Artillery Discussion Thread

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 04 Sep 2013 19:36

I think a new titanium sponge processing plant was opened in Kerala. HAL too has made many titanium products for ISRO.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 04 Sep 2013 19:39

Gurneesh wrote:Having said that, it makes no sense to mass produce M777 when we have better products in the pipeline (like the OFB 45cal or the Kalayani gun). M777 in limited numbers is fine for mountain corps but for road accessible areas conventional guns with shoot and scoot capabilities and better firing range (higher range) will be better. No need to get expensive ultralight guns when the heavier gun will perform better.

A helicopter movable gun is not irrelevant in plains. Consider in war TSP is pushing hard at some sector, IA can lift couple of M-777 there in a matter of hrs and pound them hard. That could be a game changer. I think not as a replacement to other artillery guns, but as an add-on IA should include some for western front as well. In case of conflict with China same can be utilized in east.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 04 Sep 2013 19:42

putnanja wrote:I think a new titanium sponge processing plant was opened in Kerala. HAL too has made many titanium products for ISRO.

you are right. KMML does produce titanium sponge but not enough. production to be enhanced from 500tons/yr to 1000tons/yr.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ind ... 468315.ece

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 626554.ece

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 04 Sep 2013 21:52

Septimus P. wrote:I think the M-777 deal will have 145 supplied from factory in US and over 1000 assembeled locally

This article was posted here earlier throws some light on the overall artillery modernization plan, on the numbers of the various types we plan to induct and their estimated cost.

The other 155mm52-calibre artillery projects, in the overall Rs 30,000 crore artillery modernization plan, include the purchase of 100 self-propelled tracked guns from a foreign vendor and the development of 814 mounted gun systems through a joint venture with the private sector.

But the biggest one is the over Rs 12,000-crore project to buy 400 towed artillery guns, followed by indigenous manufacture of another 1,180 such guns after transfer of technology from the foreign vendor.

The total requirement is 2500+ guns and an estimated cost(i.e the amount we plan to allocate) of 30,000 crores, an average of 11-12 Cr per gun. The money allocated (30,000 crore) is going to remain constant. Each M777 cost around 40 Cr(at "India Special Price" and $/Re at 65) => if we choose to spend the entire amount of 30,000 cr on just the M777s we will get only 750 guns(as against the requirement 2500+).
This is not just a big rip-off. Buying the M777 in greater numbers will such funds out of convention towed, wheeled and tracked guns which are more capable. Our artillery forces will be worse off.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Sep 2013 22:07

I think the M-777 deal will have 145 supplied from factory in US and over 1000 assembeled locally

I am betting that India is going to invade China.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 04 Sep 2013 22:56

No India will invade Tibet.

Garooda · Post by **Garooda** » 04 Sep 2013 23:45

nik wrote:Still trying to figure out why this is 'not' high street robbery:
US Price between ~ 0.7 to 1.87 Million USD (http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1943.html)
India Special Old price ~ 700 million for 145 = 4.83 Million USD (260% more)
India Special New price ~ 885 million for 145 = 6.10 Million USD (326% more)
By the time the ink dries on this, it will be 1 billion. Everyone seems to gravitate towards one billion dollar plus tag.

The price or overhead also includes desi babus rishvat. Contract dilvaane ke liey

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 05 Sep 2013 01:31

Some points of interest on M777 procurement
M777A2 - deagel

IOC: 2005
Total Production: 1,240
Unitary Cost: USD$4.6 million{x1.05 ~ 4.83}
Also Known As: M777, M777A1 (production standard through July 2007), M777E1 and XM777

Indian deal details

On 22 January 2010 the Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notified the US Congress of a possible foreign military sale (FMS) to India of 145 M777 155mm light-weight towed howitzers with laser inertial artillery pointing systems (LINAPS) and associated equipment, training and logistical support for a complete package worth approximately $647 million.

Australian Government Approves $493 Million Procurement Project for M777A2 155mm Howitzers

The Australian Minister for Defence, Senator John Faulkner, today announced that the Government has given Second Pass Approval for a $493 million project to provide the next generation artillery system for the Australian Army.

