Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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vasu raya
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

^^^

There are EO ball equipped combat choppers as well as radar ones like the Longbow, didn't see a exclusivity there. Similarly having man portable ATGMs doesn't preclude the BMP derived NAMICA and the NAG.

The premise is a seeker less ATGM is inexpensive and can be used like water by forces such as ANA that cannot afford F&F Javelins in large nos even if compromising on flexibility of ops. Also, if IA can find space for NAMICA, a radar carrying vehicle isn't such an oddball. The BFSR is actually a man portable radar which Karan M thinks that a mmW FCR cannot be form fitted to, however the Longbow is small size with 3 planar arrays in a triangle config. The power req. might mean it has to be vehicle supported.

I will let you take care of the China front :-) just a caution the Himalayas can have foggy weather and radars might be better suited, hence the Apache maybe
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Last edited by Karan M on 10 Sep 2013 03:10, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Karan M »

The Longbow radar is a very low peak power, millimetric band system, with extremely low sidelobes by virtue of a very large relative antenna size.

http://www.ausairpower.net/longbow-aa.html

"The premise is a seeker less ATGM is inexpensive and can be used like water by forces such as ANA that cannot afford F&F Javelins in large nos even if compromising on flexibility of ops. "

Cost of radar. ~$7.5M per unit/associated costs. KSA has 12 Apaches.
http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news ... s-90m.html

And..if BMP gets taken out, the missiles are useless. How exactly is flexibility not an issue. Can BMPs go up hills?
http://makalu57.com/styled-19/files/tora-bora-2_tif.jpg

Or get clear LOS over wadis, berms? Can each missile be guided to targets spaced radically apart, at different elevations and depressions?
http://blogs.reuters.com/afghanistan/fi ... -wadi2.jpg

Sorry but I believe enough time has been wasted on the impracticality of this "solution looking for a problem".
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

Karan M, those counter examples aren't insurmountable, first buying a Longbow system isn't an option, if there is a workable radar from our stables that isn't hugely expensive, either it can be vehicle mounted or in mountain terrain an unarmed UAV , which are easily available, can fly them cueing the infantry on targets in range, and guiding those seeker less ATGMs. Don't believe LoS is a requirement for radar guided ATGMs with mid course guidance, take the Akash system as an analogy, in this case its ground targets within typical ATGM range of 5kms. For ANA, loss of radar coverage will mean they revert the ATGMs to RPG role with LoS engagement and their opposition, the taliban isn't any better equipped.

Even on LoC the fencing isn't exactly parallel to the LoC but meanders taking into account the terrain which is also mountainous and BFSRs are active there. The ANA can find a line that can be defended for the most part taking advantage of the terrain and well away from Kabul.

let me ask a counter question, what if NAMICA is taken out which renders the NAGs useless, why does IA want that system when NAGs cannot operate standalone? same thing what if Rajendra radar is taken out by ARMs rendering Akash missiles non-functional?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Karan M »

The Nag is a specialist system designed to engage MBTs at range. Not point targets like infantry, hiding in crevices, using folds of the earth etc to mask themselves. Which standoff distance gives its BMP the safety. Cost of opponent equipment disabled also justifies the expense - as tanks are expensive.

The Akash is a SAM, which targets low flying aircraft, still several meters above the earth. Ergo, LOS is not such an issue. Look up minimum height of targets attacked by SAM systems!

"let me ask a counter question, what if NAMICA is taken out which renders the NAGs useless, why does IA want that system when NAGs cannot operate standalone? same thing what if Rajendra radar is taken out by ARMs rendering Akash missiles non-functional?"

Of course, there is the risk of both. The NAMICA has been designed to minimize exposure. See above. Similarly, the Akash is automated and relies on quick lock on and engagement measures to do the same. Even so, its part of a layered IADS program (with Barak-MRSAM) to extend the AD envelope beyond the typical ARM!

If BFSR is the be-all and end-all, why is it that the IA is then installing tripwires with movement sensors, putting EO/TI cameras on bunkers...the terrain ensures radars alone are not sufficient.

How is Afghanistan different?

Here, you dont seem to have done even the most basic of due diligence into the basics of how this proposed method would work. What you are doing is emphatically arguing about something:

1. Which lacks the common sense technology to make it work
- Radar guided missiles to be carried by infantry, which missiles are likely to underperform when compared to even the primitive RPGs that ANA uses
- Are not going to be able to target small targets, as versus tanks, hiding in various terrain features
- Rely on taking a helicopter FCR (whose size, cost all of which you ignored) and putting it into a BMP, which has to be then specifically developed to guide such missiles
- Aforesaid FCR has been designed to operate against vehicles and not men and is of a totally different configuration. Here you want it to do both.

