Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Austin
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

BrahMos missiles substantially increase strike capacity of India’s armed forces

In an exclusive interview Praveen Pathak, General Manager (Market Promotion & Export) at BrahMos Aerospace talks about the capabilities of the missiles and the future of joint production in the defence sector between Russia and India.
Several media outlets have reported that the Indian Air Force would get its first BrahMos-missile armed Su-30MKI in June 2014. Would you be able to confirm this?

We have already conducted all the requisite preliminary tests to equip the Sukhoi-30MKI with BrahMos missiles. We are planning the first launch in December. They should be commissioned in July 2015.

How do these missiles help India’s strike capability?

We are well aware that time is of essence in winning a modern war. Whoever attacks at a lightning speed will win the war in the shortest time frame. We have seen that in the Iraq war. A strike with 1,000 Tomahawks all but destroyed Iraq’s military capacity.

The BrahMos missile is ready to fire. We need four minutes at the most to prepare for a launch. It takes the missile five minutes to cover 300 kilometres. In nine minutes we can fire hundreds of BrahMos missiles at the enemy and destroy their capabilities.

The missile can hit strategic targets: warships, aircraft carriers or nuclear power plants. Hitting such a target would essentially put an end to a conflict by inflicting very serious losses on the enemy, so the BrahMos missile substantially increases the strike capabilities of India’s Ground Forces, Navy and Air Force.

Although the BrahMos missiles are being manufactured using the latest Russian technology, so far the Russian armed forces haven’t committed to buying any of the missiles. Can you explain why and if there are any prospects for Russia buying them?

We have a strong interest in BrahMos purchases by Russia’s Armed Forces. We know they are legally prohibited from buying foreign-made arms and must only use domestically made ones. This approach has been changing lately, particularly as far as joint products are concerned. Our representatives raised this issue today during PM Medvedev’s visit (to MAKS on August 27- editor). They told us that the issue would be considered in due course. For instance, we are hoping that project 11356 frigates will get the BrahMos missiles soon. Six warships have been built for the Indian Navy and there is an outstanding order for six more for Russia’s Navy.

The matter of adoption of the BrahMos by the Russian Armed Forces is a matter of cooperation. Both partners should have this product. That is what a joint venture is all about. The Russian-Indian agreement dating back to 1998 required Russia to purchase and use BrahMos missiles. We hope this will be the case before long.

It has also been widely reported that 14 countries are interested in buying BrahMos missiles. Are there any major deals in the pipeline?

In all, 14 countries have expressed an interest in BrahMos. We have a joint supervisory committee consisting of Russian and Indian representatives, which has identified the 14 countries for marketing promotion. We are working closely with those countries, taking part in shows and promoting our products. It is too early to talk about any specifics.

How do you see the future of joint production in the defence sector between Russia and India?

We see a big future for our joint projects. We kicked off the joint project with a budget of $350 million, including $50 million that was added for our airborne variants. Today, our orders exceed $6 billion. Over the past 15 years, we have achieved a level no other company has been able to achieve throughout the history of Russian-Indian relations. In addition, we are expecting an increase in orders over the next ten years. We are working on different projects together with Russia. The BrahMos is the world’s best missile today. Five years from now, it will be the world’s best hypersonic missile.

Are there any plans to jointly develop a hypersonic missile?


Figuratively speaking, we are “pushing” Russia towards developing a hypersonic missile. We signed an agreement with MAI (Moscow Aviation Institute) ahead of the previous MAKS. We are also working with many Indian companies and testing various options. The main challenge is to find materials resistant to very high temperatures. Although the hull is made of composite materials, at hypersonic speeds it is subject to heavy friction and high temperatures. To resolve this issue, a coating made of special alloys is being developed. That is an important matter on the agenda. We already have engines of a new design. It is fair to say that a hypersonic missile is only held back by the lack of the requisite materials for the hull.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

We know they are legally prohibited from buying foreign-made arms and must only use domestically made ones.
Phuck all the JV and shit we need to enact this law at home right now.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

Deal or no deal - Delays, poor planning and corruption mar Army's anti-tank missile programme
When Gen. Bikram Singh took over as Army chief last year, he made it clear that military procurement was his top priority. True to his word, the Army Headquarters okayed a number of weapon purchases that included night-vision devices for T-72 tanks, 52-calibre gun systems and air surveillance radars. The biggest one in the pipeline was the Rs.15,000 crore anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM) deal.

