Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 06 Sep 2013 19:17

>>This is the mindset that we can observe in every single thread on the forum. A member recommends India make civilizational compromises and gives undue and permanent advantage to GCC just to get $2-5B FDI per year,

that is a mis-conception some people have in this forum...well ,let Gelf invest in India..it gives India a leverage over gelf..not other way round

as far as gelf based entities ,financing terrorism and religious fundamentalism is concerned, that is happening even today...banning fdi from gelf won't stop it...it etisalat invests in telecom sector in India ,it ll not benefit terrorism in any conceivable way...in fact if gcc has extremely huge investment in deshland ,it ll be desperate to protect its financial interests ...what more do we want?

imagine dawood in emirates...when do we have a better chance of catching him? UAE having 150 billion worth of hard assets in India. or UAE having been banned from doing business in India...obviously the former scenario...for UAE its 150b worth of investment in desh ,be far more important than dawood....would hand him over in a platter....

member_27444 · Post by **member_27444** » 06 Sep 2013 19:24

Begs the question that 150 billion was generated out of
India's soil, from soiled notes to fake currency racket to money laundering with netas in co operation.

India is not a poor country it's poorly managed country.

Even Rahul baba said stately

poverty is a state of mind

Here state means country according to him

Dawood Bhai as I, many ministers and Bollywood natch girls call him
Is the biggest single investor in India, we should thank for his pardes Bharathi forward thinking

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 06 Sep 2013 19:28

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 06 Sep 2013 19:36

Amyrao wrote:It is not Kabir ke dohe

It says Tuslse ke sahit Vivek

Wise would attribute it to Tulsi das no?

Yes, spoken to Bharata by SriRama before he departs for Ayodhya from Chitrkoota.

दोहा- मुखिआ मुखु सो चाहिऐ खान पान कहुँ एक।
पालइ पोषइ सकल अँग तुलसी सहित बिबेक॥३१५॥

A king should be like the mouth, which alone does all the eating and drinking but
supports and nourishes all the other limbs with discretion, says Tulasidasa.

राजधरम सरबसु एतनोई। जिमि मन माहँ मनोरथ गोई॥

The essence of a kings duty is only this much, which lies hidden in the Sastras,
even as a desire is cherished in the heart (before it is expressed).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Sep 2013 19:42

A queen should be like a-hole then.. if she does not open the doors, then everything false apart.

Sorry to be pungent, but I am failing to convey the message that still we are seeking for kingships and queenships,when all they done is what all the current - state - of - mind put together can achieve.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 06 Sep 2013 19:49

Is it me or the devil duo is LKA and SS, D-2 actually or the SIth Lord from star wars, there is always only two - the teacher and the disciple

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Sep 2013 19:53

gakakkad wrote:>>This is the mindset that we can observe in every single thread on the forum. A member recommends India make civilizational compromises and gives undue and permanent advantage to GCC just to get $2-5B FDI per year,

that is a mis-conception some people have in this forum...well ,let Gelf invest in India..it gives India a leverage over gelf..not other way round

as far as gelf based entities ,financing terrorism and religious fundamentalism is concerned, that is happening even today...banning fdi from gelf won't stop it...it etisalat invests in telecom sector in India ,it ll not benefit terrorism in any conceivable way...in fact if gcc has extremely huge investment in deshland ,it ll be desperate to protect its financial interests ...what more do we want?

imagine dawood in emirates...when do we have a better chance of catching him? UAE having 150 billion worth of hard assets in India. or UAE having been banned from doing business in India...obviously the former scenario...for UAE its 150b worth of investment in desh ,be far more important than dawood....would hand him over in a platter....

Gakkad garu,

You are 100% correct in theory and hypothetically.

