Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 02 Aug 2013 22:05

Maj Gen Mrinal Suman

Military: Arrogance of seniority
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... -seniority

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 02 Aug 2013 23:31

^^ Totally second it. I know many officers leave the army because they feel humiliated and ignored for years. This incident only highlights such crazy egocentricness in the Army. Unfortunately this can he fixed only if a good leaders are posted on the top based on Merit and not ass licking. But our good minister doesn't have the courage to take up the initiative of merit based promotion.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Aug 2013 02:11

Status crazy Indian society, its effect had to make it to the Army one day..

Anyways, was this reported? Some real good news (the NV stuff), and the not so good (yet another corruption claim).

http://indiastrategic.in/topstories1974 ... e_deal.htm

Night vision devices: Rs.2,800 crore deal for Indian Army cleared
Published: April 2013

The Defense Acquisition Council (DAC) has cleared a Rs. 2,800 crore ($550 million appox) deal for boosting the night vision capabilities of the Indian Army's tanks and infantry combat vehicles

The DAC, which was headed by Defense Minister A.K. Antony approved the procurement of 2,000 pieces of night vision devices for T-72 tanks for Rs. 1,000 crore; 1,200 pieces for T-90 tanks for Rs. 960 crore and 1.780 pieces for infantry combat vehicles for Rs.860 crore, sources said Apr 2.

While discussing the deal for purchasing AgustaWestland VVIP helicopters for the Indian Air Force, which has been put on hold after graft charges emerged, the meeting decided that the name of Brigadier Y.S. Saini, who allegedly figures in another deal, would first have to be cleared before any other action is taken.

Italian prosecutors investigating defense giant Finmeccanica have accused a serving Indian Army officer, identified as "Brigadier Saini", for allegedly demanded $5 million to influence a contract for 197 light helicopters in favour of the company's subsidiary, AgustaWestland.

The meeting, however, remained inconclusive over the issue of changes in the defense procurement procedures (DPP), an official said. This would now be taken up at its meeting on April 20.

The Council was expected to approve changes to procurement rules that would boost indigenization of defense procurement by giving a bigger role to the indigenous industry for supplying military hardware to the armed forces. In addition, it would give domestic industry, both public and private, the right of refusal before the import option is exercised.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 08 Aug 2013 10:13

The new Strike Corps will comprise two infantry divisions and will be supported by three independent armoured brigades, three artillery brigades to provide potent firepower, an engineer and air defence brigade each, an aviation brigade and units providing logistics services. The Corps will cost `64,000 crore ($11-12 billion) to raise and equip over a period of five to seven years. Approximately 90,000 new personnel will be added to the army’s manpower strength, including those in ancillary support and logistics units. The army has already raised 56 and 71 Mountain Divisions and deployed them in Arunachal Pradesh to fill existing gaps in the defences. Some elements of these divisions will act as readily available reserves for the new Strike Corps to add weight along the axis of attack and exploit success. These divisions will also be employed to secure launch pads for offensive operations across the Himalayas. Hence, these must be seen as playing a significant supporting role for the Strike Corps.

Strike Corps for the Mountains

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Aug 2013 13:48

^^^Only two (I) Armored Bdes are being raised - one for Ladakh and one of north Sikkim. So, clubbing them with MSC does not make sense. As for 3 x artillery bdes, well, I hope the good brigadier means the 4th arty division sanctioned by the CCS.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 08 Aug 2013 15:42

sohamn wrote:^^ Totally second it. I know many officers leave the army because they feel humiliated and ignored for years. This incident only highlights such crazy egocentricness in the Army. Unfortunately this can he fixed only if a good leaders are posted on the top based on Merit and not ass licking. But our good minister doesn't have the courage to take up the initiative of merit based promotion.

Nepotism was masqueraded as "merit" by Chacha to foist Thapar and kaul in 1962.