2. Which does not even have the cost advantage to justify it
- Training ANA to use such a complex system. Heck, they currently have issues using arty per US observers since the standard of education for the average Afghan is very bad. You wish they use such missiles and maintain them
- Costs associated with developing and maintaining them
- Costs associated with developing this system

3. Is operationally a complete disaster
- No flexibility for dismounted troops. Tied to the BMP at all times. Nice, if the engaging party sneaks up on them from a direction the BMP is not pointed in. Then what?

Your project does not even make operational or tactical sense, nor does it have any cost benefit to it as a given. It also ignores the profile of the intended user and what they would need.

That combined with stuff like, lets put a helicopter radar etc into the BMP and make it a guidance vehicle for multipurpose missiles etc ...is very reminiscent of stuff like this - which was a far simpler idea and at least had the logic worked out, and a proper operational need.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M247_Sergeant_York

Such whimsical questions belong in the newbie thread to be honest as they detract from serious debate.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

lets see, there is a mmW seeker in the works for NAG which is currently LOBL with 2km range and efforts are on to make it LOAL as well as dual mode for all weather operation. So, there should be a radar based acquisition system for it, either LCH/Rudra based or mast mounted one on NAMICA or LCH networked with Apache Longbow for LOAL guidance

Are there any man portable missiles that have mmW seekers or dual mode permitting all weather ops? Is there any rationale in making them LOAL supported by a UAV mounted FCR for longer range targeting, when troops are stuck on mountain ranges and their forward movement is extremely slow.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

rohitvats wrote:For reasons known only to the IA, it has never gone for heavier ATGM
Longer ranged missiles are meaningless without designation, that was not available those days.

Refer here, absolutely no missile designation capability other than short ranged infantry sights
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... 6.jpg.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... 1.jpg.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... 9.jpg.html
rohitvats wrote:Also, more than the threat perception, I think it is the engagement distance which would dictate the requirement. The ability to fully exploit a tank gun or a missile beyond or even close to 2 km is considered difficult in our context. Both in Punjab and deserts. In fact, I was reading US Army document which spoke about inability to exploit the 3.75 km distance of TOW Missile - the reason being that it requires tremendous training to be able to hold the target for such a long flight time. Plus, in case of SACLOS Missiles, more the flight time, more the chances of discovery of firing unit by enemy. There is another practical reason - the wire which guides the missiles should not get tangled; I've heard stories of villagers using the stone-at-the-end-of-long rope to bring down ATGM in firing ranges by snapping the guidance wire. Net - a long range SACLOS ATGM might not be able to do full justice to its capabilities. A true F&F Missile like Nag is more suited for such roles.
Correct. The Pakistanis have something called TUA (TOW under Armour), but that has the same challenges listed by you
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/nrJTvCwFWJ4/maxresdefault.jpg

Did anyone notice that every missile being evaluated by IA - Nag, Spike & Javelin is F&F. Because, in a fast moving battlefield with even heavier vehicles becoming more agile, the ability of an operator to designate over longer durations of time is becoming extremely limited. Also note that IA is desperate for ToT for IIR, and conversely US & Israel reluctant to give it, that is holding back these deals.

Nag will definitely equip the R&S battalions. It is an expensive, heavy & long ranged missile to use for skirmishing or blocking at long ranges, allowing time for dedicated AT measures like Artillery, Rocket, tanks & jeep mounted cheaper & lighter ATGMs to engage. I hope they're able to improve the domestic seeker & bring down costs so that later versions find its way into BMPs.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

tsarkar wrote:<SNIP> Correct. The Pakistanis have something called TUA (TOW under Armour), but that has the same challenges listed by you http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/nrJTvCwFWJ4/maxresdefault.jpg
From what I know, the single battalion equipped with this system is under their Multan based II Corps.

Thanks for other inputs.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

India's nuclear-capable ballistic missile Agni-V to be test-fired on Sunday
Top sources said, "Scientists on the programme have spent most of the last 16 months studying the telemetry and performance data of the first test and fine-tuning all systems, including the navigation system and on board systems."

The indigenous systems that will be further tested and monitored closely in Sunday's test include all-composite rocket motor, fifth generation distributed on-board computer architecture, ring laser gyro-based inertial navigation system (RINS), the completely new redundant micro navigation system and the crucial re-entry shield, built to withstand temperatures in excess of 4,000 degrees celsius. A more capable cannisterised version of the Agni-V is likely to be tested in December this year.

