Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 22 Aug 2013 07:19

Where is the angst about seculars joining "tainted" organizations? Why special demands only for the saffron?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Aug 2013 07:29

devesh wrote:Where is the angst about seculars joining "tainted" organizations? Why special demands only for the saffron?

BRF continues to throw great one-liners masquerading as logic. Unfortunately, one has the obligation to answer even such questions.

My neighbor's son steals. My son steals. I care for my son. So I pull him and talk to him. Since I do care less about my neighbor's son I casually mention it to my neighbor. I also warn my son to measure his relation with the neighbor's son warning him that when bad things happen to that individual he might take my son down with him.

Who are 'seculars', eh?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Aug 2013 07:43

SwamyG he needs to keep himself abreast of what's happening. ..be aware if not a spoiler. And all said and done if the tainted org tag was applied very few orgs in india are cent per cent clean....our system is too broken.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Aug 2013 07:49

Just to explain the above...the same logic applies as to why INC keeps a presence on many committees and the like. Hard experience of knowing whats going on inside even if you cant directly influence them. Of course it could be that AJ is just enjoying himself but thats a tad unlikely given how over sensitive the BJP has been about perception. The bigger danger really is the cross pollination of relatives and rishtedaars ...some are in multiple camps and that causes issues. The indian media...you had made a map right...is a perfect example.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 22 Aug 2013 07:51

SwamyG wrote:
devesh wrote:Where is the angst about seculars joining "tainted" organizations? Why special demands only for the saffron?
BRF continues to throw great one-liners masquerading as logic. Unfortunately, one has the obligation to answer even such questions.

My neighbor's son steals. My son steals. I care for my son. So I pull him and talk to him. Since I do care less about my neighbor's son I casually mention it to my neighbor. I also warn my son to measure his relation with the neighbor's son warning him that when bad things happen to that individual he might take my son down with him.

Who are 'seculars', eh?

my neighbor's son steals from the local community organization. apparently, there are others involved too. this organization also has some power: they fund the local body election campaigns from community taxes. I am in a terrible dilemma. I am one of the board members of a competing political body. but I have no idea which way the funds are flowing from the community leadership. I don't know what deals the opposition parties are making with them.

I am in a great conundrum. I don't want my son to be near such corruption. I want him to be a pristine lotus untouched by such things. but doing so will mean complete ignorance of local funding patterns.

it turns out I prefer my son to be a parama-hamsa, swimming in the great lake of samsara, but forever above it.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 22 Aug 2013 08:03

devesh wrote: it turns out I prefer my son to be a parama-hamsa, swimming in the great lake of samsara, but forever above it.

Fountain of wisdom, beautiful beautiful !!!

member_27444 · Post by **member_27444** » 22 Aug 2013 08:06

Hari sir look forward to meet you again after 5 years

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Aug 2013 08:16

Karan M wrote:SwamyG he needs to keep himself abreast of what's happening. ..be aware if not a spoiler. And all said and done if the tainted org tag was applied very few orgs in india are cent per cent clean....our system is too broken.

Karan ji: There are other ways to keep on top of what is happening. Until we demand the politicians to hold themselves to higher standards, I do not see why the politicians would even care to at least partially achieve those standards. This dhaaga, in particular, sets the bar too loo for BJP. Or is it a recognition that if the Nehru-Gandhi family is removed from the equation, then there is really no difference between BJP and INC?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Aug 2013 08:20

devesh wrote: my neighbor's son steals from the local community organization. apparently, there are others involved too. this organization also has some power: they fund the local body election campaigns from community taxes. I am in a terrible dilemma. I am one of the board members of a competing political body. but I have no idea which way the funds are flowing from the community leadership. I don't know what deals the opposition parties are making with them.

I am in a great conundrum. I don't want my son to be near such corruption. I want him to be a pristine lotus untouched by such things. but doing so will mean complete ignorance of local funding patterns.

it turns out I prefer my son to be a parama-hamsa, swimming in the great lake of samsara, but forever above it.

Wow, a few paragraphs of excuses.

Saar, you get to say the last word. I do not mind some comical explanations.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 22 Aug 2013 08:22

SwamyG wrote:
Karan M wrote:SwamyG he needs to keep himself abreast of what's happening. ..be aware if not a spoiler. And all said and done if the tainted org tag was applied very few orgs in india are cent per cent clean....our system is too broken.
Karan ji: There are other ways to keep on top of what is happening. Until we demand the politicians to hold themselves to higher standards, I do not see why the politicians would even care to at least partially achieve those standards. This dhaaga, in particular, sets the bar too loo for BJP. Or is it a recognition that if the Nehru-Gandhi family is removed from the equation, then there is really no difference between BJP and INC?

yeah...please do lay out the plan for how you want to achieve "holding politicians to higher standards".

stop making generic statements and say some thing real. like how you intend to achieve the above. otherwise, it's the same thing that a thousand other people have said many, many times.

and as long as you don't raise the Left/secular/non-saffron involvement with these elements, I will consider you to be a hypocritical "well wisher". when you have special khujli only for BJP members in these bodies while completely ignoring the non-BJP/non-saffron people, your motives are suspect.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 22 Aug 2013 08:23

SwamyG, do not worry at all. I revel in my ability to provide comic relief. world needs its comedians!

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 22 Aug 2013 08:59

If he is looking for Thakur dominant seat then he should be picking Fatehpur in UP. VP Singh (cunning fox) chose this constituency in 1989 to avoid any shenanigans of Con system.

Gen to take on India’s most powerful lady?

The former Army Chief has discussed the idea with top BJP leaders, who are “excited” at the thought of having a high voltage battle in the pocket borough of the Nehru-Gandhi family. “The former Army Chief was earlier interested in testing electoral waters from Bhiwani in Haryana, his home State. But, Singh realises that the Jat-dominated constituency may not be a winnable seat for Singh, a Thakur,” sources privy to the development told The Pioneer.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/todays-news ... -lady.html

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 22 Aug 2013 09:57

SwamyG wrote:This dhaaga, in particular, sets the bar too loo for BJP. Or is it a recognition that if the Nehru-Gandhi family is removed from the equation, then there is really no difference between BJP and INC?

