Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

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Supratik
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Supratik »

Acharya wrote: God will force India to be a exporting country and will give stiff competition to PRC merchandise.
Many external entities such as global bankers/G8 have the same goal to make sure PRC does not have a monopoly on global trade.

If you are not competitive at $1 = 6-8 yuan vs $1 = 45-50 Rs, what makes you feel India is going to be competitive at $1 = 70 with the Chinese. Those who are trying to say that it will lead to an export driven economy are putting lipstick on a pig. The problems are systemic and not because the currency is overvalued at least not by 50-60%. The currency was stable between 2000-2010 and yet there was a massive improvement in exports. I think this is similar to the east Asian crisis when they had to put capital controls to save their currency and their "east asian tiger" economies got walloped.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by svinayak »

rgosain wrote:
As someone pointed out, India has secularism and sonianomics, both of which were designed to cripple any progress and development. There should be legal recourse to punish those who pedal this kind of economic quackery.
Who said there is quackery in economics?
All economics is political economy to benefit certain political constituency which elected *manics ruling group
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Supratik »

KJoishy wrote:I think India is paying the price for being a 1 trick pony. Coolie labor can take you only so far and has no barriers to entry. There was talk even back as 2004 that Indian companies like INFY/Wipro should come up with products for the local market and many on different fora laughed at it with the argument that things were going well in this no risk business, why change? People began consuming like there was no tomorrow (US style) and people even went against traditional Indian norms by taking on huge loans so they could buy cars, TVs and other luxuries. This was supposedly the "new" way of doing things. I don't think the Government can be blamed for this, though they had their own part to play. This was just a bubble that has burst. People who live in India are lucky that it lasted for as long as it did. The world is flat, so those rules apply.

I don't think this has anything to do with Indians adopting US lifestyle. It has everything to do with the boom following NDA reforms which made the UPA lazy coupled with the win in 2009. So they did almost nothing e.g. the DFC and DMIC were mooted in 2005. What has been the progress? Then followed a spate of scams and last 3 years nothing has moved. Add to that Sonia-socialism of the NAC. They want to implement FSB when the country is in the throes of a currency crisis. Talk of being mad. The markets are just responding to irresponsibility and hammering the currency.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Cosmo_R »

satya wrote:A minor tidbit : MoF never wanted people to stop buying gold . All PCjee & co. wanted is for people to buy gold via non-official chanels . In simple words GoI wants to push Gold imports ( as much as possible) from its 'official trade book' to non-official one . 10-15% import duty was put after due deliberations , consulations & past history of gold imports in India ( old timers do remember the difference in gold price in india and our middle east territory of dubai was 500 or so rupees when it all started ) . So its a typical INC masterstroke. ... .
While the smugglers are at it, they can also smuggle coal , oil, bauxite and timber. The merchandise trade deficit would be halved. :)
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Cosmo_R »

Supratik wrote:
Acharya wrote: God will force India to be a exporting country and will give stiff competition to PRC merchandise.
Many external entities such as global bankers/G8 have the same goal to make sure PRC does not have a monopoly on global trade.

If you are not competitive at $1 = 6-8 yuan vs $1 = 45-50 Rs, what makes you feel India is going to be competitive at $1 = 70 with the Chinese. Those who are trying to say that it will lead to an export driven economy are putting lipstick on a pig. The problems are systemic and not because the currency is overvalued at least not by 50-60%. The currency was stable between 2000-2010 and yet there was a massive improvement in exports. I think this is similar to the east Asian crisis when they had to put capital controls to save their currency and their "east asian tiger" economies got walloped.
You're right. What are we going to export exactly?Textiles? (no there are quotas) Software? (demand is not that elastic) autos? (look at the imported component). Etc.

The economic problems are due to political ones. If you don't solve the latter, the former is not going to be solved.

I will only observe (dryly) that just the other day some Union cabinet minister in charge of Tribals (like they know) was babbling about 'inclusive growth' not just 'growth'. Well, he may get his wish—everyone is in on this luge run to a hard landing.

MJ Akbar recently observed that MMS may be overrated as economist and underrated as an INC politican.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Cosmo_R »

shyamd wrote:This panic is overdone. In effect forcing all the Emerging market countries to close their current account deficit will mean that global economy will grind to a halt. The main reason these countries were running deficits were because they were buying from developed markets. Now who's gonna buy from the developed markets? They are shooting themselves in the foot.

The current situation poses huge opportunities for NRI's, assets in India are now a lot cheaper
"This panic is overdone."

Kidding but ALL panics are overdone. That is what panics are. However, once started, they are hard to stop. On the way down, it's fear. On the way up, it's greed.

In sell panics, it's capitulation of the bulls. In buying frenzies, it's the capitulation of the bears.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Suraj »

Surjit Bhalla lays it onto GoI for its Rupee defence policy, explaining how the recent actions have exacerbated the problem and not improved it. Significant excerpts but not all:
A Deadly Defence
Starting July 15, the ministry of finance and the RBI initiated a set of policies to defend the rupee. These policies have consisted of all the disregarded currency defences that countries have mounted over the last 20 years or so. Short-term interest rates were raised by over 300 basis points, import tariffs were increased, and capital controls initiated. Is there any bad policy left? No.

