Artillery Discussion Thread

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Aug 2013 15:52

Which OFB 155 is being spoken off. The M 46, upg or the 45 Cal production for the Fh 77.

If it is the upgrade. Then the user is technically right. As everything else is residual imported M 46.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 20 Aug 2013 20:05

habal wrote:there was a claim by a so-called 'user' that only the barrel of this OFB gun was indigenized, and the rest of the parts were still imported . How true is that ?

Don't see how that is possible. The sense that I got was that the ingenious gun was a reverse engineered FH77, as opposed to a licenced copy. So why would BAE/Bofors help?

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 20 Aug 2013 20:09

So Bhartiya - So Predictible.

Complaints of alleged irregularities have been received in connection with Army's plan to procure ultra light howitzers worth over Rs 3,000 crore and a committee has been formed to probe these charges, the government has told Lok Sabha. "Various anonymous complaints regarding alleged irregularities in the procurement of ultra light howitzer guns have been received. The main issues raised in these complaints relate to technical parameters, cost effectiveness and economic viability of the gun," Defence Minister A K Antony said in a written reply yesterday.

The Minister said a Technical Oversight Committee as per the provisions of the Defence Procurement Procedure has been tasked with examining all the complaints relating to this procurement case. India is planning to buy 145 ultra light howitzers from the US government under the Foreign Military Sales route. The guns are planned to be deployed along the mountainous border of the country with China and are expected to form part of the recently-sanctioned mountain strike corps to be raised along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in next five-six years. Artillery modernisation programmes of the Army have been hampered due to one reason or the other on several occasions after the Bofors gun deal scam. Since then, no new piece of artillery has been bought for the force.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 20 Aug 2013 21:04

abhik wrote: The sense that I got was that the ingenious gun was a reverse engineered FH77, as opposed to a licenced copy

The sense I got was it was legally allowed copy as BAE/Bofors had given OFB the drawings and ToT. There is no question of reverse engineering and certainly no question of the OEM giving us any help. In fact, I seem to recall reading somewhere that OFB may have sat on the drawings too long and that the IP agreements may have lapsed. There may be legal issues about even making a copy now.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Aug 2013 21:10

If the OFB is questioned ,they can ask BAe to ask (the late) Martin Ardbo!

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 20 Aug 2013 21:21

In the high heavens Martin Ardbo and Rajiv Gandhi are only too busy discussing about the Swiss Account named Lotus.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Aug 2013 21:22

Even though its cannon fired anti tank missile its more like artillery

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=95272

BDL Signs Contract with MOD for Invar Anti Tank Guided Missiles

Bharat Dynamic Limited, Hyderabad (BDL), a Mini Ratna category company under Department of Defence Production signed a contract with Ministry of Defence for supplying Invar Anti Tank Guided Missiles to Indian Army here yesterday. The contract is valued about Rs. 3000 Cr. The deliveries are expected to be completed over next five years. Invar is a laser beam rider Anti Tank Guided Missile capable of being fired from T-90 tank. It has a range of 5 km. The missile can neutralize adversaries tanks fitted with Explosive Reactive Armour Protection. BDL has been manufacturing these missiles under technical collaboration with M/s Rosoboronexport of Russia.

VP/HH
(Release ID :98429)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Aug 2013 22:26

Old News;

OFB prepares upgraded Bofors with indigenous ammo-Trials by early 2013

Did this happen?

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 21 Aug 2013 06:13

I think the whole 'OFB-designed gun is ready' "hulla-gulla" was timed to forestall the army/ MOD from seriously considering the Kalyani and Tata efforts to build 155mm guns in India.

I am willing to bet $100 that no "OFB-designed" 155/45 or 52 cal guns will ever enter service with the Indian army.

vic · Post by **vic** » 21 Aug 2013 09:11

OFB already makes all the components of FH77 howitzer except the chassis. BEL makes the FCS.

vic · Post by **vic** » 21 Aug 2013 11:29

The import lobby is arguing that OFB cannot use the engineering drawing provided by Bofors 20-30 years ago for its own products. Pray tell us, how long does the restrictions of Patent Act apply?