The Army was keen to buy the Spike anti-tank missile, a lethal tank-killer manufactured by Israel's Rafael company, to replace the older Milan and Konkurs missiles. But, in the Defence Acquisition Council meeting held on April 2, Defence Minister A.K. Antony announced the freezing of the Spike missiles contract and ordered a technology scan—a procedure meant to ascertain whether it was possible to get a similar system from anywhere else.

The deal is now under scanner for more than one reason. Months before the documents related to the Spike missile reached Antony, someone from the defence ministry had, allegedly, leaked a bundle of classified documents related to the anti-tank missile programme to global arms dealers. The leaked documents contained precise details of the trial report, the exact quantity of launchers and missiles and an update on the procurement process. A stunned defence ministry is now trying to verify whether procurement procedures were manipulated to favour Rafael. Edmonds Allen, New York-based businessmen and whistle-blower, told the THE WEEK that top secret documents related to the procurement of the ATGMs were leaked. “I do not know who provided those documents to [Abhishek] Verma [currently in jail for selling classified Indian military documents]. He shared the documents with foreign defence firms,” said Allen. “I have shared the details with the CBI.”

During the desert trials in 2008, the Spike allegedly failed as seven out of 10 missiles had missed their targets, according to an Army officer who was familiar with the trials. “The trial team also raised questions about the missile's infrared seeker,” said the officer. Yet, the Spike was selected on a single-vendor basis, without any competition. Now, a technology scan is under way to find out whether similar missiles are available.

More than the technology scan, it is the allegations of corruption surrounding the deal that may force the defence ministry to notify a fresh tender. If the suspicion of corruption is confirmed, at the very least, the deal would be terminated, according to a senior official. That would be disastrous for Rafael as it would jeopardise hundreds of well-paid jobs, especially at its facility in Haifa. Moreover, the company could be blacklisted for several years in India, if it is proven that it hired middlemen or paid commissions. Israel Military Industries, another leading Israeli firm, was blacklisted for 10 years after its name figured in a corruption scandal last year. Antony has been exceptionally strict on defence deals.

When asked whether Rafael was associated with Verma or whether the company had hired him for consultancy services in India, company spokesperson Amit Zimmer told THE WEEK that Rafael did not provide such information. He, however, said the Spike was a well-known state-of-the-art system with 20 customers worldwide and orders exceeding 23,000 missiles.

“The Spike missiles are being successfully used by our customers in training and operations from different platforms, including infantry, combat vehicles and combat helicopters, for more than 15 years,” said Zimmer. “Over 300 Spike missiles are fired each year with a high degree of technical and operational success.”

The Spike deal was meant to equip 356 infantry battalions of the Army with the latest anti-tank missiles. The Army, with an authorised holding of 81,206 ATGMs, is currently facing a shortage of around 44,000 missiles. Former Army chief Gen. V.K. Singh had written to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh highlighting a critical shortage of arms and ammunition, including that of the anti-tank missiles. While self-reliance has been India's long stated goal, the country still imports about 70 per cent of its weapons, including the anti-tank missiles, which can also be used to hit enemy bunkers that provide covering fire to infiltrators in border regions.

“The military is directed to prepare themselves for a two-front war with Pakistan and China,” said Lt-Gen. (retd) Prakash Katoch, a special forces veteran. “Yet, they are short of something as basic as anti-tank missiles.” He said China already had third-generation missiles like the Green Arrow and the Red Arrow, while Pakistan was in possession of second-generation missiles like the Baktar-Shikan. The Pakistani army has approximately 2,400 tanks and India has 3,250, while China with 7,450 has more tanks than any other country in the world.

It was during the Kargil War that Indian commanders realised the operational utility of the advanced anti-tank missiles as the Pakistani army had dug itself in high-altitude bunkers. Initially, the Army was keen to buy the American Javelin ATGMs, jointly produced by Raytheon and Lockheed Martin. But, the deal fell through after the US did not permit technology transfer for indigenous production by Bharat Dynamics Limited. With the Spike deal under scanner, the Americans are again pitching for the Javelin and they now appear to be willing to share the technology as well. Lockheed Martin and Raytheon said in a joint statement that they were ready to offer the Javelin as an option to meet India's requirement for an advanced, fire-and-forget anti-tank guided missile.

