Indian Naval Discussion

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10098
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 20 Aug 2013 20:44

X-post:
sum wrote:^^ Got this in e-mail from Ex-IN officer:


'Torpedoes are coolest place to sleep on'


Showers, shaves and sunlight are in short supply, but the thing that bothers submariners the most is lack of space. A boat — a submarine is always called that — is a narrow claustrophobic warren where young men (most of the crew is in their twenties) spend weeks on end, leading extremely structured lives. Danger is a constant companion as the men whose lives are now under arc-light as investigators seek answers to the mysterious blasts aboard INS Sindhurakshak found out.

Both within the navy and in public perception, s submariner doesn't have the glamour that, say a fighter pilot or commando has. Despite the criticality of submarines to its power projection and operations, the Indian Navy has had only one submariner as its chief ever, Admiral VS Shekhawat.

Life beneath the surface isn't for the faint-hearted. Just the dimensions of the tube are scary. An average nuclear submarine is about 80 metres long, 9.9 metres wide and about the same in height, not even enough for a sailor to stand straight.

An officer who has spent several years in a kilo class submarine like the INS Sindhurakshak says once you enter the submarine for a patrol "baths are forbidden". Patrol can stretch up to 45-50 days. "Shaving used to be a no-no," says an old-timer. However, in some of the modern submarines, crew is allowed the luxury of an occasional shave.

It's a dozen officers to one bathroom. Fresh water is rationed, and prioritized for cooking and maybe a mug for a person a day.

Once they enter the submarine, personnel are handed disposable clothes that are chemically treated and replaced every two or three days. Food is very basic — dal, roti or rice and one vegetable. Puris and paranthas are unheard of let alone any fancy dish.

It is common for sailors to lose their appetite after several days of sailing in a cramped submarine and irritation levels among the personnel generally goes high. "That is one of the key reasons why a doctor is a compulsory for any submarine sailing out," says another officer.

Like fighter pilots, submariners too get a special allowance. "But that is nothing compared to the hardship that one has to endure," one submariner said. Not that everyone on board loses their funny bone. Veterans joke about sleeping in the "bomb shop", where the missiles and torpedoes are kept. It is the quietest, most spacious room on the boat. "Many of us slept on torpedoes because it was among the coolest places in a sub," one recalled.

There aren't very many jobs in the world in which once you leave the shores there is almost no contact with near or dear ones. Not even if your father takes ill or the wife runs away. The only sure sign that a submarine out on a war patrol is safe is the regular signals it sends to a designated location, probably the war room at the naval headquarters in New Delhi.

As the Kargil conflict flared up in 1999, the same INS Sindhurakshak went on a war patrol, spending several hours and possibly days, just five miles from Karachi shoreline. The mission is considered as heroic because of the sheer proximity to danger.


Deep under the seas is a secret world, where the enemy could be silently following you. For submariners, the death that danced on INS Sindhurakshak early on Wednesday wasn't the way they would have wanted to sign off while on duty.

Regards,
xxxx


Is the bolded part about being just 5 miles from Karachi true?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54822
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 20 Aug 2013 21:25

We do know that IN was very proactive during Kargil and even the INS Dhanush with its naval Prithivi was deployed off shore TSP.
We also know the 21 Corps was moved in full view of US sats.

So it would have been a one-two punch which forced Badmash to run to Duplicity.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3478
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 20 Aug 2013 23:30

I doubt the 5 mile claim. Our surface ships were reportedly just outside the 12 NM limit ... from Karachi. Why would we go in any further?

Ajit.C
BRFite
Posts: 160
Joined: 10 Sep 2008 13:15
Location: Middle East
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Ajit.C » 21 Aug 2013 10:20

For surface ships they would not have crossed the 12 NM limit. But subs as long as they are underwater and undetected they can cross the limit same as the IAF Mig-25s flying over Paki territory.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3478
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 21 Aug 2013 11:59

Ajit.C wrote:For surface ships they would not have crossed the 12 NM limit. But subs as long as they are underwater and undetected they can cross the limit same as the IAF Mig-25s flying over Paki territory.


Point. But question is to achieve what end? MiG-25 flew over enemy land for photo reconnaissance ... or maybe even to provoke air defences for the Dorniers to ferret out the radar sites for example.

If Sindhurakshak entered Pakistani territorial waters, it must have a good reason to do so. What could that be? :idea: :wink:

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Aug 2013 12:44

probably to detect submerged agosta SSKs moving out on similar war patrol.
or in readiness to lay mines via its TT. it probably lay quietly in a controlled manner on the sea bottom, listening with passive sensors only.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 21 Aug 2013 12:50

Special Force Ops , Laying Listening Device , Gathering Intelligence , Surveying the Sea Bed for acoustic conditions .....could be any or none or more than this , we wont know .... Submarine Service are Silent Service.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54822
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 21 Aug 2013 19:56

AdityaG, Sum has stated he got the e-mail from an ex-IN officer. So do you know more to doubt his assertion?