Senator Faulkner said the first phase of Land 17 (the Artillery Replacement Project) will provide the Army with four batteries of 35 M777A2 155mm Lightweight Towed Howitzers.

So that is 4 x 35 = 140 for a total of $493 mil @ $3.52 mil. a piece. Now it is not stated what all is part of the package.

Australia - M777A2 155mm Lightweight Howitzers - Older news from the US side

WASHINGTON -- The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Australia of M777A2 155mm Light-Weight Howitzers as well as associated equipment and services.

The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $248 million.

The Government of Australia has requested a possible sale of 57 M777A2 155mm Light-Weight Howitzers, 57 AN/VRC-91F Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio Systems (SINCGARS), integration, spare and repair parts, support and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, maintenance, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $248 million.

So here the unit price was stated as ~ $4.35 mil.

The Indian deal is stated for the complete package whatever that means. The Aussies seem to have gone for a lighter package based on the initial and the final price. Just my 1 mangled old paisa ...

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 05 Sep 2013 03:22

I am completely befuddled by the acquisition plans of the Armed forces. They should be defending and making India strong, not hollowing us by raking huge import bills (This is like your 16 year old going to a strip bar with your debit card).

OFB 155 mm gun with avg. 50% import content = 11 crores a piece for an order of 114 units

OFB 155 mm gun with 15% import content = 8 crores (assuming 50% cost reduction by import substitution, no substancial mass manufacturing savings from http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... y-kinetics)

30,000 crores = 3,750 guns

China and Pakistan borders length is 3380 + 2912 = 6292 Kms.

We will have approx. 4000 guns (counting current inventory) >> A gun every 1.5 kms to bomb any encroaching 'cockroaches' back in to their trashcans. Why do I need to have helicopters to lift fancy light beauties and all such gizmos to a battlefield filled with anti air missiles and zero assurance of air superiority. That is a suicidal mission >> Learning from Kargil helicopter losses. I really want a gun every km along Paki border to bomb these parasite infested rodents back to their holes. Start firing every time something crosses, ask questions later.

Employment Impact: Direct employment for 10,000 employees and indirectly 30,000 INDIANS >> 40,000 men >> 1,20,000 lakhs individuals sustained with three person family (some guesswork here but believe close to real numbers)

Signal Value: The PLAGF ( China) maintains 10,000 artillery pieces (Wiki). Assume 50 % are 155mm ~ 5000 pieces. Their fat dumb brains understand counting ONLY and will think twice if we field 4000 pieces of 155 mm guns << not 150 fancy lightweight toys. Remember that they can drive up to the border while we cannot. So deploy now and not when the war begins.

Export Potential: Yes...not Importing or a foreign partner for everything (underwear, banyan...why not import them too). This one needs shock treatment.

Regarding the fancy LINAPS by SELEX >> This can be retrofitted to any gun. Check out http://www.army-technology.com/news/new ... ple-armies

Truck mounted guns >> How darn difficult it is to make a gun truck mounted << Really Guys. For beginners check http://www.sinodefence.com/army/artille ... _155mm.asp

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 05 Sep 2013 03:27

Had to post this one from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M777_howitzer:

India
The Indian Army has also announced plans to acquire 145 guns for INR30 billion (US$477 million),[23] but purchase plans were overtaken when the procurement process was restarted in July 2010. India's Ministry of Defence cleared the proposal for buying 145 guns for $660 million on 11 May 2012 through the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route of the US government.[24] This would be put up before the Ministry of Finance for clearance and will subsequently be taken up by the Cabinet Committee on Security for final approval.[25][26] On 2 August 2013, India requested the sale of 145 M777 howitzers for $885 million.[27]

477 Million in 2010 >> 660 Million in 2012 >> 885 Million in 2013

The BRITISH scumbags are adept at playing with the Indian mindset.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Sep 2013 04:28

The BRITISH scumbags are adept at playing with the Indian mindset.

Errrrrrrrrr........ It is a US FMS deal.

Having said that British scumbags ............. OK.

mody · Post by **mody** » 05 Sep 2013 12:56

Day Dreaming about our Artillery acquisition for the next 10-15 years:

Import
BAE M-777 - 145 nos. from US through FMS route.