vic · Post by **vic** » 21 Aug 2013 11:35

On the M777 issue, has anybody wondered how many Chinooks will be available in time of War? What would be its vulnerability to Manpads in forward areas? What will be Chinese SF, SAMs, AWACS, Fighters, AAMs, AD etc would be doing while we will be using 5-10 available Chinooks for our whole Campaign over 3000 km long border? Especially when we think it (few Chinooks + M777) would be better than 2000-3000 indigenous howitzers? How many years till Chinooks are supplied to India? Further, Army feels that more T-90s should be ordered for China border, so 47 tons T-90 is light but a 7 tons indigenous Howitzer is heavy??

vic · Post by **vic** » 21 Aug 2013 11:38

ramana wrote:Even though its cannon fired anti tank missile its more like artillery

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=95272

BDL Signs Contract with MOD for Invar Anti Tank Guided Missiles

Bharat Dynamic Limited, Hyderabad (BDL), a Mini Ratna category company under Department of Defence Production signed a contract with Ministry of Defence for supplying Invar Anti Tank Guided Missiles to Indian Army here yesterday. The contract is valued about Rs. 3000 Cr. The deliveries are expected to be completed over next five years. Invar is a laser beam rider Anti Tank Guided Missile capable of being fired from T-90 tank. It has a range of 5 km. The missile can neutralize adversaries tanks fitted with Explosive Reactive Armour Protection. BDL has been manufacturing these missiles under technical collaboration with M/s Rosoboronexport of Russia.

VP/HH
(Release ID :98429)

Another useless, non-urgent, Single Vendor, nomination based and non-tender import. IIRC BDL has turnover of Rs 1000 crore, profit margin of 20% and import of Rs 600 crores. This shows that BDL is just labelling and selling foreign imports like Konkurs, Milans and now INVARs while falsely claiming indigenous content of 60-80%.

vic · Post by **vic** » 21 Aug 2013 11:42

ramana wrote:Even though its cannon fired anti tank missile its more like artillery

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=95272

BDL Signs Contract with MOD for Invar Anti Tank Guided Missiles

Bharat Dynamic Limited, Hyderabad (BDL), a Mini Ratna category company under Department of Defence Production signed a contract with Ministry of Defence for supplying Invar Anti Tank Guided Missiles to Indian Army here yesterday. The contract is valued about Rs. 3000 Cr. The deliveries are expected to be completed over next five years. Invar is a laser beam rider Anti Tank Guided Missile capable of being fired from T-90 tank. It has a range of 5 km. The missile can neutralize adversaries tanks fitted with Explosive Reactive Armour Protection. BDL has been manufacturing these missiles under technical collaboration with M/s Rosoboronexport of Russia.

VP/HH
(Release ID :98429)

Another useless, non-urgent, Single Vendor, nomination based and non-tender import. IIRC BDL has turnover of Rs 1000 crore, profit margin of 20% and import of Rs 600 crores. This shows that BDL is just labelling and selling foreign imports like Konkurs, Milans and now INVARs while falsely claiming indigenous content of 60-80%.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Aug 2013 13:27

This shows that BDL is just labelling and selling foreign imports like Konkurs, Milans and now INVARs while falsely claiming indigenous content of 60-80%.

This is exactly the point I've brought up quoting analysts who dispute even the "30%" indigenisation figures of the govt. The MOD is now reportedly going to quantify the amt. of import content in "indigenous weapon systems" and many DPSUs are reportedly going to have a hard time with their revised figures,which will expose the import-component/screwdriver tech of some DPSUs which pass of the assembled products as indigenous.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 21 Aug 2013 19:24

Kakkaji wrote:I think the whole 'OFB-designed gun is ready' "hulla-gulla" was timed to forestall the army/ MOD from seriously considering the Kalyani and Tata efforts to build 155mm guns in India.

beg to differ Kakkaji.

apart from TATA's mounted gun, a prototype, which one is 'ready' as of now?? Kalyani and others have plans and even if they go for it (upon IA and MOD asking for it), it is going to take a lot more time than the OFB which is already out - with both the UPG 45 cal gun and normal 39 cal gun, with winter trials already over and IA is happy with it. the summer trials in june 2013 (did it happen??) is left for the OFB to prove - post which, user trials and on OK, OFB goes into production mode with GOI approval.

please note the OFB version is of the 'towed' one - which will cater to a 'part' of the IA's requirement while TATA's mounted gun will cater to the 'mounted gun' category if inducted, L&T's K9 Thunder will vie for the SPH and M777 caters to the mountain corps - being ultralight - on order.