Dont be a Amartya Sen poster boy for the sake of it.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3478
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 22 Aug 2013 21:51

ramana wrote:AdityaG, Sum has stated he got the e-mail from an ex-IN officer. So do you know more to doubt his assertion?


Dont be a Amartya Sen poster boy for the sake of it.


Now I know don't understand the reference to amartya sen. But I do believe this forums allows for thought and questioning.

harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby harbans » 22 Aug 2013 22:11

I think operational details of subs should be left out. No point in sharing a mail about such details. It's not open source for one. Such ops will be conducted many times in the future.
Last edited by harbans on 22 Aug 2013 22:55, edited 1 time in total.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54822
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 22 Aug 2013 22:31

Amartya Sen's Argumentative Indian.

Mihir
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 880
Joined: 14 Nov 2004 21:26

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Mihir » 22 Aug 2013 23:20

It's a Times of India article. It's unlikely that it has been written by an ex-IN officer.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... hter-pilot

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21053
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 23 Aug 2013 01:21

With ABV's insistence that the LOC was not to be crossed during Kargil,I am sceptical about the sub being 5nm from the Paki coast.The goal of the govt. of the day was to throw back the Pakis without widening the conflict.The well-publicised move of eastern fleet assets to the Arabian Sea was to put pressure upon the Pakis to withdraw or face a potential naval blockade or worse.According to info during that event,the PN was not geared up to go to war when Kargil erupted.Even at the end of the conflict they were reportedly able to have only limited assets operational.The IN however was in pole position to annihilate the PN.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 23 Aug 2013 02:32

I dont see why not. Crossing the LOC is a visible & verifiable act. A lurking sub isnt. They might have been operating under strict rules of engagement to avoid accidental escalation.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8100
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nachiket » 23 Aug 2013 02:37

Prem Kumar wrote:I dont see why not. Crossing the LOC is a visible & verifiable act. A lurking sub isnt. They might have been operating under strict rules of engagement to avoid accidental escalation.


How were they going to explain it to the PM if things had gone wrong? It couldn't have been worth the risk. The IN could have blockaded Karachi if they wanted too without a single ship or sub going that far into Pakistani waters.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 23 Aug 2013 03:11

I didnt say the IN did this of its own accord. What if the PM/CCS cleared it?

It might have been one of those black ops, whose true objectives will never be fully known. Perhaps the sub was there ahead of time, to support a blockade if it came to that. Perhaps it was on a snooping mission, given that we didnt have P8I planes back then. Who knows?

But we shouldnt conclude that the sub wasnt there simply because we didnt cross the LOC. The 2 acts have different levels of risk.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21053
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 23 Aug 2013 07:36

Bharat Karnad in the Ind.Exp. on our "Submarine Production".

http://newindianexpress.com/opinion/Ind ... 746951.ece

23rd August 2013 07:26 AM

The Sindhurakshak tragedy raises many issues, among them, the danger of close berthing of warships and submarines in the crowded Mumbai docks and the need urgently to commission the Karwar base to host most of the Western Fleet and take the pressure off Mumbai harbour and, given the dangerous depletion in submarine strength, the urgency to lease Kilo subs from, say, Vietnam, which has acquired six of them and whose submarine crews are being trained here, and move quickly on Project 75i — the supposed final step before full indigenisation of diesel submarine design and production.

Strangely, while the navy’s strategic-minded leadership has a firm grip on issues relating to surface combatants, confidence deserts them in in-country production of conventional submarines (SSKs). This is perplexing considering the expertise the navy has gained in designing, project management, and system integration in the programme to produce nuclear-powered submarines. As follow-on to the three Arihant-class ballistic missile-firing boats (SSBNs), a bigger, more advanced SSBN is in the pre-production phase, and a design for nuclear-powered hunter-killer submarine (SSN) is nearing firm-up.

The Navy’s plan was to learn from and absorb the best attributes of the western and Russian submarines and to gain from their differing design philosophies and manufacturing techniques, and to use them to come up with a wholly new design and indigenous production regime for a diesel hunter-killer submarine (SSK) to constitute the navy’s bulk sea denial force. The concept of parallel production lines realised with the selection of the HDW 209 German submersible quickly unravelled with the scam attending on that deal struck during the Indira Gandhi-imposed Emergency of the mid-’70s – a forerunner of defence scams that have blotted defence acquisitions. Its local production proceeded with the customary delays and cost-over-runs the defence public sector units (DPSUs) are habituated to until it was junked. The corpus of hard-gained production competence and industrial skills by the Mazgaon shipyard in disciplines like high-pressure welding to achieve micron tolerances, were thus wasted because successor governments, including those headed by the Congress party, distanced themselves from the taint of the original scandal. In the meantime, the Russian Kilos were acquired to fill the breach.