In July, DRDO chief Dr Avinash Chander, formerly director on the Agni programme, told Headlines Today, "We'll induct the Agni IV and V inducted in the next two years. It's the first time we will be inducting strategic missiles with such long ranges together. Agni III, IV and V are going to be the thrust areas. They give us the reach which we need, and are our highest priority now. Within two years we have to make sure that it happens."

While the Agni-V's second test was expected in the September-October period, it comes shortly after a season of provocations along the India-China border, and is likely to be interpreted as a show of strength.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

India to Test “China Killer” Agni-V ICBM
Last month The Hindu reported Tessy Thomas, the director of the Agni Missile Project at DRDO, as saying there will be two or three more tests of the Agni-V before the missile is deemed operational in 2015. She also said that the Agni-V, like all of India’s missiles, is a “weapon of peace.”{Was this furriner analyst confused by our accented english? :mrgreen: }

<snip>

In her comments last month, Ms. Thomas implied that the modifications to allow India to MIRV its Agni-Vs had been completed successfully. This raises the possibility that the upcoming test would use a MIRVed Agni-V, although The Hindu report did not give any indication to suggest that this is the case.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

As per earlier notifications (for that is what the DRDO press interactions are) the AV will be tested four times and then a cannister launch will occur. The MIRV version will be latter.

My comments:

A MIRV version will be quite a different vehicle as it will need a bus with the guidance and RV launch platforms. And a payload fairing that separates/discarded once its in upper atmosphere.
Its a whole new missile with a new front end and only the propulsion sytem being common to the AV. And is a great new achievement.

From what I can infer the conical section is the bus for now.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

ok, googling didn't reveal any mmW seeker based man portable missiles, perhaps the state of the art is heavier ATGMs. In such a case how are man portable missiles be all weather? and if one got fog covered mountains the IR seeker based missiles will be stranded even for LoS targets.

Would flying in a target acquisition system, an mmW FCR on either a combat chopper or a UAV, can one atleast attempt LOAL targeting with the man portable missile being guided by the FCR until its IR seeker can lock onto the obscured target? agreed the time spent by the airborne FCR exposed to enemy increases, however even the enemy is blinded by fog making their manpads ineffective

extending this further, if there is less than a feet visibility and the mmW FCR is nifty, can a seeker less man portable missile be guided until impact at LoS ranges?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by kit »

vasu raya wrote:Karan M, those counter examples aren't insurmountable, first buying a Longbow system isn't an option, if there is a workable radar from our stables that isn't hugely expensive, either it can be vehicle mounted or in mountain terrain an unarmed UAV , which are easily available, can fly them cueing the infantry on targets in range, and guiding those seeker less ATGMs. Don't believe LoS is a requirement for radar guided ATGMs with mid course guidance, take the Akash system as an analogy, in this case its ground targets within typical ATGM range of 5kms. For ANA, loss of radar coverage will mean they revert the ATGMs to RPG role with LoS engagement and their opposition, the taliban isn't any better equipped.

Even on LoC the fencing isn't exactly parallel to the LoC but meanders taking into account the terrain which is also mountainous and BFSRs are active there. The ANA can find a line that can be defended for the most part taking advantage of the terrain and well away from Kabul.

let me ask a counter question, what if NAMICA is taken out which renders the NAGs useless, why does IA want that system when NAGs cannot operate standalone? same thing what if Rajendra radar is taken out by ARMs rendering Akash missiles non-functional?

i think the chinese are having similar ideas., with an extensive range of uav s .
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

Vasu raya, The French had a long range ATGM called Trigat which comes close to the Nag specs.

Recall NAG is an outgrowth of the long attempts of DRDL to come up with an ATGM even before the IGMP was launched. In the mid 80s there were reports of the M-1 Abrams being gifted to TSP and that set off a need for a real ATGM and led to the inclusion of the NAG.

It was a futuristic "Fire and Forget" concept with the IIR and MMW seekers versions, a downward firing warhead and good range.

The IIR concept was lauded by many 'experts' all over the world.
My concern is the odd propulsion concept where the booster is ahead of the sustainer with all those angled nozzles and doesnt get separated adding to dead weight but then its a short range (~3km) weapon.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Indranil »

Actually that configuration is not that uncommon.

