Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 04 Sep 2013 23:46

Like I said, I was speculating on why the IAF did not convert civil jets. I am certain that they looked at the issue as one of their options and discarded it for better reasons than just being goof-off traitors in the pay of some foreign company.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 Sep 2013 01:04

mil spec =/= civvie spec

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 05 Sep 2013 01:09

Lalmohan wrote:mil spec =/= civvie spec

You are right. but it doesn't matter for refuelers. They are not taking off from un prepped runways.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 Sep 2013 01:13

only if you compromise... most mils stick to mil spec

raj-ji · Post by **raj-ji** » 05 Sep 2013 03:10

NRao wrote:
Cheaper rupee means our products are cheaper to foreign customers. See where this is going?
Turns out India needs to import so it can export. Outside of IT, there is not much export from India - this is based on what I just heard on NPR and an article (somewhere) in the past day or two.

Good point about the net importer status. But the IT companies get paid in foreign exchange for work often done in India. That benefits them tremendously and everyone knows the impact of a healthy IT sector on the Indian economy.

If the Rupee stays low for 1 or 2 quarters, it may change things for certain sectors. Cars, clothes and other products made in India now become more attractive to other countries.

As the new RBI Chief said, the Indian economy is fundamentally sound. If this continues, then the recent economic activity should swing the other way.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 06 Sep 2013 03:54

raj-ji wrote:
Regarding the Raffy deal, standard procurement procedures tie the price to certain exchange rates. If that wasn't used, doubtful this is the case, India still has massive foreign currency reserves.

Another interesting fact, the Panda is spending billions to keep their currency artificially low, to help exports. We are spending billions trying to prop up our currency. Cheaper rupee means our products are cheaper to foreign customers. See where this is going?

Two corrections:
Massive foreign reserves ? --> That's China with almost 4 trillion dollars. India has a measly 300 billion comparatively (7~8% of China) and will be spending 10% of it on just one Rafale acquisition. This Rafale thingy better be the bramhastra to justify selling 10% of our gold (which can feed 800 million Indians for two years as per our newly minted Welfare scheme). In simple terms : A Chinese is ten times more rich as compared to an Indian. Do you hear the Chinese spending 20~30 billion on buying foreign goods, Nah!. They steal and sell copies to Pakis and other third world countries. This is why they have ten times more money in the bank!

Panda is not spending billion to keep the Yuan low, It does not work like this. Panda has a net positive current account. They have to buy dollars to keep the Yaun from appreciating. That's how they have become rich by 4 trillion dollars (Hard work, dedication and Taiwanese love counts as well). India on the other hand has to spend dollars to keep rupee from dropping further. We have a negative current account deficit. It means that in 10 years @ 20 billion negative deficit per year, we will exhaust our measly foreign reserves. We are surviving by selling a portion of our economic opportunity every year i.e. enter Walmart, Ikea...

Hope this helps why we need to get our act together fast or welcome Greece II

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Sep 2013 15:47

MAKS 2013 French Air Force Rafale

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Sep 2013 18:56

The latest IT has an article on Indian industry,"RIP".The situation is exceptionally bad.The regime's ultra-crooked crony capitalism has allowed it to slowly die during its two terms,pandering to firang interests.Quislings have favoured FDI,Walmart.Monsanto,etc.,and imagine that keeping the Indian peasant happy with a small dole will keep him a trusty voter and an ignoramus.I simply can't any govt. in the future that can afford the Rafale deal to go through as originally intended.Along with the exceptionally high price of upgrading M-2000s,the two deals are becoming very uneconomical. Pretty soon the honeymoon period for the new RBI governor will end and the inevitable further fall of the whoopie will take place and who knows what might happen then.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Sep 2013 19:02

What happens when waiters attempt to lead nations.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 07 Sep 2013 23:30

nik wrote:Panda is not spending billion to keep the Yuan low, It does not work like this.

Oh, then what is this in your very next sentence if not spending billions to keep the Yuan low...

They have to buy dollars to keep the Yaun from appreciating.

Because of its free-lending policies towards exporters and developers, China is going to implode just like Japan did. Japan had the largest foreign reserves then and still is just behind China but that didn't help them and it won't help China. Japan survived because of its strong banking system and social order but has yet to fully recover. China will have no chance.

