India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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rohitvats
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 23 Aug 2013 08:11

RajitO wrote:
rohitvats wrote:The b@stard has used only couple of lines of data points and weaved a whole unrelated article around it - article meant to do an 'equal=equal' between IA and PA and give some breathing space to UPA. He is proving to be an useful idiot to peddle government line by being fed particular data points.


But those are a couple of data points that are now in the public domain nevertheless. And in the CNN-IBN report that Swamy also filed, Mandeep Bajwa connects the dots...if they needed connecting in the first place.


Sorry, could not get it...can you elaborate? What did Mandeep say? Thanks.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_23455 » 23 Aug 2013 08:32

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/pakistan-special-forces-killed-5-indian-soldiers-at-loc-as-they-slept/416354-3-245.html

"If the infiltration is on low ebb in certain areas or certain times, then the troops tend to take it easy. Therefore, you need to exercise greater supervision and greater vigilance," said military expert Mandeep Bajwa.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby KrishnaK » 23 Aug 2013 10:15


First time in the television history, Chinese troops were caught on tape intruding in the Indian space at Indo-China border near Taiwan in Arunachal Pradesh.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vaibhav.n » 23 Aug 2013 10:27

Very Intriguing!! :-? Things don't add-up.

Posts beyond the fence are generally used during summer months when the rush is at its peak, additionally these are used as observation and for last light (Link-up Patrols).

Guard Duty is changed every two hours even at Company Level Op bases, on a standalone post at half a section strength these changes would be more frequent i would imagine.

Ideally you would want the ambush to be conducted sited on open ground, the geographical area around Poonch Region supports this (low lying hillocks with dense undergrowth and fair tree cover), raiding a built in structure unnecessarily raises the risk profile when they had no way of knowing how many troops inside were asleep and had hard cover once the firing started. However if they were indeed shot at extremely close range then this though improbable as would point fingers at the SSG squarely.

Why leave the guard alone, they are the first to be targeted.

All conjecture at this time.
Last edited by vaibhav.n on 23 Aug 2013 11:21, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sum » 23 Aug 2013 11:09

KrishnaK wrote:

First time in the television history, Chinese troops were caught on tape intruding in the Indian space at Indo-China border near Taiwan in Arunachal Pradesh.

What am i watching?
Is this some pappi-jhappi session where Hindi-Chini bahi bhai are hugging each other and mouting "take it easy" all the time?? :-?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vishvak » 23 Aug 2013 11:13

On one hand there is requirement of officers. On other hand we don't mind sending jawaans to deal with barbarians who infiltrate just to kill anything. This is a very abnormal situation where we consider abnormal borders more like police outposts outside a village perhaps - but even animals are not greedy unlike bloodthirsty warmongrels. The border posts should be part of bigger on-the-ground management that shields jawaans facing barbarians and offering tight oversight.

Come to think of it - jawaans are already doing all this. So why not manage it well too? Such as adding wooden pointed sets - ala European middle age construct - around posts to retard entery at a distance to avoid no manual access from the other side; another layer of big guns behind posts -leveraging height of mountains and managed in parallel and controlling access exclusively; on Arunachal Pradesh borders there could be village defense committee members to take care of intruders directly; creating scarecrows on the border with two eyes and a stick each; there could be many levels of approach provided.
Last edited by vishvak on 23 Aug 2013 11:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aaryan » 23 Aug 2013 11:24

Indians are were going for Man to Man marking, and the chinks uniform looked better suited for mountain( ice) warfare..

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 24 Aug 2013 00:13

Aaryan wrote:Indians are were going for Man to Man marking, and the *deleted* uniform looked better suited for mountain( ice) warfare..


The terrain was green. Our camo was better.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 24 Aug 2013 01:58

Vipul wrote:Intelligence inputs ignored with fatal fallout on LoC.

n the din over the government’s flip flop over the Pakistani Army killing five Indian soldiers last week was lost the fact that the Indian Army had ignored Intelligence warnings and patrolling protocols as the jawans ventured out to guard the five-km stretch of the 778-km Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir. An initial Army probe has discovered that Intelligence agencies recently intercepted important conversations suggesting the BAT (Border Action Team) units of the Pakistani Army’s border battalions would carry out attacks on Indian security forces, which was shared with the Indian Army in July, sources said. The commanding officers—21 Bihar battalion Commanding Officer Col C S Kabsuri, under whose command the patrol team operated; 91 Infantry Brigade commander Brigadier S K Acharya, who is Kabsuri’s immediate boss and Acharya’s boss and 25 Infantry Division commander Major General V P Singh—are in the gunsights of a Court of Inquiry probing the incident. So is the Nagrota-based 16 Corps commander Lt Gen B S Hooda who commanded these officers.

The Court of Inquiry will go into how the team prepared to go about their patrol, the sequence of events leading to the ambush, and what Indian forces did after the attack,” a senior Indian Army officer said. “Initial information shows that there were gaps in the manner the patrol team and their commanders followed Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs),” said an Army source. He said the unfortunate team was not expecting an attack and was not careful enough to look out for the intruders. The Pakistani specialist troops operation had resulted in the death of five of the six soldiers, while the sixth, Sepoy Shambhaji Kute was injured. He is the only eyewitness from the Indian side and at present, and is recuperating at a military hospital in Jammu region.

Intelligence sources said that last week’s attack was planned 15 days in advance. The Indian patrol team’s movement from Begum to Cheetah posts and their state of alertness were monitored for several days before the actual operation using the cover of darkness was executed on Tuesday.

Apart from technical interception, there were telltale signs of cigarette butts and tea packs in the area, suggesting the aggressive movement of ISI spotters close to the border regions. Our forces were warned to remain vigilant,” a source said. However, those warnings seemed to have been largely ignored. The patrol team and its commanders are being faulted for “not expecting the worst” from the Pakistani side, despite intelligence agencies cautioning them of an attack along the LoC. They were also warned about ceasefire violations by Pakistani regulars to provide cover for terror infiltrations, which has increased by 80 per cent this year than last year.