How do we calculate merit for the army especially in peace time? I would stick with seniority. Atleast the last known merit was at NDA.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Aug 2013 15:44

A martyr’s father remembers

In an encounter that ended after nearly 15 hours of fierce gunfighting, five terrorists were also killed. Captain Davinder Singh Jass gave his life defending his colleagues and homeland. His achievements at such a young age — his engineering degree, MBA, being Captain of the Commando Paratrooper 1 Regiment of the Army, was only overshadowed by his self-sacrifice, courage and bravery. He prevented insurgents from taking a foothold in the Sopore area before he tragically fell. For his supreme sacrifice, Kirti Chakra, the second highest peacetime gallantry award, awarded to Jass (posthumously) on August 15, 2010.

While recalling his son lovingly, Singh said, “Jass used to say that it is a cat-and-mouse game between the terrorists and the Army. Sometimes they kill us, sometimes we kill them. We just want our countrymen to be safe.” Delhi based Defence analyst Sushil Sharma admits as much, “ As a nation, we hardly care for heroes. We failed to build even a memorial to perpetuate the memory of our slain soldiers. This is very reflection on our society.”

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 09 Aug 2013 07:38

Army FIR blamed only terrorists, Chief now differs

Defence Minister A K Antony may have changed his statement and blamed Pakistani special troops for the attack on the LoC, but it has emerged that in its formal complaint on the matter to the police, the Army had held "terrorists" responsible for the cross-border raid.
The FIR lodged by the 21 Bihar regiment with the Jammu and Kashmir police in Poonch contained no mention of the Pakistan army.

However, sources said that after his return from Jammu and Kashmir, Army Chief Gen. Bikram Singh briefed the top leadership, and said that the attack was carried out by a team comprising both Pak army regulars and irregular forces.

It is learnt that Gen. Singh said that the Pakistani border action team (BAT) that targeted the Indian patrol consisted of 15 personnel dressed in "salwar kameez" and five in olive greens (OGs). The Chief said that special forces of the Pak army were involved in the attack and added that the Indian side had reconstructed the entire incident to come to the conclusion.

It was this briefing by the Army Chief that resulted in the new statement by Antony in Parliament, during which he blamed Pakistani regular troops.

It is learnt that on August 6, the Poonch police station lodged an FIR No. 113/2013 on the basis of a letter sent by the adjutant of 21 Bihar against unknown terrorists under Section 302 of the Ranbir Penal Code, 4/25 and 26/27 of the Arms Act, and 2/3 of the Egress Act.

Sources said the letter made no mention of Pakistan army regulars, and blamed "terrorists from across the LoC" for the incident.

"A patrol party comprising one non commissioned officer (NCO) and five jawans, including four from 21 Bihar and two from 14 Maratha Light Infantry were moving from own post to another around 1230 hrs," the letter says.

"With an aim to target them so as to establish their dominance, terrorists from across the LoC had sneaked into the Indian territory and laid an ambush near Post No. 1. As the patrol party entered the area near Cheetah post, they came under heavy fire from Pakistani terrorists around 1 am and in the ensuing gun fight suffered five fatal casualties," it adds.

Station House Officer of Poonch Police Station, Sanjeev Salathia, confirmed the details.

Sources said the Army carried out a reconstruction of the entire attack on Tuesday, that led Gen. Singh to reaffirm that it was carried out by special forces. The reconstruction, as well as examination of the nature of injuries received by the martyred soldiers, made the Army conclude that the raid was had been carried out by a highly professional and trained team and had all the hallmarks of a special operation by trained troops.

(With ENS, Delhi)

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 09 Aug 2013 09:50

Virupaksha wrote: How do we calculate merit for the army especially in peace time? I would stick with seniority. Atleast the last known merit was at NDA.

If you bothered to ask someone in uniform they would tell you the existence of precisely this system built around ACRs, promotion boards etc.

But it's good have an opinion masquerading as fact.

Aaryan · Post by **Aaryan** » 12 Aug 2013 18:09

2013 started with beheading of our jawans by pak, then came the bullying from china.. While china was busy bullying us Pak was silent.. Now China stopped bulling us and continuous cease fire violations from Pak has started.. Is there something more then we mango man can see?? Any comments Gurus??

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Aug 2013 07:26

Received by email

Picked up from Facebook page.