Work for OFB
OFB 155 mm/45 Cal Guns - 420 Order
M-46 130 mm Gun Upgrade to 155mm/45 cal - 420 nos (180 already upgraded using Soltam Kits)
Older Bofors 155mm/39 cal guns upgraded, as and when needed to 155 mm/45 cal.

Gun Carriage Factory, takes over Jabalpur vehicles factory and and both establishments, try to finish the above workload.
Assembly of Stallion Trucks and any other vehicles at Vehicles Factory Jabalpur stopped and Ashok Leyland supplies the fully manufactured trucks.

Kalyani Forge:
ON successful development of 155mm/52 cal gun based on the Austrian Gun: 820 nos. Order.

Tata
Use the OFB 155mm/45 cal gun to mount on Tata Truck chassis or go with the current Denel 155/52 cal gun on Tata chassis
-Order for 400 Guns.

L&T
Place Order for L&T Wheeled Self Propelled Gun. based on the Korean Gun - 200 nos.

DRDO
Use the Kalyani 155mm/52 gun and develop the Self Propelled Tracked gun based on the Arjun Chassis.
The turret design from the Bhim project is already available to do this fast.
Order For 180 nos. Manufacturing of vehicle at Avadi and integration of Gun with turret and chassis at Kalyani.

Shells
OFB Nalanda starts full scale production of DRDO developed BMS 155 mm shells for use with all artillery.

While I'm day dreaming, might as well as add, 12,000 nos. order for new Indian IFV, developed in a joint effort between DRDO and Private Players. Use the old American model, that the winning design from private player, gets 60% of the order, while the loosing private players, also get 40% of the order to manufacture IFV, as per the winning design.

BEML to stop producing Tatra trucks and given the job to Upgrade BMP-1 and BMP-2's in the IA inventory, using upgrade package designed by DRDO. New engine for the upgrade to be based on engine developed by private industry for the IFV project.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 06 Sep 2013 01:46

And what are we going to do with all those guns? Have 250 gun salute after Chai-Biscoot sessions?

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 06 Sep 2013 02:37

Does not make sense to have so many versions of 155mm guns (unless you were transferred from Air-force and many small deals means more avenues of earning commissions). This touting of 30,000 crores acquisition is to attract foreign arms dealers and make commissions $$$. It's going to be a sell-off to one giving most commissions.

The count will be

Towed/Airlifted: M777, OFB 155mm/45 , M-46 155mm/45, Austrian Gun through Kalyani Forge, Denel Gun 155/52 Cal
Tracked: Korean Gun, DRDO-Arjun Chassis tracked

We paid handsomely for Bofors and should capitalize by making local versions\upgrades.

Towed - 155mm Guns made by OFB (sell them to Kalyani Forge or Tata). Can upgrade these with Desi/Hacked LINAPS stuff
Tracked: DRDO-Arjun Chassis (made by L&T)

We need to learn from US, about narrowing down on a few choices and mass producing to keep costs down (and employ locals).

Add: A slush fund for entertaining and foreign shopping trips

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 06 Sep 2013 02:52

NRao wrote:
The BRITISH scumbags are adept at playing with the Indian mindset.
Errrrrrrrrr........ It is a US FMS deal.

Having said that British scumbags ............. OK.

The US FMS stuff is thin makeup, Track the flow of money and it is 100 % BAE+Italian job.

BAE is a British firm and Selex is Italian (for Linaps http://www.casr.ca/bg-artillery-155mm-m777.htm) .

Our love for corrupt Italians and British does not go away...All this Chinese encroachment is to feed the Arms deals. We have enough tech within our country to match the Chinese. Have to spend money wisely, work hard and build capabilities internally or become another Greece

Time to explode a Nuke in Pokhran fella's (or make the Rupee crash further)

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 06 Sep 2013 02:54

Also think about lowering weight of guns using composite or layering surface using nano tech or layered addons for increasing service life/reduced turn around time etc.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 06 Sep 2013 03:15

"composite or layering surface using nano tech or layered addons" (don't forget using a shoestring budget) >> This will be part of army's requirement for DRDO if M777 deal and imports get killed. If this deal does not go through, it will be really really hard to tell Wifey that the foreign shopping trip is cancelled (pardon my humor here).