Let us talk about facts:

1. The (nominal) GDP of UAE is $338B. How much of it can be invested in India (one of the 180 destinations) at the maximum? You do the math.
2. What is current investment of UAE in India? Check here. It is $1.9B in 2009-10. UAE embassy says it is $5B now.
3. How many Indians live in UAE? 1.75 million. Who has a better leverage - 1.75 million citizens Vs $2B investments that is $1142 per head (Per capita income in India).
4. Where did UAE FDIs get invested?
5. What is Indian FDI into UAE?
6. What is the total public cost of Jet-Etihad deal? What is the cost of 35000 seats permanently going to Etihad airlines? What is the per-seat aiport charges + oil + economic activity opportunity lost to India?
7. What is the trade balance between India and UAE and whose side the balance it tipped?
8. Does India and UAE have reciprocal cultural, immigration and strategic treaties with UAE?
9. What strategic group UAE naturally belongs to? Indic or non-Indic?

and so on...

Yes, we need to trade with UAE and have good relationships. But that doesn't mean we mortgage our national interests with a lilliput nation that UAE is.

and when you have time, please read this
Saudi_Investment_Offer

Saudi Arabia is offering investment opportunities worth $ 625 billion to Indian businessmen in vital sectors such as infrastructure, petrochemicals, electricity, IT, tourism, natural gas production, agriculture and education.
“We had successful meetings with Indian business leaders and executives in New Delhi, Hyderabad and Lucknow,” said Abdul Rahman Al-Rabiah, chairman of Saudi-India Joint Business Council (JBC) who is currently leading a high-level Saudi trade delegation to India.
“It was excellent,” Al-Rabiah told Arab News when asked about the result of the March 5-8 business visit organized by the Federation of India Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FICCI). The Saudi delegation will return to the Kingdom today (Friday).
“The governments of the two countries have done their job of facilitating two-way business engagements. Our relations with India go back hundreds of years. Yet, the results in terms of business exchanges are not to the level we would like to see,” Al-Rabiah told a JBC meeting in New Delhi. I wonder why
Al-Rabiah, who was leading a delegation representing sectors such as fertilizers, pharmaceuticals, housing, power, petrochemicals & refinery, steel, metals, mining and mechanical equipment, urged Indian companies to take advantage of investment and growth opportunities in the Kingdom.
Saudi Arabia is “the youngest nation in the world (67 percent Saudis are below the age of 27) which would need schools, hospitals, industries to meet their growing aspirations.” There is a lot of room for Indian companies with their high technology and experience to participate in the Kingdom’s development, he said, adding that the present $ 400 million Indian investment was insignificant compared with the potential. Carrot on a stick?
Saudi Ambassador to India Saud M. Al-Sati said the two countries should engage in more business and trade by cashing in on the opportunities. He said that between 2000 and 2012, investments by Saudi companies in India were a mere $ 40 billion. This, he added, should rise significantly as Saudi and Indian companies engage with each other and build long-term business partnerships.
Rakesh Bakshi, senior executive committee member, FICCI & chairman & managing director of RRB Energy Ltd., said renewable energy offered tremendous scope for Indian and Saudi companies to work together as “India has the institutional framework and the technology to develop and promote renewables. We do not believe in re-inventing the wheel. Our companies have the know-how and experience to modify the wheel and suit it to your requirements in the most inhospitable of climatic conditions.”
Andhra Pradesh Chief Minister N. Kiran Kumar Reddy also met the Saudi delegation and said his government was looking for larger investments from Saudi Arabia and was keen on mutual cooperation in industrial development. “We’ll extend all incentives and facilities to Saudi industrialists.”
After a power-point presentation by Saudi delegation, the chief minister said his state is the perfect platform for investment with its long coastline, skilled manpower and various incentives being offered by the government. The Saudi delegation invited the chief minister along with industrialists from Andhra Pradesh to visit Saudi Arabia.
Abdul Qader Memon Sait, a member of the managing committee of Saudi Indian Business Network, commended the growing economic relations between the two countries. Speaking to Arab News, he spoke about the plan to woo more than $ 100 billion investment from Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries by India.
“There are billions of riyals of deposits by Saudi individuals remaining idle in Saudi banks, which can be invested in Indian mutual funds and equity market,” Sait said, adding that Saudis would receive profits up to 20 percent for such investments.

archan · Post by **archan** » 06 Sep 2013 19:56

Dhananjay wrote:Why is electronic media showing a pro-Congress bias?
-by Meenakshi Lekhi
| Sep 3, 2013 |

Normally she is good in TV debates but right now I see she is losing it on ABP. She is getting hyper, frustrated, calling people traitors ityadi.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Sep 2013 20:04

The darth vader would be a force that shifted the sides, and we have many Sithlets from KA to Kashmir valley, and from Gujarat to Sundarbans.