since almost all vendors of the world have been blacklisted, there is simply no option other than the OFB for 'one' category atleast. also to be noted, Bofors is a proven gun in a real war and IA attests to that and they will be only too happy to induct them.

though Kalyani said in march 2012 they would produce (on IA asking for it), a howitzer gun by 2015, that has not happened. IOW if they get a go ahead even now, it will take atleast 3 years for production and proofing over many trials may take another 2 years at the least. IA wants the guns urgently as they have been cannibalising the existing guns to maintain the operational ones. OFB gun being ready and under trials already gives them a head start. Kalyani also wants to join hands with DRDO for the 155mm ARDE developed gun which is a positive IMO. hope that happens. they can be the production agency too. OFB needs to be competed for their own good.

btw i am optimistic of TATA's gun along with hopefully the L&T SPH being inducted but these will take more time.

I am willing to bet $100 that no "OFB-designed" 155/45 or 52 cal guns will ever enter service with the Indian army.

time will tell. OFB's upgraded gun has gone thro' the designer trials with the army's presence and they are reportedly happy.

The performance of the both updated prototypes has been just as expected, project director of the weapon development component and general manager Gun carriage factory GCF S P Yadav declared here. Amidst reports that GCF has already piped the rivals and bagged the Rs 6000 crore project, a jubilant Yadav said that, things were "in process", but declined to comment till he got the order in hands.

Both prototypes -155/45 caliber guns Yadav said have fulfilled all required parameters on the PXE testing orange. There were three successive field trials held in Balasore on December 19, 20 and 23 respectively at the technology intensive range, equipped to provide accurate ballistic measurements .and both specimen could hit 38-40 kilometers mark successfully in presence of Yadav his team and DG artillery lieutenant general Anjan Mukherji who represented Indian Army, along with the experts from defense research and development organization DRDO.

Desi Bofors gun passes the test

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 22 Aug 2013 04:51

pragnya wrote: Desi Bofors gun passes the test

That's an old report. If the gun is ready, why has it not been put through summer trials? Or, did it fail summer trials?

In either case at least a one-year delay till it can pass summer trials.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 22 Aug 2013 09:18

Kakkaji wrote:That's an old report. If the gun is ready, why has it not been put through summer trials? Or, did it fail summer trials?

indeed it is abt 7 months old report. now there is no info on the summer trials. however if you follow these reports sequentially it gives an idea how this has progressed.

1. Jan 4, 2013

SANGAREDDY(AP): Indian armed forces will use in 3 months an indigenous version of the 155mm calibre Bofors guns "which are more advanced than Bofors", All India Ordnance Factories Board's (OFB) Director General and Chairman Sudhir Kumar Beri said.

Speaking to reporters at the ordnance factory at Yeddumailaram in Medak district today afternoon, he claimed it is "the biggest ever achievement of Indian ordnance factories to have manufactured an indigenous 155 mm calibre gun for the country's defence needs". Generally, it takes 60 months to develop and manufacture such guns but Indian ordnance factories did it in merely 16 months, he claimed.

"Earlier, we manufactured only 104 mm calibre guns in India and 155 mm calibre guns were imported from foreign companies like Bofors. But now, we manufacture in it India," he said, adding the indigenous 155mm calibre guns have been successfully tested.

Around 65 percent of the technology used in these guns is Indian and 35 percent foreign. In three months, the foreign component will be reduced to 15 percent, he said.

Ordnance factory introduces indigenous version of 155mm gun

2. Mar 7, 2013

The defence ministry has placed an order worth over Rs 1,260-crore for acquisition of 114 of the artillery field guns developed by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), which has used the designs obtained under the transfer of technology (ToT) provisions in the infamous Rs 1,437-crore Bofors contract of 1986 to develop the new guns.

OFB has developed two prototypes of the 155mm45-calibre guns, one with 68% indigenous parts and the other with 46%, that have been "satisfactorily tested in validation firings" in Pokran and Balasore over the last five months.

The "letter of intent" for the 114 howitzers was placed on the OFB "a couple of days ago" to ensure it can begin bulk production after the "user-trials" in June.