After Army Chief Bikram Singh’s visit to the LoC following the killings, a Court of Inquiry under a Brigadier has been instituted to list flaws and gaps in the SOPs issued to all border-guarding Army units and to suggest remedies to ensure the troopers follow them in letter and spirit,General Singh rushed to Nagrota first near Jammu and then to Akhnoor, about 30-km away from the LoC, to meet with the officers in charge on August 7. They gave a presentation to explain the sequence of events as happened at the border. The meeting took place at a military station in Akhnoor, after General Singh’s attempt to reach the Brigade headquarters at Poonch failed due to bad weather.


This sort of naming and shaming is very unusual, as was the immediate hatchet job post the beheadings of it being linked to some grandma issue and a MLI commander was similarly named.

This time, first comes this report, then the claims the soldiers were sleeping (as if it were their fault the attacks happened, as versus the point that nobody had any business coming into the indian side), plus now the reports of the chief taking stock of the errant leaders.

What message is this supposed to send our soldiers? They are being blamed for the attacks by Pakis?

Add Nalapat and even Karnad's comments that Gen Bikram Singh is a very political general (speak tough, say the opposite privately) and Nalapat openly mentioning what many suspected that the PM MMS is preventing harsh measures in his quixotic pursuit of Pakistani bhaichara, and that aggressive commanders are being censured...

It does not make for pleasant reading. This govt is not good for national security at all.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohankumaon » 24 Aug 2013 11:52

Code: Select all

Myanmar army enters Manipur, stakes claim to border village

After China, it is the turn of Myanmar to give India the blushes. Myanmarese troops crossed the border in Moreh on Thursday and are now prepared to set up a temporary camp at Holenphai village in Manipur's Chandel district, claiming that the area lies within their country. The Assam Rifles, which is guarding the India-Myanmar border, is yet to issue any official statement on the development.

Assam Rifles jawans have intensified patrolling in the Holenphai area since the intrusion of the Myanmarese army, a source said.

This comes at a time when the Manipur government has decided to set up a committee to review the India-Myanmar border fencing work in Chandel district, considering the public furore over it. The ongoing 10-km border fencing work taken up in Chandel has kicked up a storm with various social organizations and opposition parties saying that a large chunk of land will fall in neighbouring Myanmar by the exercise.

Manipur shares a 398-km border with Myanmar.

Taking serious note of the intrusion by the Myanmarese army, the state government has intimated the matter to the Centre, a source said.

The Myanmarese army has initiated the ground work for setting up a temporary platoon base camp at Holenphai village, located 3 km south of Moreh police station close to international border pillar number 76, said village authorities. Incidentally, the state government has already prepared to develop a new township at Holenphei to boost the ongoing Indo-Myanmarese commercial activities.

Taking into account the report made by Lalkholun Haokip, chief of Holenphai, Moreh additional deputy commissioner (ADC) Robert Singh Kshetrimayum, along with two police officers, rushed to inspect the site on Thursday.

The Myanmarese troops were found clearing the ground for setting up their temporary base camp, a source said, adding that Manipur officials called the CO of Myanmar Army's 87 Light Infantry to get his response. The ADC then pursued the Myanmarese CO with a request to halt the work until a final settlement is reached by higher authorities of the two countries.

Pointing out that the area is 10 metres away from the border pillar, the ADC also urged the Myanmarese officer to meet his Assam Rifles counterpart stationed at Moreh town.

The Myanmarese CO told the Moreh ADC that Holenphai falls within Myanmar territory for which they are setting up a camp within its territory. He said unless instructed otherwise by his higher authorities, he will halt work.

When contacted, an Assam Rifles officer said the matter has not been brought to the notice of the paramilitary force.


TOI report - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 021861.cms

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_20296 » 24 Aug 2013 12:33

I feel it is difficult to understand how a country can have 2 sets of responses for border incursions one for the western border and the other for the eastern border.

I saw chinese incursion video at TOI those shameless lot are running into our side and our govt has clipped wings of our braves.. nobody will do such a nonsense if they are sure of being treated with bullets.

Start with Myanmar Nepal Bhutan and Bangladesh firm up border with trench and fence and the onward press it on Chinese border coupled with new mountain division deployment.

Progress may be slow and painful but do it. Irritate Chinese by coordinated pressure on all their sides to gain progress.

All janata can help by keeping kongrasss away from power.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sum » 26 Aug 2013 10:37

Found an old article on Op.Sarp Vinash by our current BRF darling, P.Swami. Lots of interesting details:
J&K: Operation Sarp Vinash - The Army Strikes Hard

Harkat-ul-Jihad-e-Islami (HuJI) terrorist Muhammad Amin Sajid's diary provides interesting insight into how terrorists in Surankote actually functioned. Sajid, who lived in the Madrassa Jamia Ashrafia in Pakistan's Okara district, maintained a record of contributions from various groups for common expenses, like guides, porters, supplies and medicines. The Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), Harkat-ul-Jihad-e-Islami, al-Badr and Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) all made contributions to Sajid's central fund. Other diaries record the deaths of comrades in Afghanistan, with one entry recording the death of a terrorist code-named Butshikan, or idol-destroyer, in Osama bin Laden's Tora Bora complex. Interestingly, Indian troops encountered one elaborate cave defence at an altitude of 3,989 metres, which was eventually destroyed with the use of helicopter-fired air-to-ground fragmentation missiles.

Other diaries, interspersed with Islamist slogans attributed to the Afghan warlord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, show the presence of a crude counter-intelligence apparatus. It records the execution of 10 'spies' whose throats were slit after they allegedly 'betrayed' jihadis to Indian forces between May 1999 and July 2002. The list includes two women and three children. Such killings of Muslim villagers, mainly from the Gujjar community, are common in Rajouri and Poonch, and have continued through the Sarp Vinash period. Five villagers were shot dead at Keri Khwas, near Rajouri, on March 25, and another six were slaughtered at Kot Dhara, near Darhal. Many of the killings can be traced to wholly non-military origins, pegged around land and resource conflict between Gujjars, Rajput Muslims, and ethnic-Kashmiri migrants.