How successful have these policies been? The rupee was just under 60 on July 15 and today is at 63.5. Bond yields were 7.5 per cent and are now at five-year highs at 9.3 per cent. And the stock market has taken a deep dive of more than 8 per cent since July 15. No matter what the calculation, the rupee-defence policies have gone massively wrong.

And predictably so. What is well known in government circles, to the IMF, academics, traders and most (but not all!) economists is that interest rates do not really affect the value of a currency. When has the interest rate defence worked? History suggests never. And the reason — the answer is so simple but possibly unknown to our policymakers — is because interest rate hikes only buy you a little time at best, and make the situation a lot worse later. As has just happened in India. An investor or trader who is shorting a currency needs to borrow rupees. The borrowing rate for rupees was raised by the RBI by close to 300 basis points on nightmare night July 15. Three hundred basis points for a year means an extra cost of 1 basis point for each trading day. So, if the rupee depreciates by 1 basis point, that is 0.01 per cent, the person betting on the rupee weakening has made up her extra RBI imposed cost!

The second reason the RBI policy was doomed to fail, ex-ante, is because, in my view and according to my research (see Devaluing to Prosperity: Misaligned Currencies and Their Growth Consequences), the only policies that help the exchange rate are acceleration in GDP growth and/ or deceleration in inflation. And symmetrically, a deceleration in GDP growth is a major determinant of exchange rate depreciation. The third mistake made by the authorities is in assuming that either domestic savings or foreign capital flows are affected by interest rates. They are not. Innumerable studies have documented that the relationship between savings rates and interest rates is non-existent; and an equally innumerable number have documented a negative relationship between growth and real interest rates. And a large number of studies, including those for India, document a positive relationship between growth acceleration and exchange rate appreciation. Not recognising this was the fourth major mistake.

The person (or persons) behind the politics of rupee destruction is easy to identify. Considerably more difficult is the identification of those responsible for the economic package. The contenders are several. From Delhi, there is the ministry of finance in the form of the finance minister, P. Chidambaram, and the new RBI governor, Raghuram Rajan. Could they have advocated defending the rupee by raising interest rates to defend the currency? The FM has been consistent in stating that India needs lower interest rates in order to facilitate growth. And from my readings of Raghuram Rajan's numerous writings, it can be inferred, with reasonable certitude, that he could not have advocated the draconian, counter-productive measures.

So where does the needle of economic suspicion point to? Clearly, no matter who made the decision, the ultimate voice is that of the prime minister, Manmohan Singh. The one economic adviser the PM listens to on interest rates and associated macro-economic policy is C. Rangarajan, who is also rumoured to be extremely influential with D. Subbarao, the point official making the ill-fated RBI policy.

Speculation and identification of the officials responsible for the counter-productive rupee defending policy may ultimately be only of academic, and of some (future) policy interest. The most important question remains: what should the policymakers do today?

They should make a policy statement. As a preamble to this most important policy, they should state first that they recognise that the economy is in crisis. Second, and most importantly, state and recognise that the rupee defence policy has failed, and failed catastrophically. (This is murmured in private almost universally.) And issue the following policy statement:

"All the 'new' policy measures announced since July 15 are hereby revoked. We no longer believe in defending the rupee at any level, but we equally strongly believe that it is considerably undervalued, that is, the rupee is in wildly overshot mode, and is thus considerably weaker than its unknown 'fair' value. We are opening up swap lines with the Japanese, the European and the British central banks. If and when we deem it necessary, we shall initiate swaps (borrow dollars) from these central banks. The State Bank of India is issuing a $10 billion bond guaranteed by the government of India. And finally, revival and encouragement of growth will be the new focus of the government. In this regard, it helps that India has a new RBI governor. Go ahead, make my day, short sell the rupee."
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by wong »

^^^^

"Go ahead, make my day, short sell the rupee."

History has shown that macro hedge funds have no problem taking on and breaking central banks (especially when running in wolf packs). Just ask Soros. So, yes, they probably will make the author's day and keep shorting the rupee. Right now, that trade is easy money. Good times for the macro desks.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by chola »

Supratik wrote:
Acharya wrote: God will force India to be a exporting country and will give stiff competition to PRC merchandise.
Many external entities such as global bankers/G8 have the same goal to make sure PRC does not have a monopoly on global trade.

If you are not competitive at $1 = 6-8 yuan vs $1 = 45-50 Rs, what makes you feel India is going to be competitive at $1 = 70 with the Chinese. Those who are trying to say that it will lead to an export driven economy are putting lipstick on a pig. The problems are systemic and not because the currency is overvalued at least not by 50-60%. The currency was stable between 2000-2010 and yet there was a massive improvement in exports. I think this is similar to the east Asian crisis when they had to put capital controls to save their currency and their "east asian tiger" economies got walloped.

China is no longer competitive at 6.1 to the dollar. Things like textiles and shoes have been flooding out of China and into places like Bangladesh and Vietnam for the past three years.