LKA was the second gen trying migrate and teleport to 3rd gen, while his predecessor from KA already established the sith fort, but without absolute battleground nor play platform. The darth community is being hit by the phantom menace.. but in reality, (read ramana - if he is right), that master yoda should go down fighting, then nothing but a loss for the Jedi knights.

I think, the story can be re-written, if jedis unite. We can't speilberg for this.. it is in your hands to charter your history.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 06 Sep 2013 20:53

archan wrote:
Dhananjay wrote:Why is electronic media showing a pro-Congress bias?
-by Meenakshi Lekhi
| Sep 3, 2013 |
Normally she is good in TV debates but right now I see she is losing it on ABP. She is getting hyper, frustrated, calling people traitors ityadi.

She needs to delegate. And Bjapa requires more fighters to use in risky campaigns. Unfortunately the rate of production is too low as Bhajapa at the max gets just a single slot in any paid media debate - so can't groom new publicly recognizable talking heads too fast.

Ergo need of the hour is to turn some famous congress camp person or to bring in non politicos like VKS or Kiran Bedi into Bhajapa camp as a BJP ideologue .

Such remarks on traitors would have been perfect if made by VKS while in bjp camp.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 06 Sep 2013 20:55

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Sep 2013 21:12

"a red day, a sword day and 'ere the sun rises" as old king theoden would say.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 06 Sep 2013 21:14

archan wrote:
Dhananjay wrote:Why is electronic media showing a pro-Congress bias?
-by Meenakshi Lekhi
| Sep 3, 2013 |
Normally she is good in TV debates but right now I see she is losing it on ABP. She is getting hyper, frustrated, calling people traitors ityadi.

Actually I believe that is part of tactics. Probably this is the message they want to send out. Underhand is how the underdog fights.

I have seen Javadekar do that at least 3-4 times and he does this interruption thing the best - 'I gave you time to say your piece now let me have mine'. I have also seen Smriti Irani do that on TV at least 3-4 times. Shaina NC too has done that. Kirit Somaya too - ka ka ka kiran!

. Nirmala Sitaraman has the best way of doing that. And it really is effective. Just see the effect. The best effect I have seen is on Rahul Shivsankar. And who can forget the mauling of Rahul Kawal by Smriti Irani

.

I keep forgeting one name but he is great though somewhat forced.

Arun Jaitley, Ravishankar Prasad, Swapan da, Agent Provocateur, Chandan Mitra are gentlemen cadets for English medium.

Syed Shahnawaz Hussain and Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi are gentlemen cadets for Hindi medium.

Then Ashok Malik is the balanced view guy.

Even the SAD man - son of I. K. Gujaral is good. Perhaps he will save his father from Put.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 06 Sep 2013 21:32

RamaY wrote:
gakakkad wrote:>>This is the mindset that we can observe in every single thread on the forum. A member recommends India make civilizational compromises and gives undue and permanent advantage to GCC just to get $2-5B FDI per year,

that is a mis-conception some people have in this forum...well ,let Gelf invest in India..it gives India a leverage over gelf..not other way round

as far as gelf based entities ,financing terrorism and religious fundamentalism is concerned, that is happening even today...banning fdi from gelf won't stop it...it etisalat invests in telecom sector in India ,it ll not benefit terrorism in any conceivable way...in fact if gcc has extremely huge investment in deshland ,it ll be desperate to protect its financial interests ...what more do we want?

imagine dawood in emirates...when do we have a better chance of catching him? UAE having 150 billion worth of hard assets in India. or UAE having been banned from doing business in India...obviously the former scenario...for UAE its 150b worth of investment in desh ,be far more important than dawood....would hand him over in a platter....