Some twenty years on another western submarine was chosen, Scorpene from France. A deal was finalised in 2006 by yet another Congress government and, once again, allegations of illegal payoffs surfaced. But just when the aspect of alongside production of a Russian boat came up and the Amur-class SSK identified as appropriate to the country’s needs, global tendering was introduced. Russia discovered it had to compete for the Project 75i contract with a number of western suppliers, and needed to provide incentives/sweeteners to surpass whatever the competition can muster. In the event, it has made a clever offer the Indian Navy cannot refuse and which consolidates its presence.

This offer is rumoured to have the following features: Russia will lease for $1.5 billion a second nuclear powered Akula SSN — Irbis, lying mothballed in Severodvinsk, to be delivered by end 2014; both INS Chakra and Irbis will be upgraded to Akula-III standard by incorporating the latest technology, including hull-mounted sensors to, for instance, detect thermoclines — thermal layers in the Indian Ocean that make sonar detection difficult and enable submarines to “hide” in them. These sensors will be retrofitted on the Arihant, and equip the two follow-on sister ships. Irbis SSN will moreover come equipped with the Shtil (Storm) *( Mistake here,the super-cavitaing torp. is the Shkval) torpedo (to also equip Chakra) that can close in on targets at uninterdictable speeds touching 280 knots, and a vertical launch system “plug” accommodating a mix of 40 K-15 land attack missiles and the first of the Indian submarine-launched K-4 ballistic missiles (SLBMs). It will in effect convert the Akulas from exclusively warship and submarine hunters into more versatile platforms able also to reach deep hinterland targets and take out littoral sites with land attack cruise missiles.

The new 75i design will boast of similar weapons profile with Indian naval designers and engineers invited to work alongside their counterparts in the Russian design bureau right from conception all the way to design and delivery stages, thereby enhancing the Indian Navy’s all-round skills and competence to handle submarine design and oversee submarine production generally. In the wake of the Sindhurakshak mishap, moreover, the additional safety of a double hull (permitting high reserve of buoyancy) and platform versatility enabling a single boat to carry out multiple missions — central to Russian design philosophy — have obvious appeal.

It is, in fact, the differences in the western and Russian design philosophies that have seriously divided the Directorate-General Naval Design-Submarine Design Group at the Naval Headquarters, stalemating for long the crucial decision on standardising the diving depth and delaying indigenisation. The differences persist, according to Vice Admiral K N Sushil (Retd), an experienced submariner and former head of the Southern Naval Command, who prefers the western single hull design, despite the fact that Western suppliers will not transfer sensitive technologies (such as optronic masts) or do a “lot of hand-holding” that diffident Indian production firms still require, that only the Russian are prepared to do.

The indecision has prevented, he maintains, the establishing of other standards such as for “the operating pressures of the hydraulics and high pressure air systems, pressure hull materials, weld normative, hydraulic and high-pressure air pipelines, manifolds, valves, etc.” common (to nuclear and conventional submarines) and deterred the build-up of local capacity. Were it otherwise, the “scale” of work would prompt investment in the latest tooling and other manufacturing wherewithal to produce different types of submarines by private sector companies, such as Larsen & Toubro, Tata, and Pipavav without whose participation fully indigenised production, Sushil believes, will languish at the elementary level of assembling from imported CKD (Completely Knocked Down) kits the DPSUs are stuck at. The under-utilisation of the more capable and efficient private sector, as the regressive-minded defence production department in the ministry headed by the leftist A K Antony would have it, means the country can kiss self-reliance in armaments Good Bye.

Bharat Karnad is professor at Centre for Policy Research and blogs at http://www.bharatkarnad.com


If the report about the Irbis/C-3 capabilitires are true,then we will possess absolutely cutting edge sub-tech.In an earlier post I mentioned the new universal VLS launcher developed for the Yasen class,which has a "revolver" magazine and can fire 5 different missile types from it. The C-3 is supposed to feature this same VLS system,plus the Shkval.If as BK says the same tech/systems are going to be retrofitted onto the C-2 and ATV class,then the IN will possess a quantum leap over the PRC in N-sub/sub building capability.

As a cost-effective measure,we should also acquire /build boats of the Amur class (single-hulled incidentally).Here is an assessment from a US journo."Russian sub fleet reborn".Excerpts in brief.