An elaborate communications structure built around portable satellite phones allowed terrorists to communicate on their handlers with Sialkot, Muzaffarabad, Kotli, Islamabad, Abbotabad, as well as sympathisers across India - calls were made to Uttar Pradesh, Gujarat, Tamil Nadu and Kerala. One photograph recovered from a killed terrorist showed him posing in front of the Parliament House in New Delhi. Since the satellite phone systems used by the terrorists are of a type which uses a gateway in Pune to transmit signals, it is possible Indian intelligence knew of the signals traffic for some length of time, and was content to allow it to be generated. Elaborate codebooks for radio-frequency communications were also found.


The problem has been that offensives in the high mountains have rarely been well thought through or sustained. Helicopter-borne operations were attempted in Wadwan during the winter of 2000, but the lack of an infantry presence meant that all troops eventually found was one empty Kalashnikov magazine. In 1999, the entire 8 Mountain Division was pumped into Kupwara's Rajwar forests. Again, lacking intelligence support and planning, the grandiose operation, code-named Operation Kaziranga, succeeded in finding just one dead body in its first two weeks. In the summer of 2000, company-strength pickets were put up in Wadwan, and on the Margan pass into Kishtwar. The mainly defensive positions killed no terrorists, and were burned down when troops withdrew at the onset of winter - sending a clear message to local residents about who was boss.

It is silly to blame small Army units in the mountains for failing to operate aggressively, as the media often does. Consider, for example, the case of Kishtwar. The district of Doda sprawls across 11,678 square kilometres, only a few hundred square kilometres less than the entire Kashmir valley. Over 60 per cent of this area is made up of the single tehsil of Kishtwar, which, in turn, divides equally into four major valley systems. The northern valley systems of Wadwan and Marwah were protected by just one battalion, and a single company traditionally sent to Wadwan in the summer was pulled out in 2001, enabling a massive escalation in terrorist violence. The offensive operations carried out that year have had no subsequent follow-up - and now, the Nagrota-based 16 Corps is considering a series of Sarp Vinash-style operations in this part of its domain.



Much of the credit for the success in Poonch goes to the new commander of the Romeo Force, Major-General Hardev Lidder. Lidder, sources disclose, was appalled to find that the Romeo Force, charged with counter-terrorist operations in Rajouri and Poonch, just wasn't spending enough time on the heights. Helicopter pads to supply troops in the mountains, as well as minor roads, were constructed in the winter to improve mobility. Then, without fanfare, troops of the 9 Para-Commando Regiment were tasked to take on a major bunker on Peak 3689-metres in Hill Kaka, after helicopter surveillance flights picked up large numbers of footprints through the snow leading to a single complex. Thirteen terrorists were shot dead in the operation, the largest single success recorded in the course of the ongoing operations.

As terrorists groups scattered into the Pir Panjal, more troops were called in to saturate the ground, and disrupt their movement routes. The 6 Rashtriya Rifles was joined by the 163 Brigade and the 100 Brigade, pulled off duties on a new second counter-infiltration ring along the Line of Control. The major offensive axis, as the operation evolved, were Thanamandi on the Rajouri-Poonch border, where a welter of killings of civilians had recently taken place, Hari Buddha, Marhot, Hill Kaka, and the Bufliaz forests near Surankote. Troops from the 15 Corps were also pulled in to block routes from Saujian and Loran in northern Poonch, across the Pir Panjal into Tangmarg and Shopian in the Kashmir Valley. It is unclear just how successful these efforts, unlike the initial strike, have been, but large scale terrorists groups have clearly been dislocated and their logistics routes disrupted.


Lidder's most important contribution, perhaps, was to breach the unstated ban the Army has placed on the use of air power in counter-terrorist operations. Apart from the use of air-to-ground missiles, Cheetah helicopters fitted with heavy machine guns were used on several occasions. The use of such weapons was made possible by restrictions on Gujjar herdsmen, which barred them from using traditional high-altitude summer pastures, thus excluding the possibility of civilian casualties. It seems probable that terrorists will now seek to bring down helicopters, and it will be interesting to see how Indian forces respond to such an escalatory move. Operation Sarp Vinash also used technologies just starting to disperse through the ranks of Indian infantry formations, like portable ground radar and night-vision devices, to considerable effect.

Which air-to-ground missiles are talked of?

Sarp Vinash has shown that innovation, intelligence and enterprise do work. The problem is that this has been repeatedly demonstrated over the past decade: only to be forgotten the morning after.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 26 Aug 2013 19:18

sum wrote:Found an old article on Op.Sarp Vinash by our current BRF darling, P.Swami. Lots of interesting details:
J&K: Operation Sarp Vinash - The Army Strikes Hard

.....

Which air-to-ground missiles are talked of?

....


Swami was highly critical of Sarp Vinash in his later pieces.

The air to ground action consisted primarily of a Mi-17 taking out a high altitude sangar Kargil style. The weapon was likely to be 57 MM rockets. Armed Cheetahs in the Lancer guise have also been around though I am not aware of any specific instance of them being used for armed support.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 26 Aug 2013 22:25

Talked to a retired IA affasr last weekend. He had served in Poonch for many years. He says the border is heavily mined and has many trenches. Quite surprising that the attack resulted in so many dead. He says most likely it was a new unit retund from NWFP deployment (hence frustrated) and wants to show its ferocity by attacking Indian patrols. Says IA knows when a new unit is rotated on their side and vice versa.
He says its an ambush as the attackers were in uniform so they are covered by Geneva. An odd thing he says is Pakis susually keep their retired regulars in the irregular/Mujheddin units attached to each serving unit. Keeps the trained personnel from being wasted in the rural civilian life. So all are TSPA folks serving or not.


Regardless IA should have been aware of the changes on their side and be on alert. Too many attacks taking place for the morale. About L70/40 usage. Says IA is quite innovative in usage of their gear -L70 used due to lack of precision stand-off weapons. But then L70 shell is very cheap and looks like it did its job.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 28 Aug 2013 04:34

ramana wrote:Talked to a retired IA affasr last weekend. He had served in Poonch for many years. ...


Regardless IA should have been aware of the changes on their side and be on alert. Too many attacks taking place for the morale.