Gakkad garu,

You are 100% correct in theory and hypothetically.

Let us talk about facts:

1. The (nominal) GDP of UAE is $338B. How much of it can be invested in India (one of the 180 destinations) at the maximum? You do the math.
2. What is current investment of UAE in India? Check here. It is $1.9B in 2009-10. UAE embassy says it is $5B now.
3. How many Indians live in UAE? 1.75 million. Who has a better leverage - 1.75 million citizens Vs $2B investments that is $1142 per head (Per capita income in India).
4. Where did UAE FDIs get invested?
5. What is Indian FDI into UAE?
6. What is the total public cost of Jet-Etihad deal? What is the cost of 35000 seats permanently going to Etihad airlines? What is the per-seat aiport charges + oil + economic activity opportunity lost to India?
7. What is the trade balance between India and UAE and whose side the balance it tipped?
8. Does India and UAE have reciprocal cultural, immigration and strategic treaties with UAE?
9. What strategic group UAE naturally belongs to? Indic or non-Indic?

and so on...

Explain why each of those parameters matter. Excuse me, but none of them make any sense at all as a direct response to the previous post, and amount to nothing more than rhetoric for the sake of it.

Gakakkad 'gets' it - he explained the basis of leverage here. The more a country or entity has money invested in assets on the ground in India, the more careful they are about not taking on the host. It's directly analogous to temple gold lying in GoI's hands - what's a Gulf entity going to do if GoI refuses their demands - click cut and paste and move their factories away just like that ? They can't - the sunk costs in India become their liability and our asset.

Let me give you the example of PRC - they were once a dirt poor nation with nothing to offer but abundant cheap pliant labor. The powerful Americans and even overseas Chinese were invited to bring their capital. At a superficial level that should have meant that by now PRC would be like Puerto Rico - a US colony. Not quite what happened.

They understood their leverage, knew what they sought and went about building themselves methodically. They just said 'gweilo saar! Overseas cheeni birathers! bliss to come! but bliss to joint-venture with our boor companies because us SYREs don't know anything and want to learn'. A decade+ down the line, those 'boor companies' (which is what Huawei, Haier etc were) had methodically stolen technology and built up their capital base using the foreign capital influx, and turned around to go on a witchhunt against the MNCs while they rapidly built up their own presence.

I hugely respect these guys for what they did - despite starting from a position of great strategic weakness, they parlayed the money-mindedness of the Americans and overseas Chinese, whom they were just years removed from viewing as enemies/traitors, to built themselves. It takes a degree of self-confidence and understanding of where your leverage lies to accomplish that.

I'll even go so far as to say I respect TSP's strategic culture. They embarrass themselves in many ways, much to our amusement. But they always do so by overreaching, and exhibit a great ability to manipulate and punch above their weight. I daresay, several of us secretly admire their chutzpah - how do they shamefacedly get caught holding Osama and then ask for something for continued good behavior in future ? They show a remarkable ability to utilize what little leverage they can summon, and will remain a viable political entity for as long as that strategic culture remains strong. The moment they start thinking fatalistically, they won't last a decade before fracturing into multiple countries.

I find it appalling that posters here suggest that the temple gold be handed over in return for earnest "assurances". Or others stating 'aw shucks, we don't really have much leverage. sarkar can just take it away tomorrow. what to do onlee'. Why bother getting mad at GoI for still doing dossier-giri, handing over Hafiz Saeed or any other analogously egregious act ? This isn't even restricted to one political party. If you think about it, they're doing little different from the kind of things people here suggest - be unwilling to think through the strengths of your position and how to negate your weaknesses, and instead credulously trust the other party to keep his word, justifying it with assorted language as 'dharmic' or whatever. That is naivete wrapped in moral highmindedness.

I'll reiterate what I said - a substantial part of the future can be self fulfilling. If one spends a signficant amount of time and energy individually or collectively bemoaning all the fcukups and finding all possible ways the future could be fcuked up, then the chances are much better that one of those possibilities is exactly what will happen.