I said earlier on in this thread that the RBI should never have tried to support the rupee (but when it did, it should not have backtracked.) Archarya is right, this CAN force us to be an exporting country. MNC investment is like water, it always finds its level. That level being a combination of price, infrastructure, investment environment and size of local market. The fall of the rupee will give us the first and we have the fourth so all we need is some movement on the second and the third elements.

And we are no longer competing against China. We are competing against everyone from Vietnamese to Indonesia to Bangladesh. In general, we should be able overwhelm them with the weight of our markets. Factories like to sell locally too which was China's advantage over nations who were just as cheap.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by chola »

wong wrote:^^^^

"Go ahead, make my day, short sell the rupee."

History has shown that macro hedge funds have no problem taking on and breaking central banks (especially when running in wolf packs). Just ask Soros. So, yes, they probably will make the author's day and keep shorting the rupee. Right now, that trade is easy money. Good times for the macro desks.

Mr. Wrong what part of currency swap do you not understand? The RBI is opening swaps with Europe, Japan and the UK. That system were designed to stop rampaging financiers of the Jewish persuasion like Soros.

In fact, it is all over the Far East. China itself provides swaps to nearly every country affected by the Asian crisis in 1998. I wouldn't be surprised that there would be a swap with the chinis. No in Asia or the world for that matter wants to see Soros and his ilk take down a sovereign currency. It sets off a domino affect that crushes currency after currency. So be careful what you wish for, my inscrutable slit-eyed friend.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by svinayak »

It is the global trading cartels which are going after the rupee.

When they see a weak govt they will prey on it

But India has controls and can shut the trading market for some time until it stabilizes
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Kakkaji »

I am sorry to this, but the Indian people are reaping what they sowed. They voted out the ABV Govt that was performing and voted in, twice, a Government led by a foreign-born, incompetent person merely because she belonged to a certain family. The voters in the largest state only recently voted in another dynast from a known islam-pasand family.

I am not sure if the people have learnt their lesson even now. :(
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by chola »

Acharya wrote:It is the global trading cartels which are going after the rupee.

When they see a weak govt they will prey on it

But India has controls and can shut the trading market for some time until it stabilizes

No, the bloodsuckers have not yet enter the fray. The last two weeks is simply FIIs pulling up and leaving. How many times have I mention that FII is the less desirable form of foreign investment compared to FDI?

The RBI completely botched their response and that is what gives the currency killers their smell of blood. If they left it alone, the rupee would have found its level and we would be better off. But instead, they tried to defend by squeezing liquidity and then backtracking after interest rates rocketed. That is like throwing bloody chum into a sea of sharks who had been ignoring you.

So true, they prey on the weak, of course. But what we have seen so far is not them. When they move you'll see short bets in London, Singapore and Hong Kong go off. We are not there yet.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by nawabs »

Many RBI panel members against liquidity measures

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/Rlrk4Y ... sures.html
Edited minutes of the technical advisory panel on monetary policy shows four out of seven members wanted status quo

A majority of the external members of a technical committee advising the Reserve Bank of India (RBI) on monetary policy differed on the liquidity-tightening steps taken by the central bank to contain volatility in the currency market.

On 15 July and 23 July, RBI announced measures to drain cash out of the banking system to protect the rupee, but the measures failed to achieve the desired results.

The meeting of the RBI advisory committee took place on 24 July, a day after the second round of liquidity tightening measures.Edited minutes of the technical advisory committee on monetary policy showed one external member, out of seven, was of the view that instead of draining liquidity and increasing the emergency liquidity window rate, the central bank could have just raised the policy rate by a full percentage point on a temporary basis.

Yet another member was of the view that by increasing the emergency liquidity window, or marginal standing facility (MSF) rate, RBI has “tinkered with the operating framework of the monetary policy”.
On monetary policy, four out of seven members of the committee recommended maintenance of status quo in its first quarter monetary policy as the impact of the past monetary measures taken since April 2012 is still unfolding.RBI kept its policy rate unchanged at 7.25% in its 30 July first quarter policy.

Four out of seven members, who advised on a pause, were of the opinion that even as growth and inflation are projected downwards, the RBI will still have to guard against the perception that prices will shoot up in the future.

“Moreover, the external front is fragile and warrants that we do not do anything that can send wrong signals about our discounting the possibility of capital outflows,” the edited minutes of the committee, put up on the RBI website, said.

Two members said that the policy rate could be reduced by 25 basis points (bps) to aid growth, while one said the rate should be raised by 25 bps to address “expectation of higher volatility in the exchange rate in the second half of 2013”. One basis point is one-hundredth of a percentage point.
The meeting was attended by Y.H. Malegam, Indira Rajaraman, Arvind Virmani, Ashima Goyal and Chetan Ghate. Shankar Acharya and Errol D’Souza could not attend but submitted their written views.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by wong »

chola wrote:
wong wrote:^^^^

"Go ahead, make my day, short sell the rupee."

History has shown that macro hedge funds have no problem taking on and breaking central banks (especially when running in wolf packs). Just ask Soros. So, yes, they probably will make the author's day and keep shorting the rupee. Right now, that trade is easy money. Good times for the macro desks.