OTOH, India has about the same foreign reserves levels as Brazil, Korea and Germany while having about the same oil import bill. And India also has a balance of payments EXCESS against its largest trading partner, the US, so it is OK to buy Javelin, Apache, C-17, C-130, M777 and Chinook. A case can be made in these difficult times to dump the Rafale and buy the cheaper (and IMO deadlier) Super Hornet with those excess dollars

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 08 Sep 2013 16:57

NRao wrote:What happens when waiters attempt to lead nations.

Poets and tea boys are so much better suited.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Sep 2013 00:10

As I had mentioned, an ARM was one of the key things missing in the Rafale portfolio. Apparently, the AGM-88 is also an option but it is probably unlikely that the US will release it for integration. The Kh-31PD when fielded will also be on the Super-30.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Sep 2013 08:28

I don't see why we do not acquire the upgraded KH-31s and integrate them with our existing MKIs or MIG-29UGs which can complement the Rafale for the strike role. However,the Rafale deal is still in limbo.The most cost-effective option in these days of financial stress would be buying more MIG29/35s.But if the idea is to reduce the over-dependence on Russia as a priority,then the Rafale deal will have to be restructured drastically.Even the M-2000 upgrade is horrendously expensive,almost the cost of a new MIG-29K.

If the French aren't able to swing the Brazilian contest,and lose out to the Typhoon in the Gulf,where the monarchist Brits have a political advantage in dealing with the kingdoms and sheikhdoms over the French,the costs of procurement and operating the aircraft over its life-cycle is going to increase which will affect us.The JSF is facing the same problem.It needs more export orders (hope of 25-30% of total built) to bring the costs of procurement and support down,making it more attractive for buyers,but can't give a definite figure as the projected numbers to be built are in doubt.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Sep 2013 11:58

^^^ philip-ji, never underestimate the dish-dash wearing sheikh's homo erotic fascination for the french 'aristocrat'. someone disdainful, scornful and gentlemanly who will flog them and then get them all fired up... ze vill be puttee in zeir hands

koti · Post by **koti** » 15 Sep 2013 06:00

Russian Missiles for India’s Rafales
What do you think will be the missiles of interest?
I don't any current generation AAM's will be of interest.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 21 Sep 2013 11:49

France receives first Tranche 4 AESA Rafale

The aircraft (B339) is the first production Rafale to be delivered as standard with the new Thales Radar à Balayage Electronique 2 (RBE2) active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.

Delivery of the aircraft, a two-seat Rafale B F3, took place on 12 September, according to the DGA, with B339 destined for the French Air Force. The aircraft is the 121st Rafale to be delivered to the country's armed forces. Beside the RBE2 AESA, Tranche 4 aircraft also include F3 standard improvements such as a new Thales SPECTRA self-defence system and Mode-5/Mode-S-compatible Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) interrogator/transponder.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Sep 2013 13:16

"Jet set no",says the Week mag in its latest issue.It says that the deal is stalled due to controversies/First ,two MPs,Yashwant Sinha and Mysoora Reddy,wrote to the DM AKA against the deal.YS saying that the life-cycle cost was too high and the other MP that it hadn't been sold outside France.AKA as usual,to keep his dhoti spotless and whiter than white ,passed the buck to babudom.They found that the AW tainted "infamous British middleman",Christian Michel's name had appeared as a previous middleman for Dassault.
dassault has also expressed reservations about HAL being able to deliver the goods,as it has a tie-up with Reliance.While HAL is not averse to Reliance's involvement in manufacturing components,all final integration should be done by HAL.