A serving Infantry Commander blames politicians, media & retd generals for
excess jingoism. By VRINDA GOPINATH

A serving and starred infantry commander who has served on the Line of
Control (LoC) in Jammu & Kashmir (among other sensitive areas) when his
unit was posted on the border a few years ago, not just rubbishes the BJP’s
high-pitched drama of “phoney” nationalism, he also castigates the Congress
for its “inability” to counter “political gimmicks” by throwing Army
protocol and the military rule book at its opponents.

Worse, the brave commandant, with characteristic military dignity and
honour, is mortified by the civilian melodrama and farce of converting a
“shameful incident of getting caught in an ambush” into a “mega theater of
tragedy of martyrdom and heroism.” He blames the media, including star
struck retired commanders, for playing into the political establishment’s
scheme of one-upmanship both in the country and in the neighbourhood, and
warns of the dangers of dragging the armed forces into the civilian arena.

Here’s the commandant and military strategist speaking on the ongoing
hysteria and uproar over the unfortunate killing of five Indian soldiers by
Pakistani soldiers in the Poonch sector, on the LoC, in Jammu & Kashmir,
last week.

“ Let’s begin with the information that the Army has provided – In the
early hours of Tuesday morning, (Aug 6), an Indian Army patrol close to the
Sarla and Chajja posts, was ambushed by Pakistani troops along with a few
heavily armed and highly trained militants. Five Indian soldiers were
killed, four from the 21 Bihar Regiment and one from the Maratha Light
Infantry. The unit they belonged to was in the process of handing over to a
new unit and commander.

Defence Minister AK Antony rushed to give a statement in Parliament saying
“20 heavily armed terrorists along with persons dressed in Pakistan army
uniforms” had killed the Indian soldiers. The Opposition went on the
offensive accusing Antony of trying to shield the Pakistani Army in the
killings, and he was forced to make another statement later saying the
Pakistani Army was involved in the killing and infiltration on the border.

How would I see it? First of all, I would call this a normal incident —
these killings happen all the time, more so after Kargil (the limited war
between India and Pakistan in 2001). The last few months have seen several
killings on this side of the border too, of infiltrators or militants, as
we have responded head by head of people coming from across the border.

Now, imagine this LoC border that was created overnight (in the first
Indo-Pak war in 1947, soon after Independence, when Kashmir was divided
into two – the Valley and Pakistan Occupied Kashmir or PoK) — and suddenly
families were thrown on either side of a hostile border. It’s a populated
region and the LoC is sometimes separated on the two sides barely 25 metres
apart.
There are soldiers on either side, armed with weapons and ammunition,
sitting face to face. The atmosphere is threatening, deadly, clenching, and
high-strung.

Now, you may ask how come there are only militants and not Pakistani
soldiers killed by us whereas we always lose Indian soldiers. This is
because we do not have “guides” or “volunteers” who lead an ambush like
this. This is a typical operation carried out by Pakistan’s Border Action
Team (BAT), which first sends out these local, indoctrinated and trained
volunteers, who check out for the target; the poor sods don’t even realize
they are clearing the area for mines; once they have infiltrated the area,
they signal for the Pakistani commandos, who are highly trained super
snipers. Let me add here, that we have never got volunteers from our side,
and often, we have used these guys from the other side to work for us too!!

In this case, I would imagine there were about a dozen volunteers and about
two Pakistani SSG commandos (Special Services Group), who brought the
Indian patrol down. In such a situation, the company or unit commander (who
controls a huge swathe of the border) would have normally been asked for an
explanation by the high command, and been sacked forthwith! It’s the rule
of the game in military operations, for there is no pretext or
justification for sloppiness, negligence or sleeping on duty.

Of course, soldiers are over-worked and over-stressed, they live in 4×4
bunkers, are on patrol 24 hours, but every soldier knows that even that one
moment of losing your guard can lose your life. The company commander,
often a full colonel, who has at least four platoons under his command,
with border posts and bunkers too, is the cracking force, checking and
strategizing by telephone and verbal orders, and keeping the troops on
their feet. In the event of an ambush, especially with loss of lives, the
company commander would be the first to be sacked. The Army also follows up
action with military retaliation and firepower, and we have matched head
for head, often more than the count from the other side.