A low weight gun is of no use unless you can assure 100% air superiority over a battlefield to move it by air. Does anyone buy in to IAF maintaining US level of air superiority against Chinese aggression. China is no Iraq or Libya or Afghanistan.

Flying a Chinook with M777 underneath and ammunition on board within 25 Kms of a war zone is suicidal. And how do you keep it moving afterwards? It's not like we will be trench fighting like World war I.

Guys, I am not a strategist, nor do I have connections with Armed forces or chaiwallas. Just trying to figure out how this will play out in an actual war and make it very expensive for the other side to start one.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Sep 2013 04:40

nik wrote: The US FMS stuff is thin makeup, Track the flow of money and it is 100 % BAE+Italian job.

BAE is a British firm and Selex is Italian (for Linaps http://www.casr.ca/bg-artillery-155mm-m777.htm) .

Our love for corrupt Italians and British does not go away...

1) Please check out how FMS works. IF it is a thin makeup, then it is for all FMS products - all nations using FMS (like the JSF) face the same "thin makeup" (whatever that is I am not sure)

2) BAE is NOT an entirely British company any more. And, even if it were the process is still via FMS

I suspect you are not familiar with FMS. By saying that it is "thin makeup", you are actually accusing the heads (or some leaders way up there) of the two states of whatever you are thinking they are doing.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Sep 2013 05:06

vishvak wrote:Also think about lowering weight of guns using composite or layering surface using nano tech or layered addons for increasing service life/reduced turn around time etc.

I think there was news last month about SOKO having hreat breakthrough in this field. May be they can make special light version of K9.... For IA.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Sep 2013 13:18

We should rename this thread as 'My Fancy Thoughts on Artillery' thread.

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Sep 2013 13:45

i guess one x tra large exercise by IA with IAF along the arunachal border with china similar to operation brasstacks in Rajasthan will go a long way in mending indo china ties

but OT

rohitvats wrote:We should rename this thread as 'My Fancy Thoughts on Artillery' thread.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 06 Sep 2013 16:09

Jhujar wrote:
vishvak wrote:Also think about lowering weight of guns using composite or layering surface using nano tech or layered addons for increasing service life/reduced turn around time etc.
I think there was news last month about SOKO having hreat breakthrough in this field. May be they can make special light version of K9.... For IA.

Jhujar ji, can you provide the link.

vishvak ji, what was it that you were thinking. Titanium Carbide? Tungsten Carbide?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 06 Sep 2013 16:25

A post in off topic thread to note.

koti · Post by **koti** » 06 Sep 2013 19:04

nik wrote:A low weight gun is of no use unless you can assure 100% air superiority over a battlefield to move it by air. Does anyone buy in to IAF maintaining US level of air superiority against Chinese aggression. China is no Iraq or Libya or Afghanistan.

You don't need air superiority for that. Remember that Helo casvac is done far closer and sometimes beyond the front lines. It is not safe for the helos but it is not a deal breaker either.
M777 weighs 3.5 tonnes. That is less then a third of a FH77 which is a 11.5 tonner.

Now, more importantly, Gun Carriage Factory Jabalpur received an order for 150 new 105mm IFG to be employed by the two new divisions as a stop gap till they get more firepower. That is the M777 which weighs the same as the IFG/LFG. This is going to be a sharp capability enhancement from 105 to 155mm with a minimal increase in logistic footprint and flexibility.

Finally, No, more regular 155mm guns can't do what an M777 can do for the mountain divisions, especially more so for the newer strike corps. The only crib I have about the M777 is the price, but never its relevance for IA.

vic · Post by **vic** » 06 Sep 2013 21:54

We can also name this Thread - Import lobby abuses any rational argument for indigenisation of artillery by name calling and trolling.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 06 Sep 2013 22:26

[quote="koti"]
You don't need air superiority for that. Remember that Helo casvac is done far closer and sometimes beyond the front lines. It is not safe for the helos but it is not a deal breaker either.[quote="koti"]
>> casvac is one of the most dangerous military missions, literally taking on the worst odds for a small team to get in and out fast. Imagine doing this same mission with a HUGE helicopter like Chinook and a gun underneath. We might as well start chanting last rites for these folks (humor added).