“The Indian programme is a priority for the Javelin Joint Venture,” said Lockheed Martin and Raytheon in an email response. “We are prepared to comply with India's requirements for major defence procurements, including transfer of technology....” They said the Javelin was successfully fired in the recent India-US Yudh Abhyas bilateral exercise with five direct hits, of which three were fired by Indian gunners. Like the Spike, the Javelin, too, is a third-generation missile that relies on an electro-optical image seeker, requiring no guidance during the flight.

India is also developing an indigenous third-generation anti-tank missile, called the Nag. The defence ministry has spent Rs.1,700 crore on the Nag, which is being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation. The 42.3kg-missile with an 8.2kg warhead can move at a speed of 230m/sec for up to 6,000 metres. It is currently undergoing trials in Rajasthan. The Nag is among a select few fire-and-forget missiles like the Spike and the Javelin; once it is fired, its seeker automatically guides the missile to even a fast-moving tank. While the Javelin and the Spike are lighter missiles that can be carried by a soldier, the Nag is heavier and more powerful, designed to operate from vehicles and helicopters.

“While the infrared seekers of the Javelin and the Spike can be jammed, the Nag's optical guidance system makes it virtually jam-proof,” said DRDO spokesperson Ravi Gupta. “The Army should buy it. It is the most lethal and advanced anti-tank missile in the world.”

But, officials at the Army headquarters said the Nag had been going through trials for so many years. “You cannot expect the Army to wait for decades for something as crucial as an anti-tank missile,” said a commander. The DRDO admitted that the Nag had faced problems while hitting targets at a four-km range because of high temperatures in the deserts of Rajasthan. Here, the temperatures of the target as well as the surroundings often become the same and the missiles could not differentiate between the target and the surroundings. “We have resolved the temperature anomaly and we are confident that the Army will be impressed by the performance of the missile,” said Gupta. According to the DRDO, the missiles with their improved detectors would perform with more efficiency and accuracy even in extreme temperatures.

At the defence ministry, top officials admitted that the weapons' procurement system suffered from poor long-term planning.{No,No, No Mullah ... This is the result of long-term planning onleee .. to go for a rush order when faced with a crisis .. without any oversight .. at inflated prices} Even the upgrade of second-generation Konkurs missiles is delayed by about two decades because of poor planning and coordination, according to a report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, tabled in Parliament last month. The Konkurs, like the Milan, is a wire-guided anti-tank missile, which does not have capability to destroy tanks fitted with explosive reactive armour (ERA). It was in 1994 that the Army decided to induct the Konkurs-M missiles, an advanced version of the Konkurs, capable of defeating tanks protected by ERA. But, the process of finalising the contract took about eight years and then technology absorption got delayed further, resulting in a loss of Rs.283.72 crore, according to the CAG. The defence ministry has now approached Russian company Rosoboronexport to purchase 10,000 Konkurs-M at a cost of Rs.1,223 crore.{Ah ... all per plan ... see how well thought out the long-term plans are. Not to worry, have curry while the Russians make merry}

The notorious delays, cancellations and corruption have derailed many defence programmes. Another corruption scandal in military procurement is the last thing the government wants now. For the moment, however, all eyes are on the technological scan report, which is being conducted by the Integrated Defence Staff Headquarters. The report is expected to be submitted anytime now.

<snip>
Last edited by pankajs on 02 Sep 2013 20:21, edited 1 time in total.
vishvak
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vishvak »

So what makes defense forces not order 44,000 of Nag missile sets even to reach minimum required levels and for facing threats on 2 fronts? Guess jawaans are recruited to die for the country but no one is recruited to order this much simply for filling minimum levels even in face of two front war.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by krishnan »

they probably want a man portable version
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vishvak »

Then order more Nag now and replace/reconfigure to man portable later could be a way. Inventory would help in any case when gap in inventory won't.

How do the vendors make man-portable ones anyway.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vinod »

krishnan wrote:they probably want a man portable version
Moving the goal posts further, I guess!
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by krishnan »

might take long time, because not only the missile needs to be made portable, they will also have to probably reduce the size of seeker and all and further tests
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by krishnan »

rather than making it man portable , they should make it better, make it harder to jam and make it pack more punch and increase its range, make IA buy it, make it such that they just cant refuse
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vishvak »

OK however as mentioned above the missile can be used in many ways therefore it is like capability multiplier. Having more of the same in cold storage even during or immediately after the war will be great too.
Austin wrote:These days ATGM are not limited to hitting tanks or lightly armoured targets but are also used to take our hardened targets like bunkers etc from stand off range so the high number likely reflects the trend , the warhed of ATGM these days comes in different variants.
This also means more ATGMs will be used up in war to do many things as can be done.