The Army has projected an initial requirement for 414 of these guns, each of which will cost over Rs 11 crore, as part of its long-delayed artillery modernization programme.

Desi Bofors to plug gap in Armyâ€™s long-range firepower

confirmed by this -

3. april 29, 2013

Test of Guns

from testing to placing an order of 114 guns!! does not it mean anything??

In either case at least a one-year delay till it can pass summer trials.

still way better than any guns being procured from anywhere in that time frame. isn't it??

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Aug 2013 01:57

Supposedly Chinook and M 777 guns

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 28 Aug 2013 02:03

they look vietnam era guns to me

kit · Post by **kit** » 28 Aug 2013 03:24

pragnya wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:That's an old report. If the gun is ready, why has it not been put through summer trials? Or, did it fail summer trials?
indeed it is abt 7 months old report. now there is no info on the summer trials. however if you follow these reports sequentially it gives an idea how this has progressed.

1. Jan 4, 2013

SANGAREDDY(AP): Indian armed forces will use in 3 months an indigenous version of the 155mm calibre Bofors guns "which are more advanced than Bofors", All India Ordnance Factories Board's (OFB) Director General and Chairman Sudhir Kumar Beri said.

Speaking to reporters at the ordnance factory at Yeddumailaram in Medak district today afternoon, he claimed it is "the biggest ever achievement of Indian ordnance factories to have manufactured an indigenous 155 mm calibre gun for the country's defence needs". Generally, it takes 60 months to develop and manufacture such guns but Indian ordnance factories did it in merely 16 months, he claimed.

"Earlier, we manufactured only 104 mm calibre guns in India and 155 mm calibre guns were imported from foreign companies like Bofors. But now, we manufacture in it India," he said, adding the indigenous 155mm calibre guns have been successfully tested.

Around 65 percent of the technology used in these guns is Indian and 35 percent foreign. In three months, the foreign component will be reduced to 15 percent, he said.
Ordnance factory introduces indigenous version of 155mm gun

2. Mar 7, 2013

The defence ministry has placed an order worth over Rs 1,260-crore for acquisition of 114 of the artillery field guns developed by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), which has used the designs obtained under the transfer of technology (ToT) provisions in the infamous Rs 1,437-crore Bofors contract of 1986 to develop the new guns.

OFB has developed two prototypes of the 155mm45-calibre guns, one with 68% indigenous parts and the other with 46%, that have been "satisfactorily tested in validation firings" in Pokran and Balasore over the last five months.

The "letter of intent" for the 114 howitzers was placed on the OFB "a couple of days ago" to ensure it can begin bulk production after the "user-trials" in June.

The Army has projected an initial requirement for 414 of these guns, each of which will cost over Rs 11 crore, as part of its long-delayed artillery modernization programme.
Desi Bofors to plug gap in Armyâ€™s long-range firepower

confirmed by this -

3. april 29, 2013

Test of Guns

from testing to placing an order of 114 guns!! does not it mean anything??

In either case at least a one-year delay till it can pass summer trials.
still way better than any guns being procured from anywhere in that time frame. isn't it??

Does India have the industrial capacity to churn out in thousands , or at least half of it in that time frame ?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Aug 2013 07:16

They are105 mm guns.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 28 Aug 2013 08:36

^^

can you elaborate your statement?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Aug 2013 13:55

Please google for the image. Or click on the link below.

Chinook lifting 6 M 119

OTOH, you could also have looked at an image of the M 777 to see if the helo was lifting the same gun.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 28 Aug 2013 14:34

^^
I thought you were commenting on Kit's post. Realized now that it was for NRao's post

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Aug 2013 14:46

I am sorry, I reacted too harshly.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 03 Sep 2013 18:52

Last chance to avoid M-777 sticker shock

The Indian defense ministry has till October to take the US government offer for the purchase of 145 light weight howitzers at the price of USD 694 million, after which the increased price of USD 885 million will come into play.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 04 Sep 2013 04:43

pragnya wrote:Last chance to avoid M-777 sticker shock

The Indian defense ministry has till October to take the US government offer for the purchase of 145 light weight howitzers at the price of USD 694 million, after which the increased price of USD 885 million will come into play.