[quote="koti"]M777 weighs 3.5 tonnes. That is less then a third of a FH77 which is a 11.5 tonner. [quote="koti"]
>> Just look visually at these two pieces of equipment. Take away the APC and all 'mobility'+'automation' paranelphia of FH77 (make it a naked gun) and you will have a M777 without titanium alloys. My guess is 5 tonnes at most. That's how M777 was developed anyways. Someone needs to get his lazy ass off and do the necessary here. At this point, I will hold the Army accountable for not even trying a simple exercise (they are short of 155mm guns so dismantling one must be scary enough) .

[quote="koti"]Finally, No, more regular 155mm guns can't do what an M777 can do for the mountain divisions, especially more so for the newer strike corps. [quote="koti"]
>> A strike force is mobile unit. M777 is as mobile as a turtle lying upside down (Humor getting better). Strike forces need truck mounted FH77 or tracked FH77...

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 06 Sep 2013 22:38

After all this posts...I need a break. Here is my summary:

M777 acquisition is akin to buying stale morning tawa fried Idli in the evening, for a premium from the same restaurant (BAE).

We bought the idli in the morning (BOFORS now owned by BAE)>> FH77
Now, we are going to buy the same idli in the evening (BAE)>> M777
Tawa fried >> Titanium .

Even a dumbo can see this through: BAE just added a '7' to make FH77 in to M777

.

The British will be laughing their pants off on India once we sign this deal. What can one say if someone falls for the same trick twice (Stupid)

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 06 Sep 2013 22:47

nik wrote:[=>quote="koti"]M777 weighs 3.5 tonnes. <snip>[=>quote="koti"]
<snip> and you will have a M777 without titanium alloys. My guess is 5 tonnes at most. <snip>

Let us agree with you guess for a moment but how is a 5 ton thing better than a 3.5 ton thing as far as mobility is concerned? I agree with you, folks need to get off their lazy asses and do some basic thinking at least.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 07 Sep 2013 00:08

NRao wrote: 1) Please check out how FMS works. IF it is a thin makeup, then it is for all FMS products - all nations using FMS (like the JSF) face the same "thin makeup" (whatever that is I am not sure)

2) BAE is NOT an entirely British company any more. And, even if it were the process is still via FMS

I suspect you are not familiar with FMS. By saying that it is "thin makeup", you are actually accusing the heads (or some leaders way up there) of the two states of whatever you are thinking they are doing.

Clearly we are paying much more than the US for these guns, So how can one say with absolute certainty there is no possibility of impropriety?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 07 Sep 2013 00:26

Does Bofors licence permit us, now or did earlier, any clarity on composite/light-weight development. Any gyaan could be welcome.

koti · Post by **koti** » 07 Sep 2013 01:32

nik wrote:Just look visually at these two pieces of equipment. Take away the APC and all 'mobility' paranelphia of FH77 (make it a naked gun) and you will have a M777 without titanium alloys. My guess is 5 tonnes at most. That's how M777 was developed anyways. Someone needs to get his lazy ass off and do the necessary here. At this point, I will hold the Army accountable for not even trying a simple exercise (they are short of 155mm guns so dismantling one must be scary enough) .

If that was the case then IA need not do that, BAE, those how could profit would have offered us one loong ago.

nik wrote:A strike force is mobile unit. M777 is as mobile as a turtle lying upside down (Humor getting better). Strike forces need truck mounted FH77 or tracked FH77...

The point I wanted to make is that it is as mobile as IFG. Now, if only you have a point against the use of IFG/LFG by the Mountain Strike Corps. And what you have said is definitely true for RAPIDs.

nik wrote: casvac is one of the most dangerous military missions, literally taking on the worst odds for a small team to get in and out fast. Imagine doing this same mission with a HUGE helicopter
like Chinook and a gun underneath. We might as well start chanting last rites for these folks (humor added).

OT and yes. That doesn't mean these divisions will be at an advantage having not transportable Artillery then having those capable of heli deployment.