No, from foreign powers to JNU intellect world, bureaucracy to media and press the odds are stacked overwhelmingly in dynasty run congress favour. To go against such a powerful beast with such high standards would be like going to fight it while sitting in a chair with one's hands and legs chained to it.

As for difference in BJP vs congress:

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ad-network

NDA regime constructed 50% of national highways laid in last 30 years: Centre
Dhananjay Mahapatra, TNN
| Jul 2, 2013, 05.22AM IST |

NEW DELHI: The UPA government on Monday admitted before the Supreme Court that the NDA regime, in five years, constructed nearly half the total length of national highways laid during the last 32 years.

In an interesting affidavit filed before the apex court, the Centre said the length of national highways in the country was 29,023 km in 1980, which expanded to 76,818 km by the end of 2012. This means 47,795 km of national highways was added by successive governments in 32 years.

However, the affidavit revealed that during 1997-2002 (ninth five-year plan), when the NDA was in power, 23,814 km of national highways was added to the existing NH network, or nearly 50% of the total length of national highways constructed in three decades. This remains the largest construction of national highways during any five-year period since independence.

In fact, during the nearly 10-year rule of the UPA government, the total length of national highways laid was much less - nearly 16,000 km, the affidavit said.

During 2012-2017, nearly 3,000 km of additional national highways was proposed to be built but the government decided to de-notify 530 km of national highways in Madhya Pradesh and 627 km in Gujarat.

The affidavit came on a PIL filed by Sanjay Kulshresta, who sought several directions from the apex court to make highways safe for motorists including making available expeditious medical help to accident victims.

India has a total road network of 46.90 lakh km with a road density of 1.43 km per square km. While national highways account for 79,116 km, state highways make up 1,55,716 km and the remaining 44.55 lakh km is classified as 'other roads'.

"National highways comprise only 1.7% of total road network but carry about 40% of road traffic," the Centre said.

When Vajpayee became PM, his biggest passion was 54,000 crore National Highway Project.

In 2004 when he stepped down, only 135.6 km Kundli–Manesar–Palwal Expressway was left to be completed. Now in 2013 after announcing its completion dates at least half a dozen times in last 11 years, the govt. has decided not to announce a fresh date. Almost no work is happening.

This is one tiny difference between BJP and ConParty.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 22 Aug 2013 10:05

SwamyG saar,
What is more tainted than politricks?

Also, I dont think AJ is acting on his own. He is there as representative as his party. Same goes for other guys as well. And remember that Namo is also connected to Guj kirket.

But I agree with you on what you are saying. Except, one point: lotus has been power for 6 yrs while kongis(dynasty) have been in power for 60 yrs. So, lotus is playing by the rules created by kongis.

The questions that you raise should be raised when lotus comes to power, not when in opposition. But, truth be told, even when it came to power in states or center, it seems it did not do anything. Thats one of the reasons for its loss at center. India was shining only for the rich. The masses did not see much qualitative difference. Further, lotus ditched hindutva after coming to power. Basically, lotus functioned as a sanitized version of kongis.

But, Karan saar pointed out an important point. It seems few families control power regardless of the party in power. Some family members are in one party and some are in another. The whole family makes merry regardless of who comes to power. The same allies to the moneybags who sponsor the parties. In this scheme, it is the mango man who is taken for a ride. Basically, there needs to be true democracy.

X-posting my post from cricket thread:

Muppalla wrote:
Singha wrote:Mumbai: Arrested Rajasthan Royals S Sreesanth is facing more trouble as details tumble out in the IPL spot-fixing scandal. Mumbai Police sources have now told CNN-IBN that the examination of Sreesanth's laptop and notebook points to his e-mail interactions with a suspected Bollywood casting director, who sent him pictures of models. Sources say that some e-mails, possibly Sreesanth's conversations with Jiju and a bookie Jupiter, have been deleted and now the cyber cell will be asked to retrieve all the mails.

Police sources have also found a photograph of Sreesanth and the bookie Jupiter saved in the laptop. Police sources add that they have also retrieved a list of contact numbers saved in a folder in the laptop, and all were saved under code names.

This comes a day after reports of how Sreesanth resisted arrest surfaced. Sreesanth, who has been arrested in connection with the IPL 6 spot-fixing scandal, had resisted arrest by Delhi Police in Mumbai, sources said on Sunday. The cricketer was reportedly in a sedan when police approached him in an SUV.

The cricketer, according to the sources, threw his phone at the policemen, who tried to arrest him, and asked them to call up the Maharashtra Chief Minister and the Kerala Chief Minister. He, however, mellowed after seeing bookies in the custody, said the sources.
They will never go deeper on women trafficking. Entire edifice of India will fall flat on the ground. I hate to say, 99% of women (big or small or good or bad) of Bollywood are all pure prostitutes and are in the pleasure servicing industry. This much of money in betting is a top class attraction. If police do a serious investigation and start arresting the women then show the faces to public, stuff that can bring a bunch of governments down will comeout. No way this will be allowed.

Truer words were never spoken. This is the root of it.

I think of most this stuff is done by 'aam-people' for women and to fit-in. Money is kind of secondary.

All of these threads tie in with one another and they are interlinked. Drugs, arms, betting, match fixing, movie-financing, movies, prostitution, terrorism, hawala, corruption of politicians, ...etc. And this ties in with international(or rather multi-national networks) with their hub in London. Most of the important nodes in this network happen to be former colonies of Raj. These nodes can act as resources, markets, conduits or tax havens.

And this is definitely not limited to IPL.

There are two sides to these things. A legal front and an illegal underbelly. Illegal underbelly cannot be taken out without damaging a significant portion of legal side of business. In fact, the top people participating in all these events have lot of inter-relations and depend on each other directly or indirectly.

The danger is that, in desh, these activities finance islamic terrorism directly and indirectly. The same networks are used. The same money is routed. So, one of the reasons for allowing terrorism to continue is because these networks(hawala) cannot be stifled without having repercussions in many other seemingly unrelated fields.

partha wrote:
With such a scary and well-oiled network at hand, no wonder the illegal betting racket boasts of a Rs40,000 crore turnover every season. Not that the Delhi Police has not been on the trail of these notorious men and women but often, for lack of clinching evidence, or negligence, the culprits corrupting the religion of cricket go scot-free.
Legalize betting. That seems to be the only way. At least govt will get tax money. Of course, that will not stop fixing in cricket. That's a different problem.

In these circumstances, legalizing the betting is the worst thing that the state can do. No wonder that some people with vest interests are pushing for legalizing the betting.

What does legalizing the betting do?
It allows people to open betting parlours in every nook and corner of desh. In small villages, small towns, big towns, small cities, big cities and of course, every street corner in metros, one would find betting parlours. One may not have roads, electricity or water, but one would be able to get liquor store and betting parlour. People from the age of 14(or even lower) can be attracted to these places. A betting parlour with liquor availability and a dose of bar balas would do wonders to the business. There would be hi-fi betting parlours and also cheap ones.

Increased exposure and spread would mean increase in customers. That means much greater business, which in turn means, much bigger incentive to pre-fix the results i.e. cheat the people.

And of course, there would be syndicates. These syndicates would also involve local/national politicians(or their benamis). That means many powerful and connected people(including the politicians) enter the betting business. It is in their interests to get profits. How do they get profits? By cheating the people, directly or indirectly...

People who fix the matches or who know such people, would know the results beforehand and can make profits, while the mango man will be made a fool. This is simply a scam.

The govt.s would get tax on betting. Just as, govt.s are getting tax on liquor. Then, Govt.s would look at betting as an important source of revenue. That means, Govts would want the people to participate in betting. But, if people are addicted to betting and liquor, and also lose money, then how will they live?

Well, there are already thing happening which point to how the scenario may develop. The Govt.s would announce 'inclusive social welfare' scheme for poor people. Instead of generating proper economic activity by creating employment, Govt.s take the easy route and depend on money from liquor and betting(even prostitution, if that also becomes legal). Then, the politicians take their cut. The owners of these Org.s take their cut. The mango man is looted here. But, to keep the game running, the Govt creates welfare scheme which runs on the money generated from liquor and betting. So, a poor man spends 200 Rs on bottle of liquor and 300 Rs on betting per day, but he earns only 100 Rs per day. He has debts. He can't afford to send his children to schools. But, don't worry, Govt announces a scheme: free education for children. Money transfer to poor people during elections. The Govt announced schemes are just enough to keep the charade running. How will the Govt finance the free education for children? By indirectly increasing the taxes(i.e. inflation) and through liquor and betting money. Inflation means the poor are hurt bad. In short, it is like Govt takes 10 Rs from your hard-earned money and gives back 2 Rs to you in the name of 'inclusive social welfare'. The 8 Rs are divided between the businessmen, kickbacks for politicians and Govt. treasury.

And the middle-class become suckers in this scheme, until the middle-class become poor enough to qualify for the Govt 'inclusive social welfare'. No employment generation...

----

Bade wrote:Did Sreesanth's initial tweet trigger all this, and now it is a reveal it all as a result of the triggered event not doing a controlled news dissemination, but is firing in all random directions and all others are getting exposed too.

Go to give it to him for doing that for us. How would we ever know. I was gasping after watching the tehelka expose posted earlier. Comments from Gavaskar, Shastri old admins all very enlightening onlee.

I think nothing happens without adequate planning, especially 'expose' of this kind. I mean the dilli cops say that they 100s of hours of conversation taped, right? That means they have been taping it for atleast 2 months. Then, why did they come out with it now? And why out only these chota players?

Anyway, most of these bookies would already be known to cops. So, there must be some reason to out these guys now.

In the above video, Kalgi says that the Sreesanth episode is a small player thing. Even the bookies behind this episode may have been small ones. So, this was not meant to be major, yet it was meant to divert attention of the nation and it was meant to shore up the credibility of dilli polis.

Divert attention from what?
It seems to me that whenever the mms sahib is in the line of fire and the heat gets too close to comfort, some other scam breaks out diverting the attention. After the law-minister had resigned, the mms was the next logical sequence. This episode was perhaps meant to divert attention from that.

But, it seems things are spiraling out of control with different state polis playing their own games. In such times, people try to make the most of it by trying to get rid of their enemies.

Anyway, it seems that Srini Mama's goose is cooked for now. Maybe he can lay low for sometime. It seems mumbai lobby is trying to dislodge the Srini Mama and regain the hold

(End of X-post)

matrimc wrote:JhoneeG
Exactly why swamyG's claim is a bold one and I posted the opposing extremal unsupportable claim. BJP karyakartas and RSS are on the ground in AP. If what swamy says is true then why did they support T in LS?

But saar, how can one conclude that lotus cadre/supporters on ground are in favour of division? ABVP and RSS seems to be present in all sub-regions of AP, so there will be many guys who oppose division in ABVP and RSS cadre in AP. Lotus, on its own, does not have much cadre to speak of. Why, even trs does not have much cadre. There have been some jumpings in and out, but these are opportunistic and unreliable.

Lotus is playing a shrewd and opportunistic game when it comes to its stand on small states. It supports division of those states where it does not have any chance. Because it is unable to enter into new states. Last time, BJP entered new regions was during RJB movement. But once they came to power, they tried to give up hindutva and become just another party. So, they had to find some other way of entering new states. Thats why they are now reduced to fanning sub-regionalism and supporting arbitrary division of states that can have longterm negative for desh. Small stes are politically vulnerable, economically dependent and unable to defend from threats that have presence multiple states.

Still, if lotus thinks small states are good idea, then it should do it in systematic manner. It should support a states reorganization committee and cut all the states to the ideal size after addressing the related issues like water sharing, debt sharing, funds for the new states, ... etc. I think such a process, if taken up in a serious and systematic manner, will take a long time(20 yrs) assuming that everyone else agrees to the concept of small states.

And lotus should start from those states where it is already in power if it is convinced about the virtues of small states.

The first question it should answer is," how small should the size of a state be?"

Goa is a very small state compared to Guj. Which size is ideal: Guj or Goa?
If Goa's size is too small, then Goa should be merged with another state.
If Goa size is ideal, then Guj should be sliced into slices as small as Goa.

In both Goa and Guj, lotus is in power, so it can pass the bill in assembly to kickstart the process. Will they do it?

No, because it is an opportunistic ploy to break only those states where it doesnt have chance.

Those lotus guys who are supporting the division in AP are doing so because it is their party policy. So, it is top-down that is seen, not bottom-up.

It seems to me that supporting division of AP was susma aunty's idea. Namo seems to have in inherited it and seems to think that he cannot do a reverse the policy without losing the credibility. So, he is trying wriggle out slowly. Anyway, I don't think BJP can expect any seats from telugus on its present policy, Namo or not. Kongis just prempted them.

It seems to me that Namo is trying to do on AP what he is doing on fsb, pretending to support but opposing on some excuse. Because, in both cases lotus will not get any credit even if those bills pass. Further, I think politicians are starting to figure out that kongis may not be really doing anything about T except make noise.

BTW, CBN is also slowly trying to apply a reverse gear.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 22 Aug 2013 10:54

Dhananjay wrote:
devesh wrote: it turns out I prefer my son to be a parama-hamsa, swimming in the great lake of samsara, but forever above it.
Fountain of wisdom, beautiful beautiful !!!

Well said Devesh-ji. If BJP starts withdrawing from every tainted enterprise, just because it had been tainted by some one else, they might as well leave the world.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 22 Aug 2013 11:35

Just spoke to a district secretary of BJP. NM is coming to TN on 24th September. He will come to Trichi instead of CBE because CBE ground is only 50K people.

State BJP is expecting 3 lac people in Trichi.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 22 Aug 2013 12:13

Great quote Devesh garu. My regards.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 22 Aug 2013 12:20

NM is playing the uniter not the polarizer. One can make it out from his speeches in Hyderabad for instance. He's setting out to consolidate what Patel did in another manner decades ago. Sometime back he was enquiring from Madhu Kishwar on her views why Kashmiri youth feel alienated. NM will be a game changer. BJP should have begun with a Mission 372 instead Mission 272. My take is NM should campaign in Nagaland, Manipur, ArP, NE states too before hitting the Hindi heartlands. NM should touch massively upon common Dharmic cultural values shared and massive development strategies that boost tourism, sustainable industrialization and creation of employment opportunities in those areas. Starting of his speeches in NAga or Manipuri greetings will be a high touch point in those tours. The trips to all these areas will consciously integrate non Hindi heartland folks into a common mainstream plank and outlook for the nation.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Aug 2013 13:28

assam & NE hill states are particularly hard hit by lack of jobs. the older gen all went into govt jobs or small business. the younger gen has zero job prospects and all of them pretty much have migrated to other parts of india. many educated lads from that region incl BSC graduates are working as security guards in blr if you care to ask.

this is where our lack of mass scale manufacturing is the fatal weakness. there is almost nothing between BPO and the farmhand/mason levels to absorb tens of millions of people.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 22 Aug 2013 13:56

^ it pains to see the glut of foreign made everyday stuff. this is not some high precision things needing imported machinery and skilled labor. We can have mid sized industries that supply regionally, that can employ a few hundreds.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Aug 2013 14:55

Sri wrote:Just spoke to a district secretary of BJP. NM is coming to TN on 24th September. He will come to Trichi instead of CBE because CBE ground is only 50K people.

State BJP is expecting 3 lac people in Trichi.

The Srirangam Town is likely to vote for JJ again next elections. She has improved the power conditions, the agraharam folks are happy with her efforts at the temple, some even think she is 'cauvery' personified.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 22 Aug 2013 15:18

An affair to remember - Hindustan Times

Those who remember the 70s recall Ambika as a perfect mix of beauty and brains. “I have,” said Amarinder Singh, former CM of Punjab, “seen her since the Youth Congress days. She was young, perky and highly intelligent. If she said you were her friend, then she would back you through thick and thin. I have watched her mature from a young girl to an experienced politician.”

Ambika struck many with her looks and guts. She was among the few who could walk beside Sanjay Gandhi instead of following him around. In the Youth Congress, she not only shared the dais with Sanjay but sufficiently matched his aggression. If Sanjay was a politician in a hurry to get things done, Ambika rarely faulted on delivery.

There are a few things not known about her. One is that her family name is Wadhwa; two that her father was a Sen and three that her family converted to Christianity. Or the fact that she struggled with chapatis and rarely got them right.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Aug 2013 15:23

SwamyG wrote:
Karan M wrote:SwamyG he needs to keep himself abreast of what's happening. ..be aware if not a spoiler. And all said and done if the tainted org tag was applied very few orgs in india are cent per cent clean....our system is too broken.
Karan ji: There are other ways to keep on top of what is happening. Until we demand the politicians to hold themselves to higher standards, I do not see why the politicians would even care to at least partially achieve those standards. This dhaaga, in particular, sets the bar too loo for BJP. Or is it a recognition that if the Nehru-Gandhi family is removed from the equation, then there is really no difference between BJP and INC?

Please give practical suggestions as to how you would be able to influence decisions of powerful lobbies without being part of them or at least be notionally part of them to be aware of whats going on. I am sorry to say that you sre being very whimsical in that you expect magical results without even considering how byzantine the indian system is. As to the difference between INC and the BJP here is what it is...no NAC, no constant majority bashing, no go slow in terror to preserve votebanks, proper or at least manageable economic governance, decent infrastructure, less of the left-western driven agenda and crazy laws...these are enough for me as an indian. The issue with your perception is that you dont see any of these issues personally being in the US so you can neither understand our frustration and hence you can afford to wait for the hero riding in with no gaps in his armor and who is a paragon of virtue. We in india dont have that luxury we can deal with an imperfect mk1 as long as it hits most of what we want and does not subvert the very institutions of the state as the current govt has done. Simply put you dont get the gravity if the situation at all. Which is why you are often at odds with those who see this rubbish day in and night out and are bombarded with it. Please be practical sir. Even modi is likely no saint. What he is though is a skilled administrator, a determined nationalist, and a fighting man. That is enough for me. I don't care about his any other issues (unless it influences his decision making adversely). You sir want a knight of the round table and camelot. We are happy with something far less. Because it can grow better and besides which we are already at the edge.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 22 Aug 2013 15:51

Arre bhai Karan M ji, thank god koi to mila India mein rehne wala. My skin had started turning white talking to some of these guys. My people had started calling me ravi giovani.

Seriously we should have a Resident BRF Registry thread also.

..................

Gus wrote:^ it pains to see the glut of foreign made everyday stuff. this is not some high precision things needing imported machinery and skilled labor. We can have mid sized industries that supply regionally, that can employ a few hundreds.

But that would take us out of the global supply chain. And that is considered a big deal by some.

..................

meantime Re. vote share of NaMo from the minority community.

http://www.dnaindia.com/ahmedabad/18781 ... in-gujarat

I don't know the reality though.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 22 Aug 2013 15:57

^^+1 I wish people would stop asking for an immaculate leader to vanquish the disease known as congress. Gold that is pure is useless, it cannot be made it jewelry. Only when alloyed with copper can it be used. So, if you want a practical leader, please stop expecting pure gold.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 22 Aug 2013 16:00

SwamyG Saar
Do your notions of pure as milk source from the sanitized pictures of "real and unalloyed" "Democracy" as supposedly practiced in the West all with the highest displays of Parliamentary decorum Parliamentary language public probity etc in comparison to the Desi equivalents. .?

Please name a Western polity which Bhajapa must emulate or atleast aim for to meet your standards of probity..
Is there currently any political party in India or abroad which you are a fan of or for which you are willing to campaign on the streets And into whose mold you wish to see Bhajapa transform into..?

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 22 Aug 2013 17:19

i would even put up with some percentages siphoned off for personal and party wealth, as long as national security is not compromised and the graph on all things good are trending up.

all this secular, inclusive blah blah are just bogus arguments.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 22 Aug 2013 17:28

Modi following Hitler's tactics to grab power: Digvijaya

Diggy doesn't know how to use his holes. Sometimes he uses his mouth as his rear end, when that happens, something like the above comes out.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Aug 2013 18:28

Lilo wrote:SwamyG Saar
Do your notions of pure as milk source from the sanitized pictures of "real and unalloyed" "Democracy" as supposedly practiced in the West all with the highest displays of Parliamentary decorum Parliamentary language public probity etc in comparison to the Desi equivalents. .?

Please name a Western polity which Bhajapa must emulate or atleast aim for to meet your standards of probity..
Is there currently any political party in India or abroad which you are a fan of or for which you are willing to campaign on the streets And into whose mold you wish to see Bhajapa transform into..?

Why bring Western polity and make so many assumptions about me, huh? Looks like you have already given up on India, for when one talks about honesty and integrity and better expectations from Indian politician, you immediately looked at West. I never uttered a word about any Western country, never compared India to any other country.

I for one believe India, the land that gave Dharma to the World, has enough within itself to charter a way to prosperity. I have always argued that India does not have to be boxed into some of these Western constructs of Capitalism and Socialism, Liberals and Conservatives, Right and Left etc. India's own civilization has given so many models to adopt.

As a fan of Tiruvalluvar & Kautilya, with a grudging acceptance of Krishna's tactics in MB; I understand some of the dirty tactics that a ruler and a country have to adopt at times for the cause of dharma; however these same sources with hazar other sources lay expectations on the characteristics of a ruler and what he should do and not do. So it is from this background that I come from.

Like many in BRF, we are all well wishers of India and would be happy if India prospers and its citizens are hale and happy, and Indic values form the backbone of this growth. Would we BRFites be unhappy if it is achieved under INC? Not. But, we know INC not only is clueless, but already has messed up the prospects. So the next alternate is BJP. And supporting BJP does not mean, one cannot have high expectation on its politicians.

I have a basic understanding of Indian Constitution, multi-party system and FPTP electoral system. So when I state my expectations of a better BJP, it does not automatically mean that I am against BJP (though I do consider it failed big time in the last 2 terms) and that I view Indians should give UPA another term.

Modi has received blessing, appreciation and support because of his personal integrity and way of life. Sure he seems to have some drawbacks, who does not. Yet as days go by, Modi continues to attract what I call "Good, Bad and the Ugly". When enough good people surround Modi, BJP will get better and be really different. It is good for the country.

One does not have to study Nitishastra or understand the conversations between Bhishma and Yuddhishtra to expect better politician with honesty and integrity and a better political party.

The trend in this dhaaga is every time somebody places a higher expectation on BJP, the BJP supporters seem to generate some kind of White Blood Cells, that travel quickly to the post and seek to destroy the 'foreign concept'. It is just beautiful to observe this pattern. Calling out BJP or its politicians does not mean one is a supporter of INC. And also it does not mean a good and better BJP cannot defeat INC. Some of the arguments against my position seems to imply that I expect BJP to be pristine at the cost of a loss. Pandavas can be Pandavas and still beat the Kauravas, they did not turn into Kauravas to beat Kauravas. Some times is comical to see how people twist so much to support their favorite leaders and party.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 22 Aug 2013 18:29

Excellent way to get youngsters to register themselves and NM supporters and seek canvassing volunteers etc.

http://www.namobrigade.in

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 22 Aug 2013 19:17

SwamyG ji,

Thanks for explaining your position . And sorry for my comparison with West ( but that is what I see regularly with people in desh who have given up on expectation of anything good coming from ALL politicians here)

My understanding of the cause for white blood cells approximation ..

As 2014 elections tend to get near people like us get desperate which is a given because this is a do or die situation and many of us especially in desh are at a wits end under the the current UPA dispensation.
So just as in the eve of a battle one leaves the ever prevalent "argumentative Indian" persona behind and falls in line. Any one who niggles will be facing common pressure to conform from the rest.

Its not that discussions in BR will change the outcome or anything .. Yet in all ideological discussions in NaMo dhagha, this seige mentality inevitably comes up in majority (not without reason because paid MSM has left no space for such discussions in real world).

My view is time for debates is long over and that its time for action onlee - political discussion on forum these days serves (for me at least) only for knowing what the leaders are upto ,for sharing info which can be used for offensive on the enemy to convert the fence sitters etc ..no new insights are expected to be generated through ideological debates at this stage which have not been thrown up in the last 10 years.

Iam also a thinking person but unless some thing drastically shakes my belief I am currently set in my mode of "what leader does is correct".

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Aug 2013 21:20

1.swamyg:

I for one believe India, the land that gave Dharma to the World, has enough within itself to charter a way to prosperity. I have always argued that India does not have to be boxed into some of these Western constructs of Capitalism and Socialism, Liberals and Conservatives, Right and Left etc. India's own civilization has given so many models to adopt.
---––------------------

This is the biggest problem....all these points of dharma and this and that,....are sir, forget dharma, thats anyways messed up in modern india..have you set up a business in India or paid hafta or mamul? Do you worry about the kind of policies that are going on? Do you spend a hour in commute stuck amongst highly polluting autos none of which are regulated walking on potholed roads which have kids shitting everyplace? Or have folks point out how the India is basically tied at the hip to Gora economy and everyplace else things are worse...all the while glitzy ppts are made about GDP growth etc. dear swamy g dharma and all comes when people have time for self realisation and don't have to live like dawgs if they are poor or live with artificial stress in a completely decaying system. Your talk of dharma, this, that is from an ivory tower unless the basics get put in place.

---------------------------

2.

As a fan of Tiruvalluvar & Kautilya, with a grudging acceptance of Krishna's tactics in MB; I understand some of the dirty tactics that a ruler and a country have to adopt at times for the cause of dharma; however these same sources with hazar other sources lay expectations on the characteristics of a ruler and what he should do and not do. So it is from this background that I come from.

----------------------

Boss Look at today. Rule 1 fight with what you have and then see to the rest. That means a c mukt bharat per your chosen leader. That means working with financiers, and all sorts of networks to get things in place. Please understand this. Your background is immaterial, so is mine. What matters is solving the current crisis. Which means we don't have to worry about bombs if we use public transport, I don't wake up reading about how my faith has to reform while a wannabe jihadi claims a day is enough to sort us all out and gets away with a slap on his wrist, corruption and crony capitalism is everywhere. Sir India is not the US where all this dross is hidden behind a nice facade of glitter and comfortable living standards which make living tolerable. Here the dirt is so open and what is even worse is that it's a step away, with law and order a farce because the rot starts right at the top.

................................

3.

Like many in BRF, we are all well wishers of India and would be happy if India prospers and its citizens are hale and happy, and Indic values form the backbone of this growth. Would we BRFites be unhappy if it is achieved under INC? Not. But, we know INC not only is clueless, but already has messed up the prospects. So the next alternate is BJP. And supporting BJP does not mean, one cannot have high expectation on its politicians.
--------------------------

Sir this is exactly what is so whimsical. INC is not clueless. They are masters at managing power and making money. Running the nation is incidental. Plus they have now opened the door to all sorts of parasites who are rotting us from within. You can have high expectations from the BJP but in those demands you end up perpetuating the worst govt that India has seen, what happens then sir?

--------------------------
4.
I have a basic understanding of Indian Constitution, multi-party system and FPTP electoral system. So when I state my expectations of a better BJP, it does not automatically mean that I am against BJP (though I do consider it failed big time in the last 2 terms) and that I view Indians should give UPA another term.

Modi has received blessing, appreciation and support because of his personal integrity and way of life. Sure he seems to have some drawbacks, who does not. Yet as days go by, Modi continues to attract what I call "Good, Bad and the Ugly". When enough good people surround Modi, BJP will get better and be really different. It is good for the country.

One does not have to study Nitishastra or understand the conversations between Bhishma and Yuddhishtra to expect better politician with honesty and integrity and a better political party.

The trend in this dhaaga is every time somebody places a higher expectation on BJP, the BJP supporters seem to generate some kind of White Blood Cells, that travel quickly to the post and seek to destroy the 'foreign concept'. It is just beautiful to observe this pattern. Calling out BJP or its politicians does not mean one is a supporter of INC. And also it does not mean a good and better BJP cannot defeat INC. Some of the arguments against my position seems to imply that I expect BJP to be pristine at the cost of a loss. Pandavas can be Pandavas and still beat the Kauravas, they did not turn into Kauravas to beat Kauravas.
-------------------------

Boss what is so irritating is this sort of commentary you make assuming that everyone here is a BJP supporter and they are merely reflexive, unable to understand perfection etc etc..this is some grand mythological drama. Woh sab Gaya tel lene. We want the UPA out because it is destroying the nation and its way of misgovernance is fracturing India totally. We live in this rotting edifice which could be far far better. On the other hand you think it is some sort of game where BJP has to meet magical standards and only then it becomes eligible to rule. Which frame of mind are you in sir? Keep reciting arthashStra or any other hoary epic, but practicality demands that the best is the enemy of good enough. We can live with that, what galls though are your frequent interjections of how x is not pristine.

-------------------

5.
Some times is comical to see how people twist so much to support their favorite leaders and party.
--------------------

No sir, what is comical is your complete and total inability to understand where those who are replying to you are coming from. As I once mentioned to another poster whom I respect a lot, his inability to understand why many citizens are so frustrated with the conditions here, and why they distract threads by complaining about the GOI is because he does not have to experience the daily grind of India and Indian conditions. He actually thought it might be some effort to undermine the forum by vested interests. It didn't strike him that things could actually be so bad.

Flying to India, visiting around, having a sojourn or running a part time business does not count. Stay, experience the grime, the abysmal misgovernance all hidden behind a slick PR game of "good English..people like us" and "secularism"..and then think whether you have the option of waiting for a saviour. It gets worse when you see countries with a tenth of the resources doing ten times better

We on the other hand, will take whatever works. A decade from now when we have our basic needs met, we can rapsodhize about higher standards etc.

Which is why you gripe about Modi meeting with x or doing y, because you think he is some sort of saint. We, couldn't care less. He is the best bet to either topple the INC or shake the system and he is doing what is necessary. Similarly the NDA made a dozen missteps, we were beaten over the head by that by various INC supporters, and now the writing is on the wall that the NDA Govt was amongst the best we ever had. Boss please, enough of all this epic stuff, please be practical that at least there is a Modi and a RSS BJP group, which despite all the attempts to break them remain behind to help him. Without them, he too is nothing. Something which you miss when you post about modi leaving and forming some new magical org that would be better than all else...it just shows how little you understand of our current Indian system, where organizational strength and motivation are critical. To beat a 60 year old octopus with tentacles in every cranny, every edge is required. Please understand how tough the challenge is, instead of carping how the foolish BJP supporters have such low standards.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Aug 2013 21:27

so sounds like INC is la well-oiled machinery and others are like next-generation prototypes who keep feeding the oiled machinery [like toll collected to up-keep the machinery - show up and get lost], and have no strength to match. i think this is a truth, then oil will continue to be fed. after all, for many a corrupt, a corrupt regime is the only savior of their corruption deeds.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Aug 2013 21:35

SaiK wrote:so sounds like INC is la well-oiled machinery and others are like next-generation prototypes who keep feeding the oiled machinery [like toll collected to up-keep the machinery - show up and get lost], and have no strength to match. i think this is a truth, then oil will continue to be fed. after all, for many a corrupt, a corrupt regime is the only savior of their corruption deeds.

Rome wasn't built in a day. We need INC out for at least four or five consecutive terms to give Indian institutions a chance to recover from the feeling their mai baap is the Congress...in practical terms even 3 terms would be ok...basically an entire bunch of folks need to be in the system without becoming congress Bhakts...and the time should allow BJP to get an entire bunch of capable national level admins..who can then keep the INC on its toes even if they are not in power. The abject manner in which LKA and co have allowed the INC to chart out a discourse on saffron terror, allow every leftist loon to slander their leaders, plus break their own party in Karnataka.. All that idiocy is unacceptable.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 22 Aug 2013 21:41

johneeG
That is all beside the point. I was objecting to swamyG's characterization of the (non)division of AP as "unity is paramount". After my post, he flipped to "bifurcation is on the minds of everybody". In any case I readily agree that the stats are hard to come by and hence all the heartburn on BRF (you see proponents making strong arguments on both sides) and out there. I do not believe that however long one waits the T demands will go away. If not done now, it will keep on popping up every decade or even more frequently. Better to take the plunge and divide so that people in kottha AP/T can go on with their lives. I think mentally people in seemandhra also have crossed a point of no return. T people crossed that point several decades back.

disha · Post by **disha** » 22 Aug 2013 21:43

Karan M wrote:Rome wasn't built in a day. We need INC out for at least four or five consecutive terms to give Indian institutions a chance to recover from the feeling their mai baap is the Congress...in practical terms even 3 terms would be ok...basically an entire bunch of folks need to be in the system without becoming congress Bhakts...

Correct., at least 3 terms where in a 10 year old grows to 25 year in a congress mukt bharat. If that voter decides to bring back Congress, it is their choice.

That is why I call JLN the single biggest failure of Indian democracy. Once the constitution was in, he should not have stayed beyond the first term. Should have stepped down and become the "chairman emeritus" of the Indian democracy., ala George Washington.

At the end of the day, JLN proved himself to be a petty politician., sauve but petty. No different from a salt of the earth garden variety politician from a far corner of India.

And regarding "institution building"., there were several others who actually built the "institutions". Giving all credit to JLN basically proves my point that JLN did not let the democracy flourish.

disha · Post by **disha** » 22 Aug 2013 21:49

Lilo wrote:My view is time for debates is long over and that its time for action onlee - political discussion on forum these days serves (for me at least) only for knowing what the leaders are upto ,for sharing info which can be used for offensive on the enemy to convert the fence sitters etc ..no new insights are expected to be generated through ideological debates at this stage which have not been thrown up in the last 10 years.

Iam also a thinking person but unless some thing drastically shakes my belief I am currently set in my mode of "what leader does is correct".

Excellent post Lilo ji.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Aug 2013 21:52

matrimc wrote:johneeG
That is all beside the point. I was objecting to swamyG's characterization of the (non)division of AP as "unity is paramount". After my post, he flipped to "bifurcation is on the minds of everybody". In any case I readily agree that the stats are hard to come by and hence all the heartburn on BRF (you see proponents making strong arguments on both sides) and out there. I do not believe that however long one waits the T demands will go away. If not done now, it will keep on popping up every decade or even more frequently. Better to take the plunge and divide so that people in kottha AP/T can go on with their lives. I think mentally people in seemandhra also have crossed a point of no return. T people crossed that point several decades back.