Surely,the DM/MOD can easily answer the Qs put to them.Firstly,the entire evaluation was done most elaborately by various teams ,technical and financial as to which aircraft was the most cost-effective solution.The fact that Rafale has not been sold outside France is that most western nations are US allies and fly US made aircraft,whose manufacturers have the "inside lane" in winning contests.Other EU nations like Britain and Germany,are with the EF consortium which makes the Typhoon.Unfortunately,AKA has never been a pro-active Def. Min.,in fact usually deaf to the cries from the services,allegedly more interested in the politics of his home state
of Kerala than the pile of files on his table.He is also willing to do his master's bidding,speedily wrapping up deals for the US which the mendicant of snake-oil will conclude during his US/UN sojourn.With the LCA experiencing its usual delays,and only upgraded old aircraft filling the role,any further delay in finalising the Rafale,even in reduced number as many nations are doing,will be a dereliction of duty.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 29 Sep 2013 22:46

Russian pooh-poohs MMRCA negotiations

Victor M. Komardin, deputy chief of Russian defence export agency Rosoboronexport, has insinuated that the long-pending medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal for procurement of 126 fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF) is unlikely to be inked before the general elections next year.

Addressing the media at the ongoing Namexpo (Naval and Maritime Expo) here on Tuesday, Mr. Komardin derisively commented that while contract negotiations between buyer (Air Force, in this case) and the lowest bidder (French company Dassault, which makes Rafale fighter aircraft) would normally witness the buyer asking for further lowering of price, the MMRCA negotiations saw the price almost double.

“What does this mean?” he asked, and said “not even a finger will move [to sign the deal] till the general elections are over.”
..
...

On the absence of an air defence system (long range surface-to-air missile or LR-SAM) on the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, he said while the carrier was being refurbished, the price of a few systems was not agreeable to the Indian side, which wanted ‘some systems reduced’.

“They kept it for a later date. Once the carrier is handed over to India, it is their decision to integrate any systems on the platform,” he said acidly.

To a question on India’s plan to retrofit the vessel with Barak 8 being jointly developed by India and Israel, he said Russia being the makers of the vessel would be in the loop while the retrofitting would be done. Mr. Komardin reeled out figures like 3,000 defence contractors visiting India last year alone to fulfil the over 50 contracts the country currently had in India.

On the status of the Multi-Role Transport Aircraft, developed by the Russian United Aircraft Corporation-Transport Aircraft and Indian Hindustan Aeronautics Limited under a Joint Venture, he said the project would take time to fructify as bureaucracy made processes cumbersome and difficult.
....

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Sep 2013 07:28

There are no reported variations in Dassault HAL/vendor negotiations. It seems to be in track to closure. Dassault claims that Rafale is as good as any other 5th gen aircraft.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Sep 2013 07:51

now, why not get the api from rafale, and get our lab boys integrate the krypton on rafale? that means, rafale getting closer to the offer.. otoh, after elections, there is a higher chance of scrapping the deal, as home grown platforms might increase to convert the mmrca frustration with modernization and re-energizing the LCA-3/mca platform.

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 30 Sep 2013 09:23

I dont think the congress government was ever serious about the rafale. They were only seeking more inputs and got along with the tide of all the talk about the prospect of an MMRCA. Existing platforms are sufficient to maintain peace and stability in the region. Upgrading existing platforms is something they could be more serious about.

When Modi saheb's government comes to power...only then can some these fancy piece of machinery be glimpsed with the force. Also, I think only then will scorpene project gather some real steam.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Sep 2013 14:36

As the day passes by Rafale more and more looks like an expensive buy offering little bang for the buck we are paying , since we have to option to go for more Super 30 MKI and FGFA.

Its better to go for a most cost effective fighter either the new Mig-35 or F-16 Block 60 on offer and close the MMRCA deal with 126 number to close the force depletion gap this decade.

Put the remaining money and it would be significant amount in Tejas program and in new block model under development and order 200-300 Tejas Mk2/Mk3 variant .

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 30 Sep 2013 17:15

Rafale carrying more payload than SH and 45% bigger jet would have some golden tech used in construction, which if learned might be good for other platforms like AMCA, Nirbhay & Astra etc. All those machines making such a platform will come here, once these 126 / 200 are manufactured, these machines will be free to made AMCA etc.

Plus as Mort Walker ji had pointed out, the IAF may be interested in getting an a/c with more uptime and less preparation or maintenance hours. In this probably rafale & ef2k scored highest.