However, I have always hoped for a Nag Mk2 with the sustainer being placed ahead of a separate-able booster, and with miniaturized electronics. I think they have the technology for the separation now and according to Dr. Chander miniaturization of the electronics has now become a major thrust area for missile development at DRDO.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

India Hedges its Bets by Looking for Homegrown Surface-to-air Missiles
NEW DELHI — Despite the ongoing development of a $2 billion Indo-Israeli Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile (MRSAM) project, the Indian Air Force is looking to domestic firms to buy an additional unspecific number of MRSAM systems as it looks to replace its aging Russian-made Pechora surface-to-air missiles.

No official with the Indian Defence Ministry would say why the need arose to acquire more MRSAMs even as the Indo-Israeli project is developing. Sources in the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which partnered with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and Rafael of Israel in 2009 for the program, said the MRSAM prototype has failed initial tests. Sources added that the induction of the first firing unit will take place no earlier than 2017, as opposed to the planned induction this year.

An MoD source said India has decided to buy high-tech and big-ticket weapons and equipment from the domestic market to safeguard itself from any delays by overseas firms.

The government made this move after the passage of the Arms Trade Treaty this year, the source said, adding that procurement of MRSAM from the domestic market is part of this thinking. Analysts believe that, due to the treaty, India will face strict regulations from exporters on weapons such as combat and stealth aircraft, attack helicopters, warships and artillery.

The requests for information went to state-owned Bharat Electronics Ltd., Larsen & Toubro, Tata Power SED, Punj Lloyd, Bharat Forge, Mahindra Defense Systems and Data Patterns India.

None of the domestic companies has produced an MRSAM system in full, though they can develop and produce systems such as radars and launchers.

The MRSAM will be procured using the “Buy and Make India” category, meaning the chosen domestic company will license-produce the systems with at least 50 percent of their components produced indigenously.

The domestic defense companies, in turn, would forge partnerships with overseas defense majors including US-based Raytheon, IAI Rafael of Israel, France-based MBDA, Russia-based Rosoboronexport and the Doosan Group of South Korea.

None of the domestic company executives who received the request would comment on their capabilities to produce the MRSAM, nor would they say which overseas partners they would join.

“The main reason the Indian Defence Ministry is resorting to procuring the MRSAM under the ‘Buy and Make India’ category is to ensure that the system is produced in India with technology transfer from the start including the development stage so that there are no restrictions of any sort due to any international treaty at a future date,” said New Delhi-based defense analyst Nitin Mehta.
Specifications

The request for information says the detection range of the MRSAM should be more than 200 kilometers, and that the radar should have rain-clutter-rejection capability, atmospheric ionization rejection and compensation capability.

The system must have a maximum range of 100 kilometers and should be able to engage targets at 1,200 meters per second. The vendors will have to specify the kill probability for engagement envelopes of single and salvo launches.

The system should be all-terrain, day-and-night capable and mobile. In addition, it should be light enough to be transported by the Russian-made IL-76, and US-made C-130J and C-17 transport aircraft.


The Air Force intends to integrate the MRSAM with network-centric facilities available and under development. As far as communication systems are concerned, the system should be provided with wired, wireless and satellite communication facilities with secure, jam-proof facilities.

A DRDO scientist said the MRSAM system under development with Israel carries an active radar seeker, dual pulse rocket motor a robust electronic counter-counter measures features. The system can also be integrated with air-borne platforms such as airborne warning and control systems for centralized command and control
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

I thought Defense News would be devoid of DDMitis.
What is Home grown missile!!!


I understand indigenous or locally designed but home grown is a word for something like vegetables or talent. Its not used for high technology products.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

Yes lots of odd stuff ...

1. Arms Trade Treaty would restrict imports of MRSAM but not tanks, planes, Arty, Heli, ships, man-pads, etc?
2. Will a new project deliver faster than an ongoing one i.e. without FULL imports?
3. If IAI/DRDO failed will Kalyani/Tata/LT/Mahindra deliver soon?

If GOI is looking for a new deal maybe something else is wrong with the deal but likely the reporter screwed-up this report. However, failure of the test is not good news.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Karan M »

If the report is true, it just proves how a certain CAS forced this deal through, despite the fact that it was purely a paper product at the time, and not even based off of half developed tech like Brahmos was. Reports noted he held the Akash orders conditional to the MRSAM agreement

Later on he even became the rep of Rafael in India and went on to get into further trouble over the diluted specifications of the Agusta Westland deal and also got himself involved in the Track 2 peace talks or whatever.

IAI made good money off of India, and is focused on its local BMD programs.

This is why all those folks peddling JVs as the "solution for Indian requirements need to be taken with some healthy skepticism.

Coming to the news, the only way for any system to be available before 2017 is for it to be license produced in India by one of the aforementioned firms.