In the past we hit back fast and effectively. Now with MMS in charge, the IAs hands are shackled. Waiting for the day this Pak loving PM is kicked out in 2014, one way or the other unlikely he will return. India has suffered enough thanks to his greed, and pathetic belief system.

About L70/40 usage. Says IA is quite innovative in usage of their gear -[b]L70 used due to lack of precision stand-off weapons. But then L70 shell is very cheap and looks like it did its job.


As I had surmised in another post. Seriously, its gross negligence or deliberate intent to have kept the firepower requirements of the IA at a limited level. Perhaps to prevent them from being too Cold Start capable. The IA will find a way around though.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 30 Aug 2013 01:10

A mish mash article on the recent LOC ambushes and need for PMO to talk.

Not the time for sabre rattling

Not the time for sabre-rattling
Thursday, 29 August 2013 | Pravin Sawhney | in Oped

It makes sense for the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan to talk despite the grave provocations of the Pakistani Army along the Line of Control. If New Delhi does not engage Nawaz Sharif now, Rawalpindi will gain the upper hand and continue to trouble us :?:

Did India respond appropriately to Pakistani Army’s recent ceasefire violations on the Line of Control or should it have done something more or different, is the question at the heart of both bilateral relations between India and Pakistan and India’s possible foothold in Afghanistan after 2014.

Let’s start with the recent killing of five soldiers on the LoC in Poonch by Pakistani troops. This was preceded by the beheading of a soldier in the same area and followed by regular ceasefire violations along the entire LoC. When the soldiers were brutally murdered, Parliament was in session. The Chief of Army Staff, General Bikram Singh, reportedly air-dashed to Poonch to get a first-hand account. A court of inquiry into the incident was ordered.

Preliminary investigation suggested that the killed soldiers who were on night patrol had fallen asleep. Meanwhile, Union Minister for Defence AK Antony first obfuscated the matter in Parliament but then was forced to accept that the Pakistani Army was behind the dastardly act. The opposition parties led by BJP pressed the Government to explain why talks with the newly-installed Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif planned for September on the sidelines of a UN Security Council session in New York should be held under these circumstances. The Government under pressure finally announced that summit-level talks with Pakistan are off the table. During the unfolding of the above narrative, the media went hysterical with high decibel breast-beating.

As the crisis underscored two aspects on the LoC — ceasefire violations and killing of soldiers — these should be put into perspective. There is a marked difference between ceasefire violations and ceasefire being called off. The first is a tactical matter to be handled by the Commanding Officer (Colonel) of the unit on LoC where ceasefire violations have happened. The second is a strategic or national issue of concern because the 10-year-old ceasefire on the LoC starting November 26, 2003, is as good as over. What differentiates the two is whether artillery or gunfire was used. Small arms and mortar fire are violations of ceasefire, while gunfire which is the deadliest of land-based firepower implies burial of ceasefire agreement. After artillery fire, it can only be air fire, which would be an all-out war. With the Army Headquarters having confirmed that artillery was not used by either side, it is clear that the Pakistani Army had no intention of engaging itself on the second front with the Afghanistan front approaching criticality.

Once this is understood, two questions arise for the COAS: Did he explain the crucial difference between ceasefire violations and ceasefire going up in smoke, to the political leadership? If he had, the Government surely would have told the nation why ceasefire violations and talks with Mr Nawaz Sharif are different issues. Not talking with Mr Sharif is playing into the hands of the Pakistani Army, which employs militants as its first line of offence. Talking with Mr Sharif would not have delivered spectacular results like the pending ‘Most Favoured Nation’ status to India, but three advantages would have accrued: There would have been an added pressure on Mr Sharif to wrest Pakistan’s India policy from the Army; formal talks for improving bilateral relations through confidence-building measures would have commence; and people-to-people contacts will not have got strained.

Most importantly, India and Pakistan talking to each another would have helped Afghan President Hamid Karzai to work out a trilateral relationship post-2014, resulting in a genuine Afghan-led dispensation in Kabul. Mr Karzai had hoped that with India having signed a strategic partnership in 2011 and invested over two-and-a-half billion dollars in Afghanistan in the last 12 years, he could get lethal arms from India to strengthen his Army against the Taliban onslaught. This would have assisted him to talk reconciliation with Taliban from a position of strength. Both things have not happened. It is thus a weak Mr Karzai who recently visited Pakistan seeking Mr Sharif’s help for peace talks with the Taliban, who, unfortunately, are not under his control but live under the Pakistani Army’s patronage. This is the strategic gain made by the Pakistani Army by ceasefire violations on LoC: It wins; India, Mr Sharif and Mr Karzai lose.

The other question is why did the COAS rush to Poonch when he could have got the ground-report faster sitting in his South Block office? By going there, the COAS reduced himself to a tactical level leader, and also demonstrated scant faith in the Army’s chain of command. What good are so many one to three star officers in Jammu & Kashmir if the COAS had to go and personally debrief the sole surviving soldier? Media reports said that the COAS went there to order field commanders to respond aggressively.

If true, why are the Army personnel on the military-held line defensive, and will the Army chief’s mere telling them to become aggressive be enough? The answer to this query will be what the Army wants. Does it want a quick-fix or it desires to remove the deep malaise which has penetrated the Army’s soul and threatens its being?

Reports indicate that the Army has gone for the easy way out. The ordered court of inquiry into the killings will pinpoint blame; the commanding officer of the unit which lost soldiers will be pronounced unfit for further promotion; his immediate seniors will draw flak; and a few other routine measures will be taken for public consumption.

Unfortunately, the larger picture will remain untouched because the Army will not take the required four actions: First, dismantle the fence on the LoC which instills a defensive mindset. Second, get back to its primary task, which is to prepare for war. Third, progressively hand over counter-insurgency tasks in Jammu & Kashmir to paramilitary forces and State police. Fourth, senior officers should resist the temptation to offer Army services for running the civil administration in their stations.

This is done to endear themselves to the political and civil leadership. The cost is an overstretched and tired force. It is, therefore, not surprising that the soldiers were napping on the LoC when they were attacked by the Pakistani Army.