I bet $10 GOI will not place an order by October.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Sep 2013 04:57

Kakkaji wrote:
I bet $10 GOI will not place an order by October.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1505333

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 04 Sep 2013 05:36

pragnya wrote:Last chance to avoid M-777 sticker shock

The Indian defense ministry has till October to take the US government offer for the purchase of 145 light weight howitzers at the price of USD 694 million, after which the increased price of USD 885 million will come into play.

So a 200 % inflated price is going to be re-inflated by 27 % because ....????

Someone is trying to strong arm us in to this deal before another rupee devaluation strikes.

Are we dealing with the US govt or a US car salesman! This is hands down a car dealer approach.

Clean deal apart, I really have to come across a good explanation of where the 100% added money goes....Pentagon Generals Golf trips or Strip clubs or Foreign shopping trips for Delhi Elites (sparing no one here)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Sep 2013 05:49

Perhaps it is appropriate to cross-post:

NRao wrote:Sept 3, 2013 :: Co-development, co-production in defence top PM's agenda on US visit

Co-development and co-production in defence, including the joint production of BAE Systems’ M-777 howitzer guns, announcement of the acquisition of 20-plus Apache and Chinook attack helicopters from Boeing and second tranche delivery of the world’s largest military transport plane C-130J Hercules, top the ‘informal’ agenda of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s forthcoming visit to the US in September.

..............................................

A high-level delegation led by US deputy defence secretary Ashton Carter is landing in the capital to finalise the agenda in the next few days, government sources told FE.

...............................................

India is in the process of placing an order for M777 ultra-light howitzers (ULH) with Laser Inertial Artillery Pointing Systems (LINAPS) for $885 million from BAE Systems, US through foreign military sales (FMS) route.

.................................

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 04 Sep 2013 08:51

^^^
Originally BAE was marketing the M777 in a JV with Mahindra. IIRC not only were they going to produce the whole thing here, they also offered to subcontract some major components to BEL and OFB. It's only after AKA blacklisted the Singapore company which was the M777s only competition that this became a FMS deal with possibly no offsets/"co-production".

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 04 Sep 2013 09:13

Still trying to figure out why this is 'not' high street robbery:

US Price between ~ 0.7 to 1.87 Million USD (http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1943.html)
India Special Old price ~ 700 million for 145 = 4.83 Million USD (260% more)
India Special New price ~ 885 million for 145 = 6.10 Million USD (326% more)

By the time the ink dries on this, it will be 1 billion. Everyone seems to gravitate towards one billion dollar plus tag.

Following may offend some but have to say this aloud folks:
Is this Brown Stupid Indian price by BAE (British Aerospace Engineering). And why in the world are we touching anything which starts with 'BRITISH'. If 300+ plus years of slavery is so easy to forget then here is a quick appetizer
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/che ... epage=true

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Sep 2013 09:43

I really hope we make India the hub of M-777 production.

The Indian requirement is pretty huge and anything which allows for relatively low cost and uninterrupted supply is welcome.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 04 Sep 2013 13:53

what happened to Tata, L&T 155 mm howitzer project? I thought this M777 is intermediate filler.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 04 Sep 2013 14:13

I think the M-777 deal will have 145 supplied from factory in US and over 1000 assembeled locally

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Sep 2013 14:55

isnt the M777 made partly of titanium? there are restrictions on the supply of Ti, and difficult manufacturing processes to master - but good if do-able

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Sep 2013 14:58

there will be no such thing. we will merely import and bolt together CKD kits probably consisting of some titanium parts and rest steel. we have no domestic source of titanium to my knowledge. even the russians who have supply stopped using due to cost issue after a couple of sierra class submarines and maybe few Mig25/Mig31 parts.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Sep 2013 15:00

USG pays a lot of attention to the world wide supply of titanium...

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 04 Sep 2013 19:19

Lalmohan wrote:USG pays a lot of attention to the world wide supply of titanium...

Well according to Wiki, we produced 8.6% of the total titanium ore produced in the world in 2011. So, setting up a dedicated facility that produces titanium for defense purposes should be feasible.

Having said that, it makes no sense to mass produce M777 when we have better products in the pipeline (like the OFB 45cal or the Kalayani gun). M777 in limited numbers is fine for mountain corps but for road accessible areas conventional guns with shoot and scoot capabilities and better firing range (higher range) will be better. No need to get expensive ultralight guns when the heavier gun will perform better.