Of all those firms mentioned, BEL has significant radar capability (off of DRDO designs), L&T and Data Patterns have done some radar work for ISRO (tracking radars). Overall, there is very little chance of them being able to come up with a MRSAM on their own of any sort, as IAI and DRDO are facing challenges.

Basically a good opportunity for the usual foreign firms to sell their stuff to India, passing it off as "indigenous" under DPP, by transferring some production to India..
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Avarachan »

I think the real reason that Israel proposed the MR-SAM JV is because it wanted to study the BrahMos missile. (I've heard that India shipped a few BrahMos missiles to Israel for use as targets in the trials.)

Israel's failure to meet the project deadlines has resulted in some of the Indian Navy's most important assets being very vulnerable for the next few years. Somehow, I don't think that's an accident.

If India's defense-industrial complex were large enough, it wouldn't be duped into these moronic "joint ventures." Other countries have psychologically profiled Indians and have realized that Indians (for a variety of cultural reasons) believe in the idea of "collaboration." This is potentially very dangerous. Collaboration is only advisable if one's partner is trustworthy.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by NRao »

This is why all those folks peddling JVs as the "solution for Indian requirements need to be taken with some healthy skepticism.
So true. The "JV" mentality is a good one, but badly skewed. Especially when one considers the delta between some of these nations and that of the leading nation. The only thing going for India is that India - in general - will see pretty much anything out there as a step up (which is fine). But that step up itself is antiquated in comparison to the leader.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

on the ground some adaptation of ASter30 or the 9M96E1 systems will work out.

but what to do of the 3 huge kolkatta class destroyers the first of which is scheduled to handed over this year!
will they sail for 5 years without a SAM - and these were supposed to be AAW DDGs !

somewhere we have to take a call - persist with the JV or scrap it and fit these ships with ASter30 + EMPAR which again will surely add $500 mil each to the price tag and another 2 yrs to delivery
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Philip »

JVs which deliver on time and meet design parameters cannot be a bad thing.If we take even a cursory look at the best systems that we possess across the services,it is the JVs or,systems where we have improved the base model that gives us a qualitative edge against our troublesome neighbours.MKIs,Brahmos,the ATV.These immediately come to mind.Most of our so-called indigenous systems,barring the strategic missiles,have considerable foreign input.Every engine for armoured vehicles,aircraft and warships and subs are foreign.In the case of Barak-8,there is a shroud of secrecy over the deal.Barak-1 was acquired when Trishul failed to deliver.It was desperately needed at the time and a proven missile that was easy to install on new and existing warships.However,for the MR-SAM,there were other European (Aster) and Russian missiles available.There should've been a transparent face off and evaluation of the lot.Why no naval version of Akash was also considered is a moot Q.I remember mooting such a venture several years ago when the missile had turned a milestone.Now with the development of the B-8 delayed by a few years,and "no light at the end of the tunnel",the IN's follow on Delhis,the "K"s are languishing without their primary air-defence system.There should at least be a cut-off date for integration of such systems with a back-up plan available,such as the VLS Shtil ,the proven SAM that serves aboard the earlier Delhis and Talwars.The destroyers and their eqpt. aboard are now going to rust in the dockyard.

After the failure of Trishul,and that was a long time ago,the urgent need for SAMs for short range and Pechora replacements still existed.Why the DRDO did not start new programmes for the same is a mystery as it was bitterly opposed to the acquisition of Barak and Uncle George faced much flak over the Barak.In fact a family of SAMs of varying ranges for the three services,just as the rest of the world is doing,should've been initiated. ASTRA could've also had its land/naval based version developed.

I've just read Singha's post which echoes the same ideas.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

another option could be the SM2 + SPY1F as seen on the spanish F100 class ships and Denmark Nansen DDG. its a proven system and under FMS the deal will be quick. the US is interested anyway in selling more to IN to establish some footprint.

the Danes have a very similar main mast as the Kolkata class and the radar is fitted up there similar to what was planned for mf-star
[img]
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/197/5004 ... 78f245.jpg[/img]
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

As for Kolkotta class destroyer they should have opted for Aster/EMPAR combination which was available and deployed on few Western ships , When Kolkatta class was launched Barak-8 wasnt even launched once and it was under works only in 2010 the first ground launch took place , so delays were inbuilt into the program.