(The writer is a former Indian Army officer and now Editor, FORCE, a newsmagazine on national security)



Some assumptioins on his part but basically lays out the situation.

It is GOI that does not want to supply arms to Karzai to please the US.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 01 Sep 2013 13:55

ramana wrote:<SNIP>

Some assumptions on his part but basically lays out the situation.

It is GOI that does not want to supply arms to Karzai to please the US.


ramana,

The article by PS is typical of his writings over last couple of years. Each article has lost of data points which are somehow linked through a convoluted logic. I must admit that of all reporters covering strategic affairs, he digs the deepest and gets the most fundamental aspect of debate - but blows it when it comes to piecing them together. He analyzes too much.

Some counter-points to the above article:

1. The basic premise of the article wrests on difference between Cease Fire Violation and CF suspension. Any violation is an aberration and does not have a pattern to it. The recent incidents on the LoC over last 12 months are anything but aberrations - there is a method to the madness. Also, while earlier CF violations were understood in context of pushing terrorists across the border, some of the actions over last 12 months have no such characters.

It is almost as if a version of 'low-intensity-conflict' is being played out on LOC - where actions are being calibrated by PA to keep them below the threshold level of inviting strong Indian response. And mind you, when I talk about strong Indian response, it is not the Indian Army I'm talking about - but the response from GOI. Take for example the recent incident of ambush - but for the news leaking to the media and hue & cry raised by the BJP and other opposition parties, nothing would have come of it. We now know that any strong response from IA for earlier beheading by PA was stymied by directive from the GOI.

You cannot ascribe any tactical or strategic military aspect to the beheading of Indian soldiers or the recent ambush. These were very well planned actions meant to achieve a specific objective (which we will discuss later). So, to call these deliberate and targeted actions by Special Forces with no tactical military objective as 'violation' is a grossly wrong reading of the situation.

Short of using artillery, PA seems to gearing towards using all available means to liven up the LOC and create tension and conflict along it. And their actions speak for it. They are working as per a bigger plan and we're reacting piecemeal to it. This is the same paradox as obtained on LAC in east - we've official a Cease Fire in place but the calibrated incidents are staged to keep the pot-boiling. In absence of a coherent policy or objective, we'll end up on the loosing side.

2. Nawaz Sharif and PA - the eternal debate about 'strengthening the hands of PA and fundamentalists' in Pakistan. It assumes that Sharif has desire to reign his army in context of India. For all the issues he has with the PA, I don't think he disagrees with them when it comes to India and Kashmir related policies. Pakistanis seem to have perfected this art of asking the other party to compromise it's self interest for the sake of democracy and associated BS. The net loser is India in all this - our PM is already sold on to this idea as it the general intelligentsia.

Also, a PL with its base only in Punjab and which has benefited from its relationship with organizations such a S-e-S and LeJ cannot be seen to be going soft on Kashmir or any such Jihad cause.

3. India-Afghanistan-Pakistan: This is where he seriously looses the plot. I mean, Karzai able to leverage peace talks between India and Pakistan to get a 'favorable' Taliban dispensation in Afghanistan? Seriously? What has he been smoking? Even if India gave Kashmir on platter to Pakistan, it would not compromise its interests in Kabul. And NS has no powers and leverage over PA/ISI to influence them over Kabul developments.

Rest of his article is nonsense about fence and all that.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 03 Sep 2013 21:21

X-post on the recent retaliation from Indian Army.....

wig wrote:Pak moves artillery guns to LoC opposite Mendhar

Pakistani troops opened fire in Mendhar and Balakote sectors on Friday night from 11.15 pm to 3 am and in Saujiyan area from 4 am to 4.15 am; the Indian Army gave an equal response

Pakistani troops again opened fire in Pallanwala area of Akhnoor sub division on friday night injuring soldier Amit Singh of 28 Rajputana Rifles, reports said.

and further,

On the lines of what they did in Kargil War in 1999, the Pakistan Army has adopted an aggressive posture moving artillery guns along the Line of Control (LoC) opposite Mendhar sector in Poonch district, 230 km northwest of Jammu.

“We have observed artillery movement opposite Mendhar sector. While an artillery battery usually comprises six guns, they (Pak Army) have certainly moved two to three artillery guns opposite Mendhar,” said a senior Army officer.

So far, Pakistan had been using battalion level weapons -- small arms fire and automatics, including rocket propelled grenades and mortars (82 mm) -- drawing similar response from the Indian side, he said.

Though the artillery has not been used by them till now, but possibility of using it (following artillery movement opposite Mendhar) cannot be ruled out, he said. The officer said the use of artillery amounts to war. “We are keeping a constant watch on developments unfolding on the other side and accordingly devising our strategy,” he said.

Heavy shelling by Pak troops in June last year had forced India to eventually move an artillery battalion from Mendhar to the Krishna Ghati sector but it was never used. The stand-off ended only after a Brigade-commander level meeting that paved the way for the resumption of the trans-border trade and travel via Chakan-da-Bagh.

The officer also said that senior officers of the Pakistan Army in the past couple of days have conducted aerial and ground recce on the other side of the LoC opposite Poonch, Saujiyan, Mendhar and Hamirpur belts in Poonch sector.

Since August 8, the Indian Army has destroyed 15 Pakistani posts and several bunkers opposite Poonch, Mendhar and Hamirpur areas with weapons such as mortars, rocket launchers and automatic weapons, including anti-material guns.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2013/20130901/main6.htm

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vasu raya » 03 Sep 2013 22:18

In the context of LoC ceasefire violations where artillery is used, instead of counter battery fire why not use the HEAT drone below on a one way mission? either they lose a gun or will have to target it with a SAM or AAM both of which are an expensive option, all during peacetime. if they use their Amraams originally meant for the 'Taliban airforce' thats even better, we get to test the Amraams engagement profile as well. This HEAT drone is fast enough to outmaneuver man portable SAMs. They violate the ceasefire on LoC we violate their airspace with these HEAT drones.

DRDO developing high-speed target drone Abhyas

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 18 Sep 2013 18:13

Data points ...