The Lada/Amur eclipses the "incredibly successful Kilo in every category".She is faster,lighter,...and may incorporate an AIP system.It would allow the sub to increase her submerged endurance from 15 upto to 45 days.To reduce manning,it uses a new automated combat system.
...For the low price of $300M,even a small nation with a single submarine operating off its shores can dramatically alter the strategic balance of a region.China (reportedly) has ordered 4 Amurs.

More on weaponry.
Shkval VA-111 has a speed "in excess of 200knots".The original design also incorporated a nuclear warhead as a carrier killer.
The Yasen's weaponry will include SS-N-26 Onyk (Russia's BMos) and SS-N-27 Klub.The capabilities of the Klub (Sizzler) missile are well known,with several variants,including the supersonic terminal warhead 3M54E,3M54E1 (subsonic),91-RE for anti-sub attacks,3m14E for land attack.The Sizzler sub-launched,can "likely defeat Western defence shields" through a series of protective measures,such as a sea-skimming cruise stage,combined with a warhead separation carrying out terminal attack at supersonic speeds.The Onyx (BMos) cruises at supersonic speeds to conduct sea-skimming anti-ship attacks upto 186 nm.One can imagine the already unmatched capability when hypersonic Brahmos is available!

Some interesting facts on the Yasen,she has 8 25.6 tubes for the above armament and a crew of only 90 in comparison toi the Virginia's 140.

From another BK blog,another lost opportunity and great danger to India from the PRC in the future as it will operate Backfires,which we've been screaming for for a decade now.It looks like the PRC/PLAN takes our views on BR more seriously than the GOI/MOD/services!

http://bharatkarnad.com/

Danger from Hong-10
Apart from helping realize the Chinese defensive/offensive design of using the Backfire in tandem with the Dong Feng-21D anti-ship ballistic missiles to attack US carrier groups, and force them out of the second island chain and push them to the line of the “third island chain” of the Hawaiian islands, the Tu-22 poses a mortal danger to India. The PLA will not anymore be hampered by the problems of embarking ordnance-loaded aircraft from the high-altitude air bases on the Tibetan plateau on attack missions. These can now be launched against even Indian peninsular targets from deep within the Chengdu MR.

It is a capability this analyst has been advocating IAF should have, but is something the determinedly sub-strategic-minded air force leadership has time and again passed up, preferring planes with lesser range instead. India was first offered Tu-22 in mid-1971 but the mission to Moscow under Air Marshal Sheodeo Singh chose the MiG-23 BN, despite a squadron of the Tu-22s with IAF roundels painted on them being parked at a military air base outside the city ready to fly to India. Worse, as I have detailed in my book “Nuclear Weapons and Indian Security”, IAF played dog in the manger and prevented the more strategically-oriented Indian Navy from acquiring this aircraft! India could have bought up the Tu-22 production line anytime in the last two decades — it being so offered by a cash-strapped Russia. It would have provided India with a manned option for strike sorties against targets in deepest China and anywhere in the extended Indian Ocean region. When, oh God!, when will our air force, operating in an open strategic medium acquire a strategic mindset?

srin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2033
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srin » 23 Aug 2013 08:34

Don't know what he is smoking, but Russia allowing either hull design modifications to install VLS (Yasen-class like !!) or allowing an SSN to be used as an SSBN is fairly improbable, and delivering a full-built and sea-trialled SSN by end of 2014 is impossible. And India agreeing to Russian SSBNs while it is building and trialling Arihant-class vessels is also improbable.

srin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2033
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srin » 23 Aug 2013 08:38

I'm not against bombers, but I don't quite understand the logic of China has bombers, so we need to one too. If Chinese are getting bombers and cruise missiles, then you need to have better SAM and better air superiority and interceptor fighters and better long range BVR missiles on those fighters.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16831
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 23 Aug 2013 08:46

I do not know what to make of that supposed Russian offer. Looks very enticing. But so did the Vicky offer when it first was floated. IF somehow India can tie them down - hold Putin hostage or the like (JK) - if they do not deliver then it makes sense. They have the ware and the brains, but somehow I just dot feel comfortable with them any longer. But that offer does look damn good to me. Dates? Another matter.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21053
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 23 Aug 2013 09:25

From various reports,7 Yasen class subs are being built/ordered,Expensive,costing about $3B.The expansion of the sub fleet is the priority .Hull sections for other subs which were shelved have reportedly been used to accelerate the SSBN (Borei) and SSGN (Yasen) platforms.The Bulava missile has been commissioned and the new universal VLS system is to be installed aboard all SSGNs.It has also been offered for the C-3,which will be an Akula-3 class sub.Here is an excerpt on the Yasen.

http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politic ... marines-0/

Fourth-generation multi-purpose submarine of Project 885 Yasen, Severodvinsk, was designed in St. Petersburg. The construction was started at Sevmash in 1993. The construction period took so much time due to economic difficulties and the introduction of fundamentally new design of the body and equipment of the submarine. The Severodvinsk was launched on June 15, 2010.