Mr. Wrong what part of currency swap do you not understand? The RBI is opening swaps with Europe, Japan and the UK. That system were designed to stop rampaging financiers of the Jewish persuasion like Soros.

In fact, it is all over the Far East. China itself provides swaps to nearly every country affected by the Asian crisis in 1998. I wouldn't be surprised that there would be a swap with the chinis. No in Asia or the world for that matter wants to see Soros and his ilk take down a sovereign currency. It sets off a domino affect that crushes currency after currency. So be careful what you wish for, my inscrutable slit-eyed friend.
Non-Indian central banks have zero interest in defending the rupee. India just doesn't matter (you know I'm right my little brown 85 friend).

64.5 and dropping, I suggest you to sell. The rupee could be at 100 and India will still not be export competitive. Labor costs are now a smaller and smaller component of manufacturing. 2 rupee per hour labor but imported gasoline generated electricity isn't going to attract any manufacturers.

And private equity loves a crushed currency so they can buy your essential industries for pennies. Carlyle and Blackstone will probably be bulking up on Indian bankers once the rupee is in triple digits. So, in short, your indian companies will default on their foreign denominated debt. The western and Japanese central banks will yawn because the amount is so small for them and life goes on for the rest of us without skipping a beat.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by wong »

@chola

Let me teach you something chola because you obviously need a clue. You act like this is a surprise for western central bankers and they are gonna panic with the RBI. "We've got to help defend the rupee." They are not surprised. Central bankers look at the country exposures of their banks every single quarter and that exposure is risk adjusted by the sovereign rating (a notch above junk for India) to get expected loss for every single bank from Citibank to Wells Fargo. The data is easily available from Fitch, BIS, IMF & FDIC and compiled into a risk ranker. Let's just say India has been flashing red in most people's risk rankers for at least 12 to 14 >>Quarters<< now.

Hope that helps you and you learned something ('cause you need it).
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Suraj »

Vina and Wong : Don't make it personal. Thanks.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Austin »

Saw a news report on NDTV which mentioned Gold Traders stating that Gold Coin sale will be completely stopped in the country from next week , so he expects about lowering of Gold imports by 200 T due to this move.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Theo_Fidel »

KJoishy wrote:I think India is paying the price for being a 1 trick pony. Coolie labor can take you only so far and has no barriers to entry. There was talk even back as 2004 that Indian companies like INFY/Wipro should come up with products for the local market and many on different fora laughed at it with the argument that things were going well in this no risk business, why change? People began consuming like there was no tomorrow (US style) and people even went against traditional Indian norms by taking on huge loans so they could buy cars, TVs and other luxuries. This was supposedly the "new" way of doing things. I don't think the Government can be blamed for this, though they had their own part to play. This was just a bubble that has burst. People who live in India are lucky that it lasted for as long as it did. The world is flat, so those rules apply.
For once I agree with KJo. Stunning myself.

I realize this may be gratuitous advice but at this stage of development we should keep their noses to the grind stone, save every rupee we can and invest into building up the capital of the country. Indians work so hard but the lack of capital stymies our every effort. Phatta abduls like myself are able to pretend to be capitalists in India which is simply wrong IMO. And incredibly we squander what little capital we have on bad choices. We need to focus on getting the savings rate back up to 40% of GDP. All else is maya.....

We save a lot but not enough to fund our capital needs. Hence we remain vulnerable to the runs on the Rupee every time we over indulge in some luxury/essential we seek to import.

You have to remember the source of the chinese surplus. Poor chinese save so they can lend to the rich countries, earn dollars to then invest in their production. There are no shortcuts around this.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_20317 »

wong wrote:^^^^

"Go ahead, make my day, short sell the rupee."

History has shown that macro hedge funds have no problem taking on and breaking central banks (especially when running in wolf packs). Just ask Soros. So, yes, they probably will make the author's day and keep shorting the rupee. Right now, that trade is easy money. Good times for the macro desks.

wong ji, kindly keep your quant understanding out of this.

What suraj has seconded and the columnist has proposed is making the pack of hyenas run against a hunting party. The hunting party that consists of the whole of India. An economic yagyan is what the writer is talking about. The write up is about abandoning short term measures for a long term malaise and facing the truth.

Do you fear that India might just do that sometime soon.


wong wrote: Non-Indian central banks have zero interest in defending the rupee. India just doesn't matter (you know I'm right my little brown 85 friend).

64.5 and dropping, I suggest you to sell. The rupee could be at 100 and India will still not be export competitive. Labor costs are now a smaller and smaller component of manufacturing. 2 rupee per hour labor but imported gasoline generated electricity isn't going to attract any manufacturers.

And private equity loves a crushed currency so they can buy your essential industries for pennies. Carlyle and Blackstone will probably be bulking up on Indian bankers once the rupee is in triple digits. So, in short, your indian companies will default on their foreign denominated debt. The western and Japanese central banks will yawn because the amount is so small for them and life goes on for the rest of us without skipping a beat.