Also not discounting procurement at all, but it is important to test first US purchases in high temperatures too no?

Plus additional NAMICA launchers can be used at will if not needed ie even at high temperatures after all necessary wars have been fought, and won, at high temperatures.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by kit »

Assuming the service is ok with the Nag ., who will produce it in the numbers required ? ..44,000 seems to be the number mentioned ?! .. and in how many years ?! ..will the private companies be roped in .. sub assemblies..parts .. the whole vendor chain ..when will that happen ?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vishvak »

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/atgm/na.html

If I am not mistaken, more than 700 Nag missiles are already to be procured as per requirements.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Prem Kumar wrote:24,000 ATGMs out of which 776 are Nags (3%) as part of an initial order.

Hopefully Nag & CLGM orders will end up satisfying at least 20% of this order
Do things need to be repeated every couple of months to ensure people don't post above fancy calculations?

Do you know that Nag has no equivalent system in IA service? And large scale induction of Nag may well lead to upward revision in overall holding of ATGM in IA?

Those 24K ATGM are manportable ATGM of Milan-2 kind - @8 launchers per battalion, that amounts to 1+7 reloads per launcher. IA will most probably equip the mechanized Recce and Support Battalions of Mechanized Infantry with Nag+NAMICA - it is a specialized product which will see niche deployment.

As for CLGM - well, let us all pray to the almighty for larger induction of Arjun. It seems, nothing short of lighting hitting the DGMF directly will work and lead to larger orders.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

vishvak wrote:So what makes defense forces not order 44,000 of Nag missile sets even to reach minimum required levels and for facing threats on 2 fronts? Guess jawaans are recruited to die for the country but no one is recruited to order this much simply for filling minimum levels even in face of two front war.
Then order more Nag now and replace/reconfigure to man portable later could be a way. Inventory would help in any case when gap in inventory won't.

How do the vendors make man-portable ones anyway. Then order more Nag now and replace/reconfigure to man portable later could be a way. Inventory would help in any case when gap in inventory won't.

Did you take your meds today?

I mean, there does not seem to be any other explanation for the BS written above.

Now, let me tell you small statistic - Nag weighs 42 Kg while Milan-2T weighs around 10 kg.

Using your superior analytical and comprehension skills, please educate how does one convert a 42 kg missle into man portable 'later on'? Also, while you're at it, please remember that Nag is meant to be fired from a modified BMP-2 and does not even have a vehicle mounted launcher.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by mody »

Rohit is it possible to use the NAG fitted on standard BMP-2's? All BMP vehicles in IA inventory are armed with 2 ATGMs.
There is a huge requirement, to upgrade all the current BMP-1s and 2's and all of them will need new ATGMs.

If not possible, in its current form, how difficult would be to modify the current NAG to get a vehicle mounted version?

To get a Man portable version of NAG, would take more then 5+ years of development and testing IMHO. Not the kind of time that IA wants to give. Just getting the Helina done on time will be enough for Nag.

A Man portable version of CLGM should be possible. However, the basic tank fired version itself is not developed fully.
A concurrent development can be taken up, if IA is interested and studies the CLGM capabilities and gives a concrete set of requirements. A laser guided tandem warhead missile like CLGM would be perfect for anti-bunker busting roles.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pragnya »

^^^

modyji

Namica is a BMP 2 chassis only - modified for the launcher add on. there were 2 versions to be tried out - an 8 ready to fire L&T version and a 6 ready to fire BEL version (a proposal). guess most of the trials have happened on the L&T one and army asked some changes in the NAMICA (amphibian related) & NAG had a seeker issue after the trials were held in aug 2012. fresh trials are due and 'hopefully soon' with an improved IIR seeker on the NAG.

MANPAD version of CLGM is also an 'iffy' becuase the missile weighs 18.5kg. either tripod/vehicle mounted are possible.