On the Severodvinsk, for the first time in Russian shipbuilding practice, torpedo tubes were located in the central, rather than in the nose part of the sub.

Eight vertical launchers were used for missile weapons. The complex of weapon includes supersonic cruise missiles, universal deep-homing torpedoes and mines. The sub was equipped with advanced communication and navigation systems and a fundamentally new nuclear power plant. The total displacement of the vessel makes up 11,800 tons. A Yasen project submarine can develop the speed of more than 30 knots; the crew counts 85 people.

Andrei Mikhailov

Pravda.Ru


The Q remains unanswered what is happening to line-2? Is the N-sub tech acquisitions part of a package deal for BMos+AIP Amurs or a stand-alone offer? Regardless of the N-sub deals,the conventional line is in dire straits ,esp. after the SR disaster.BK has also mentioned the poss. of leasing Kilos meant for Vietnam,of which the entire lot of 6 will be delivered within 3/4 years.

pragnya
BRFite
Posts: 728
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 18:41

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pragnya » 23 Aug 2013 09:51

philip,

As a cost-effective measure,we should also acquire /build boats of the Amur class (single-hulled incidentally).Here is an assessment from a US journo."Russian sub fleet reborn"


i too was thinking along the same line - viewtopic.php?p=1498114#p1498114 'but' it seems there are some 'design flaws' which has held up the progress.

At home, the Amur-1650 project is yet to be completed. Built as long ago as 1997 and commissioned in 2010, the pilot sub of this class, St Petersburg, is still in the process of testing. Design flaws discovered in it are holding up the construction of another two Amur-1650 subs, The Kronstadt and The Sebastopol. The government has given the Navy and its suppliers one year to fix these flaws.


Russian subs for Chinese Navy

note the report is pretty recent 21 dec 2012. the fixing of the problem will be minimum 1 year. however IMO, not possible if it is to address flaws with 'design' basic or otherwise. so it is non starter in the short term. even if fixed 3 years down the line, it does not make any sense as the scorpenes will start rolling out.

i for one would like P75I and P75 to be merged for a total of 12 + subs. while the six MDL is building should be extended to build more, as the infra would have been created along with skilled manpower, some scorpenes (2/3) may be directly procured from DCNS which ofc will not take care of the short term but atleast from 2015 onward we keep getting both the local and french ones to take care of the numbers needed.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 Aug 2013 10:05

Akula(equipped with VLS complex of Yasen) and Arihant would be overlapping in size and role though for time being until all 3 Arihants get inducted hopefully by 2020 we do need numbers .... but again when will Irbis be available...looking at the photo of Putin visiting the yard with Irbis in background certainly didnt look anything more than a hull with huge holes for fittings to be dropped in. not 2014 for sure.

Arihant being single hull, its probably better we double up on the production facility here and start churning out more n-subs than depend on any lease deals and such.

here allegedly is the unfinished Irbis (tail section) with Putin sir touring the facility
http://osimint.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Irbis.jpg

Khan has a surplus of 688I class subs...maybe we should ask them to lease us some 5 hunter-killer 688I each with 8 thawk tubes as a reward for our sickularism and accha baccha behaviour :lol:

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 23 Aug 2013 10:33

Singha wrote:Arihant being single hull, its probably better we double up on the production facility here and start churning out more n-subs than depend on any lease deals and such.


Arihant being single hull is very doubtful , The pictures released so far show limber holes which are open and free flooding an indication its double hull sub, unless the pictures are morphed

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/08/ ... 34x558.jpg

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 23 Aug 2013 10:37

Singha wrote:Khan has a surplus of 688I class subs...maybe we should ask them to lease us some 5 hunter-killer 688I each with 8 thawk tubes as a reward for our sickularism and accha baccha behaviour :lol:


Agree , US has surplus of 688I class submarine and we can definately lease 1-2 provided US is wiling to do so and also will be a test of our strategic partnership , Australia is considering few 688I subs from US.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 Aug 2013 11:48

that would be permitted for aus and a good VFM, with base repair outsourced to the US contractor who runs it in groton and elsewhere.

but I am sure they will shoot themselves accurately in the foot with a Soryu-A JV to develop domestic mitsubishi and kawasaki on the back of that per the PPT slides.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21053
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 23 Aug 2013 11:57

The Akulas is much larger than the ATV,at least 40%.It can carry upto 40 missiles and torps.What is being suggested is upgrading capability of the ATV class and C-3 by incorporating common advanced sensors and weaponry.Don't go by the looks of incomplete subs and their hulls.Russian subs have extremely tough hull sections,as we saw in the Kursk disaster .Do you know how the first US SSBN was built? Hull sections from 3 or 4 subs were cut and welded together to form the hull.Here is a good piece about how Russia's latest have parts which are 20 yrs. old! So modifying the Irbis with new sections to house the VLS silos will be nothing new.
Don't also forget that the US retd. SSBN,the Ohio was converted very successfully into an SSGN carrying dozens of cruise missiles in her ICBM silos.