So, how did a routine ambush and attack come to become so sensational? I
would believe it’s dictated by politics on both sides of the border. If the
Indian Army had been provoked by this ambush, there is a protocol
established, where the generals first speak to each other on the hotline,
then it’s taken over by the political establishment and so forth. Instead,
military protocol was overtaken by civilian hysteria and madness.

How in the world did these five unfortunate soldiers who were killed become
war heroes? The media has played a disgusting and very objectionable role
in the whole sordid incident. I must confess I switched off the television
after a few hours as I could not bear the jingoism that was being prompted
by them.

For starters, it was an ignorant and ill-informed media that ran to
villages and towns of the slain soldiers to show wailing wives and
families, and worse, demanding that the state pay lakhs in compensation.
Does anyone know that not only does the Army get free rations,
accommodation, schools and other benefits, a soldier on the front gets
field area allowance apart from his salary too? In the case of death, or
battle casualty, a soldier’s widow gets full pay till his retirement age,
and full pension too. How can the media provoke families to demand more?
It’s against our ethics and moral code.

So, instead of keeping our troop morale high in loss and death, the
civilian circus, aided by politicians, media and retired generals, have
whipped up a tragic carnival of mourning and grief. I was shocked to see
even our commandants forced to look forlorn in front of the news cameras!!
In circumstances of an ambush, as I’ve said, we normally shoot our guns,and
take a few heads to show our troops that life goes on. We live by the gun,
we die by the gun, or we simply hang up our boots. But by whipping up
nationalist jingoism and phony patriotism, we are letting bitterness and
malice creep in to the armed forces. Leave the Army alone!!

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 18 Aug 2013 08:00

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

While one cannot but help agree with the overall sentiment of this piece -- especially that politicians regardless of party affiliations have proved to be inept if not downright idiotic in dealing with Pakistan, authenticity of anything on an FB page is very very doubtful.

Some giveaways:

1. A Company is often commanded by a full Colonel! -- One didn't know the officer shortage had reached such levels in the army. Who commands the battalion then? A Maj. General?
2. Pakistani commandos are highly trained "super snipers"! -- Given that the longest sniper shot in history is 2.47 km, since these guys were "super", let's give them 3.5 km as their killing range. Why did they have to risk life and limb to cross the LoC then?
3. LoC Border -- What is that exactly? There is a border referred to as IB and there is the LoC which contrary to the author was only "established" in 1972

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Aug 2013 08:07

I hate to be a party pooper,but in conversation with one of our leading experts and in-the-know individuals,I asked how long it would realistically take to set up the MSC,"3 years?"..... "7",was the reply.What about the PLA "incursions" ? What can we do to shove them back,at this time? "Very little" (given our well-known weaknesses in logistics,etc.). The new dispensation in Beijing is flexing its muscles to prove a point to the relics of Zhongnanhai.So our unenviable task will be "border management" for a few years until, we are able to plug the gap.By then the opposing forces might demand another MSC to be formed!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Aug 2013 08:21

This is the general perception .............and all this for a dubious (ig)nobel?? and at what cost??

India’s Pakistan Policy: The Nation Incensed

The Indian Republic stands incensed intensely this last week not only because of the fixative obsession of the Government for resumption of the Pakistan-India Peace Dialogue but more incensed that the Government forgetful of India’s National Honour resorted to vain subterfuges to provide escapist loopholes to the Pakistan Army over its attacks in Poonch killing five Indian soldiers, so that the Peace Dialogue was not derailed.

My previous Paper arguing against the resumption of the Peace Dialogue stood reinforced within twenty four hours by Pakistan Army’s unprovoked attack on a forward border post in the Poonch Sector on the Line of Control killing five Indian soldiers.

The Indian Army’s initial press release contents were changed in the statement made by Defence Minister Antony on the floor of the Parliament, the same day. Thereafter the Indian Army earlier press release was withdrawn and a fresh one reflecting the Defence Minister’s statement was issued.

By then all political hell had broken loose as the Government’s actions in not reflecting Pakistan Army direct involvement had given the game away. Details of this sordid sequence event have flooded the media and it is not the intention to repeat those details in this Paper.