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed ... 23869.aspx

Image

Targeting forward posts and civilian areas along the India-Pakistan border, Pakistan has violated the ceasefire 96 times this year, the highest in the last eight years.

"There were 18 ceasefire violations by Pakistan in September, bringing the total number of violations to 96 this
year up to September 18," defence spokesman SN Acharya said here on Wednesday.

Set to complete a decade of its existence in November this year, the 2003 India-Pakistan ceasefire has been violated by Pakistan several times over the years.

This year, Jammu and Kashmir's Line of Control (LoC) and International Border in Poonch sector and Jammu frontier have seen heightened activity with firing by Pakistani troops, BAT attacks and sniping incidents on Indian forward posts on an almost daily basis since August 6.

Six jawans were killed, while six security personnel were among 14 persons injured in firing by Pakistan troops on forward posts, civilian areas and patrolling parties along the border during August this year.

There were 93 ceasefire violations by Pakistan along the LoC in Jammu and Kashmir last year, according to figures revealed by defence minister AK Antony in Lok Sabha in March.

Five people, including three security personnel were killed and 13 others, including 10 security men, injured in the border incidents of firing and ceasefire violations last year.

Pakistan violated the ceasefire agreement with India on 44 occasions in 2010. The corresponding number was 51 in 2011.

Two Indian Army personnel were killed during the violations in 2010 and one was killed in 2011, ministry of defence figures said.

There were 28 violations reported in 2009, followed by 77 in 2008, 21 in 2007 and three in 2006, the figures said.

"All ceasefire violations are taken up with Pakistan military authorities at appropriate level through established mechanism of hotline, flag meetings as well as weekly talks between the director generals of military operations," Antony had said.

India and Pakistan, during National Democratic Alliane rule, had taken a major confidence building measure by entering into border ceasefire along the LoC in Jammu and Kashmir on November 26, 2003

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 02 Oct 2013 15:10

Reports of new clashes coming in ...

http://www.firstpost.com/india/exclusiv ... 47267.html

....

Even as Prime Minister Manmohan Singh met with Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in New York, Indian troops were engaged in a murderous fight to clear Pakistani troops who have occupied a ghost village alone the Line of Control, highly placed military sources have told Firstpost. This is the first time since the 2001-2002 near-war that Pakistani troops have held territory across the Line of Control, and comes as a ceasefire declared after that conflict unravels.

Fighting, the sources said, is still taking place in the village of Shala Bhata, where Pakistani irregulars and special forces personnel are using abandoned homes to fire on troops attempting to clear the area

...

“There’s no confirmation yet about who the infiltrators are”, a senior New Delhi-based military spokesperson said, “but some of the bodies we’ve recovered are wearing uniforms, which is suggestive. More important, the tactics and disciplined use of firepower by the infiltrators show they are likely special forces personnel, not just infiltrators.”

The intrusion, the sources said, took place on the night of 23 September, taking advantage of gaps in patrolling which took place when troops of the 20 Kumaon regiment were handing over charge to the 3-3 Gurkha, during a routine rotation of troops. The intruders took cover in unoccupied observation posts overlooking a nullah, or village stream, as well as abandoned homes.

Earlier this year, five Indian soldiers were executed in an ambush near Chakan-da-Bagh in Poonch, when the 21 Bihar were handing over charge of a stretch of the Sarla battalion area to the 14 Maratha Light Infantry. “This suggests the Pakistani army is carefully monitoring the Line of Control”, an intelligence official told Firstpost, “identifying weaknesses to stage strikes of opportunity”.

Shala Bhata, some 20 kilometres as the crow flies from the district headquarters at Keran, looks over the Kishanganga river, and is perched on a strategically-vital arc that overlooks Pakistan’s main line of communication to the northern stretches of the Line of Control.

In 1990, many inhabitants of the village’s 21-odd families left for Pakistan, fearing imminent fighting. They continue to live just across the Line of Control, in a hamlet also called Shala Bhata. Pakistani troops have a small encampment just across the Line of Control. The remainder of the village’s inhabitants were evacuated from the area in 1999-1999, amidst intense Pakistani fire directed at adjoining Indian military positions.

...

Pakistani troops last occupied positions on the Indian side of the Line of Control in July, 2002, taking Loonda Post— part of the same sector where fighting is now underway. India responded, on that occasion, by using eight Mirage 2000 aircraft to drop precision-guided bombs on to the four occupied bunkers. Following the air strike, troops supported by 155-millimetre howitzers retook the positions.

The daylight air assault, government sources told Firstpost, had been authorised at the highest political leavel, and were intended to demonstrate that India would not hesitate to escalate the conflict if provoked.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nits » 02 Oct 2013 15:38

Pakistani troops occupy Indian village along the LoC, say sources

Image

Even as Prime Minister Manmohan Singh met Nawaz Sharif in New York, Indian troops were engaged in a gunfight to clear Pakistani troops who had occupied a ghost village alone the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir, sources said.

According to sources, fighting is still taking place in the village of Shala Bhata. Pakistani irregulars and special force personnel are reportedly using abandoned houses as cover to fire at Indian soldiers.

This is the first time since the 2001-2002 near-war that Pakistani troops have held territory in India. The intrusion took place on the night of September 23 when a routine troop rotation was happening on the Indian side
.

Shala Bhata is a strategic point that overlooks Pakistan’s main line of communication to the northern stretches of the Line of Control.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby arijitkm » 02 Oct 2013 18:10

^^^^

......
Shala Bhata, some 20 kilometres as the crow flies from the district headquarters at Keran, looks over the Kishanganga river, and is perched on a strategically-vital arc that overlooks Pakistan’s main line of communication to the northern stretches of the Line of Control.

In 1990, many inhabitants of the village’s 21-odd families left for Pakistan, fearing imminent fighting. They continue to live just across the Line of Control, in a hamlet also called Shala Bhata. Pakistani troops have a small encampment just across the Line of Control. The remainder of the village’s inhabitants were evacuated from the area in 1999, amidst intense Pakistani fire directed at adjoining Indian military positions. The occupation of the ghost village of Shala Bhata began less than a week before Prime Minister Singh held talks with Prime Minister Sharif in New York. Their discussions centred around measures to deescalate tensions on the line of control. The two Prime Ministers ordered their Directors-General of Military Operations to hold talks to defuse growing tensions.