It's analogous to what you'll be taught early on in racing class about taking a car around a sharp curve - you look where you are trying to aim the car and NOT where you're worried about crashing it into, because otherwise that's where your hands will subconsciously guide the car to.

If as a group everyone is hell bent on thinking of all the possible ways things can go bad, or why your strong points are really not that strong, I can see where the future will lead. GoI isn't as omnipotent as it is made out to be. It thrives on the confusion and fatalism of the 'dharmic' masses - they're easily manipulated and their collective strength easily explained away by themselves.

As an example, let me take the example of the poster who suggested that GoI could easily take away the temple gold by fiat order and that the gold isn't really much leverage. Seriously, the *same* GoI that seemingly cannot find its own backend with both hands and an illustrated manual in color, when it comes to managing the economy or effectively administering ? Why do people do this - accuse GoI of being a bunch of incompetent duffers in one sentence, then turn around and fearfully portray them as omnipotent overlords in another ? Is the irony of this not apparent to you ?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Sep 2013 21:55

The problem is (imho), that people at large have this strict regimental thoughts and CnC based hierarchy mindsets. Lower down the chain, it is all about executing orders. When $hit hit the fan, and things loosen up.. (see there is blame flame discussion happening even in LCA thread - a tussle between DRDO and IAF), always likes to finger point, and escape.

This is the escapism that established our corruption setup. People shred their responsibilities in participating in removing corruption, and establish a gov setup, where they feel they have answers what they have done for the gov, rather what the gov can do for them.

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 06 Sep 2013 21:57

To add to what Suraj saar says (though it may not be the most relevant thought as far as the temple gold goes): the essence of turning weakness into strength is to do the unthinkable, present the opponent with a fait accompli, and then dare the opponent to do his worst. Examples of this technique:

1) Chini aggression on Indian borders
2) NDA's detonation of nukes in 1998 (big dividends for India from that event - so let's not say that Indians are incapable of game-changing tactics)
3) Chini annexation of Tibet

Of course, one can argue that this is what Hitler did, and subsequently lost big time. However, I submit that Hitler only lost when his opponents did the unthinkable back to him. Declare war, defend at all costs, repay in kind. Ultimately, when both sides do this, it boils down to who is "right"/"dharmic." So if you believe you're the "dharmic" one, then go ahead, do the "unthinkable," change the game to your advantage. Don't use "dharma" to justify your inaction, or to cave in to your opponent.

Exactly what NaMo is doing to the Congis, with devastating effect.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 06 Sep 2013 21:58

Well said, sudarshan.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 06 Sep 2013 22:09

sudarshan ji Namo Namo.

This is going to be my first cross posting to the Best post thread. Esp. considering the admin devata warnings about the longevity of this thread.

You probably consider your axioms effort the best. But this is inspired performance.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 06 Sep 2013 22:13

Singha wrote:"a red day, a sword day and 'ere the sun rises" as old king theoden would say.

You bring emotion without any smilies. Hope the folks here don't get disappointed if the inevitable decision is delayed as well.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 06 Sep 2013 22:14

i believe in Muhurta, I hope they see these things..

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Sep 2013 22:15

Suraj garu,

That is the difference in PoV. Please do not jump around.

Naturally Gakkad garu didn't get my point. No one said ban FDI from UAE (which Gakkad garu extrapolated from thin-air). All we asked to that poster in west-asia thread is not to mortgage Indian Interests for few $. Or in other words, Is the price asked from India in return for FDI proportional? We never got a straight answer but remarks about cheddiwalahs.

The best leverage UAE have against India is the 1.75m Indians and their immigration status. Imagine what happens when UAE, for whatever reasons, asks 10% of them leave their country. How much of UAE investments in India re needed to counter that pressure?

For example, look at what is happening for KSA declared that the illegal immigrants have to leave.

Why are you, with all your knowledge about leverage, not talking about asking for change in GCC immigration laws?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 06 Sep 2013 22:30

What is 'Indian interests' in this context ? If we have 1.7m people in the UAE, we should do everything possible to enable them to invest as much money as possible in fixed assets in India as possible - roads, bridges, buildings, the works. And when they threaten Indians there, simply respond, "about that $100 billion you have invested in India, well you can forget about that." That investment is the fait accompli. As sudarshan succinctly put it, you respond to something from them by threatening the maximal damage, and work your way down as they back down.