What requires reflecting in this Paper are the details of Indian media reportage on this issue to highlight two facts. The first fact is that the Indian Government stands widely disconnected from Indian public opinion on the issue of its obsession with a Peace Dialogue with Pakistan forgetful of a long sequential of provocations by the Pakistan Army causing a speedy downslide and a further widening of the ‘trust deficit’ with Pakistan.

The second fact illustrates the widespread and strong inflamation of informed Indian public opinion against the Indian Government’s undisguised subterfuges to insulate its propensity to jump for resumption of Peace Dialogues with Pakistan by providing Pakistan with alibis as were evident in the Defect Minister’s statement in Parliament. Excerpts from media reports and editorials are reflected below to illustrate this aspect.

“The decision to change the Army’s inputs on the involvement of Pakistan Army’s regulars on Tuesday’s attacks on the Line of Control that killed five Indian soldiers was taken at the highest level in a bid to insulate the first meeting of Prime Minister Man Mohan Singh with just elected Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif on the margins of the UN General Assembly at New York in late September at the delicate juncture in the relationship.” Indian Express August 07 2014, Front Page Column

Further, it is stated that “The conclusion that we can draw from Mr Antony’s silly but dangerous clean chit to the neighbouring Army is that he Government is desperate to push ahead with talks with the Sharif regime and does not want to acknowledge any truth which can come in the way of that determination”.

M J Akbar who is India’s leading Columnist has some very strong and scathing observations against the charade carried out by the Indian Government, At the outset he states that “Antony did not make a mistake when, on the floor of the Parliament he crafted a loophole through which the Pakistan army could escape responsibility after having killed, with the help of around twenty terrorists. Antony consciously subverted the Indian Army’s official account, based on battlefield evidence, to help the killers. This is a political crime, all the more heinous for having been committed by a defence minister. Antony must resign”

But M J Akbar further on partially absolves the Defence Minister by observing: “Antony was not alone; his statement was fashioned in the alibi room of the UPA government, drafted in collusion with the external affairs ministry and in collaboration with the Prime Minister’s Office. That is how policy towards Pakistan is knitted.”

More tellingly M J Akbar observes that: “Antony was the voice of the Indian government conspiracy to exonerate the piracy of the Pakistan army. …. In the absence of explanation, one can only surmise that Antony, on behalf of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was trying to find wriggle room for his still-fresh Pakistani counterpart Nawaz Sharif so that nothing vitiates their proposed dialogue in New York this September.”

Many other media reports clearly indicate that the Pakistan Army regulars were involved in the attack. The studious attempt to avoid references to Pakistan Army was that had it been named so it would be difficult for the Indian Prime Minister to proceed with a dialogue.

On the background of the changes made by the Defence Minister on the India Army’s original press release some media reports indicate that before his statement in the Parliament, a meeting was held at the Prime Minister’s residence attended by the Defence Minister, Foreign Minister, Home Minister and the National Security Adviser and the statement to be made in Parliament was finalised.

In my previous Paper, I had mentioned the assessment that American pressures were in play for India for resumption of the Peace Dialogue and that factor in play could not be discounted as a determination in the present sordid episode.

Except for an Asian Age Editorial of August 7 2013, one does not find this reflection in any Indian media writings or TV reportage/discussions. The Asian Age Editorial states that “If it has to India must act without troubling itself too much over American concerns that muscular steps taken by India will divert Pakistan military from the Afghan border to the Indian, and this may endanger America’s safe exit from the region”

In conclusion one would like to offer the following observations:

Foreign policy and defence policy management can no longer evade the glare of public scrutiny especially by the alert and Indian media.
Pakistan-India peace is neither strategically possible to achieve nor worth striving for as brought out in many of my Papers over the last one decade arguing that unless Pakistan recasts and brings the Pakistan Army under firm civilian control, Pakistan would be unable to unmoor its Indian policy from Pakistan Army control J Akbar presently observes “The problem is not the Pakistani state. The blockade comes from a shadow superstate that has ideological claims over Pakistan and seeks permanent war with India as its destiny.”
India public opinion cannot be brushed aside to follow personal predilections of any Prime Minister, however noble looking.
India’s National Honour and the Honour of the Indian Army cannot be subordinated to pursue questionable foreign policy goals of any Indian Government in power.
(Dr Subhash Kapila is the Consultant, International Relations & Strategic Affairs, South Asia Analysis Group. He can be reached at drsubhashkapila.007@gmail.com)

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Aug 2013 10:18

That FB article is a farce.