The flip side you mention is certainly important to bear in mind but is it congenital with you to bring in your chicom middle kingdom nonsense. Did chola claim at any place that – “Non-Indian central banks have an zero interest in defending the rupee”. Is it so difficult to follow the only language ever taught to you? The proposal was for RBI to contribute in defending the economy instead of worrying about trying to fix the value of Rupee by some chicom style manipulation. In deference to your overall message I do agree we cannot match the Chinese in terms of currency management. Chicoms are thieves and no nation in the world can ever compete on that parameter.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Supratik »

C, TF, KJo you are giving a positive spin to the situation. If your wealth is going to be depleted every 10 yrs due to misgovernance, incompetence and sheer crookedness you are never going to make it. You are going to remain at $1 trillion for another 50 yrs becoz you have to depreciate every few years on some excuse or the other. I strongly feel that the problems are systemic and an accumulation of the 10 yrs of UPA misrule.

C, the Chinese are still miles ahead as compared to Vietnam or Bangladesh. They are still sitting on $2.5 T reserves coming out of surplus. The only thing Bdesh competes in is textiles and that the too the bottom segment which most Indian companies do not target. So your argument is bollocks.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_20317 »

Theo_Fidel wrote:We save a lot but not enough to fund our capital needs. Hence we remain vulnerable to the runs on the Rupee every time we over indulge in some luxury/essential we seek to import.
Theo ji,

Re. Imports -
~30% of imports is Oil that we need to run our economy
~20% is capital goods that we need to help our economic efficiency and use the above Oil sensibly.
~12% would be gold and ~5% would be precious stones and ~30% of this is reexported at reasonable margin. And the other 2/3rd becomes the financial saving that the economy indulges in and which makes sense overall because this financial savings amount to probably 1% to 1.5% of the Sakal Gharelu Utpaad especially in this falling price regimen and all of this is available to the economy as Hypothecatable Security.
The balance of our imports too are mostly important industrial or business related items that we do not make in India yet.

The imports of capital goods and other industrial goods would be mostly from OEDC countries or now perhaps to a smaller extent from China too. We do not import junk from Developed countries. Imports from these countries cannot be curtailed. These imports are not elastic.

As a fellow Bharat Rakshak I would really really suggest to you to drop this mis-perception that we import wrong. We produce wrong and we export wrong.

Your point about the mis application of savings is on the production front. It is the productive side of the economy that is starved of capital at reasonable rates. The capital that is available is available only because of our past karma of saving that 1% to 1.5% of our Gharelu Utpaad.

You can stop these long savings for some time but these were not the problem hence the solution will not be found there.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by vivek_v »

Acharya wrote: God will force India to be a exporting country and will give stiff competition to PRC merchandise.
Many external entities such as global bankers/G8 have the same goal to make sure PRC does not have a monopoly on global trade.
The issue is that it is difficult to do any high-tech electronic in India so it is only only in possible things like Textiles or Agro products we can give some kind of competition. Some of which relates to government and some relates to the turn around time which we have with our manufacturing houses and these are not going to change overnight by a depreciating in Rupee.

To give an idea on both the counts let me give an two examples. We (i.e. the company where I work ) needed to make a 10 layer PCB for some application (10 layers means that you have multiple thing PCB wafers where the wiring is done) and the quote from PCB manufacturing houses in India was around X Rupess and a turnaround time of around 2 Months while some houses outright said that they do not have the technology to manufacture the same. Now the same PCB was done by a manufacturing house in Taiwan for X/10 of the cost with X/20 of the timeline (i.e. Manufactured in less than a Week). Now even if Rupee depreciates 100% the time difference and cost difference cannot be made up and Taiwan manufacturing house would still be preferred. Hence only PCB for R&D could be manufactured here and then again it just a over night courier from Taiwan and hence even for R&D the PCB made from Taiwan are better.

Going one step further another PCB which we have had an IC with 0.5mm WLCLP package (basically a very tiny chip) and no PCB manufacturing house in India was able to produce the same while, with the same Taiwan house it was done in 3 days time with no defects. PCB manufacturing does not need the kind of investment as Silicon manufacturing but we still have not made the conditions to make it happen.

Finally government tax regulations where if one Manufacture's a product (again I am speaking only for high end electronic equipments) and imports the same depending on the product classification i will pay anything from 5% to 20% customs and be done with it but if one tries to manufacture the same then he/she has to pay customs duty of 22% (on electronic parts like IC's), plus central excise duty , less yield, more time,more headaches, more assembling/testing cost, why will anyone bother ? Yes, if I export everything then I will get tax breaks but i am already getting the same things from other countries but the benefit of having a big Indian market is lost if the sole purpose if to export what is manufactured.

I am lucky to be a software abdul :mrgreen: , nobody else can survive while doing anything remotely high-tech which requires raw materials imports.
Last edited by vivek_v on 22 Aug 2013 10:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Austin »

No need to panic over rupee’s fall
The gloom and doom pervading the media and public debate in India over the fall in the rupee’s value is difficult to justify. It’s a good thing World Bank chief economist Kaushik Basu (a former chief economic adviser to the Indian government) put this in perspective by saying: “The situation is not nearly as bad as very often being ... reflected in the headlines.”

One pink paper said on its front page on Tuesday: “FIIs the mainstay of the country’s economic growth miracle for years...” Can anything be further from the truth, or more fallacious?