Considering IN bad expereince with Trishul where ship commisioned was without SAM for few year and that too Trishul was at advanced stage of testing than being a paper product , Wonder how the Navy was naive enough not to learn from its past experience , was Navy forced to opt for Barak-8 ?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

the argument against aster was it would not involve any "learning" and would cost a lot.
this deal was supposed to teach us the LRSAM thing.

now I think we will both have to pay heavily plus not learn anything other than a good lesson not to trust yahudis too much.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by John »

It is highly unlikely UK would ever approve sales of Aster 30 to IN from what i understand even RSN Formidable only carry Aster 15.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

Singha wrote:the argument against aster was it would not involve any "learning" and would cost a lot.
this deal was supposed to teach us the LRSAM thing.

now I think we will both have to pay heavily plus not learn anything other than a good lesson not to trust yahudis too much.
They should be left the learning for future ships i.e P-17A class and others but for P-15A/B they should have standardized on Aster .....cant make ships hostage to projects on paper/development when we are running short of ships already and built in delay by MDL.

Now P-15A class needs to wait till Barak-8 is fully ready for deployment as accepted by Navy .... or they end up deploying hastily on ships partially tested system to avoid delays ...both has its own downfall.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Philip »

What the RN is going to use as its primary anti-air missile system. A very neat stealth design.The SAM is also being retrofitted to the earlier Type-23.Soemthing to chew upon.

BAE Announces New Type 26 Warship Partners
By Bill Sweetman [email protected]
The U.K. government also announced a production contract this week for the Type 26’s anti-air weapon, the MBDA Sea Ceptor missile, which together with the BAE Artisan radar is being retrofitted to the ships that Type 26 will replace, the Royal Navy’s Type 23 frigates. The new warship will carry 48 Sea Ceptor rounds in two 24-missile silos located fore and aft, and also will have space for up to 24 anti-ship or land-attack missiles.

Other future contracts include the handling system for the Type 26’s modular mission bay, located forward of the helicopter hangar at main-deck level. The system will be designed to move payloads such as rigid hull inflatable boats and unmanned surface and underwater vehicles around the bay, and launch and recover them through side doors.

The Main Gate decision to build 13 Type 26s in two subtypes — anti-submarine and general-purpose — is expected in time to allow construction to start in 2016, with the ships entering service after 2020.
More on the MBDA Sea Ceptor SAM award.

MBDA Secures Sea Ceptor Naval Missile Deal
By Anthony Osborne [email protected]
MBDA Secures Sea Ceptor Naval Missile Deal
European missile manufacturer MBDA has secured a £250 million ($400 million) production contract for the Sea Ceptor naval air defense missile.

The weapon, which has been under development as the Common Anti-air Modular Missile (CAMM), is a variant of the AIM-132 Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air missile, which has been modernized and modified for sea-based air defense. The weapon will be initially installed on the Royal Navy’s Type 23 frigates starting in 2016, replacing the aging Seawolf missile. Later the system will be integrated onto the navy’s new Type 26 Global Combat Ship frigates currently under development by BAE Systems.

Sea Ceptor uses an active seeker, and a soft vertical launch to counter aerial threats. Once installed on the Type 26, it will become the ship’s primary air defense system.

MBDA say the production contract also will help build a “common stockpile” of the weapon, which also is envisaged as a future missile for a land-based surface-to-air missile system.

The company says the production line will be “optimized to supply the U.K. requirements” while also supporting potential overseas customers who wish to acquire the system.

Final assembly of the Sea Ceptor missiles will be done at MBDA’s Lostock manufacturing and assembly facility while nine U.K.-based first-tier subcontractors are located across sites in England and Scotland.

Sea Ceptor is likely to be the first recipient of a new Inertial Measurement Unit (IMU) that has been developed by MBDA and UTC Aerospace Systems for use across a range of missiles in a bid to reduce the cost per weapon. Until now different missiles have required their own dedicated design of IMU, which is a critical part of the weapon’s guidance, navigation and control functions.

Rather than using high-cost fiber-optics, UTC is using Micro-Electro-Mechanical Systems (MEMS)-based IMUs, which MBDA says are “smaller, more versatile, and offer unparalleled value for money” when compared to traditional technologies. The company believes the new IMUs are suitable for a number of key programs including the Sea Ceptor, the U.K.’s Selected Precision Effects at Range (Spear) III network-enabled stand-off air-to-ground weapon, and the Future Anti-Surface Guided Weapon (Heavy), which is the planned replacement for the Sea Skua anti-ship missile and will eventually equip the AgustaWestland AW159 Lynx Wildcat.
John
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by John »

Hindsight is 50/50 but as i mentioned earlier Aster is unlikely without UK's blessing for Aster 30 and lot of cash $$ to cover the money France-UK have spent in its development.