EDIT : ok. the fresh trails held in aug 2013 is successful!!
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vic »

Jeep mounted Milans, BMP mounted konkurs can be replaced with Nag missile and or CLGMs-SAMHO but rohitvats will prevent any discussion on indigenous products by abusing people.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by jamwal »

During the desert trials in 2008, the Spike allegedly failed as seven out of 10 missiles had missed their targets, according to an Army officer who was familiar with the trials. “The trial team also raised questions about the missile's infrared seeker,” said the officer.
.....and they were still about to buy Spike. Now I don't know if Army or Babooze were to blame, but Indian defence procurement is beyond ****** up.
I'm not even going to ask the often asked rhetorical question. This corruption virus is worse than cancer.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vishvak »

Focus of my post was on procurement aspect alone which is enough in numbers for desi production in 10000-40000 easily. Jeep mounted, NAMICA mounted etc only indicates its many faceted features - which directly means the order for NAG should not fall in numbers at all - even for future use as needed.

Army has asked improvement on NAMICA too thereby indication of its many uses. We should not be holding back on either NAG or NAMICA.

NAG at weight of 42kg must be highly devastating missile, and confidence should be high for the same about its other versions including Manual launched. Now if I say use the whole tech on a helicopter separate - seeker guidance on helicopter, camera on small ammunition shells without much fuel from height to leverage gravity - that would be strange too, like using Arjun's very accurate projectile tracker - on LCH.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Victor »

jamwal wrote:
During the desert trials in 2008, the Spike allegedly failed as seven out of 10 missiles had missed their targets, according to an Army officer who was familiar with the trials. “The trial team also raised questions about the missile's infrared seeker,” said the officer.
.....and they were still about to buy Spike. Now I don't know if Army or Babooze were to blame, but Indian defence procurement is beyond ****** up.
I'm not even going to ask the often asked rhetorical question. This corruption virus is worse than cancer.
This is a newspaper report that quotes anonymous army officer who says something that flies in the face of overwhelmingly contradictory experience elsewhere which opens the door for the Javelin that is now going to give us ToT after refusing to earlier. This is a fantastic story from old Indrajal Comics worthy of our completely ****** up procurement system but if it results in our making the Javelin in India under ToT then we should take it.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vishvak »

About Javeline missile ToT - should not that be within limits of procurement processes-regardless of results elsewhere. Especially when we do have better results from NAG missile as per our own criteria. For bunker busting do we really need imported anti-tank MANPADs?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

NAG is a very good missile but at being 40 Kg+ it isn't man portable but then it wasn't meant to be as well. The current requirement seems to be for man portable ATGM's and currently we don't have an indigenous solution for the same other than SAMHO but it's still under development. NAG can't fulfill the current requirement.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Spikes issue in trials were reported earlier as well. India's environmental conditions are different, which make standard IIR seekers flop in Indian trials. Same reason why Nag seeker had to be redesigned.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Also, TOT for the Javelin/Spike program envisaged transfer of tech for the seeker as well. The FPA sensor tech. is the most closely guarded item. Rafael itself did not want to transfer the tech. to BEL or DPSU which was working closely with DRDO, despite setting up a JV with BEL. Reportedly, they finally agreed. The US refused outright, and only offered assembly plus TOT of parts of the propulsion etc. Looks like we'll have to accept that, if the Spike is not upto scratch. As I recall, a key reason why Spike was chosen over Javelin in several places in Europe was that it has a man in the loop option to permit retargeting on the fly.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Karan M »

jamwal wrote:
During the desert trials in 2008, the Spike allegedly failed as seven out of 10 missiles had missed their targets, according to an Army officer who was familiar with the trials. “The trial team also raised questions about the missile's infrared seeker,” said the officer.
.....and they were still about to buy Spike. Now I don't know if Army or Babooze were to blame, but Indian defence procurement is beyond ****** up.
I'm not even going to ask the often asked rhetorical question. This corruption virus is worse than cancer.
Yes it is worrisome, but it could be that the TOT requirement allowed Spike to become the single vendor.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_27444 »

For nag they have been struggling to get the right optic glass
Only unkil and Germany have the right kind and they monitor any export to India from any distribution channels , its dual use tech

This the problem

http://www.us.schott.com/advanced_optic ... index.html
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_26622 »

Can we cut down range of NAG by half, from 5 KMS to 2.5 KMS to reduce weight of missile? Will it go from 42 to 30 Kgs.

The SPIKE-MR is closing to 27 Kgs all-inclusive. I think man-portable means a two person team. Nag seems close enough to pursue instead of an un-proven import.

From Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spike_(missile) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_(missile)

NAG
Weight: 42 KG
Range: 4~5 Kms

SPIKE-MR
Weight: 27 KG (Breakdown below)
RANGE: 2.5 Kms

SPIKE-LR
Weight: 45 KG
RANGE: 4 Kms

Looking at SPIKE-MR specifics:
• Missile round: 14 kg (30 lb 14 oz)
• Command & launch unit (CLU): 5 kg (11 lb 0 oz)
• Tripod: 2.8 kg (6 lb 3 oz)
• Battery: 1 kg (2 lb 3 oz)
• Thermal sight: 4 kg (8 lb 13 oz)
Last edited by member_26622 on 07 Sep 2013 02:33, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by jamwal »

Karan M wrote:
Yes it is worrisome, but it could be that the TOT requirement allowed Spike to become the single vendor.
[/quote]

Of what good is ToT of a missile with just 30% hit rate ?
Army sent back Nag for "more" improvements for much less
Last edited by jamwal on 07 Sep 2013 02:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_26622 »

Another 1 billion deal >> The gravitational pull for 1 billion deals now-a-days makes me believe India has re-located to Jupiter !!!

Just look at the export potential for miniaturized NAG. It's 100% worth the effort.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Raman »

People greatly underestimate the effort involved in upsizing or downsizing an airplane or missile - you can't just divide all physical measurements by two and have a missile that weighs half as much and has half the range.

It is quite like saying, a Maruti 800 is only a little over twice the weight of a motorcycle ... can we cut it in half and make it into a motorcycle?

"Converting" NAG into a man-portable missile is "possible", but will end up changing *every* single component and the result is no longer NAG, but a completely different missile that requires testing of each and every component/subsystem/integration/etc. The only thing in common would be the name.

I recommend that people watch the AeroIndia lecture on the Astra missile to understand what the implications of such changes are ...
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Karan M »

jamwal wrote:
Of what good is ToT of a missile with just 30% hit rate ?
Army sent back Nag for "more" improvements for much less
That is the worrisome part. Usually, these guys cite that they will work with India etc to rectify the issues, try to pass it off as a JV and also include TOT. We still end up with half baked stuff. You are quite right about how slipshod IA procurement can be.

Just go through these articles about how procedures have been thrown to the winds in previous purchases.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2007/05/c ... chase.html
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2007/05/c ... needs.html

The issue is that requirements are often poorly framed and subjectively interpreted, with additional items being used to differentiate the winner from the loser etc. The IA system is pretty messed up, as there is no single organization for tech forecasting or evaluation. Individual organizations within the IA undertake all these, and the variability in terms of testing, procedures, competence is huge.

In contrast, France has a single services run agency which works with developers both public and private, to develop, and then trial the products.

In such a milieu, bad decisions are a given. Add a disinterested MOD or one running under other considerations, and a DPSU like OFB is ok with any vendor being selected, as at the end of the day, its just going to assemble and make money off it.. its a recipe for disaster.
Last edited by Karan M on 07 Sep 2013 03:15, edited 1 time in total.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Raman wrote:People greatly underestimate the effort involved in upsizing or downsizing an airplane or missile - you can't just divide all physical measurements by two and have a missile that weighs half as much and has half the range.

It is quite like saying, a Maruti 800 is only a little over twice the weight of a motorcycle ... can we cut it in half and make it into a motorcycle?

"Converting" NAG into a man-portable missile is "possible", but will end up changing *every* single component and the result is no longer NAG, but a completely different missile that requires testing of each and every component/subsystem/integration/etc. The only thing in common would be the name.

I recommend that people watch the AeroIndia lecture on the Astra missile to understand what the implications of such changes are ...
Absolutely. A manportable Nag wont be a Nag at all.

BTW, the Astra has been thoroughly redesigned - will be interesting to see it in service.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_27444 »

There are many areas DRDO unable to make progress I posted the special IR glass required for seeker we don't have the capability

Heck even if you get supply of the glass wafers to shape them into spheroidal for the missile seeker with out distorting the properties is no easy task most often the raw material comes in standard cylindrical rods or hexagonal cylinder
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

member_26622
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_26622 »

Raman wrote:People greatly underestimate the effort involved in upsizing or downsizing an airplane or missile - you can't just divide all physical measurements by two and have a missile that weighs half as much and has half the range.

It is quite like saying, a Maruti 800 is only a little over twice the weight of a motorcycle ... can we cut it in half and make it into a motorcycle?