The rupee has seen worse falls, percentage-wise. In 2011, for instance, when the rupee went from 44.80 to 54.20 in a few months (over 20 per cent), there was no hue and cry as is being made out today when the fall has been around 10 per cent from June till now.

Nothing has changed in the past few months. Food inflation is high, the current account deficit is widening, GDP growth is low, imports are ballooning, the bulk of mega projects are yet to take off or are moving slowly. So what’s new?

The fear psychosis being spread over the rupee’s fall is feeding on itself. Unfortunately, people have little faith in the government’s promises, as these are not followed up with action, or the right kind of action. As Basu said, there is no substitute for “good governance, improved bureaucratic efficiency and better business ethos to drive growth”.

Union finance minister P. Chidambaram bravely tried to talk up the stockmarkets, and for a while succeeded, until US Federal Reserve chief Ben Bernanke out-talked him by signalling that he could start tapering the quantitative easing programme by the yearend.

This led to the foreign institutional investors scrambling out of the emerging markets, which had been among the major beneficiaries of the QE programmes. India and the rupee ended up as bigger victims
simply because of slowing growth and other domestic factors.

The weakness of the rupee (which means imports get more expensive) should be seen as an ideal opportunity to beef up the manufacturing sector to produce many more items that are now being imported.

The rupee could well go up to 65 or even 70 to the dollar, but if the government uses this opportunity to help exporters sell more goods overseas, and offer all the incentives needed to cut imports, then the sense of panic would weaken.

The government must demonstrate it is in control of the situation, and not get swayed as well-off Indians and the media complain of how studying at foreign universities has become more expensive due to the weak rupee. How it will do this is the million-dollar question!
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Well bollocks or not there are definitely still bullocks running around plowing fields. How you going to get rich on that.

Decline of a currency is not a given. Work hard, produce goods that others want and the currency will come right back up and smartly. The Yen declined to 1/100 of the dollar without affecting Japans GDP. The inflation of India is due to lack of infrastructure and lack of investment and lack of production. We don't even have enough factories making chappals yet everyone is dreaming of 'green acres' type apartments. In the oil thread I pointed out that there will be less oil wells drilled in India in the next 5 years compared to the wells that drilled into the bakken shale in 6 months. Saar people need to take more risks and invest in the economy. Everyone blames the government for this or that but refuses to take any personal action. India as whole is too averse to risk IME.

A few pages back we had folks making fun of Mallya for failing. Then we had round attacks on Reliance for investing in KG deep water and asking for better, closer to world, prices. Of course Reliance shut down their investment program. Folks need to appreciate risk takers not chop off their legs.
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ravi_g,

It doesn't matter saar. If you ain't got the money even essentials are luxuries. Like I said we are importing oil like no mans business while twiddling our thumbs on local production. What do you think will happen. We simply don't save enough. 32% is not enough. It has to be 40% and above.

And yes we import wrong. There is no going around it. Do you know that BMW's in CKD's are capital goods.
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BTW swinging through CBE, Tirupur industries are booming at full blast due to rupee decline. There were desperate add's for workers offering starting bonuses and even gold earrings on one hoarding.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Abhijeet »

To look at the silver lining, I think the fall of the rupee is one thing that will bring home to people just how incompetent the government is -- this is extraordinary even for India. Things like high inflation, poor infrastructure, poor governance, scams etc have been around for so long that most people are inured to them, but they are used to the exchange rate ranging between 40 and 50.

For better or worse, people associate a strong currency with a strong country, and the exchange rate is a simple, easy to understand number. Seeing the rupee fall daily to historic lows emphasizes like few other things can just how much the current government has mismanaged the country. Hopefully this leads to more thoughtful voting in next year's elections.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Singha »

>> The inflation of India is due to lack of infrastructure and lack of investment and lack of production

true and over the last 10 yrs as you know NDHP has been slowly killed, all big greenfield projects have been allowed to lapse through land acquisition and environmental clearance problems supported from the back by the likes of the gandhi family, jairam ramesh, jayanthi natarajan and the NAC tribe. add to that loose cannons like mamata running around shouting cholbe na cholbe na and sikular caliphs like in UP who are just worried about caste and minority equations and you have this.

is there a way for a country at our tech level and limited money to be uber-sikular and develop massive industries and power gen facilities without any land/environmental/displacement impact....It has never been done anywhere.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Supratik »

T, that is what I am saying that there are fundamental problems that are not going to be solved even if the rupee becomes 500 to a dollar. Japan had 18% continuous gross growth for 15 yrs and is now a first world country. Give us that and we won't complain about rupee being 500 to the dollar. DC is a pro-INC rag and like other such English-media rags are pulling a fast one in favor of their favorite party. Your wealth just lost 40% of its value.
member_20317
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_20317 »

Ok Theo ji, I take this as your personal limit.

................

For other fellow members,

The car import getting classified as Capital goods in certain contexts, is nothing new or even wrong. About 1.5 lac CA+3.5 lac lawyers+30k CS+30k CWAs+10 lac B.Com graduates, all know that from their exam craming days, besides a host of CHAs and Hotel managers, Tour operators etc. so this must be the biggest daylight heist if ever one was attempted in this manner. India has to import cars for business purposes and that is allowed with low import duties. For normal non business uses it has to bear stiff import duties. You do not have to believe me just try to import your own car :) even if a used one.

