one in Delhi cares about this stuff. Just give the poor free food and make them dependents (poor) forever. This sounds like good old Raj days.

Summary: Buying 145 M777 is equivalent to fielding 500~1000 Desi Bofors.

Indo Pak border = 3000 Kms; total needed to cover and shit scare Pakis = 1000 Bofors.

Guys, I am absolutely NOT against the M777 acquisition, Just need to see an order for 1000 NOT 114 Desi guns from OFB\Tata\Kalyani......

A smart person will see that importing equipment raises the ticket price and commission. Only when we get bankrupt and have to sell ourselves (open economy for IKEA, Walmart..) will this ever stop. Who cares about this anyways....Makes sense why everyone wants a Swiss $ account in India.

[NRao]

Nik,

I have not been following the discussion, but I thought the M777 was for very, very specific use. Where other items will not quite do. So, why compare prices, etc?

There is no proposal to place the M777 along thye Paki border, as an example.

[Victor]

Guys, I am absolutely NOT against the M777 acquisition, Just need to see an order for 1000 NOT 114 Desi guns from OFB\Tata\Kalyani......

Everyone here wants to see 3,000 or more guns ordered from OFB/Tata/Kalyani. That's a foregone conclusion and the culprits are the politicians and babus who have made such a bloody mess of our procurements. That should have nothing to do with arming the IA's first offensive mountain troops. The overall requirement is for 3,000 to 3,500 guns and the money has already been sanctioned for them. There are no "commissions" in an FMS deal, only a penalty for sitting on our arses and twiddling our thumbs.

[member_22906]

I have been following this discussion for past few days and somehow we don't seem to have progressed beyond the original crib of M777 being expensive, not worth the money, 2X or 3X the cost of bofors or Indian products, we should line up our borders with Pak/China with more Indian guns to blast them etc...

Pls understand that firstly, the requirement is niche for M777. Some reiterated that this should be used "only" for MSC since it provides flexibility. We can debate on how often that may be, but as per me, if it helps in giving the MSC the edge - its worth every penny. So let us agree to disagree since we don't know the offensive plans, objective, deployment patterns or order of precedence for deploying Arty resources in comparison to other arms. These by the way are the basis on which allocation and alignment of Arty Brigades happen either with a Div, Corps or Command level...

Secondly, our requirement of towed and motorized/tracked SP guns are over and above this requirement, and I truly hope that we use desi options for this

Thirdly, spraying the border with a gun every few kilometers is a suboptimal (and foolish) deployment of resources since Arty is most effective when you concentrate firepower in an axis

Fourthly, becuase there are people supporting induction of M777 (for the above mentioned reasons), it doesn't make them "import loving" and IA on the payrolls of the import lobby with Swiss bank accounts etc. It can't be a binary argument, either you supoprt my point or else you are anti-desi/Anti-national, etc etc etc...

Some people here are sounding almost like George Bush when he stated "Either you are with us or against us... in this war on terror".

[member_22906]

^^^

The aim is to not trivialise the counter viewpoint to deployment of M777 but to bring out the point that this increases the deployment options for IA and most importantly it gives MSC the edge simply because of the flexibility.

If Arty is provided the priority for Chinooks or other choppers, then M777 is surely a potent option.

[vic]

The import lobby on BRF has a standard modus operand, abuse the posters who support indigenous products, say the army knows best and then avoid uncomfortable issues. OFB M46 upgrade to 155-45 caliber is only 8.5 tons. The stripped down OFB Bofors would be 7 tons orM 46 upgrade to 39 caliber will be less than 7 tons. Pinaka has crossed the accuracy requirement of 1% of range, an M777 would require additional 20 tons of support equipment and ammo to be effective which are all uncomfortable facts that import promoting posters with multiple identities find difficult to answer. And Yes, soldiers require idli sambar errr food also when operating M777, unless import lovers will get Swiss banks to arrange for flying carpet delivered pizzas.

[vic]

Let the numbers do the talking here (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... y-kinetics)

145 M777 for 650 million = 4.5 million USD a piece = 28 crores (in one year 35 crores is my bet)
Desi Bofors = 11 crore for 114 pieces ( 114 units is not enough to set up a mnfr line and bring down costs)

Real cost of M777+Chinooks+Imported ammunition+FOREX drain= Likely 2x to 3x purchase price=60~100 crores

Desi Bofors + Desi Tata truck + Desi Ammunition = 20 crore max (inclusive election fund contribution and Swiss shopping trips)
Employment to how many Indians = No one in Delhi cares about this stuff. Just give the poor free food and make them dependents (poor) forever. This sounds like good old Raj days.

Summary: Buying 145 M777 is equivalent to fielding 500~1000 Desi Bofors.

Indo Pak border = 3000 Kms; total needed to cover and shit scare Pakis = 1000 Bofors.

Guys, I am absolutely NOT against the M777 acquisition, Just need to see an order for 1000 NOT 114 Desi guns from OFB\Tata\Kalyani......

A smart person will see that importing equipment raises the ticket price and commission. Only when we get bankrupt and have to sell ourselves (open economy for IKEA, Walmart..) will this ever stop. Who cares about this anyways....Makes sense why everyone wants a Swiss $ account in India.

Nick actually the calculations are much better. OFB version of FH77 is automated towed artillery. The equivalent of M777 would be M46 upgrade, or stripped down OFB FH777 equivalent ( similar to 1970s M198 or Russian 152mm towed artillery) which will weight around 6-8 tons but would cost around USD 0.5 -1 million dollars. Hence, India can field almost 2000-3000 desi guns compared to only 155 M777, almost 20x.

[vishvak]

One query:how much % is foreign in indegenous howitzers? Trying to find out takleef of purchasing indigenous guns even in Rupees.
OT:
There could also possibility of using m777 the lighter howitzers temporarily till bigger howitzers can reach difficult terrain, while counter military/air force regards progress of enemy. This way m777 can be used at many places while not discounting any howitzer purchase.

[member_22906]

The import lobby on BRF has a standard modus operand, abuse the posters who support indigenous products, say the army knows best and then avoid uncomfortable issues. OFB M46 upgrade to 155-45 caliber is only 8.5 tons. The stripped down OFB Bofors would be 7 tons orM 46 upgrade to 39 caliber will be less than 7 tons. Pinaka has crossed the accuracy requirement of 1% of range, an M777 would require additional 20 tons of support equipment and ammo to be effective which are all uncomfortable facts that import promoting posters with multiple identities find difficult to answer. And Yes, soldiers require idli sambar errr food also when operating M777, unless import lovers will get Swiss banks to arrange for flying carpet delivered pizzas.

Pls be specific about this import lobby and supposed avoidance of uncomfortable facts

By the way, you still haven't responded

The same blah blah blah was used to justify Agusta Westland helo deal. M777 is a good equipment, just not good enough to spend One Billion dollars on.

That still doesn't answer my question to you. So let me repeat it:

pls suggest in terms of tactics and opertational advantage your suggested howitzer gives in comparison to M777. Use the MSC as a reference point. Thanks

By the way, setting up a mule pack Arty was tough enough and now with the more modern guns, to assemble in field is a fairly complex task and requires dedicated support elements.

Another point is that the angle of fire of M46 was never good for mountains (it was derived from M36 naval gun) - that was one of the reasons why LFG were the preferred guns.

So pls give specific points rather than continuing with very insulting accusations towards people who may have a different viewpoint than yours. Some of us haven't spoilt the decorum of this forum and expect due reciprocation from others too

[member_22906]

OT:
There could also possibility of using m777 the lighter howitzers temporarily till bigger howitzers can reach difficult terrain, while counter military/air force regards progress of enemy. This way m777 can be used at many places while not discounting any howitzer purchase.