Just like Mig 29 though more capable fighter than M2k but probably 6 a/cs out of 60 are ready at any given time. While M2k with its high uptime will be 40 ready out of 50 at any given time.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Sep 2013 17:55

Rafale has no magic bullet. Heavy payload means more restrictions on performance like all planes. With all points full the rafale will perform like a dog for sure.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Sep 2013 21:06

The upgrades of the MIG-29,60+ for less than $1B is a pittance when compared with the $2.4B for just 40 M-2000s.Anyway,once both types have been upgraded,they will serve out for another two decades.But that gives us just 100+ multi-role aircraft apart from the 270+ SU-30s of frontline aircraft.The upgraded Jaguars and MIG-27s cannot compare and even the MIG-21 Bisons,which have punched very well far above their weight,will be due for a well deserved retirement by 2010.The LCA MK-1 itself is nowhere in series production and the production figures given are a joke.AT best the LCA will be a useful augment to the heavier multirole assets which will bear the brunt of combat ops.If the Rafale deal is not rushed through,then the IAF will be in sh*t street unless this is all part of a well orchestrated conspiracy for the US to try and get one of its fighters inducted through the FMS back door ,which the UPA/Congress is famous for doing.

At the very least,if prices have escalated to the rupee's downfall,we can adopt the Canadian policy of buying far less (less than half,37 instead of 85earlier ordered ) JSF F-35s ,say 80 Rafales and fill up numbers with more MIG-29s similar in std. to the IN's MIG-29Ks and at half the price of a Rafale,if numbers have to be kept happy.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 01 Oct 2013 22:54

Yeah, time to kill Rafale. Add more brahmos capable MKI. The level of tech can stay same. Adding 60 more MKI will streamline things for us quite a bit and save us quite a bit of FE at the moment.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Oct 2013 22:26

About a month ago I had said that Raffy deal is in jepoardy as the French are not icludig the TOT and the rupee had fallen in price.

Here is a link on some of the big reasons on how the deal is messed up.

1. L1 price by France was bogus as it did not include the ToT and traning of pilots.
2. L1 price is being insisted by India.

3. Vacillation by RM has led to time being lost twi years to find this out?
4. US and Russia are pressuring GOI to give their industries work to get thru the recession.

http://www.politicsparty.com/shownews.php?newsid=264

End result thank to UPA IAF is screwed and disarmed as IA was in 1962 by the government.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Oct 2013 23:06

So the MOD got conned bigtime? Thanks to its own underestimation of costs and Dassault's canny understanding of IAF desparation, plus "billions of good wishes". LOL.. what a farcical situation if its true. Looks like something out of Yes Minister.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Oct 2013 23:15

Huh! I want this mother of deals scrapped and go for 2 year squadron update strategy.. the tradeoff analysis is that maintaining a potent force has a high priority than logistics now.. i think the numbers point to that in terms of capabilities.

So, it is better to get two squadron per year plan, with a 10 year price guarantee. Heck with ToT, and get the whole thing knocked down.. or trash Rafale, and choose the second in line.. worst case, get back to other upgrades, and MKI platform.

See.. these point to vital LCA program to be maintained in steady stream.. LCA squadrons mean real-time business model and capabilities are established and operationalized.

Enhancements always happen as we go.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Oct 2013 06:53

Yes,scrap the full TOT insistence,buy 2-3 sqds, off the shelf,as we did with the M-2000,use the money saved to develop our variant of the vastly superior FGFA and accelerate the LCA's and acquire more MKI's or MIG-29/35s to make up numbers without spending extra moolah on training,etc.I am sure a couple of LR tactical strike SU-34s would be very welcome,plugging a gap in the IAF's inventory.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 04 Oct 2013 08:56

^^^
What's the obsession with the Rafale? We can't afford 126-189 but w must blow owe money on a couple dozen anyway? There are at better options. BTW I read that the UAE Rafael deal might be back on. And they are asking Dassault to buy back/find buyers for their 60 M2000s.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Oct 2013 07:13

My obsession? Just read what the air chief has just said.'Essential' for the IAF.
He has also advocated the IAF gearing itself up to building aircraft, instead of relying upon HAL a
etc. ACM Browne also junked HAL's trainer.saying that it was a waste of money and time.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 05 Oct 2013 09:10