"Converting" NAG into a man-portable missile is "possible", but will end up changing *every* single component and the result is no longer NAG, but a completely different missile that requires testing of each and every component/subsystem/integration/etc. The only thing in common would be the name.
Everything involves effort; not taking even the first step is tantamount to laziness. Is a 1 billion $$$ order enough juice to wet someones appetite in New Delhi. It sure has import 'commissionaries' (am coining this term) somersaulting.

Testing is mandatory as well...so stop development and incremental improvement ???

Downsizing from Maruti to Motorcycle > Well said but off the mark by a mile. We are looking for making a 200 CC motorcycle in to 100 CC motorcycle.

I am no missile man but have built actual machines and new engines to know a wee little bit about development.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by NRao »

Downsizing from Maruti to Motorcycle > Well said but off the mark by a mile. We are looking for making a 200 CC motorcycle in to 100 CC motorcycle.

I am no missile man but have built actual machines and new engines to know a wee little bit about development.
You missed his point. The 100 CC still is not a 200 CC and has to go through a rigorous testing phase. Outside of design, etc. The result is a diff engine, with only thing common being "engine". The two are substantially different and are two different projects. Conceptually they have a lot in common.

Rest of your post is irrelevant.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_26622 »

NRao wrote:
Downsizing from Maruti to Motorcycle > Well said but off the mark by a mile. We are looking for making a 200 CC motorcycle in to 100 CC motorcycle.

I am no missile man but have built actual machines and new engines to know a wee little bit about development.
You missed his point. The 100 CC still is not a 200 CC and has to go through a rigorous testing phase. Outside of design, etc. The result is a diff engine, with only thing common being "engine". The two are substantially different and are two different projects. Conceptually they have a lot in common.

Rest of your post is irrelevant.
Irrelevance is in the eye of the beholder and your dis-agreement is fine.

Any sane engine development company will strive for commonality of parts (piston, cylinder head,sleeve, rings..) to reduce development cycle. It will all have to be tested, but that did not stop the Chinese and Russians from standing up on their own feet for defense equipment.

At the end of the day, it is a matter of economic viability and the huge order numbers which IA needs is far far ahead of the break even point.

The first step is always difficult, but the next series of development carry and build upon a lot of commonality (most important is Human skills and knowledge which is the REAL bottleneck). We have invested and learnt a lot in the first step, let's continue and pick up speed on following steps. Otherwise capabilities built so hard will wither away (Remember the Gnat).

A 1 billion $$$ order for Nag and variants will make the program sustainable for 10 years and will deliver the next series of missiles. We can transform it in to an export house. Paltry orders is equivalent to killing the project. After this 1 billion $ import order, we can kiss away any further development goodbye. Back to been a handicap with a begging bowl.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by mody »

With regards to my question of mounting Nag missiles on BMP vehicles, it was specifically with regards to replacing 2 Konkur ATGMs mounted on each BMP as part of its standard ATGM fitment.

I know that NAMICA is based on the BMP-2. However, NAMICA has been specially designed to carry the NAG. Can the NAG be carried by standard BMP-2s as well, as replacement for Konkurs or not?
I could be that Nag requires additional equipment, to enable target acquisition etc. and such additional equipment cannot be accommodated in the BMP-2 troop carrier.

With regards to the Man portable version of Nag, first the IA has to accept the Nag, in its current form. They have placed only a small order for 700 of missiles with 13 Namica carriers. If IA was really happy with the performance of Nag, then they would make serious effort to get it into service as soon as possible. They would changed operational plans to accommodate this kind of capability and that would lead to a requirement of X-number of Namica's and Nag missiles per formation. This would lead to a much larger requirement of Nag missiles.

If this were to be a case, then IA would give requirement to DRDO, to develop a Man portable ATGM, having fire and forget capabilities, with IIR seeker and a tandem warhead, just like the Nag.

Unfortunately, IA is still making Nag jump through hoops. I'm sure that by now IA has seen enough of Nag to make out what type of weapon it is capable of becoming , once the small niggles still plaguing it are ironed out. But still it doesn't seem like IA is fully convinced about it and are not putting their full weight behind the project or asking for further spin-offs based on the development effort so far.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vic »

Assuming IIR seeker technology is an overreach then we should aim to induct CLGM-SAMHO and develop radio controlled missiles eg TOW. Further, Man in loop will also reduce the limitations of indigenous seeker.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by mody »

The indigenous IIR seeker for Nag has already been developed and with the recent tests, the seeker should be a done deal soon enough.
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