The situation is such that you have Lt. and Captains commanding a Company when a senior Major should do so; all thanks to officer shortage. Colonel's commanding a company? BS of the highest order!!!

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 18 Aug 2013 13:23

Kargil hero shot, then wounded by govt

At 44, he feels humiliated and shortchanged by the Army he was once part of, and the civil administration of Rajasthan, his home state. Meet Havildar (retired) Digendra Kumar, Maha Vir Chakra.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/kargil-hero--s ... 10007.html

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 18 Aug 2013 18:58

I am trying to understand the nature of firing duels at the LOC. given the the quantum of firing etc from both side, there are very few casualties as a consequence... what are the two sides firing at?

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 18 Aug 2013 19:04

Psychological dominance. Also to send a message to the other side to not mess around... Not everything in conflict has logic

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 18 Aug 2013 21:21

Army promises 'adequate response' to Pakistan's Border Action Teams

Tarun Upadhyay and Shyam Sood, Hindustan Times
Jammu, August 18, 2013

The Indian Army on Sunday promised “adequate response” to Pakistan’s Border Action Teams (BAT) -- comprising terrorists and regular troops – “with full force and our choice of time and wish” if the neighbouring country tried any misadventure along the border with India. The Army’s comments came amid heightened tension along the LoC which is threatening to derail the 2003 Indo-Pak border truce.

“BAT action is a tactical operation of regular Pakistani soldiers and terrorists. We are aware of it and it will get, as in the past also, adequate response with full force at the time and place of our choice,” major general VP Singh, the GoC of the 25 Infantry Division, in-charge of Rajouri and Poonch sector told media at Rajouri on Sunday.

A BAT team has been blamed for the killing of five soldiers on August 5 in Poonch and also for the brutal killing of two soldiers in January, one of whom was beheaded. Border Security Force -- which is also deployed along LoC but under control of Army – had foiled another BAT action on August 8.

Gen Singh said he has received directions from defence minister AK Antony and Army chief Gen Bikram Singh to retaliate at “our choice of time and wish”.

“The directions are there with me. We will retaliate and respond to the situation as per requirement with full force at the time of our choice,” said Gen Singh.

The Army chief, during visit to Jammu after the August 5 incident, had given clear directions to the field commanders to retaliate with full force.

Gen Singh said that while it was difficult to detect intruders hiding in high vegetation, but whenever they were detected like in Keri and Lamb sectors, both in Rajouri, they were eliminated.

Two infiltrators were shot dead in Keri in July and in March one Pak soldier was killed in Lamb.

There have been 49 infiltration attempts in the area under 16 Corps -- which controls 225 km of LoC in Jammu divison -- since January and eight infiltrators have been shot dead in this period.

Maj General said the reason for increase in firing along LoC is because Pak has failed to push in infiltrators and is feeling frustrated.

“Pakistan and ISI are making futile attempts to push in infiltrators by firing along LoC. But their attempts have been repeatedly foiled since 2010,” said the GOC.

He said that there are about 200-250 infiltrators sitting across the LoC for the last six-month, waiting to sneak into India.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Aug 2013 21:38

manjgu wrote:I am trying to understand the nature of firing duels at the LOC. given the the quantum of firing etc from both side, there are very few casualties as a consequence... what are the two sides firing at?

Suppressing fire for infiltration mostly from the toilet side, and counter suppressing fire.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 19 Aug 2013 14:08

The dueling may be a limited version of escalation matrix.