I want to stress my point again. The UL-Howithers have an obvious operational advantage. Their cost OTOH is something I can comment on, on a cost per value basis.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 07 Sep 2013 06:39

India is trying to and must achieve a qualitative edge to offset the huge advantage in numbers enjoyed by the ChiPak combo. Since we know we can't compete on numbers, our thinking has (thankfully) undergone a radical change with the creation of a dedicated strike element focused on attacking deep inside Tibet and PoK rather than merely beating off attacks at the border. This variant of Cold Start is bound to give the enemy brown chaddis because they have no counter. But instead of finding some cheer in these developments, we have a curious bunch on BRF who are arguing against this shift on the flimsiest of grounds. The M777 and Chinooks give our mountain strike corps a huge advantage and they are the prime targets. These posters suggest that 145 howitzers via FMS for a very specialized niche role is a waste in the overall modernization scheme of 3,000+ guns! To spice up this rubbish, they go to the extent of suggesting that our armed forces are corrupt, FMS be damned, since we can buy twice the number (of much heavier guns) from the OFB instead, niche role be damned.

As soon as there is a weapons crunch, we can depend on the DPSUs to suddenly and miraculously pull out a similar-looking weapon from their musharaff to stall a purchase, then delay the weapon for decades and cripple the forces. They are assisted in their deconstruction plans by worthies like AS. No wonder our officers consider the DPSUs to be the paki secret weapon.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 07 Sep 2013 08:28

Victor: We can compete on numbers if we make things ourselves. Buying 1/4rd the amount of guns for the same money is stupidity raised infinite times over.

As far as the DPSU and OFB goes, give them an order of 3000 guns within 4 years before crying hoarse about how bad they are. 150 guns or 300 guns is BS. At least, try Privatizing them and see the magic work. This is like hating your sibling so much that you end up giving his lunch to others.

If we cannot get serious and sort this out, then might as well roll down the Indian Flag and roll up a mishmash of UK+US+Russian+France+Israel in Delhi. Yeah and get ready to beg the day the war starts and be treated like dogs! As if 900 years of slavery was not enough to drill a few bits of common sense!

Pardon me if I am going overboard, but need to step it up.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Sep 2013 08:43

abhik wrote:
NRao wrote: 1) Please check out how FMS works. IF it is a thin makeup, then it is for all FMS products - all nations using FMS (like the JSF) face the same "thin makeup" (whatever that is I am not sure)

2) BAE is NOT an entirely British company any more. And, even if it were the process is still via FMS

I suspect you are not familiar with FMS. By saying that it is "thin makeup", you are actually accusing the heads (or some leaders way up there) of the two states of whatever you are thinking they are doing.
Clearly we are paying much more than the US for these guns, So how can one say with absolute certainty there is no possibility of impropriety?

Find out why they are paying more.

Like I said the problem is you do not understand FMS.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 07 Sep 2013 09:35

FMS is a black box. I can only verify based on value points established by prior deals. Any links will help but cannot invest more time in this pro-bono blogging.

At the end of the day, BAE gave a proposal which was routed through FMS. What is stopping this firm from giving any kickbacks on the side. The price hikes is clearly beating any inflation measure (not counting Zimbabwe inflation index)

In-fact, I don't care about kickbacks either. Just give India the same $ deal which the US Marines and Army got!

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 07 Sep 2013 10:09

nik wrote:FMS is a black box. I can only verify based on value points established by prior deals. Any links will help but cannot invest more time in this pro-bono blogging.

At the end of the day, BAE gave a proposal which was routed through FMS. What is stopping this firm from giving any kickbacks on the side. The price hikes is clearly beating any inflation measure (not counting Zimbabwe inflation index)

In-fact, I don't care about kickbacks either. Just give India the same $ deal which the US Marines and Army got!

In one of my previous post on current page onleee. Just need to scroll up a bit for the full.
[=>quote="pankajs"]Some points of interest on M777 procurement
M777A2 - deagel

IOC: 2005
Total Production: 1,240
Unitary Cost: USD$4.6 million{x1.05 ~ 4.83}
<snip>

[=>/quote]

Here is Another link on the latest Aussie deal.
Australia opts for more towed howitzers - Dated: Oct 19, 2012

Australia has approved the purchase of 19 more lightweight towed howitzers for around $72 million.{i.e 72/19 ~ $3.8 mil per unit}

The latest order is on top of the October 2009 purchase of 35 of M777A2 155mm howitzers, designated the M777 howitzer.