That's what PRC does. They hold >$1trillion in US treasuries. They threaten the 'nuclear option' - sell it all. In reality, that's absolutely laughable nonsense - they'll lose almost all their money by flooding the market with so much supply. But no, what happens is that their mere statement spooks the markets and gains some US compliance. That's a brilliant use of leverage and bluff.

RamaY wrote:Why are you, with all your knowledge about leverage, not talking about asking for change in GCC immigration laws?

Why would they ? Seriously, if you're an Arab sheikh who has little invested in India and lots of desis working basically as coolies for you, and India asks you to change your immigration laws, would you ? Why on earth would you ? Now, if you count a substantial fraction of your net worth in a bunch of roads, bridges and buildings in India, would you ?

RamaY wrote:How much of UAE investments in India re needed to counter that pressure?

Is this how you prefer to view it ? "Oh no, they only have $10 billion invested in India. That's not much of this 'leverage' for us. I better wait until longer. I wonder how much that $5 billion is good. What is sheikh saar asks for that money back ? Would I have to sell my wife to pay him back ?"

Boss, if you're worried that they're going to **** is over one way or the other, you'll view every action on their part as just that. Why waste so much mental energy worrying about that ? You're doing their job for them. Do your job, or dharma if you prefer, instead - focus on getting their money invested in India and how to use it against them in every possible way.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 06 Sep 2013 22:33

Re. Doctor sahabs reply to RamaY ji

YamaR ji now you know why it is bad to chase people around on Nukkad. And I would request you to go slow. This could also be a plan.

/jokes off/

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 06 Sep 2013 22:34

Basically - learn to play hardball.

Ravi_g - can't but help think of what you wrote earlier. Some guy will take one of your posts to "Good Posts" to get you hooked, and then leave you dangling for all eternity. But I was already hooked, so what's a little dangle till the end of time

.

But thanks, Suraj and Ravi saars.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Sep 2013 22:42

Suraj - What compromises India already made to get that $5B was my question. The $5B investments were after the fact. India already made those concessions in different formats. India already paid the price for that $5B.

Those 1.7m indians send at least $2-3B a year to their families. We are already getting their FDI, directly into Indian families whichi is more efficient than NREGA+FSB combined.

Now It is up to GoI to decide whether it wants to spend their share (1.7m Indians) for them by offering better immigration facilities, or buying some real-estate in UAE and build living quarters for them and so on. This is where GoI is failing. Instead GoI is "facilitating" Jet/Etihad type deals filling its pockets. And our resident experts claim it is a victory of Indian foresightedness.

Imagine GoI buys a residential project in UAE (directly or indirectly) over say 2x2 sq.km (Dubai is 460sq.km) using some of the $20+b expat money and slowly increase its strategic foot print there. That would be a proper leverage.

Only dreamers expect 100s of $B FDI from UAE, whose PPP GDP is $270B.

When you have time pls read this - http://www.7daysindubai.com/Indian-expa ... story.html

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Sep 2013 22:45

ravi_g wrote:

Re. Doctor sahabs reply to RamaY ji

YamaR ji now you know why it is bad to chase people around on Nukkad. And I would request you to go slow. This could also be a plan.

/jokes off/

Which one? Know nothing or C-130?

Yep. couldn't control... every time i see Rao gari name.. it made me chuckle.. i think i know him and he wouldnt take my comment in -ve sense... Am I right Rao garu? My apologies if I offended you.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 06 Sep 2013 22:58

Saudi and UAE and Kuwait and Qatar are all similar with huge pockets and have tendency to play their own games. Investments in India may be big for India but not big for these sheiks.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Sep 2013 23:25

^^that is the 'sudharshan' mantra we need.. just do it!