http://barentsobserver.com/en/security/ ... pare-parts

New subs made of old spare parts

The Russian navy’s two newest nuclear-powered strategic submarines that are sailing the White Sea this autumn are partly constructed from near 20 year old hulls of non-finished smaller submarines.
By
Thomas Nilsen
October 27, 2011

The two submarines of the Borey class are the first new strategic submarines in the Russian navy since the last Delta-IV class submarine was commissioned in 1992. But, “Yuri Dolgoruky” and “Aleksandr Nevsky” are not totally new, Rossiskaya Gazeta reports.

When the construction of “Yuri Dolgoruky” started at the Sevmash yard in Severodvinsk back in November 1996, the shipyard simply took the unfinished hull of an unfinished Akula-class attach submarine and started the welding to enlarge it. The construction work on the hull for what was supposed to be an Akula-class was started four years earlier, in 1992, according to the list of submarines posted on Wikipedia.

The hull of the second Borey-class submarine “Aleksandr Nevsky” is also originally based on an older Akula-class submarine that was never finished. “Aleksandr Nevsky” sailed out on her maiden voyage in the White Sea last Saturday, reports Regnum.

The work on the hull of what was then supposed to be the “Lynx” Akula-class submarine started at the shipyard in Severodvinsk back in 1993 and then, 11 years later in 2004, the shipyard brushed off the dust of the hull and started to refit it to what is now “Aleksandr Nevsky.”

According to Rossiskaya Gazeta, the old block sections used to build the new Borey class submarines were the forward and rear end.

The construction of the third submarine of the Borei-class, "Vladimir Monomakh" started in 2006 and is today some 50 percent ready, reports Itar-Tass. According to the book Korabli VMF SSSR (Naval vessels of the USSR), published in St. Petersburg in 2003, also the third Borei-class submarine, named “Vladimir Monomakh” is originally based on a Akula-class hull from 1992.

It is not know if any of the other parts of the new submarines consists of spare parts from older submarines.


Check this link for a fuller picture of Russia's sub industry.

http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/ru ... -behavior/
Russia Submarine Import and Export Behavior

arijitkm
BRFite
Posts: 137
Joined: 12 Oct 2009 23:23

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby arijitkm » 23 Aug 2013 14:59

India, Russia Discuss Submarine-Building – Source

An Indian military delegation has arrived in St. Petersburg to discuss military-technical collaboration in submarine-building, a Russian defense industry source told RIA on Thursday, days after a Russian-made sub in India’s navy exploded.

“It is a routine meeting of a joint [Russian-Indian] working group that had been scheduled long before the explosion on the INS Sindhurakshak,” the source said on condition of anonymity. "The Indian delegation is headed by the Indian navy’s chief of material, Vice Admiral Nadella Niranjan Kumar."
........
According to the source, the agenda of the talks included the possibility of a second round of upgrading for India’s Kilo-class (Project 877 EKM) diesel-electric submarines, as well as Russian participation in the Indian tender for six new diesel-electric subs and other issues aimed at boosting the development of India’s submarine fleet.
........

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 Aug 2013 15:22

someone designed a 50,000 heavy Pandora class SSGN with lord knows how many klub cells..almost like sm2 on the dokdo too many to count
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6976/s ... andora.gif

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4066
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 23 Aug 2013 16:25

Singha wrote:Akula(equipped with VLS complex of Yasen) and Arihant would be overlapping in size and role though for time being until all 3 Arihants get inducted hopefully by 2020 we do need numbers .... but again when will Irbis be available...looking at the photo of Putin visiting the yard with Irbis in background certainly didnt look anything more than a hull with huge holes for fittings to be dropped in. not 2014 for sure.

Arihant being single hull, its probably better we double up on the production facility here and start churning out more n-subs than depend on any lease deals and such.

here allegedly is the unfinished Irbis (tail section) with Putin sir touring the facility
http://osimint.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Irbis.jpg

Khan has a surplus of 688I class subs...maybe we should ask them to lease us some 5 hunter-killer 688I each with 8 thawk tubes as a reward for our sickularism and accha baccha behaviour :lol:


consideration only for grade 1 munnas.. but mind u ..consideration onlee.. even they are not going to get it :mrgreen:

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4066
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 23 Aug 2013 16:27

Singha wrote:someone designed a 50,000 heavy Pandora class SSGN with lord knows how many klub cells..almost like sm2 on the dokdo too many to count
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6976/s ... andora.gif



wht the #$%$ is that ? with one of that u can lay siege to a country like uk !