Now agreed there is some scope for misuse but India will not go down for that reason.

Now the low blow. GoI has to reduce the import duty on hexy cars from around 75% to around 10% and import something like 40k+ cars per year (not CKDs), so they can get for the Indian Industry some permissions/certificates from Eurozone countries for Indian chemicals and herbal goods. And GoI and SIAM have voiced conflicting views on this conundrum.

Anyhow the real problem is not car CKD being wrong economic priorities.

The real problem is what, in terms of soft skills, Atri Garu said, was wrong about current managerial standards. A wrong that keeps getting propounded as the panacea to Indian economic troubles also. Indians are Risk averse. Cannot blame you, if you are irritated by this cacophony. The whole of engineering discipline, the whole of financial discipline, the whole of economic thought, is build to try to meet the basic human need to manage risk but somehow this is not right for Indians. No wonder the Indian businessman does not listen to Indian intelligentsia, let aside contribute to the intelligentsia.

The real problem is what, in terms of hard skills, is repeated by businessmen in all TV channels. GoI has no policy that can provide leadership for the Indian Industry. Industry has gotten wrong footed once again and that is building up resistance to the GoI-lead system. Projects are caught up in arbitrations and litigations. Black money is neither used nor curtailed, it just sits there like toxic pus. New ideas like DMRC have been messed up operationally and financially. More money will be thrown on this model even now. Roads are not getting build. One swanky airport terminal and a few touch screens, are enough to hoodwink/waylay the educated people who do not observe the political scene keenly.

And then Tirupur, land sale, FDI and NRI remittances, can always be sold at least for next some years.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by SaiK »

Meanwhile, the rupee, despite RBI intervention, plunged to a new low of 64.54 to a dollar following fresh demand for the greenback.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Christopher Sidor »

The 65 is the new normal for INR. Though I would be surprised if it did not touch Rs 70. Hats off to the dream team.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by vishvak »

Any comments on this post at global economy crisis thread

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1499526

The dream team not working well and no one knew about that since when.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Austin »

Rs. crosses 65, Chidambaram says no reason for unwarranted pessimism

Video link
member_20317
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_20317 »

vishvak wrote:Any comments on this post at global economy crisis thread

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1499526

The dream team not working well and no one knew about that since when.


I would agree with the comment, unless some of the more informed guys educate me better.

Check out Column #7 & Column #8 of Annex - V [Key External Debt Indicators (per cent)] of the following link.
Also from the same report check out the percentage distribution Govt to Non-Govt over the years in [Chart II: Share of Government and Non-Government External Debt in Total External Debt].

http://finmin.nic.in/the_ministry/dept_ ... EC2012.pdf
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Vipul »

The grip of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If there were any doubts in anyone’s mind about the complete failure of the second United Progressive Alliance (UPA) on the economic front, the events of the last month will have firmly laid them to rest. Through inaction, waffling and economic moves solely aimed at winning the next Lok Sabha elections at any cost, this government has placed the Indian economy strictly now in the domain of self-fulfilling prophecies. And that is very dangerous territory. Because when people—in this case, investors, bankers and businessmen—strongly believe that something is going to happen, what they do based on that belief make their expectations come true. And that process is extremely difficult to halt. Depositors who lose confidence in the bank they have kept their savings in, and start withdrawing their money in droves, fail to understand that this very act is making the bank collapse. It’s the same with the Indian economy now.

Except that, though the classical definition of a self-fulfilling prophecy says that the process is set off by a “misconception” which grips people, in India’s case, that part does not fully apply. For four years now, the world has watched the Indian government turn its back on all that was achieved since 1991, and return to a dole economy reminiscent of the disastrous 1970s, calling it “inclusive growth”. The net result has been some inclusion, but at enormous cost to the economy, and growth has plunged. Someone up there missed the point that you cannot have sustained inclusion without growth, and you can’t have sustained growth if you increase food subsidies threefold through a creaking and corrupt delivery system, and recklessly force banks to raise agricultural credit sevenfold (government statistics from the start of the UPA regime in 2004 and including budget estimates of 2013-14).

You can’t have foreign investment coming in when you scare the hell out of transnational corporations by overruling Supreme Court judgements and proposing laws backdated by half a century to tax investors. This, while you are running up a trade deficit of $190 billion and pinning all your hopes on foreign investment to take care of a current account deficit that’s going off the charts. And you can’t enthuse Indian businessmen when you do not respond to repeated appeals by captains of industry to get a move on, except through empty homilies.

Since 15 July, the government and the Reserve Bank have announced a slew of measures to tackle the free fall of the rupee. Most of them have a strong pre-liberalization echo—using 1970s weapons to fight a 21st century war (A 36% import duty on flat-screen TVs that Indians may bring in from abroad—what archaic madness is this?). The measures have had exactly the opposite effect of what they intended to achieve.