Yesterday the TV was showing a news-documentary on how the IA deals with infiltration attempts. The thermal imager was being used in conjunction with what appeared like a ZU-23. Seems like we began using the bigger guns to ensure interception at longer ranges. This then was replied to by Bakis by bombing our bunkers and then we replied with mortar like equipment against their bunkers and pretty soon Bakis ended up shelling the border villages. The tactics show how the terrorists and PA are linked in terms of tactical perspective. Terrorist is the core of escalation for them.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 19 Aug 2013 16:20

Intense footage of firing at LOC

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/i ... s_t_icon_2

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 20 Aug 2013 00:03

Interesting trailer

madras cafe based on the LTTE assasination of Rajiv

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/new- ... 00229.html

hope they do not get cowed down by the pro Ltte politicians in TN

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Aug 2013 02:28

chetak wrote:Received by email

Picked up from Facebook page.

A serving Infantry Commander blames politicians, media & retd generals for
excess jingoism. By VRINDA GOPINATH

He blames the media, including star
struck retired commanders, for playing into the political establishment’s
scheme of one-upmanship both in the country and in the neighbourhood, and
warns of the dangers of dragging the armed forces into the civilian arena.

...not just rubbishes the BJP’s
high-pitched drama of “phoney” nationalism, he also castigates the Congress
for its “inability” to counter “political gimmicks” by throwing Army
protocol and the military rule book at its opponents.

But by whipping up
nationalist jingoism and phony patriotism, we are letting bitterness and
malice creep in to the armed forces. Leave the Army alone!!

This seems to be a totally fake piece written by a typical e NRGA type or having some pro-Congress analyst type write it out for them, with bloopers galore. Note the put down on the BJP, the criticism of the INC is merely token.. the politics nearly jumps off the writeup.

Colonels leading companies, excessive comments about patriotism and jingoism (typical issues which left leaning reporters have with any story that is not "=="!!), references to SSG "super snipers" (LOL, two it seems would take down five Indian soldiers and "only" a dozen untrained supporters).. all sorts of cooked up stories..

Net net, another plant by the aman-ki-asha types to divert public opinion and outrage. Probably written by one of the so called "defense journalists/analysts" on behalf of the interested folks..lot of jargon thrown around but is absolutely fake.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Aug 2013 02:32

rohitvats wrote:That FB article is a farce.

The situation is such that you have Lt. and Captains commanding a Company when a senior Major should do so; all thanks to officer shortage. Colonel's commanding a company? BS of the highest order!!!

Exactly. In fact the overwrought verbiage is telling. Its some journo-shourno, trying to pull fast one after reading a few Clancy's and pretending to appeal to authority, hence the claim of being the "inside Army view". Seriously, Indian 50-centers are becoming as big a pain as the PRC ones.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Aug 2013 02:38

manjgu wrote:I am trying to understand the nature of firing duels at the LOC. given the the quantum of firing etc from both side, there are very few casualties as a consequence... what are the two sides firing at?

Consequence of the limited numbers of accurate PGMs on either side.

It seems clear that we cant use regular arty (because of collateral damage) - something like this would help (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M982_Excalibur) if we had it in the tens of thousands (As versus a couple of thousand Krasnopols hoarded for full scare war). Similarly, ATGMs are not being used - either the terrain does not support them (wire can get fouled in vegetation) or they are too expensive..
Basically, its long range spotting via thermal imagers, and then MMG/Ak/HMGs etc - all of which are not cent per cent effective. Could be that to prevent our side from getting spotted, we are not using tracers. Which makes firing at targets at nighttime even harder.

Against bunkers, all these MGs..they are of limited use.

Apart from that, there are mortars. Again, at night.. not guaranteed accuracy.

Uncle Sam gets away from all this by sending out F-15s and Apaches with FLIR and LGBs - big ones. They dont care about dropping a 1000 lber even to take out a few militants.

So this time the IA jugaad was to use L40s against bunkers..

williams · Post by **williams** » 20 Aug 2013 06:20

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... puter-l-70

Taken from above it looks like in 2003 Army figured out that Pakis are bound violate cease fire and modified the L70 guns to be more accurate. So there is desi precision technology involved here while some of our netas were sleeping. Army is not simply celebrating early Diwali at LoC for sure.

Koshy pointed out that L-70 guns were manually controlled and chances of its success (shooting down aircraft) were very limited as it all depended on the skill of the gunner.