Should have had an parallel indigenous program for naval AAD.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

sea ceptor is too short range for AAW area defence role. it covers the Shtil bubble only. no can do for K class.
Singha
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

another option could be the Poliment-Redut system from Russia. it uses 9M96 and 9M100 missiles(quad pack) and 4 panel radar.
but it was supposed to start test only end of 2012 so not sure how ready it is.
member_27721
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_27721 »

Dear All, Had a question why is this QR-SAM required by army why can't army use AKASH
kit
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by kit »

Philip wrote:What the RN is going to use as its primary anti-air missile system. A very neat stealth design.The SAM is also being retrofitted to the earlier Type-23.Soemthing to chew upon.

BAE Announces New Type 26 Warship Partners
By Bill Sweetman [email protected]
The U.K. government also announced a production contract this week for the Type 26’s anti-air weapon, the MBDA Sea Ceptor missile, which together with the BAE Artisan radar is being retrofitted to the ships that Type 26 will replace, the Royal Navy’s Type 23 frigates. The new warship will carry 48 Sea Ceptor rounds in two 24-missile silos located fore and aft, and also will have space for up to 24 anti-ship or land-attack missiles.

Other future contracts include the handling system for the Type 26’s modular mission bay, located forward of the helicopter hangar at main-deck level. The system will be designed to move payloads such as rigid hull inflatable boats and unmanned surface and underwater vehicles around the bay, and launch and recover them through side doors.

The Main Gate decision to build 13 Type 26s in two subtypes — anti-submarine and general-purpose — is expected in time to allow construction to start in 2016, with the ships entering service after 2020.

Wasnt India sounded out on development partnership for the Type 26 frigate ?
Manish_Sharma
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Austin wrote:As for Kolkotta class destroyer they should have opted for Aster/EMPAR combination which was available and deployed on few Western ships , When Kolkatta class was launched Barak-8 wasnt even launched once and it was under works only in 2010 the first ground launch took place , so delays were inbuilt into the program.
This link says that israeli navy going to deploy Barak-8 by 2013 end.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ind ... sam-03461/
July 31/13: Israeli installation. India may give the Barak-8 LR-SAM’s date of probable completion as 2015, but Israel intends to have the missile installed on its 3 Sa’ar 5 Eilat Class corvettes before the end of 2013.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by arijitkm »

Don't know, where to post ! Salute to our 'Missileman' !!!

How Obama swearing-in scuttled BrahMos missile’s test flight
The swearing-in ceremony of Barack Obama as US President in January 2009 had a disastrous impact on the test-firing of the BrahMos supersonic missile, according to A. Sivathanu Pillai, chief executive and managing director.

The missile team had a nasty surprise when the test-firing failed. On analysis, the reason was traced to an erroneous GPS calculation.

On detailed investigation, it was revealed that due to security reasons, the US had switched off GPS signals during the swearing-in ceremony.

This was unexpected and the control and navigational system of the missile, which uses GPS data, failed. Pillai said this during a seminar here on ‘Achieving excellence through lessons from successes and failures’ at the Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre.

He recounted such interesting incidents from India’s space and military programme over the years.

DESTRAUGHT KALAM

Former President and ace space scientist A.P.J Abdul Kalam and his team once demonstrated an experiment to Vikram Sarabhai, but it failed.

The time was around 7 p.m. Sarabhai consoled Kalam and asked him to rectify the defects and get going by 9 p.m.

Later into the night, Sarabhai witnessed the demo once again but it failed a second time. Sarabhai said he would come back next morning. Kalam and his team worked through the night and set up the system.

Sarabhai walked in early next morning. Before Kalam could set up the show, he was called aside and told: “I want to give you a paper.”

Kalam nervously skimmed through the contents only to find that it was his promotion order.

COMPUTING INGENUITY

The Prithvi missile programme demanded super computing prowess that India did not possess. The US was not ready to make the computer available to India either.

Kalam led a small team of scientists to the US to see whether the US Government could be persuaded to sell their super computer Craig.

But an apprehensive US official turned down the request and told Kalam: “Sorry Dr Kalam, we will give you good lunch and dinner, but no Craig computer.”

Kalam came back empty-handed, but went on to develop the Pace Plus computer with help from the Indian Institute of Science and others in two years. And, Pace Plus proved to be 20 times faster than Craig!
Austin
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

Why would US switch off GPS in our region if Obama is swearing in US which is like thousands of km away ........more ever US cannot switch off GPS as Civilian Aircraft use it.