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 06 Sep 2013 23:53

sudarshan wrote: Of course, one can argue that this is what Hitler did, and subsequently lost big time. However, I submit that Hitler only lost when his opponents did the unthinkable back to him. Declare war, defend at all costs, repay in kind. Ultimately, when both sides do this, it boils down to who is "right"/"dharmic." So if you believe you're the "dharmic" one, then go ahead, do the "unthinkable," change the game to your advantage. Don't use "dharma" to justify your inaction, or to cave in to your opponent.

Exactly what NaMo is doing to the Congis, with devastating effect.

Just one minor observation, saar. Hitler tried to do too much too fast - played his brinkmanship once too often. He should have played one bit at a time, and chosen his opponents carefully. He should have played to his advantages, and carefully isolated his opponents and then picked them off, one by one, as opportunity offered. His brinkmanship over the Sudetanland in Czechoslovakia itself was fraught with peril and he escaped without hurt only because of the spinelessness of Chamberlain. He should have realised just how close to disaster he was over Czech. He did not, pushed for the occupation of all of Czechoslovakia, grabbed Memel from Lithuania, and then started a war with Poland over the Polish corridor and Danzig - all in a space of one year! No wonder his enemies were all worried and ready to defend themselves and others.

By the way, this is the same mistake China is making. They are picking on everyone in their neighbourhood at once, in the entire arc from Japan to India, and have only a broken backed Pakistan and a perpetually famine struck North Korea as allies. India should have taken the diplomatic initiative, and worked an alliance of everyone threatened by China into a network. But this requires putting our money where our mouth is. India has given little, and unsurprisingly, has received little from our neighbours. Why would anyone take India that is not willing to defend its own borders, or be willing to get into an alliance with others threatened by China seriously? Let us forget the US for the moment - we have plenty of bad history with the US. How about telling Philippines that we recognise Scarborough shoal as their territory, in exchange for their acknowledgement that all of Kashmir (including Chinese occupied Aksai Chin) is Indian territory? What about Vietnam - are we willing to back their claim to Paracel? Japan is pushing for an alliance and when pushed, they have the guts to stand up to anyone. Will our MMS do the same and get into an alliance with Japan - Senkaku is Japanese in exchange for Kashmir being Indian? Whenever China violates our border, what happens if we, in conjunction with Indonesia, seize a Chinese ship or two in the Malacca straits (we can come up with infinite pretexts for doing this) and say we are inspecting it all, and will release it when our investigation is over? How about being really bold and allowing Taiwan to establish full diplomatic relations with India? Or telling His Holiness Dalai Lama that we recognise his government as the real Tibetan government in exile?

As Suraj-ji said, it requires being bold. A full alliance of all threatened states against China will compel them to back down - even China cannot fight all of them at once (and they know it too). Will we have the courage to do it?

member_27444 · Post by **member_27444** » 06 Sep 2013 23:58

Deleted to keep with topic fidelity

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Sep 2013 00:00

but within the context this thread, both china and pakis are within desh. how do you classify your neighbor?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 07 Sep 2013 00:03

RamaY: GDP is not a barometer of UAE's investable assets. Their sovereign wealth funds alone hold >$800 billion. The analogy is the example of you having - for example - an income of $100K and 10% savings rate. That doesn't mean you have just $10K to invest - you may have $1m accumulated.

Buying property in UAE gives THEM leverage, not us, because it's our money sunk into their land.

archan · Post by **archan** » 07 Sep 2013 00:05

Thread is moving away from its title. Folks, keep the unrelated posts to a minimum or take them to other threads.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 07 Sep 2013 00:17

The idea is about as much independence as possible.

In discussion on economic threads and oil and natural gas thread, there are posts from me about how BP gained % share in Indian oil&NG discoveries due to exclusive tech. Along with BoDirector membership, this also is then made into 'internationalization' of the entire field. The desi corporation who formed JV with BP has pushed for internationalization of pricing structure for its oil and gas fields.

Now Oil and Natural Gas is not more than 5% of core tech but its effects are huge overall.

All core industries as well as other ones thus affect the whole economy overall.