Dassault Rafale deal stalled again by Indian negotiator's death

http://avindia.blogspot.in/2013/10/dass ... in-by.html

French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian remained upbeat Thursday on prospects for French engineer Dassault's planned sale of 126 Rafale fighter jets to India, despite the death of Delhi's chief negotiator this week. Talks on the sale have dragged on for months and could be threatened by a change of government after next May's general election.
Indian Defence Ministry Arun Kumar Bal suffered a fatal heart attack on Wednesday, a development that is likely to stall already slow-moving negotiations for several weeks.
But Le Drian on Thursday said he did not think it would have a negative effect on the process, although a change of government in next year's Indian election could mean a change in buying policy.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 05 Oct 2013 16:19

Philip wrote:My obsession? Just read what the air chief has just said.'Essential' for the IAF.

Did he actually say we must get at least a handful of Rafales even if we cannot get the original planned numbers?

He has also advocated the IAF gearing itself up to building aircraft, instead of relying upon HAL a etc.

Would be a welcome move. May be now they will realize how hard it is to build the capability to develop and manufacture even a "three legged cheetah" LCA. BTW how do they plan to go about it?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Oct 2013 18:12

Chief is speaking of obvious. Rafale ain't going to be signed for another 1.5 years at least. This January, we wrote two possibilities on Rafale. Should India cut down IAF MMRCA Rafale Combat aircraft numbers? and Does Indian Air Force need Rafale at all? . Around same time, ACM was claiming that the deal will be signed by March. Was he not seeing the obvious?

As I took pains to explain to a French gent who was "vehemently" upset over my call ( to cut MMRCA order fleet to half, let Dassault produce them and HAL absorbing the critical tech in parallel), the deal is too late in the day. We will deplete all the fleet by the time it is inked. A gent from one of the nations prominent think tank also ended up calling to find out if FI office was in New Delhi or not and wanted to know our reasons for saying so.

As if to mock, one French newspaper claimed that orders will increase by half. I made it a point to document this Claims and counter claims over India’s Rafale MMRCA purchase from France.

After that French Min of Defence said that he expects 126 France hopes for just 126 Rafale sales from India

Just before MMS went to USA, AKA said that defence has been spared of budget cuts. It was merely posturing.

Few days back, HAL sounded to me that the meetings have not lost the tempo. The came the death of negotiator.

Even if signed tomorrow, the plane will not be in IAF even to arrest sqn numbers, forget building capabilities. Delays are a part of Indian life now. French would have also put road blocks with definitions and other tactics to extract more in between implementation.

All this is not difficult to see. How come Chief missed it? They should have struck to M2K's and not go for all options thali for l1.

Anyway, IAF will do the obvious by building more Su-30 MKI's and LCA's. Next government will have to take a call on this issue.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Oct 2013 19:07

This chief missed nothing. What he said, when he said, was his was to exert some pressure at that point in time. It just did not work, which is OK - he tried.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 05 Oct 2013 20:45

His job is to keep the IAF in the best fighting shape possible. He has no real control on when the MRCA deal actually gets signed, if it ever does. Making "dehati aurat" type complains to the media makes no difference. However there are things that he can control such as giving larger orders for the Tejas, which he hasn't done. Instead the plan it seems is to stake the nations security on this deal.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 05 Oct 2013 20:57

Rafale deal is pretty much over. I don't see how this can progress forward given the falling value of the rupee and the timetable for deliveries. We should begin investing in LCAI and II, speed up Kaveri development, and invest in more Su-30's.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 05 Oct 2013 21:09

http://in.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=USDINR%3DX&t=3m

Rupee is at 62 from near 69 a few weeks back. About gain of 8% or so. If it falls below still the better for this deal.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Oct 2013 22:11

abhik wrote:<snip> However there are things that he can control such as giving larger orders for the Tejas, which he hasn't done. Instead the plan it seems is to stake the nations security on this deal.

As if Tejas will miraculously appear out of thin air if more orders are placed. And IOC-2 will be achieved and timeline promised for FOC will be met.

But we must repeat the same thing again and again even if it makes no sense - simply because that is what 'we' feel.