Meanwhile, Chinese soldiers keep coming in and have picnics in Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh, and the government calmly terms them “non-events”.
With all trust and faith in the government gone, we are seeing the classic self-fulfilling prophecy of a run on the Indian economy working itself out.

On 24 July 1991, Manmohan Singh presented his first Union budget as finance minister, and that budget is generally credited as the watershed event that turned India around. The truth is slightly different. Singh’s speech called for urgent “structural reforms”, but the budget itself was not a very radical document. The truly dramatic event that put India on the reforms path and make the world sit up, took place a few hours before Singh rose in Parliament to present the budget.

That event was prime minister P.V. Narasimha Rao announcing the New Industrial Policy. In one fell swoop, Rao scrapped industrial licensing in nearly all sectors, increased the limit of foreign equity to 51% in many areas, cleared the way for foreign trading houses and easier import of foreign technology and sharply circumscribed and redefined the role of the public sector. It was an awesome piece of carpet bombing, and the rest is history.

In the world we live in today, the rupee cannot be defended through short-term policy measures like bringing back capital controls. Neither can foreign investors be convinced to open their cheque books through tweaking some rules piecemeal. The only way to halt a self-fulfilling prophecy in its tracks is to go out there and do something path-breaking and far-reaching, and shake the doomsayers up, like Rao did that July morning 22 years ago. That can trigger off another self-fulfilling prophecy, this time one that will work for India, grow the economy and make the nation confident again. The time for small-arms fire is over. We need to roll out some ballistic missiles. Sonia Gandhi, Manmohan Singh, please stop plotting about 2014 for a few days, and do what a country expects its leaders to do. Stand and deliver. It could even win the elections for you.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by subhamoy.das »

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/opi ... 971973.cms

It should be more like : The poors dragged the middle class down instead of stiving to enter the middle class. UPA realized this and won the elections and will win the next election too! Poverty is a religion here and it is here to increase in a big way in the coming days!
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by KJo »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Well bollocks or not there are definitely still bullocks running around plowing fields. How you going to get rich on that.

Decline of a currency is not a given. Work hard, produce goods that others want and the currency will come right back up and smartly. The Yen declined to 1/100 of the dollar without affecting Japans GDP. The inflation of India is due to lack of infrastructure and lack of investment and lack of production. We don't even have enough factories making chappals yet everyone is dreaming of 'green acres' type apartments. In the oil thread I pointed out that there will be less oil wells drilled in India in the next 5 years compared to the wells that drilled into the bakken shale in 6 months. Saar people need to take more risks and invest in the economy. Everyone blames the government for this or that but refuses to take any personal action. India as whole is too averse to risk IME.

A few pages back we had folks making fun of Mallya for failing. Then we had round attacks on Reliance for investing in KG deep water and asking for better, closer to world, prices. Of course Reliance shut down their investment program. Folks need to appreciate risk takers not chop off their legs.
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Great post saar! :idea:
member_27444
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_27444 »

Its all coalition dharma, you cant blame MMS alone he stopped thinking and started taking orders from DMK, SG, Lallo like visionaray missionaries
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by svinayak »

Amyrao wrote:Its all coalition dharma, you cant blame MMS alone he stopped thinking and started taking orders from DMK, SG, Lallo like visionaray missionaries
Indian interest for the larger interest of huge population will take higher priority over all other things.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Ravig,

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make. My view is India is not at a stage where it can freely import what ever it wants. We should be careful with our money and import carefully. $34 billion in cars? 800 tonnes of gold? really. What would you say to a dead beat relative who does this.
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I have said this many times. There is no consensus over most of India on growth or even economic reforms. There is no great clamor to get government out of business and to allow society to work freely. If there is one failure we can trace back to the NDA & PVNR & MMS fm, it is this one. The failure to explain what the hell they were doing and why to the common folk.

My own experience is that I have NEVER run into the GOI while trying to get things done. Maybe at bigger levels, but for small folks it is the very attitude of Indian folk that is infuriating. Everyone is a hero and even little chaprasi is a feudal overlord. This attitude permeates India all the way up into the boardrooms. People who try to get things done are fools. Jacka$$es sitting on the fence make random cutting remarks and relentless negative commentary. Around the world it is small companies that dominate the economy. Indian society seems to be set up in a deliberate effort to disrupt and prevent small enterprise folks to make any forward movement.
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Another pet peeve I have repeatedly pointed out is that there are serious limits to how fast India can go without getting states like UP, BH, CH, MP, RJ,OD, etc to join the modern world. Here in TN things are growing as fast as ever and yet it is not enough for India. From what I see in Chattisgarh and MP, forward progress is zero. The large 80% tribal population is completely untouched. The state is not even making an effort. The elites sit in their cities and manipulate every rule to suit themselves. There is no sense of fellow feeling for the tribal population, no attempt by society to bring them productivity and access to the real world. Why should they allow an Aluminium plant, they don't even know what Aluminium is.

I said this here last year that seeing these places left me shaken about how far India can go. And was roundly panned and attacked for my EJ, macaulayite, western atitudes.
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WRT the politics I doubt even if the congress got 170 it would try to form a government. The next government is going to be a coalition of some kind. Most folks are resigned to more political instability, random carpet baggers and drift.
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