More likely the switch off was deliberate or could be some guidance issue with Brahmos or its GPS receiver.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Or there was degraded accuracy in terms of civ available GPS that day for the region and this reason is as good as any other as to why the US did what it did.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by PratikDas »

I think the author meant to write about the Cray supercomputer, not Craig.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

cross-post

US offers to co-develop advanced Javelin missile with India
US had proposed that her companies could join hands with Indian partners in setting up manufacturing facilities for five major systems in India
The US Deputy Secretary of Defence, Ashton Carter, who arrives in India on Monday for a two-day visit, has masterminded a proposal that could dramatically boost US-India defence relations.

The US Department of Defence (Pentagon) has written to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) proposing that the two countries collaborate in jointly developing a next-generation version of the Javelin anti-tank missile.

India has been offered a specific share of the development programme and requested to respond by a specific date. The Pentagon is going ahead with this progamme on its own if India chooses not to participate.

Last year, Carter had proposed that US companies could join hands with Indian partners in setting up manufacturing facilities for five major systems in India. These include the MH-60 Romeo multi-role helicopter, built by Sikorsky and Lockheed Martin; a delivery system for scatterable mines; and the M-45 127 millimetre rapid-fire naval gun. Later, the US proposed co-producing the Javelin missile, which is built by Raytheon and Lockheed Martin;

New Delhi has not yet responded to the co-manufacture proposal. Now Carter has raised the ante with his proposal for co-developing the next-generation Javelin.

India has a successful co-development project with Russia for the Brahmos cruise missile, and with Israel for the Long Range Surface to Air Missile (LR-SAM) and Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MR-SAM). But with the US, India has only bought equipment over-the-counter. American equipment has not even been manufactured in India with technology transfer, far less co-developed.

US officials, speaking anonymously, confirm that the co-development proposal will be on Ashton Carter’s discussion agenda during his meetings in New Delhi on Tuesday. Carter will be meeting a range of Indian officials, including National Security Advisor, Shivshankar Menon.

Top Indian MoD sources confirm to Business Standard that the US co-development proposal for the next-generation Javelin has been received and is being evaluated.

A senior DRDO source also confirmed the US offer, but played it cool. He said, “The DRDO welcomes co-development of advanced weapon systems, provided there is real technological collaboration involved. India needs to fill its technology gaps and co-development should ensure that both partners build upon their mutual strengths.”

Carter’s proposal is part of a 15-month-old American push to intensify its defence relationship with India. Earlier, in response to New Delhi’s interest in the Javelin, the US State Department had observed that fulfilling India’s requirement would “alter the regional military balance.” Worse, Washington refused to transfer key technologies that New Delhi insisted upon as a part of the deal.

That approach changed dramatically since June 2012, when then US Defence Secretary Leon Panetta, nominated Ashton Carter, to break down the bureaucratic barriers in Washington that impeded the US-India defence relationship --- which Washington had determined was pivotal to America’s future in Asia. A formal mechanism called the DTI --- tellingly, the US called it the Defence Trade Initiative, while India referred to it as Defence Technology Initiative --- was set up. Carter co-chairs it along with National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon,

A close watcher of the Pentagon says Carter has pushed the US bureaucracy hard to change their approach to India. Earlier, US officials regarded India as just another non-NATO country --- one with which America did not even have a formal alliance, and which was unwilling to sign cooperative agreements with the US.

“Before Carter got to work, releasing technology to India required a comprehensive justification to be made out. By April 2013, Pentagon officials needed to justify why a particular technology could not be released to India,” says the Pentagon watcher.

The Javelin is now a focus area for Carter. At one stage, the Indian MoD was close to buying a rival missile, the Israeli Spike, for its $1-1.5 billion tender for 8,400 missiles and 321 launcher units for the army’s 350-plus infantry units. But the MoD, wary of a single-vendor buy, ordered a “technology scan” to ascertain that there was no missile on the market other than the Spike.

The FGM-148 Javelin, jointly built by US companies, Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, is the world’s premier man-portable, anti-tank missile. It gives infantrymen, highly vulnerable to enemy tanks on the battlefield, a weapon with which to destroy heavy armoured vehicles from a distance of 2.5 kilometres.

But the Israeli Spike, while not nearly as capable, is likely to be a good deal cheaper. If the MoD chooses price over capability, the Spike is likely to emerge the winner.

“But if the MoD agrees to Washington’s co-development proposal, the Javelin would become the clear front-runner for the $1-1.5 billion Indian contract. That is now a realistic prospect,” says a well informed member of the US defence industry.
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