Pakistani troops last occupied positions on the Indian side of the Line of Control in July, 2002, taking Loonda Post— part of the same sector where fighting is now underway. India responded, on that occasion, by using eight Mirage 2000 aircraft to drop precision-guided bombs on to the four occupied bunkers. Following the air strike, troops supported by 155-millimetre howitzers retook the positions. The daylight air assault, government sources told Firstpost, had been authorised at the highest political leavel, and were intended to demonstrate that India would not hesitate to escalate the conflict if provoked.
.........


Read more at: Exclusive: As PM talked peace, Pak grabbed ghost village on LoC. by Praveen Swami / Firstpost

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 02 Oct 2013 22:49

So far from the sketchy reports it can only be confirmed that:

1. There is large number of infiltrators in a certain area near LoC.
2. Operations are underway
3. Enemy is well trained.

We do not know:

1. Exact location of the incident
2. Whether there is any fire support from Pak Army from across LoC
3. Identity of infiltrators though I hazard they are plain terrorists.
4. Why they have massed in such large numbers. I don't think we have encountered such a large group in last 10 years.

In recent attack on Army camp in Samba, the terrorists were able to commandeer a vehicle and attack 2 different security force targets. They were well equipped, and clearly well trained - and did not intend to 'melt away' after hitting - indicates high motivation level. Same as 26/11 and some instances of J&K operations. Plus you have BATs and what not which are not distinguisable from regular Pak army.

What is the paki stratagem? :roll:

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/army ... 12767.html

Amid reports of a Kargil-like intrusion in Keran sector of north Kashmir's Kupwara district near the Line of Control (LoC), the Indian Army on Wednesday clarified it as a massive infiltration attempt and said holed up militants inside the Indian territory would be flushed out.

...

Lt General Gurmit Singh, GoC-in-C of Srinagar based 15-Corps, said infiltrators were seen in the Keran sector on September 24. He said a flushing out operation was launched and some 12 militants were killed. However, the Army has not recovered their bodies so far. The GoC said that the bodies of the militants were inconsequential for him, adding that some 30 to 40 militants were still holed-up in the area, which has been cordoned off.

So far five troops have sustained injuries in the combing operation. "Operation is in place. We are taking on them (militants) in an organised way. I will not like to hurry up the operation. We want there should be no fatality from our side," he added.

The GoC described the holed up militants as some "specially trained" people and said they could be also part of a Border Action Team (BAT). But he didn't specify whether they are part of BAT of Pakistani troops.

Incidentally, the GoC did not accuse Pakistan of helping the holed-up infiltrators and said there has not been significant ceasefire violation in the area during these days.

About the reports that Pakistani irregulars have occupied Shala Bhata village near LoC in Keran sector and Indian army was using Air Force to vacate the area, the GOC said there was no village in the operation area. "It is absurd to say that we are using Air Force," the GoC said. {Praveen Swami's reporting may not be true}

Lt General Singh, however, refused to answer questions about the operation area, how militants sneaked inside the Indian territory in such a large number and why the Army failed to retrieve the bodies of the militants killed in the operation. He said if the details would be shared at this juncture it could affect the operation and risk the lives of troops, who are engaging with militants in the "rugged mountainous terrain."

He described the reports that three posts - which are one kilometre close to no-man's land in Keran sector - were negligently vacated by Indian Army earlier and Pakistani soldiers occupied them as "false and absurd."

A Srinagar-based local newspaper, quoting sources, on Wednesday reported that Army's 268 Mountain Brigade launched an all out operation to reclaim the captured posts from Pakistan army. The paper said the Aarmy used helicopter gunships to push the Pakistanis back and the army eventually retrieved their posts from Pakistan army and concluded the operation. It also said the Army killed a 75-year-old civilian in Machil sector of Kupwara in September 27 and projected him as dreaded militant to deflate attention from the incursions in Keran sector.

However, the GoC said that the person killed in Machil was 42-year-old militant and huge cache of arms were recovered from him.

The GoC said no village or post was occupied by militants. "The cordon was in place and we are in control," the GoC said.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_23694 » 02 Oct 2013 23:06

Query :
Cordoning of the area is fine. But can the Indian army for this particular scenario when
there are 30-40 terrorist use :
Thermal Imager/Night vision device equipped UAV's/??? to pinpoint locations and bomb them
with attack helicopters/?? and end the story once and for all
Is there a feasibility of such an approach ?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 02 Oct 2013 23:33

Gen Singh in the press briefing appeared way over aggressive, basically shutting up any questions and saying operational issues prevented him from answering. Could be either anger at incorrect press reporting or pressure to keep things under wraps/get the job done. Considering the Surinder Singh episode, and current GOI image, latter is a possibility as well.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby RoyG » 03 Oct 2013 01:28

Unfortunately, this is going to take some time. The troops/irregulars seem well entrenched and are probably receiving supplies and reinforcements. The longer this takes the harder it will be to dislodge them. The jihadis that hit srinagar looked well equipped. BAT's and SSG probably involved.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 03 Oct 2013 01:59

I guess talks will go on with Badmash.

But seriously the leaked wikileaks shows the motivations that drive TSP to engage in egregious behavior:

Bottomline Kashmir is getting peaceful
- Local Kashmiri terrorists are losing heart
- Kashmiri separatists are also seeing the futility of their actions
- Only people left are LeT type TSP terrorists who get shot while infiltrating so they are sending suicide squads.
- This leaves only recourse is to send Paki regular troops to infiltrate and ambush.
The beheading shows the Pakis have lost their mind and dont respect Genvea conventions anymore. So expect reciprocal behavior.Any one recall how many PTSP POWs were there in Kargil?


So what can India do?

- Indian Army

-Realize the enemy is desparate for high profile incidents: ambushes, beheadings, occupy vacant posts such loss of face incidents.
- Be on vigil and have sufficient troops where ever they are located. Be on guard. Cant send 6 man Area Dominance patrols near border. Have to be more in strength or have immediate back up.
Same time use the opportunity to lure and ambush the ambushers.
- If vacated posts are occupied use more than ordinary resources to level and destroy them with incendiary shells if needed. They can be rebuilt.