I will paste links for the discussions tomorrow.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Sep 2013 00:54

Suraj wrote:RamaY: GDP is not a barometer of UAE's investable assets. Their sovereign wealth funds alone hold >$800 billion. The analogy is the example of you having - for example - an income of $100K and 10% savings rate. That doesn't mean you have just $10K to invest - you may have $1m accumulated.

Buying property in UAE gives THEM leverage, not us, because it's our money sunk into their land.

Got it. Forgot about it. Thx

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Sep 2013 02:38

Suraj wrote:Gakakkad 'gets' it - he explained the basis of leverage here. The more a country or entity has money invested in assets on the ground in India, the more careful they are about not taking on the host. It's directly analogous to temple gold lying in GoI's hands - what's a Gulf entity going to do if GoI refuses their demands - click cut and paste and move their factories away just like that ? They can't - the sunk costs in India become their liability and our asset.

The fundamental thing that is a premise per the above is that the GOI is some sort of monolithic entity which serves the nation as versus the reality of what it is today, a cabal of different interest groups, aligned to different centers of power. Please look at how aircraft from a certain firm (I am trying to be a bit careful here) were purchased, controversially, for a certain airline which is run nationally, and during the tenure of a certain minister who is widely credited (but rarely reported) to have run that airline/airlines into the ground. Sir, this is a country, where a BSNL internet exchange was located in a ministers house and was being used to piggyback his own TV channel. Similarly, the quantum of scams is enormous. Now, if you study our defence issues in depth, an inescapable conclusion comes, that many sectors are deliberately allowed to languish, so that the import gravy train continues (since they come with a markup which goes as commissions).

In this environment, whats going to happen is that when an aforesaid Gulf entity comes to India with a lot of money, and its officially allowed, enough vultures in our current system will gather around to take a pick off of that money, and in return be ever willing to compromise on Indian national interests for that money. If you think I am being rhetorical or fear mongering, I am not. As far back as 2001, in a certain city, madrassas sponsored by the baap-dada of the Gulf (KSA) were propping up. It was well known to locals (and the cops) that messing with those guys was not allowed, and they had near complete immunity to any actions. A decade later, the near complete radicalization and ghettoization of many of those areas is complete.

Point is the Indian state now, for all purposes has huge interest groups within, whose only purpose is accumulation of personal wealth and power, and they can and will suborn any national aim to get what they want. Opening the doors to these folks without huge safeguards is to ask for trouble. BTW, a point that you made that the current folks are so incompetent that they can't even manage the economy ... I would differ here.. Of course they can.
But they dont want to. Populist measures mean they retain power, economy be damned, as the majority of the voting public is from rural areas per their calculations. A sold out MSM and constant messaging of global troubles etc is used to regulate the ire of the city folks. Meanwhile, by doing a scorched earth on the economy, they ensure whosoever comes in has a crisis on their hands, and if its a confused coalition, even better.
By remaining in power, they can loot like there is no tomorrow, allowing crony capitalists to make as much money as possible, while selling off whatever is possible.
Its a pretty sophisticated operation, and to be honest, governance is nowhere on their charter. Making money is.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 07 Sep 2013 03:40

archan wrote: Normally she is good in TV debates but right now I see she is losing it on ABP. She is getting hyper, frustrated, calling people traitors ityadi.

Yes she discussed here how the debate is always tilted in favour of congress by media:

Maybe its getting irritating for her or maybe its a strategy that first she has built a reputation as a capable debater and when she lets it loose from time to time people will understand and awaken to media game.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 07 Sep 2013 06:02

Nielson has a new survey. Can anyone post the PDF please.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 07 Sep 2013 06:52

fanne wrote:Nielson has a new survey. Can anyone post the PDF please.

Some details about the Nielsen survey. Could not find any pdf, though.

http://www.palpalindia.com/2013/09/06/n ... 19167.html

PS: The article is in Hindi.

Added:
http://www.indiatvnews.com/politics/nat ... 12366.html
The English version of the survey.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 07 Sep 2013 07:17

Those are old surveys. Nelson does survey every 6 months in 28 cities, approx 9000 ppl. The latest is out today.Hindi by tag looks recent, browser having trouble opening it.