pragnya
BRFite
Posts: 728
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 18:41

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pragnya » 23 Aug 2013 21:39

arijitkm wrote:India, Russia Discuss Submarine-Building – Source

According to the source, the agenda of the talks included the possibility of a second round of upgrading for India’s Kilo-class (Project 877 EKM) diesel-electric submarines,


the indian Kilos have all been upgraded very recently. what would be a second upgrade of them entail?? :roll:

as well as Russian participation in the Indian tender for six new diesel-electric subs and other issues aimed at boosting the development of India’s submarine fleet.


this does require attention i guess. what would be there to discuss abt sommething which is a global tender??

my feel is - in the context of sidhurakshak tragedy, IN's combat preparedness, India's own economic troubles - a cost/benefit/time analysis is working in favour (no surprise) of the russians. so expect Russia - India JV for Project 75I, similar (!) to FGFA, and cancellation of the global tender.

The discussion of the recent accident with Sindhurakshak may also be on the agenda, the source added.


possibly a replacement for the Kilo :wink: if the preliminary investigation points a finger at the russians.

Meanwhile, several Indian media outlets have speculated that the Indian navy may lease additional Kilo-class subs from Russia to maintain combat readiness of its submarine fleet.


inevitable given the situation GOI/IN find themselves IMO. that apart one more Akula class sub lease looks certain.

VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2394
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 24 Aug 2013 05:24

Indian Navy Requests New Patrol Aircraft
India’s Ministry of Defense (MoD) has issued a request for proposal for nine medium-range maritime reconnaissance (MRMR) aircraft for the Indian Navy, plus 38 anti-ship missiles. The Navy has taken delivery of the first of eight Boeing P-8I Poseidon jets, and Boeing Harpoon anti-ship missiles. Although the new RFP seems to encourage smaller, lower-cost airframes and weapons, its terms may limit the bids.

The RFP states the aircraft must fly a transit of 400 nm at 300 knots and patrol 400 nm for four hours at a height of 10,000 feet, configured with two missiles with a range of about 50 nm. The MoD has called for a pre-bid meeting with the vendors in early October to clarify queries. “It is confusing. Does the Indian navy want turboprops or jets?” asked one potential vendor.

The RFP was sent to eight potential vendors: Airbus Military (for the C-295 MPA); Alenia (for the ATR 72 MPA); Antonov (for an MPA based on the An-70); Boeing; Elta (for an MPA based on the Bombardier Q400); Lockheed Martin (for the SC-130 version of the Hercules); Saab (for the 340 or 2000 MSAs); and Embraer (for an EMB-145-based MPA).

It is believed that as an alternative to more P-8Is, Boeing could propose its maritime surveillance aircraft (MSA) with the recently identified Bombardier Challenger 605 as the platform. This has the same sensor suite as already carried by the P-8A Poseidon, but could offer lower operating costs. “As [they do] elsewhere in the world, price matters and capability matters…we are in discussions with a number of Asia-Pacific countries, and there are several customers interested in [the MSA’s] capabilities,” Chris Chadwick, president of Boeing Military Aircraft, said at the Paris Air Show in June.

Some in the industry have questioned the logic of the Indian Navy’s choosing the same platform for the MRMR as it did for the long-range requirement for which the P-8I was chosen. “Jets are not efficient doing patrol at low levels and dropping life rafts. Ideally, the navy needs three sizes of aircraft,” said an official related to manufacturing.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21053
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 24 Aug 2013 16:33

Pragnya,I think that the Sindhurakshak and one other Kilo upgraded along with it had some extra capability which was not there on the earlier upgraded Kilos.One report says that the upgrades were to 636 std. I'm not sure whether the earlier upgraded Kilos could also fire the land attack version of Klub.That needs to be ckd. out with details of the first upgraded sub.It may also be to extend the lifespan of the subs since we are in the "deep",pun intended with our sub inventory.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3478
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 24 Aug 2013 21:54

SPB's latest Solas Marine Interceptor .... 4 are based out of Kochi

T401
T402
T403
T404

Image

As as aside, it is heartening to see better security measures at navy events (and availability of better press photography at such events). The small boat on the left is probably operated by the coastal police. In other pics a chetak was also visible. Likely Coast Guard and smaller FACs were watching the outer perimeter.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21053
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 26 Aug 2013 18:18

Did it need a tragedy to get off one's backside? What about the other critical decisions regarding other items for the services pending for years?