"Now, we have introduced computerised fire-control system", he said. "Computer will take inputs from the directions, range requirements and wind sensors, temperature and other parameters and apply corrections. Computer does intelligence computing", he said.

Koshy said the computer would do instantaneous computation regarding the future position of the target, adding, it would calculate how much deflections would take place for the shells in view of wind speed.

He pointed out that the present system leaves it to the judgement and skill of the gunner regarding the target and its future position.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 20 Aug 2013 06:37

for a moment I thought it was ZSu 23 - 2s but if they are going up the calibre chain - good

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Aug 2013 09:21

KaranM
Can you point to where the L70s were used to bust the bunkers?
I guess with solid shot indirect fire mode.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Aug 2013 12:29

I have personally played around with radar controlled L-70 guns 10 years before that news item linked above. Three guns were mated to a dingle radar and controlled by gunner sitting in a mobile air conditioned cabin. He controlled the guns with joystick while the target is tracked using EO means on TV like screw. I think the news item is about radar being upgraded from Fladermaus to Flycatcher.

Also, IMO, L-70 has not been used on LoC. Some ZU-23-2 were transferred for fixed defence and we saw the clips with the canon.

The direct fire weapon short of ATGM is your AGL and 84mm RL.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Aug 2013 12:40

i dont see why they cant use milan to directly hit bunkers

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 20 Aug 2013 13:10

rohitvats wrote: Also, IMO, L-70 has not been used on LoC. Some ZU-23-2 were transferred for fixed defence and we saw the clips with the canon.

rv, what is the AD gun being used here?? at 1:42 in the video.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Aug 2013 13:16

^^^ thats an L70 i believe

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Aug 2013 13:32

pragnya wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Also, IMO, L-70 has not been used on LoC.
rv, what is the AD gun being used here?? at 1:42 in the video.

That is an L40/60 that was extensively used on IN & ICG Coast Guard ships in direct fire mode against surface & air targets. Recently replaced by 2A42 30 mm BMP cannon.

L40/70 is excellent in the direct fire mode, being the standard gun on the Swedish CV90 IFV, the most exported western IFV. L40/70 was also the primary weapon of the Abhay IFV.

Both guns are the AK-47 of cannons - rugged, reliable & effective.

Infact the Abhay turret instead of BMP turret would have made more sense on ships.

Difference between both are the length, one 60 calibers & other 70 calibers.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 20 Aug 2013 13:56

Using AD guns is not new with IA. IIRC, during George Fernandes' time, a CAG auditor was sent to Siachen by MoD (to put him in his place) since he had raised audit objection on ZU-23-2 being used in anti-infantry role in Siachen

kit · Post by **kit** » 20 Aug 2013 15:47

Why cant the GOI order the IA to do whatever is quite adequately required in response to Pakistani provocation and carry on talking ? Yes the talks will go no where but let the IA use the opportunity to demolish a bit of the Pakistani rangers and the terrorists attempting to cross over. Whats the logic in this measured response.?... unless GOI is not so confident in the IA capabilities to carry out a war if required ?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 20 Aug 2013 15:57

It is perhaps time for the army to lease some LCH/Rudra from IAF and perform quite observatory bullet-less sorties to plan out strategies/logistics. What for are those terrorist launching pads anyway and it can also warn current responses from surprises. Perhaps the army can try out indegenous howitzers shelling or UAVs and so on and on.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Aug 2013 16:20

Some good news.An IAF C-130 has landed at DBO for the first time.Now ,the Q is whether it was fully loaded or not! DBO is very vulnerable to a Chinese attack,as some commentators have pointed out,and what is now needed is a purposeful sustained supply of men and material to the DBO region whereever we feel that gaps must be plugged. I;m not sure if our heavylift helos ahve also landed there.Cab someone check out on this please,whether MI-28s and Chinooks on trials have done so.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 20 Aug 2013 16:29

New footage. pics of destroyed puki posts

http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/443478 ... um=twitter

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 20 Aug 2013 16:36

C130 Beach landing and take-off

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uzpDy3n3Vs