- realize trigger points are whenever GOI prepares to talk to TSP some terrorist incident will happen.


Indian polticians
- Do more of what they are already doing to allow the spoils system to be equally shared by all Kashmiris and not just the Badullahs.
- No need to let them have a monopoly on the resources.
- Its all coming from rest of India and not just Delhi.
- Restrict foreign personnel access to Kashmir unless they are tourists.

More latter.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_27581 » 03 Oct 2013 02:30

^^^
Ramana Sir!
You are quite right in your analysis/guidances, as people here say "if wishes were horses..."

I also think
1. We are going to see more and more of "Non State actor" theories in near future and acts like this or BATs/irregulars
2. This is influenced, if not a fall-out, from the AfPak landscape (may be a bit premature)
3. This is all under the assumption of an incoherent and soft response if any from on our side.
4. On a related note does the army have the flexibility to have "befitting" and not calibrated response or do they have to wait for nod from Delhi?

Thanks

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Cosmo_R » 03 Oct 2013 02:34

@Ramana: Time to ask for Predators/Reapers and test unkil's resolve?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 03 Oct 2013 04:35

Cosmo_R wrote:@Ramana: Time to ask for Predators/Reapers and test unkil's resolve?



That would be falling into their laps.
I suggest 40mm L-70s with HEI after dousing the posts with petrol.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby KrishnaK » 03 Oct 2013 05:56

ramana wrote: Restrict foreign personnel access to Kashmir unless they are tourists.
If the US really wants to poison the minds of actors in the Kashmir dispute they'll find a way to do it without indian permission. This is just a different version of the story of Rishyasringa. IMVHO this security mindset w.r.t. to people won't work anymore. We're on a strong wicket and there's no need to play on the backfoot. India should move towards more transparency and openness w.r.t. the world even if it hurts us in the short term.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_23455 » 03 Oct 2013 09:32

KrishnaK wrote:
ramana wrote: Restrict foreign personnel access to Kashmir unless they are tourists.
If the US really wants to poison the minds of actors in the Kashmir dispute they'll find a way to do it without indian permission. This is just a different version of the story of Rishyasringa. IMVHO this security mindset w.r.t. to people won't work anymore. We're on a strong wicket and there's no need to play on the backfoot. India should move towards more transparency and openness w.r.t. the world even if it hurts us in the short term.


+100.

The reactionary measures advocated on here are precisely what the bad guys want. Keep cool and act, there is a fine line between desperation and aggression.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby kit » 03 Oct 2013 11:11

Wonder if some technological solutions can be found.. DRDO apparently has some protoypes of some battlefield robots with rather impressive firepower .. why not deploy at the borders 24*7 and get user feedback . Thats how Israel did and DRDO can follow suit.. for full time surveillance and real time action with no attrition., nothing beats armed drones and robots

on a side note DRDO can be pro active ., since uncle sam s drone s are pounding pk s butt end regularly , DRDO armed drones can get to work out on militants trying to sneak in.. :mrgreen: .. i dont think they will know the difference :mrgreen:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Singha » 03 Oct 2013 13:36

a overpowering statement needs to be made in such situation imo.

perhaps 12 aircraft each with 4x1000lb plastering the area make the message loud and clear. wrestling with the pigs on their terms will lose us a few valuable troopers lives and embolden them that they can set the level of escalation and we will merely match.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby krishnan » 03 Oct 2013 14:02

aircrafts are overkill , just bombard them with bofors

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Philip » 03 Oct 2013 14:06

Once their locations and hideouts are known,a saturation air attack using napalm of the entire area would roast the pigs
and send a clear message to the Paki military that we will use any means to exterminate any vermin that crosses the LOC. one could also give our arty. and MBRLs some target practice too.In fact this is a good opportunity to use a variety of weaponry and test them out.It is neccessary sometimes to kill an insect with an elephant. This is one such time.If Paki aircraft take to the skies and come within combat range,they should likewise be put to pasture.

On one of the talk shows a couple of weeks ago,a veteran analysts showed how every time Nawaz Sharif came to power,the tempo of terror increased.He made a pact with the ungodly to win the election,and is now making good on his promises to the state and non-state terrorist entities.What many have missed is the allowed use of lies and duplicity to achieve an end sanctioned by the religion itself.It also explains the lust for beheading.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby williams » 03 Oct 2013 17:05

While these local operations are good. It is required that we inflict pain on the masterminds behind this strategy. Unless the top brass who are letting these pigs to infiltrate feel the pain of their doing we cannot reverse their strategy. So India should seriously think about asymmetric strategy to inflict pain at the top most level. Given the Pakiness of their leaders, they will not care if a few of their own people become cannon fodder. For them it is just an instrument against India. We need to be smart enough to identify the masterminds behind these terrorists and give them sleepless nights. It is India who is accepting the premise of the proxy war. We need to fire against the people behind the proxies and fight the war in our own terms. Today it looks like we have settled down for a war of attrition strategy. Given that the attrition on their side are pigs as compared to our own well trained precious soldiers, we are the big losers here. It does not matter how many pigs we kill.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby darshhan » 03 Oct 2013 17:55

^^ Williams is right. The answer does not lie on the LOC or even beyond LOC. It lies in Rawalpindi. Pakistan's population is rapidly rising. Combined with institutional hatred of Kafirs that is the cornerstone of Islam, it means Pakistan will never be short of Jihadis(includes the average Pakistani Army soldier). The top brass of Paki Army simply do not care if the common Jihadi/Paki soldiers die by dozens or hundreds. Until unless we start attacking them directly along with targeting ISI members, we will not achieve the desired results. Simultaneously we will have to initiate Unconventional warfare in Baluchistan, Karachi and tribal areas of Pakistan.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Garooda » 03 Oct 2013 18:07

Wonder if IA has used drones big or small at night with infrared/night vision cams to identify the hogs. Can someone shed some light ?
Last edited by Garooda on 03 Oct 2013 18:15, edited 1 time in total.


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