You point to the vulnerability of the Telugu people and the hazard that separation can raise its head periodically to suit the conveinence of political parties. Your suggestion is to reduce future costs by agreeing to separation now.

Do you see if this is logic was applied before?

Eg Divison of Hastinapura Kingdom for the Kaurava-Pandava split onwards to more recent times?

Just pointing. I am equanimous now.

disha · Post by **disha** » 22 Aug 2013 21:57

Karan M wrote: ------------------------

This is the biggest problem....all these points of dharma and this and that,....are sir, forget dharma, thats anyways messed up in modern india..have you set up a business in India or paid hafta or mamul? Do you worry about the kind of policies that are going on? Do you spend a hour in commute stuck amongst highly polluting autos none of which are regulated walking on potholed roads which have kids shitting everyplace? Or have folks point out how the India is basically tied at the hip to Gora economy and everyplace else things are worse...all the while glitzy ppts are made about GDP growth etc. dear swamy g dharma and all comes when people have time for self realisation and don't have to live like dawgs if they are poor or live with artificial stress in a completely decaying system. Your talk of dharma, this, that is from an ivory tower unless the basics get put in place.

---------------------------

Boss Look at today. Rule 1 fight with what you have and then see to the rest. That means a c mukt bharat per your chosen leader. That means working with financiers, and all sorts of networks to get things in place. Please understand this. Your background is immaterial, so is mine. What matters is solving the current crisis. Which means we don't have to worry about bombs if we use public transport, I don't wake up reading about how my faith has to reform while a wannabe jihadi claims a day is enough to sort us all out and gets away with a slap on his wrist, corruption and crony capitalism is everywhere. Sir India is not the US where all this dross is hidden behind a nice facade of glitter and comfortable living standards which make living tolerable. Here the dirt is so open and what is even worse is that it's a step away, with law and order a farce because the rot starts right at the top.

................................

Sir this is exactly what is so whimsical. INC is not clueless. They are masters at managing power and making money. Running the nation is incidental. Plus they have now opened the door to all sorts of parasites who are rotting us from within. You can have high expectations from the BJP but in those demands you end up perpetuating the worst govt that India has seen, what happens then sir?

---------------------------------------------------

Boss what is so irritating is this sort of commentary you make assuming that everyone here is a BJP supporter and they are merely reflexive, unable to understand perfection etc etc..this is some grand mythological drama. Woh sab Gaya tel lene. We want the UPA out because it is destroying the nation and its way of misgovernance is fracturing India totally. We live in this rotting edifice which could be far far better. On the other hand you think it is some sort of game where BJP has to meet magical standards and only then it becomes eligible to rule. Which frame of mind are you in sir? Keep reciting arthashStra or any other hoary epic, but practicality demands that the best is the enemy of good enough. We can live with that, what galls though are your frequent interjections of how x is not pristine.

-------------------

Flying to India, visiting around, having a sojourn or running a part time business does not count. Stay, experience the grime, the abysmal misgovernance all hidden behind a slick PR game of "good English..people like us" and "secularism"..and then think whether you have the option of waiting for a saviour. It gets worse when you see countries with a tenth of the resources doing ten times better
We on the other hand, will take whatever works. A decade from now when we have our basic needs met, we can rapsodhize about higher standards etc.

Which is why you gripe about Modi meeting with x or doing y, because you think he is some sort of saint. We, couldn't care less. He is the best bet to either topple the INC or shake the system and he is doing what is necessary. Similarly the NDA made a dozen missteps, we were beaten over the head by that by various INC supporters, and now the writing is on the wall that the NDA Govt was amongst the best we ever had. Boss please, enough of all this epic stuff, please be practical that at least there is a Modi and a RSS BJP group, which despite all the attempts to break them remain behind to help him. Without them, he too is nothing. Something which you miss when you post about modi leaving and forming some new magical org that would be better than all else...it just shows how little you understand of our current Indian system, where organizational strength and motivation are critical. To beat a 60 year old octopus with tentacles in every cranny, every edge is required. Please understand how tough the challenge is, instead of carping how the foolish BJP supporters have such low standards.

Excellent points. Reproduced since I cannot help re-reading it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Aug 2013 22:09

disha wrote:
Karan M wrote:Rome wasn't built in a day. We need INC out for at least four or five consecutive terms to give Indian institutions a chance to recover from the feeling their mai baap is the Congress...in practical terms even 3 terms would be ok...basically an entire bunch of folks need to be in the system without becoming congress Bhakts...
Correct., at least 3 terms where in a 10 year old grows to 25 year in a congress mukt bharat. If that voter decides to bring back Congress, it is their choice.

That is why I call JLN the single biggest failure of Indian democracy. Once the constitution was in, he should not have stayed beyond the first term. Should have stepped down and become the "chairman emeritus" of the Indian democracy., ala George Washington.

At the end of the day, JLN proved himself to be a petty politician., sauve but petty. No different from a salt of the earth garden variety politician from a far corner of India.

And regarding "institution building"., there were several others who actually built the "institutions". Giving all credit to JLN basically proves my point that JLN did not let the democracy flourish.

Agree sir.

The JLN mythos credits him with everything and anything. In all the decisions that mattered - 1948, 1962, the manner in which actual Indian history was subverted, Indian economic governance...he was an abject disaster. Really the father of the dynasty that plagues us today. I stood in the sun on so many days as a school kid because congress bigwig was visiting, or because nehruji's birthday was to be feted. Our state sponsored propaganda would make Goebbels wonder. As kids we got three classes of supplementary reading on Gandhiji this, Gandhiji that...in Hindi and English both...our official history book had ten lines of corruption of the vedic system, caste etc and jumped straight to the Moghuls. Perhaps later boards improved. Only saving grace was these were all subjects most kids just mugged..but somewhere the hook remains of the G name as something to be auto respected.