That should be a logical approach of optimizing resources. I guess it would happen since the holding corps would follow the strike corps in consolidating gains... and these corps will have the plain vanilla version

[rohitvats]

I think we need a separate thread for people to indulge in their fantasies and write fantastic scenarios tailor-made for their arguments.

Preposition guns on the border? What are we talking about here? North-South Korea DMZ with hardened shelters for guns?

Forget the airlifting part - M777 provides almost the same mobility as the IFG in IA service but with higher caliber at 50% the weight of M-46 or Bofors. M-46 is the most widespread gun in Indian inventory with 130 mm caliber. Bofors is deployed primarily with formations on the western border.

Bofors weighs in excess of 10 tonnes while M-46 tops at 7.5+ tonnes. The combat and traveling length of both the guns exceeds M-777 with M-46 being the longest. All these factors play a role in the movement of the gun and its deployment. As for CBF, APU is the not the only magical bullet to take precaution against CBF. Developing and utilizing alternate gun pits is part and parcel of artillery deployment.

And we're replacing M-46 and 105mm caliber here with M-777 - we need the elevation of fire as well as the light weight. Plus, the overall size and weight of the gun will allow larger units to be transported across theaters using the airlift - if required.

Also, the numbers being acquired (even assuming further 145 guns ordered) means they are going for either select formations or to be allotted @ 1 Regiment per Division.

[rohitvats]

The import lobby on BRF has a standard modus operand, abuse the posters who support indigenous products, say the army knows best and then avoid uncomfortable issues. OFB M46 upgrade to 155-45 caliber is only 8.5 tons. The stripped down OFB Bofors would be 7 tons orM 46 upgrade to 39 caliber will be less than 7 tons. Pinaka has crossed the accuracy requirement of 1% of range, an M777 would require additional 20 tons of support equipment and ammo to be effective which are all uncomfortable facts that import promoting posters with multiple identities find difficult to answer. And Yes, soldiers require idli sambar errr food also when operating M777, unless import lovers will get Swiss banks to arrange for flying carpet delivered pizzas.

There should be a separate thread for you to post all your logic and reasoning.

[Pratyush]

Guys, its not just the gun, we also need to look at the ammo resupply in the high mountain areas. Do we have the infra to move the required quantity of 155MM shells to fight a high intensity battle. In the proposed deployment area.

If not then it makes no difference of we can place a 155 mm Piece in the area. I am more interested in the infrastructure for that area.

PS, I have observed one Fh77, battery some where on the road to Nathula,

[member_22906]

FH77 were also used in Kargil so it is not an issue of whether we can deploy them or not. It is about how quickly and with how much effort etc.

Logistics/ resupply has been an issue and that is the precise reason why we need more roads in these sectors. In the absence of the roads, surely logistics does get impacted untill unless they are supported through helicopters. But that is the same case with any element of your war fighting machinery, that if logistics are not supported by road, then you will need to be support through aircrafts and/or mules (and in this case, supply of shells by mules is unrealistic)

[Philip]

I think that we must separate the issue of manufacturing Bofors guns by the OFB (who sat on the rights for decades!) ,and the acquisition of M-777 light-weight mountain guns.The arty. decisions have been hanging fire for so long that one should welcome the choice.Like the eventual Hawk trainer,any bloomin' trainer would've sufficed for the IAF after waiting for decades! Upgrading Soviet era 130mm guns has also proved successful and very cost-effective.When we are faced with excruciating slowness in defence decision-making,we have to innovate.However,has said before,there has to be a holistic approach to equipping out mountain troops with a variety of arty.,lt-weight MBRLs and other firepower as even the M-777s cannot be everywhere.Secondly,the well-known routes of ingress may not be where the PLA will attack.They are unlikely to telegraph their battle plan and likely to attack at several places on the border to sow confusion as to where the main thrusts are going to be.This requires extensive surveillance assets,high-alt recce. aircraft,UAVs,sats,etc. (incidentally,many moons ago there was a hint that we were thinking about /acquring a Russian spy plane to replace our MIG-25s.Here's a puic of a new Russian ELINT/SIGINT Tupolev 214R variant.

First Pic: Russia’s Newest Spy Plane
http://defensetech.org/2012/05/29/17340/

[manjgu]

@phillip... while its true that they will not telegraph their ingress routes... but in mountains i guess the main moves are restricted to certain axis. ofc nobody discounts the needs to have extensive recce/surveillance etc and a holistic approach. the M777 is also to support own troops to ingress into chinese territory. i guess right now anything is welcome...

[Philip]

The establishment of a string of helipads and as many airstrips as poss. ,which can support even smaller turboprops,AN-32s downwards,should be accelerated.We have a large fleet of MI-17s and if the heavy-lift helos requirement is procured asap,will go in some measure in easing the current road infrastructure deficiency. All the assets of our heavy and med. lift transport fleet which can be upgrades should be done.This would facilitate transport of arty as well as tactical missiles like Brahmos,air defence systems,etc.

[member_20317]

The IA asked for M-777 & also for heavier guns so the vanilla 155 and M-777 are two separate requirements with two separate capability sets. Both of which can be financed. So finance too is not a consideration. Hence a cost comparison is not the way to go about doing it. However that does not mean that cost studies are useless. In a different light the general principle still holds - Less cost <=> more/better weaponry <=> better chances of hitting.

As I have read up on some of the study material I have realized that IA has not one but two related problems to handle. One is the problem of guns usage in mountains. This is well understood and the challenges recognized. Our situation is different from others on this point, because Himalayas are much xtreme mountain-gunnery. The second part that is even more peculiar to us is the connectivity problem. Helos, IMO are the only practical solution. Practical but expensive.


You want to make a serious effort at reducing costs:

1) Speculate on how best to increase accuracy against three dimensional targets. Mountains do not offer the luxury of a planer target. In the plains a 50 mtr miss of the bunker would get counted as a hit. Gunners essentially do not target the bunker they target an imaginary yet real, circle around the bunker. In mountains whatever the shell, even a 1 meter miss could easily be a miss with the shell landing a 100 meter below the target. Then the target could be based on ice too. Then there is a further problem of achieving a spherical explosion near enough to another surface that is not a plane. A mountain gunner/missilier will be targeting an imaginary circle about half of which is hanging in the air. These and the rocky outcrop problem are applied mathematics.

2) Study helo making. Also study how to maximize operational availability both quantitatively and qualitatively. By qualitatively I mean - what if we can mobilize smaller number of guns but we can mobilize better CB measures. Also hinted to above by Philip ji. By quantitatively I mean the mean time between overhauls and such like.

[abhik]

The IA asked for M-777 & also for heavier guns so the vanilla 155 and M-777 are two separate requirements with two separate capability sets. Both of which can be financed. So finance too is not a consideration.

That's Illogical, IA won't get double(or whatever) the money just because it feel it needs two different systems. The amount it will get is fixed. If one takes a disproportionate slice of the pie then it follows that the other will have to compromise. And if neither do then the toll will be taken in some other area. We are best served by getting the most out of whatever limited money we can spend on defence. And how can we do that without a cost/benefit analysis.

[pragnya]

any news of summer trials of OFB Bofors gun?? were it held at all?? it passed winter trials in dec 2012 while summer trials was for june 2013 post which 'user' trials were to be conducted leading upto production clearence.

the production/delivery schedule is detailed here.

[habal]

there was a claim by a so-called 'user' that only the barrel of this OFB gun was indigenized, and the rest of the parts were still imported . How true is that ?

[Sid]

there was a claim by a so-called 'user' that only the barrel of this OFB gun was indigenized, and the rest of the parts were still imported . How true is that ?

Even if it, will it matter? I would say good for OFB to do some partnership and get things done quickly.

Wait for some more time and army will be forced to fight with catapults.