<snip>

The additional howitzers will be purchased from production in the United States and avoids potential additional costs to restart such production in Australia, the statement said.{If the production line shuts down, the unit price is expected to the more}

The government said it will consider additional support and facilities costs associated with the acquisition later in the 2012-13 financial year.{$3.8 mil per unit is not the final unit cost for it does not include cost for support, etc. as has been noted earlier, a FULL system unit price quoted to the Aussies in 2008/2009 was $ 4.35 mil and would have gone up by now}

If the Aussies were quoted $4.35 mil in 2008/2009, why would the US give it to India for less? Aussies after all are allies of the US, host US troops, spying station, etc while WE in India freak out just at the mention of the word allies in the Indo-US context.

The unit price quoted to the Aussies in 2008/2009 was $ 4.35 mil. Surely, you wouldn't expect the same price to be quoted to you in 2013/2014. While FMS may be a blackbox, as you have said, it can be verified on data points ... if one is interested.

srin · Post by **srin** » 07 Sep 2013 10:43

Nope and you can hold the defence policy responsible for that.

FMS means getting weapons at the same price as the US military gets (+ slight markup). And that means no ToT, offsets etc. You get quality parts and it is quite transparent.

However, our defence policy mandates offsets from 30-50%. And that isn't free. So we need pay make it up by paying extra 30% in addition to the base FMS procurement cost.

Never mind that the offsets that have been negotiated so far aren't really what we were looking for. Read the CAG report for how the offsets were used - training etc were accepted by MoD as valid offsets.

Obviously - it isn't ideal, but that has nothing to do with FMS itself.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 07 Sep 2013 20:07

It is tiresome to respond to every ridiculous shot-from-the-hip comment but it must be done.

nik wrote:Victor: We can compete on numbers if we make things ourselves.

We are getting there soon but that has nothing to do with purchasing the M777 and Chinook which is what you are attacking.

Buying 1/4rd the amount of guns for the same money is stupidity raised infinite times over.

No, the stupidity is implying that the purchase of 145 M777s will effect the overall 3,000+ gun modernization plan that is already sanctioned separately.

Yeah and get ready to beg the day the war starts and be treated like dogs! As if 900 years of slavery was not enough to drill a few bits of common sense!

Calm down man, no need to bust a vein

.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 11 Sep 2013 08:32

Cross posting from LCH and Heli thread:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 20400.aspx

1 billion for 150 M777 and 0.5 billion for SIX sexy Chinooks helicopters. Total is 1.5 billion USD, will easily grow to 2 billion by the time the deal is signed and lifetime costs considered.

Boys, pushing again for 3000 FH-77, they will be far more cheaper, employ indians and look muscular shooting and scooting around.

The chanakya gameplan : Win-Win redefined

1. Sell 200~300% inflated M-777 and Chinooks for 1.5 billion $$$ >> WIN 1
2. The Chu#!ya (i meant Congxxss) govt runs out $ and sells access to Walmart, Pension funds and what not >> WIN 2
3. When the war starts, get the rest by doing emergency supplies at sky high prices >> WIN 3

I am flat out of words understanding how this can be tolerated?

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 11 Sep 2013 08:59

Victor wrote:
nik wrote:Victor: We can compete on numbers if we make things ourselves.
We are getting there soon but that has nothing to do with purchasing the M777 and Chinook which is what you are attacking.

Buying 1/4rd the amount of guns for the same money is stupidity raised infinite times over.
No, the stupidity is implying that the purchase of 145 M777s will effect the overall 3,000+ gun modernization plan that is already sanctioned separately.

I assume you are factoring in the fake dollar printing press to buy the remaining 3000 guns

Show me an order for 3000 guns from OFB first. This field, summer, winter, fog, rain, underwater, on the moon, jupiter, sun, neighboring sun trials will keep going on and on. All BS while we keep importing and selling India out bit by bit.