This also beggars another Q.It is going to be 2012 before we get the last of the Scorpenes.It is also going to be a decade before we get the first 75I sub too! So what are we going to do in the meantime? The 6 Scorpenes with or without AIP (mostly) will be as an IN officer supposedly said,"will be obsolete by the time they're inducted".At 75% the price of a nuclear sub,they're also exceptionally expensive,non-AIP that too.Even if these 6 Scorpenes arrive by 2012,we will then have approx. only 12 conventional subs in service,and even the refitted/upgraded Kilos will be on their last legs,needing to be retired by 2015.In fact,by then the Paki conventional sub inventory which will be augmented by another 6 Chinese built AIP subs,will be equal too or larger than that of India .
One or two more Akulas will barely stem the tide.They cannot be at several places simultaneously in the IOR and Indo-China Sea.
We need to lease/acquire a few extra subs right now,preferably kilos from Russia,or request Vietnam for one or two of their new subs until ours are refitted or new subs built.

Submarine shock: Antony fast-tracks projects
Rajat Pandit, TNN | Aug 26, 2013,

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... ttarget=no

NEW DELHI: Jolted by the sinking of submarine INS Sindhurakshak, the government is finally undertaking a three-pronged strategy to ensure the country's weakening underwater combat arm is not blunted any further.

With submarines being critical for neutralizing hostile warships, laying offensive mine-fields and blockading enemy harbours, the aim is to retain the "combat edge" over Pakistan and maintain "dissuasive defence" against China.

Sources said defence minister A K Antony has directed that top priority should be given to maintaining the "health" of the existing 13 conventional diesel-electric submarines - 11 of which are 20-27 years old -- through "faster" life-extension, upgrade and maintenance refits.

The Navy can currently deploy just seven to eight of its 13 aging submarines, which includes nine Kilo or Sindhugosh-class vessels of Russian-origin and four HDW or Shishumar-class boats of German origin, as was first reported by TOI last week.

Second, there should be no more slippages in the ongoing construction of six French Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks (MDL) in Mumbai, under the Rs 23,562 crore programme called 'Project-75', which is already running four years behind schedule.

Most importantly, Antony has now asked officials to "expedite" the 30-year submarine building plan, which was approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) way back in July 1999 but has been stuck in the doldrums for years.

It envisaged induction of the first dozen submarines - six each under Project-75 and 'Project-75India' with foreign collaboration - by 2012. Another 12 submarines with "totally indigenous design" were to be inducted in the 2012-2030 timeframe. But 14 years later, Navy is yet to induct even one of the 24 planned submarines.

The "draft CCS note" for the long-delayed Project-75I, under which the six stealth submarines will be armed with both land-attack missiles and air-independent propulsion (AIP) for greater underwater endurance, is now finally ready. "The note will be sent to CCS for approval within a month or so," said a source.

The fresh CCS nod is needed because the over Rs 50,000 crore Project-75I will see the first two submarines being directly imported from the foreign collaborator to save time, while three will be constructed at MDL, and the sixth at Hindustan Shipyard (HSL) in Visakhapatnam. The earlier CCS clearance was for all six vessels to be constructed in India.

Since it will take a decade for the first submarine to roll out under Project-75I
, MoD is also stressing upon timely refits for ensuring operational availability of submarines. Two Kilo and two HDW submarines are stuck in prolonged "mid-life medium-refit cum upgrades" at HSL and Mumbai naval dockyard. Another two vessels are undergoing the relatively shorter "assistance maintenance" programmes. "One Kilo-class submarine, for instance, has been at HSL for several years," the source said.

The first Scorpene submarine, in turn, will now be delivered by November 2016. "MDL has assured MoD that one submarine will thereafter roll out every 10-11 months. All the six hulls are ready," he said.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 26 Aug 2013 18:29

one awaits with bated breath for the U216 or the Soryu-mki.

finalizing that to meet our RFP might need few more years....a production run of atleast 12 subs will be needed.

might actually be cheaper and better to product 6 more arihant sized n-boats

rajatmisra
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 59
Joined: 05 Feb 2010 10:16

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby rajatmisra » 26 Aug 2013 18:42

Why are private sector capabilities not being used? There are a few shipyards including from L&T that can produce scorpeone parallely, I am sure.

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 26 Aug 2013 18:43

Singha wrote:one awaits with bated breath for the U216 or the Soryu-mki.

finalizing that to meet our RFP might need few more years....a production run of atleast 12 subs will be needed.

might actually be cheaper and better to product 6 more arihant sized n-boats


Absolutely a better way to do it so it wont be done:). L&T et al already know how to turn out Arihant hulls, others know how to do the sonars and stuff, and BARC presumably can build more 80MW reactors till the cows come home, the class allows for SSGN duty (K-15s) and supposedly does torpedoes. What else do you need?

So I don't see what would stop it except that it is blindingly obvious. Which may the reason they don't go with it. We generally like to have tutti frutti.


Return to “Military Issues Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest