Internal Security Watch

morem · Post by **morem** » 12 Sep 2013 10:12

Liloji ,
this post made my day

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Sep 2013 10:16

this is a very serious accusation. but nothing presented so far convinces me that rsangram is a pakistani masquerading as an Indian.

disagreement on opinions does not automatically make someone a paki. in any case we have nothing against pakis participating here provided they follow the board rules. let's not act like the deff and dumb fora guys.

to sum up, unjustified accusations about a member is taken very seriously by the mods.
consequently, I would expect the past few posts to disappear as quickly as possible, by the posters themselves. otherwise very stern action would follow when the 24 hr window closes.
- Rahul.

p.s. there shall be no more posts on this topic.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 12 Sep 2013 10:59

RahulM ji,
Such things can't be proved 100% .. This is an online forum after all..
But user post history is there to see always ... And connect the dots about the posters attributes and intents...

I know Paki's can be members here just as anyone else...
So why can't rsangram stop masquerading as an Indian and come out and post happily as a Pakistani in the open ??

...........

In comparision look at this Rsangram person... She wades into a Sikh Wisconsin shooting thread and makes it an Hindu victimization issue. If this is not the clearest case of pakiness I don't know what is.

.............

For now I'll keep my posts - after all it is me who raised this issue and is putting together facts to show that rsangram is indeed a paki

____________________________

Lilo ji, unfortunately that is not enough to pass judgement regarding nationality. in any case, pakiness is a state of the mind and there are unfortunately, enough Indians who display it. it is also immaterial, display of pakiness should anyway get people banned.

lastly, this thread is NOT meant for discussing a members posting habit. such posts should go in the forum feedback thread. I would once again request you and the other members to delete their OT posts.
Rahul.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 12 Sep 2013 11:04

I am beginning to think that the Jats actually did retaliate, contrary to the perception here that it was one sided round to the faithfools. The drama of victimization by Muslims and Azam Khan points to two things :

1. Either the muslims did not get to kill enough kafirs and hence the disappointment, or
2. The Jats gave them a few jhappad that were enough to trigger the victimization drama, hence the anger against Akhilesh government for not saving the pissfuls from a deserved jhappad by the Jats

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Sep 2013 11:44

Article in HIndu..by SV. Pretty bold by it's standards:

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/w ... 113769.ece

habal · Post by **habal** » 12 Sep 2013 11:47

the SP of Shamli Abdul Hamid (who happens to be related to Azam Khan) was instrumental in allowing issues to precipitate by not taking action against the culprits who prompted the violence. He has been found mentioning off record that "he is a muslim first and police officer second". Shops in Shamli were closed to force him to be suspended or transferred for his complicity in riots. Only after he was transferred were shops reopened.

http://www.one.in/niti-central/muzaffar ... 77661.html

The non-Hindu meanwhile is mischief mongering as usual ..

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/w ... 113769.ece

One Sangh activist, who insisted on being anonymous, told The Hindu, “For the first time, Jats and Muslims are fighting each other. This is a great achievement. Jats have begun thinking like Hindus first. If more Hindu castes fight with Muslims, it will be better for us. BJP will benefit.”

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 499368.cms

UP riots pushing Jats towards BJP?

MUZAFFARNAGAR (Western UP): The Ram Janambhoomi-Babri Masjid churn couldn't shake the Jats' loyalty to Ajit Singh's Rashtriya Lok Dal. Equally, the Muslims remained steadfast in their support for Mulayam Singh Yadav all these years. But this time around, these strong support bases appear to be developing cracks.

While SP, the ruling party in UP, is being blamed by Muslims for failing to protect them and, in some cases, for a collusive role in fomenting riots, the Jats seem to be going with other Hindus and are looking up to BJP's Narendra Modi as their saviour from the state government's "misrule".

Needless to say, these fresh pulls could have a deep impact in the coming Lok Sabha election. It is clear that the riots have benefitted the BJP the most. It is also clear that the losers are [COLOR=#0000FF !important]Samajwadi Party[/COLOR] and RLD.

In villages across Muzaffarnagar and Shamli districts, the common refrain among a substantial section of Hindus is, "Modi lao, desh bachao." Even RLD and Congress workers are singing paeans in praise of Modi while spewing venom against the Muslims and parties that "favour" them.

The riots in Muzaffarnagar and Shamli are bearing out what has often been said of Modi: that his is a polarizing presence.

A young Muslim IPS officer, who was tainted as communal and partisan, was transferred out after a sustained campaign. "He was targeted because he belongs to a particular community. I have known him to be neutral," said a senior IPS officer of UP. Similar views about the young officer were echoed by several officials as well as by government doctors.

Seeds of mistrust are fast fraying the chord that united the Jats and the Muslims, a potent electoral combine, for decades. Provocative speeches from a series of panchayat meets, sustained campaigns about SP's minority appeasement policies, and painting the Muslims as "undesirable elements", have steadily chiseled away this joint plank.

The Muslims have been worst hit in the current riots, admitted a senior police officer. "Riots were never so bad in this region. Never have riots forced hundreds of Muslims to flee their homes and live in refugee camps. It seems like India-Pakistan in the villages," said a senior UP official.

Bijender Singh Malik, pradhan of Muzaffarnagar's Kharar village, saved 150 Muslims from rioters and gave them shelter in his house. Malik, a Jat, is an avowed RLD supporter and has also voted for SP. He conceded that BJP never could make any headway in this region, not even during the Babri Masjid phase. But, he too, like almost all the Hindus of Kharar and neighbouring Fugana, has decided to vote for Modi.

His views find strong resonance throughout the riot-hit region. Though government records prove beyond doubt that Muslims were the worst hit and that most killed in the riots are Muslims, the plight of the community doesn't appear to evoke sympathy among the Hindus. And that's a bigger wound that won't heal easily.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 12 Sep 2013 11:58

Rahul ji
If the issue is off topic discussion - I will gladly delete posts from this thread and post them in feedback thread of GDF.
You can choose what to do from that point ahead.

PS: Editing is locked for my above post in this thread (probably because it has a mod comment in it)

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Sep 2013 12:01

The standards of the "un-Hindu" can be judged when i read statements like:

The Bajrang Dal leader, who has traces of a red tika on his forehead, then says,

habal · Post by **habal** » 12 Sep 2013 13:25

Relatives dig graves for the victims of the communal violence in Muzaffarnagar on Tuesday.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 12 Sep 2013 13:32

Double checked to see if it was indeed The Hindu..
x-posted from Psy Ops thread..
If Chindu reports like the below, then there is some thing seriously going on. Looks like members of a particular community was in for a few surprises this time.
‘Mulayam hits with one hand, soothes with the other’
The administration has not revealed the religious identities of those killed. But while more Hindus are understood to have been at the receiving end on Saturday, Muslims have borne the brunt of the violence since then.
Other gems...

A newly-appointed SSP marched through Khalapar, considered among the most sensitive of spots in the town.
.....
Sitting outside, Inam Elahi Sabri ‘Pahalwan’, a Muslim elder, was seething. Mr. Sabri said he was “close” to Mulayam Singh. “I have spent eight days at his home in Safai. I forced the entire qaum in this area to vote for SP. And look, this is what they gave us,” he said, surveying the street. “It is the biggest dhoka [betrayal].”
.....
Large sections of non-Muslims — a Sikh hotelier in Saharanpur, a Jain trader in Meerut, a secular Hindu activist with a civil society organisation, activists of Rashtriya Lok Dal and even Congress, besides the BJP — argue that the SP had been “partial” towards Muslims.
.....
“The clash between the boys on August 27 was a minor incident, but it was allowed to escalate.”
.....
No one wants to return. Unless they are given assurances by the Jats of the village — who beat them, who killed their relatives, who confiscated their property — that nothing will happen now, how can they go back?”

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Sep 2013 14:51

Wonder who all these "historians" are. X-post:

sum wrote:Interesting psy-ops bit:
Exclusive: The real story of 'Police Action' against Nizam in 1948

It is one of the best-kept secrets in the annals of Indian history.

What exactly happened in Hyderabad on and after 17 September 1948 when the might of the Indian Army forced the Nizam of Hyderabad to surrender and merge his kingdom with the Indian Union, 13 months after India had become an independent country?

The day is celebrated every year by the votaries of Telangana -- that is pretty much the old Hyderabad state geographically, barring districts that became part of present-day Maharashtra and Karnataka -- as Hyderabad Liberation Day.

Except that if they knew the bloodshed that took place then, they would realise there isn't much to celebrate about.

After reports that the Nizam's Army was committing atrocities on innocent civilians, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru and Sardar Patel decided enough was enough and ordered the Army into Hyderabad.

Though its technical names were "Operation Polo" and "Operation Caterpillar", it was more commonly referred to as "Police Action".

And while there was no resistance from the Nizam's Army, civilians indulged in loot and killings, largely of the minority community. And the Indian state turned a blind eye to what happened.

"There were more like revenge killings as well as loot. More so of Muslim traders particularly in the districts that today are part of Karnataka and Maharashtra,"' says Captain Pandu Ranga Reddy, a researcher.

A three-member delegation of Congress leaders, consisting of Pandit Sunderlal, Kazi Abdul Ghaffar and Moulana Misri, toured Hyderabad for three weeks in December 1948 and submitted a report from ground zero. And their report was so explosive that till date, it has not been declassified.

A request by Pandu Ranga Reddy to the Nehru Memorial Museum and Library at Teenmurti House in New Delhi asked for the Sunderlal report on Hyderabad, through the RTI Act.

The library replied to Reddy in January that the said report was not available.

However, historian Md Safiullah, using his influential contacts, could finally procure a copy of the report titled 'CONFIDENTIAL' in July this year.

The report under a heading 'Killing and Looting' states: "We can say at a very conservative estimate that in the whole state at least 27,000 to 40,000 people lost their lives during and after Police Action".

Historians say the then government was not pleased with the work done by the committee, with Patel personally chiding the members. "I have copies of the letters written by Sardar Patel to Kazi Abdul Ghaffar asking him who asked you to go to Hyderabad. Who asked you to report all these things about the Government of India?' says Safiullah.

The name Police Action too was coined essentially with a view to hoodwink the United Nations.

The term Police Action was a misnomer because if the Indian government had called it military action, it would have invited UN intervention as it would have been seen as India invading another state.

"It would have led to war,'" says Safiullah.

The Nizam did go to the UN but he withdrew his complaint on September 17 in a broadcast to the Hyderabad state.

However, the UN refused to pay heed to it, arguing that the withdrawal was under duress and kept it alive for another 50 years.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Sep 2013 15:07

sum wrote:Wonder who all these "historians" are. X-post:
{quote="sum"}Interesting psy-ops bit:
Exclusive: The real story of 'Police Action' against Nizam in 1948

{quote}It is one of the best-kept secrets in the annals of Indian history.

What exactly happened in Hyderabad on and after 17 September 1948 when the might of the Indian Army forced the Nizam of Hyderabad to surrender and merge his kingdom with the Indian Union, 13 months after India had become an independent country?

The day is celebrated every year by the votaries of Telangana -- that is pretty much the old Hyderabad state geographically, barring districts that became part of present-day Maharashtra and Karnataka -- as Hyderabad Liberation Day.

Except that if they knew the bloodshed that took place then, they would realise there isn't much to celebrate about.

After reports that the Nizam's Army was committing atrocities on innocent civilians, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru and Sardar Patel decided enough was enough and ordered the Army into Hyderabad.

Though its technical names were "Operation Polo" and "Operation Caterpillar", it was more commonly referred to as "Police Action".

And while there was no resistance from the Nizam's Army, civilians indulged in loot and killings, largely of the minority community. And the Indian state turned a blind eye to what happened.

"There were more like revenge killings as well as loot. More so of Muslim traders particularly in the districts that today are part of Karnataka and Maharashtra,"' says Captain Pandu Ranga Reddy, a researcher.

{/quote}

A three-member delegation of Congress leaders, consisting of Pandit Sunderlal, Kazi Abdul Ghaffar and Moulana Misri, toured Hyderabad for three weeks in December 1948 and submitted a report from ground zero. And their report was so explosive that till date, it has not been declassified.

A request by Pandu Ranga Reddy to the Nehru Memorial Museum and Library at Teenmurti House in New Delhi asked for the Sunderlal report on Hyderabad, through the RTI Act.

The library replied to Reddy in January that the said report was not available.

However, historian Md Safiullah, using his influential contacts, could finally procure a copy of the report titled 'CONFIDENTIAL' in July this year.

The report under a heading 'Killing and Looting' states: "We can say at a very conservative estimate that in the whole state at least 27,000 to 40,000 people lost their lives during and after Police Action".

Historians say the then government was not pleased with the work done by the committee, with Patel personally chiding the members. "I have copies of the letters written by Sardar Patel to Kazi Abdul Ghaffar asking him who asked you to go to Hyderabad. Who asked you to report all these things about the Government of India?' says Safiullah.

The name Police Action too was coined essentially with a view to hoodwink the United Nations.

The term Police Action was a misnomer because if the Indian government had called it military action, it would have invited UN intervention as it would have been seen as India invading another state.

"It would have led to war,'" says Safiullah.

The Nizam did go to the UN but he withdrew his complaint on September 17 in a broadcast to the Hyderabad state.

However, the UN refused to pay heed to it, arguing that the withdrawal was under duress and kept it alive for another 50 years.

{/quote}{/quote}

'Hindu atrocities" is OK but a factual telling of muslim atrocities over the centuries will hurt the sentiments of the minorities onlee.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 12 Sep 2013 16:48

habal wrote:the SP of Shamli Abdul Hamid (who happens to be related to Azam Khan) was instrumental in allowing issues to precipitate by not taking action against the culprits who prompted the violence. He has been found mentioning off record that "he is a muslim first and police officer second". Shops in Shamli were closed to force him to be suspended or transferred for his complicity in riots. Only after he was transferred were shops reopened.

Why should this be shocking? If it is shocking then one is utterly clueless about islam. Have met many muslims (including bunch of Phds in physics(not just indian nationals), other sciences to utterly down to earth butchers, traders etc), and always found that being muslim is primary identity with other characteristics are incidental and secondary. Maybe very few would indicate otherwise. In most radicals primary identity of being islam is the only thing that matters. Islam demands and muslims comply to it.

To insist otherwise is to remiss the lessons that should have been learnt through decades/if not for centuries.
The question is when the state institutions become shariah compliant, then one is sure of the rot.

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 12 Sep 2013 16:57

Rahul M wrote:this is a very serious accusation. but nothing presented so far convinces me that rsangram is a pakistani masquerading as an Indian.

disagreement on opinions does not automatically make someone a paki. in any case we have nothing against pakis participating here provided they follow the board rules. let's not act like the deff and dumb fora guys.

to sum up, unjustified accusations about a member is taken very seriously by the mods.
consequently, I would expect the past few posts to disappear as quickly as possible, by the posters themselves. otherwise very stern action would follow when the 24 hr window closes.
- Rahul.

p.s. there shall be no more posts on this topic.

Thanks.

My offer still stands. I am happy to identify myself to the administrators. My email should be on record at BRF, but if for some reasons, the admins do not have access to my email, please post here and I will be happy to post my email here, upon request. Also, I take this opportunity to invite the admins and others too, to read all my posts to get a pattern and an idea of where I am coming from.

However, one thing is perplexing. If the article quoted by LILO is authentic, then even I would starting suspecting that I am a Paki. I mean, the three sentences there are exact word for word matches between my post and that article. Please check the genuineness of that article that LILO has quoted here. It just cannot be, I mean it can be, but I cant believe it. My words in all my posts are all mine and I did not lift them from anywhere. Whenever I quote someone, I always attribute the source and put the quote in "quotes".

Also, my posts are consistent. My words are damning to the Pakis. I dont know how that makes me a Paki. But it is true that the main thrust and themes of my posts are damning towards not only the Indian Government but also Indian system of government which includes the Indian constitution. This is because I do not think the the Indian constitution as it exists right now, our system of government and our governing institutions serve the cause of either Hindus or India in any way. Therefore, I do advocate a change in the system and I am not averse to considering the so called "non-democratic" means to change them. I do not believe that tyranny can be overturned or overthrown by democratic means and I believe that we live under a tyranny of a Hindu Enslavement System imposed on us by the West and the Islamists.

I also believe that after a thousand years of oppression and subjugation, while so far, Hindus, despite suffering shrinkage in their territory consistently, and despite enduring tremendous assaults on their culture from all sides, have survived, but now the negative effects are becoming very evident and Hindus are at an inflection point. With Hindus now confined to only the sub-continent, and even the subcontinent more than 40% plus Islamic, they are well on their way to oblivion and very quickly if the trajectory is not reversed. Apart from common sense and logic which says that this downward trend will not only not reverse but accelerate under this Hindu Enslavement System, the empirical evidence clearly suggests that we are heading down, not up.

Yes, this is Kalyug, where the evil rule. But I do not believe that we are doomed to endure Kalyug without a fight. Lord Krishna in Geeta said that ours is not to be concerned about results, ours is to do our "Dharma" and "Karma". We cannot control the results, but we certainly can follow the right path, the path of righteousness, the path of Dharma. The path of Dharma cannot be this Hindu Enslavement System, otherwise our scriptures and Lord Krishna would have talked about a system akin to "democracy" and "socialism". Lord Krishna, Lord Rama and all our mythical figures are prime examples, of how we fight "adharma", and they involve weapons and they involved arms, but none of them involve "secularism" or "socialism".

Even if Kalyug dooms us to bad results, let us at least go down doing the right things, following the right path and not merely live like animals, indulging in gluttony, un-ending appetites for things - all unhealthy, which make us corrupt and force our inner selves to compromise with corruption and sink to depths, which degrade us, defile us, destroy our soul. Kalyug can only at worst kill our bodies. It is only us, who can kill our soul.

Lastly, I am for fighting the current Hindu Enslavement System, even on philosophical grounds, without the State overtly attacking the Hindus, but when the State actually starts overtly attacking the Hindus, as in the case of recent UP incidents, then Hindus not only have a right to fight back, but a duty to fight back, even against the State, because the State is the entity that is attacking us Hindus.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 12 Sep 2013 17:41

^^^ X-post far joo

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1509955

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Sep 2013 18:48

I think that article was quoting from Sangrams post. The quotes are not correctly put. But commenting on that article, why the authors have not pointed to the BENIS thread..am disappointed. That is where the forum mullahs congregate and according to pious rules dispense stribes, floggings, stoning and issue fatwas as have been accorded in Al Bakistan. Sad..

habal · Post by **habal** » 12 Sep 2013 18:49

Pakis have potential to copy from anywhere.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Sep 2013 19:01

Lilo wrote:^^^ X-post far joo

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1509955

Lilo, Back off. Please heed RahulM's advice.

Most likely the Pakis, being truly Bakis, quoted rsangram's posts and lifted them without paraphrasing.

Your efforts confrim what is known about the intellectual capabilities of Bakis

Eg AQ "Xerox " Khan who steal and calim as their own.

and rsangram, this is what happens when one constantly berates India in strident tones out of concern!!!

The GDF is there for such efforts.

One of these days someone will copy Spinster, CRS and other stalwarts.

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 12 Sep 2013 19:52

ramana wrote:
and rsangram, this is what happens when one constantly berates India in strident tones out of concern!!!

The GDF is there for such efforts.

Berate India ?? Never. India is as sacred and holy to me as Ma Bhavani. In fact, India is Ma Bhavani.

I do berate the Indian system of governance as a whole. And the reason I do it is precisely because the current system of governance is ANTI-INDIA, defiles India, rapes India, allows others to rape India.

I would expect at least people on this forum(not you Ramanna, I know you understand, but others), even if they disagree with me about the Indian system of governance, to know the difference between India, the sacred of the most sacred lands and culture and the current Indian System of Governance.

Anyway, your point is well taken. Perhaps GDF is the place to express more fully.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Sep 2013 20:03

I do berate the Indian system of governance as a whole. And the reason I do it is precisely because the current system of governance is ANTI-INDIA, defiles India, rapes India, allows others to rape India.

I would expect at least people on this forum(not you Ramanna, I know you understand, but others), even if they disagree with me about the Indian system of governance, to know the difference between India, the sacred of the most sacred lands and culture and the current Indian System of Governance.

What to do with those who think India is Congress and Congress is India?

This is a an imperial statment from Louis XIV" I am the State!"

rs and all others, Think of your self in a train. You are near the engine. Some are in the passenger compartments, while others are in the guards compartment/caboose, while many are not even at the train station!
So need to tailor the message to the many.

People get mad at me for not posting long posts. Some whine about it in the nether world!
I like/try to put not more than three ideas in one post for the brain can't digest more than that.
And usually say my most important thing in the first point and repeat in the last one.

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 12 Sep 2013 20:57

ramana wrote:
I do berate the Indian system of governance as a whole. And the reason I do it is precisely because the current system of governance is ANTI-INDIA, defiles India, rapes India, allows others to rape India.

I would expect at least people on this forum(not you Ramanna, I know you understand, but others), even if they disagree with me about the Indian system of governance, to know the difference between India, the sacred of the most sacred lands and culture and the current Indian System of Governance.

What to do with those who think India is Congress and Congress is India?

This is a an imperial statment from Louis XIV" I am the State!"

rs and all others, Think of your self in a train. You are near the engine. Some are in the passenger compartments, while others are in the guards compartment/caboose, while many are not even at the train station!
So need to tailor the message to the many.

People get mad at me for not posting long posts. Some whine about it in the nether world!
I like/try to put not more than three ideas in one post for the brain can't digest more than that.
And usually say my most important thing in the first point and repeat in the last one.

Point well taken. Thanks

anchal · Post by **anchal** » 12 Sep 2013 20:59

Yes going by secular rudalis a particular community has got its share. Mulayam should be a worried man now

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Sep 2013 22:21

Yasin Bhatkal says IM is funded by Pak ISI.

So why was Doggy Singh rudaliing after Batala House police raid?
ibn REPORTS:

IM funded and managed by ISI:Yasin Bhatkal

How come the media doesn't want to call him out on this?
Doggy Singh has done a lot of damage to the morale of honest Indians.

And MMS still wants to meet Badmash even after these revelations!!!

Has INC disowned Doggy Singh's mis-statements?

New Delhi: Terror group Indian Mujahideen is fully funded and managed by Pakistani intelligence agency the ISI, reveals the interrogation of terror suspect Muhammad Ahmad Zarar Siddibapa alias Yasin Bhatkal. CNN-IBN has accessed key details of Yasin Bhatkal's interrogation report in which he has also admitted to involvement in 10 terror attacks in India since 2007.

Yasin Bhatkal also told the investigators the ISI created Indian Mujahideen to give the impression of home grown terror in India. The move also helped the ISI to hide its own footprints on terror strikes in India.

The investigators found 70 improvised explosive devices (IEDs) and raw material from Mangalore hideout after Yasin Bhatkal's disclosures. According to the officials say 2011 Mumbai serial blasts suspects escaped just a few hours before a raid on their Mangalore hideout.

Yasin Bhatkal's interrogation report also suggests that Indian Mujahideen's operations are much larger than initial estimates. He is suspected to have been involved in the 2007 Hyderabad blasts, 2008 Ahmedabad serial blasts, 2011 Pune's German Bakery blast and the Dilsukhnagar blasts in Hyderabad again in 2013.

He also made a shocking revelation saying the Indian Mujahideen was planning a devastating sequence of blasts.

Agencies interrogating Yasin Bhatkal and his aide Asadullah Akhtar alias Haddi found 70 improvised explosive devices at their Mangalore hideout after he disclosed details of the terror lab to probe officers.

Details of Yasin Bhatkal's interrogation report suggest the Mangalore hideout was being used by his aides Waqas and Tabrez alias Sonu for assembling IEDs.

Investigators said suspects Waqas and Tabrez who are accused of planting bombs at Mumbai's Zaveri Bazar and Opera House in 2011 fled from the Mangalore hideout just a few hours before the raid leaving behind their clothes, personal belongings and circuits to make IEDs.

The interrogation report also says Pakistan-based Iqbal Bhatkal was fronting the ISI plan to instruct Yasin Bhatkal to train and motivate educated Indian youths for jihad so that Pakistan can hide its footprints and showcase Indian Mujahideen as evidence of India's home grown terror.

While agencies long suspected the Pakistan connection, Yasin Bhatkal's detailing of terror conspiracies has given them some valuable insight.

Yasin Bhatkal has claimed that he personally trained Akbar Ismail Chaudhary and Mohsin Chaudhary in a farm house of Chikmanglore in Karnataka for carrying out the 2007 Hyderabad blasts. Videos of Osama bin Laden and US-Afghan raids were shown to Akbar Ismail Chaudhary and Mohsin Chaudhary to keep them motivated.

He also claimed that he reconnaissance Ahmedabad before identifying spots to plant 16 bombs in 2008. He provided explosives to main accused Qayamuddin Kapadia and also arranged his stay. Yasin Bhatkal also claimed that he did not want to use a stolen car for the serial blast but was forced to do so by Iqbal and Riyaz Bhatkal who wanted maximum impact.

Yasin Bhatkal also accepted he himself planted the bomb at Pune's German Bakery. He also said the now dead Qatil Siddiqui was to plant a bomb the same day at the Pune's Ganesh Temple but developed cold feet. According to Yasin Bhatkal Himayat Beig, the man convicted in the case, had no role to play.

Security and intelligence agencies were hopeful that the Indian Mujahideen menace has ended after Delhi's Batla House encounter which eliminated the Azamgarh module of the terror group, but blasts in Hyderabad's Dilsukhnagar, Bangalore and Bodh Gaya in Bihar have shattered that assumption.

Yasin Bhatkal may be in the police net but his interrogation is making agencies apprehensive that his arrest too may not be the end of the Indian Mujahideen story, especially since his aides like Waqas, Tabrez and Mirza Beig are still on the run.

and

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/yasin ... b/1168050/

Information obtained from Indian Mujahideen co-founder Yasin Bhatkal and his fellow operative Asadullah Akhtar is believed to have led security agencies to an apartment in Mangalore suspected to have been used to make bombs for the twin blasts in Hyderabad in February and for future attacks elsewhere in the country.

Hyderabad blasts: NIA interrogates Indian Mujahideen operatives

The third floor, rented apartment at Zephyr Heights in the Attavar region of Mangalore was traced last Saturday after the National Investigation Agency brought Asadullah, 26, who was arrested on August 28 with Yasin on the Bihar-Nepal border, on a chartered flight to the coastal Karnataka city.

Hyderabad blasts: South still source of IM explosives

The discovery of 50 digital watches — several with wires connected to transform them into bomb timers, a few cell phones with wiring to again enable their use as timers in bombs, three electrical detonators, about 125 gm of ammonium nitrate gel, fuel oil and a pocket book on bomb circuitry have led investigators to believe that the Mangalore apartment was some kind of an IM bomb lab.

{Where was the pocket book from and even if it was a Paki manual does it have any data from such other manuals from abroad?}

Related: IM bombed Hyderabad to 'avenge' Mecca Masjid blasts

Asadullah claimed he had lived in the apartment for six months until March this year, using it as a base to travel to Hyderabad to plant the bombs for the strike on February 21. He claimed he had returned to Mangalore after the bombing and then moved out, sources said.

Related: A wife who keeps to herself

He is also believed to have claimed that he shared the flat with two other IM operatives — Tahseen Akhtar alias Monu alias Hasan, 23, from Bihar and Waqas alias Ahmed, 28, from Pakistan. The two are suspected to be experts in connecting the circuits of IEDs and were also involved in the Hyderabad blasts. In fact, it is suspected that they were in the flat until as recently as the arrest of Yasin and Asadullah.

Asadullah is also believed to have told investigators that he, Monu and Waqas experimented with circuitry for IEDs for the Hyderabad blasts at the Mangalore flat and prepared timer circuits which were then used to assemble the final bombs at a rented premises in Hyderabad.

{Was the Hyderabad premises raided yet?}

Related: Yasin Bhatkal's footprints all over

Sources said Asadullah had claimed that he was only involved in planting the bombs and that Monu and Waqas were the experts in connecting the circuitry involving the timers, batteries, detonators and the main explosives.

The attacks that Monu and Waqas are suspected to have been involved - Mumbai July 13, 2011 and Hyderabad Feb 21, 2013 - were devastating due to the fail-proof circuitry of the bombs, police sources said. Only the August, 12, 2012 blasts in Pune that were apparently carried out in a hurry to avenge the death in jail of an associate, Qateel Siddiqui, failed.

Related:How Yasin Bhatkal became a terrorist?

"We suspect that the flat was used to experiment with bomb circuitry in order to ensure that blasts do not fail as it has happened in some cases. We believe that Waqas and Monu left the flat in a hurry some time recently otherwise they would not have left all this material behind,'' police sources said.

Bhatkal: Always slippery, even when caught

Asadullah is also said to have claimed that he was receiving money through Western Union money transfer to pay the rent for the Zephyr Heights flat and to meet other expenses in Mangalore.

Monu and Waqas may have been preparing the ground for another attack around the time Yasin and Asadullah were arrested, forcing them to hurriedly flee, the police sources said, adding that the rent for the flat had been paid.

Security sources in Hyderabad confirmed that the Mangalore flat was used as a base to prepare for the February 21 attacks in Dilsukhnagar. NIA investigators were also taken to the rented house in Hyderabad used for the attack by Asadullah, Tahseen and Waqas. investigators are also said to have found a bag used to transport the explosives and material for the IEDs from Mangalore to Hyderabad.

Investigators have collected hair samples at both the Mangalore flat and the Hyderabad house to run DNA matches. The NIA sought permission from a Delhi court Tuesday to collect DNA samples for Asadullah and Yasin.

Investigators, sources said, are trying to figure out why Yasin was not involved in the operations for the blasts allegedly carried out by Asadullah, Monu and Waqas in Hyderabad. Sources said this may be a sign of an attempt by top IM leaders such as Riyaz Bhatkal to reduce dependency on Yasin and to create a second line of operations probably under the leadership of Monu.

Investigators also suspect IM co-founder Riyaz Bhatkal has a hand in the Mangalore operations such as arranging the apartment and explosives as he is known to have influence in the Mangalore region.

In 2008, following the arrest of IM operative Akbar Ismail Chaudhry in connection with the August 2007 Hyderabad blasts, police had raided houses in Mangalore and neighbouring Chikamagalur where Riyaz and Yasin were suspected to be hiding.

The raids failed but the police discovered an IED experimentation and preparation unit at a farm house in the Koppa region of Chikamagalur, suspected to have been an IM base like the Mangalore flat this time.

So who did the Varanasi blast? recall it has a timer watch not recovered after the blast?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 13 Sep 2013 00:29

Going by the UP Muslims' angst against SP, it looks like there was some blowback. But it could just be because they expected a cakewalk against the Jats but the administration "failed" to check the Jat blowback. Its all a question of expectations and what's considered tolerable. UP Muslims and SP should brainstorm on how to finesse this better next time so that all the losses are on one side.

From the Chindu article:

Unless they are given assurances by the Jats of the village — who beat them, who killed their relatives, who confiscated their property — that nothing will happen now, how can they go back?”

I hope the Jats dont give them their land back. Payback for initiating the violence. Let them know what Kashmiri Pandits felt like.

Muslims care about development, law and order, electricity, jobs, education. SP has failed on all these fronts.

followed by

We don’t want Modi

&

they would vote for Congress in 2014, and for Mayawati in the Assembly polls if it were held now.

.

Lahori logic in full flow

member_23365 · Post by **member_23365** » 13 Sep 2013 02:25

Thanks everyone here for support and not believing in media reports otherwise Jats have been painted as villians everytime.
Few things like to share, Gujjars and valmikis have supported Jats fully. I did had the info about a doctor in Shamli distributing arms but i didnt posted it as unable to verify it anywhere. It is reported that there were people from outside (trained snippers, could be bangladeshi) were used.
TOI was reporting 10000 people were arrested, is there a way to find how many people from peacful community were arrested(thru RTI or any other means). Arms were being distrubuted among muslims, but in some villages muslims refused to take the arms.
I think pissfuls stepped on wrong toe as we are told if somebody step on your toe cut that feet. Mandir issue wont mobilise Jats but if you behave badly with Bahu or Beti you will not be spared. In Jat culture a beti is beti of whole village and whole gotra, thats why khaps are agianst marriage in same village and same gotra but we will leave that discussion for some other day.
There are lot of Jaichands in community who wants them to drink the secular gatrode others were trying to consolidate votes even at panchayat level. Common view among everyone is favouring Modi.

komal · Post by **komal** » 13 Sep 2013 02:45

So why was Doggy Singh rudaliing after Batala House police raid?

Because he is also most likely funded by the same ISI

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 13 Sep 2013 08:19

On the ground, Muslims take stock of 'a new situation'

habal · Post by **habal** » 13 Sep 2013 11:07

the key to Muzaffarnagar riots is very hesitantly being released by media.

massive and gross aggression by a secular & peaceful group who behaved like some naxal or LeT terrorists and massacred an unarmed and defenceless group of villagers.

the aggressors were having the time of their lives at the opportunity for this turkey shoot. And they are still absconding or unpunished. It is a shame that UP state govt has not revealed details of this terrorist attack on helpless villagers and is concealing this whole episode under the garb of 'not instigating communal strife'.

dna special: Jolly canal killings triggered the Muzaffarnagar riots
Friday, Sep 13, 2013, 6:34 IST | Place: Muzaffarnagar | Agency: DNA
Pradip R Sagar
With many people still missing, dna finds out where it all began.

Satyender Kumar Baliyan shudders as he recounts how he escaped the massacre at Gang Nahar, popularly known as Jolly canal, last Saturday.

Baliyan, 24, was among a group of 2,000 villagers returning home after attending the Mahapanchayat hosted by several Jat communities of western Uttar Pradesh in nearby Kawal village, when they were ambushed by a mob, armed with assault rifles and other sophisticated weapons.

“Since, I was with the NCC for more than three years during my school days, I could easily tell that our assailants were using AK47 rifles and other weapons,” he told dna at the site of the massacre. The mob set on fire 18 tractor trollies and three motorbikes of the villagers.

Local people say the Jolly canal massacre turned into the communal riots of Muzaffarnagar, in which the official death toll is 45. But local people say the number is much higher.

Eyewitnesses say after the mass killings, the attackers dumped the bodies in the canal, which meets the Ganges river in adjoining Haridwar district. So far, six bodies have been fished out.

“We were unarmed. And they(attackers) ambushed us like Naxals. They started firing indiscriminately,” Baliyan said.

Omkar Singh Rana of Baseda village, cannot find his elder brother Brijpal Singh Rana since the attack on Saturday. “It is not only my elder brother... there are hundreds of people who have gone missing after the massacre. Though six bodies have been found, we are sure there will be many more,” Rana told dna.

The villagers accused the local administration of not acting swiftly.

The police allowed the attackers to flee, some said. “The district administration has not made any effort to track the missing persons or find the bodies. Even the water flow in the canal was not controlled; it was deliberately increased to sweep away the dumped bodies,” said Bhanwar Singh, pradhan of Baseda village.

The district administration has registered 40 missing complaints till Wednesday. But often cases are not registered because officials think people might have migrated to other parts of the state.

District magistrate Kaushal Raj Sharma admitted that the number of missing persons is more than the registered cases. “In case of the Jolly canal, we have recovered six bodies so far. Work is on to trace others, if any,” he said. “But in some cases people have migrated to other places. And since there is no contact with family members, they lodge missing complaints.”{that's a blatant lie, the SP-led kabila guards are trying to fudge the number of casualties}

The Jat community went on the rampage after the killings at Jolly canal. “Blaming Muslims for the Jolly canal attack, Jats set our houses on fire and killed our women and kids.”

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/1888043/r ... agar-riots

looks like some pre-planned false flag terror attack & not some run of the mill act of saving the community's honour ..

http://www.jagran.com/news/national-muz ... 16253.html

मुजफ्फरनगर हिंसा: पुलिस के सामने ही जौली में होता रहा कत्लेआम!

मुजफ्फरनगर [जासं]। नंगला मंदौड़ की महापंचायत से लौटते समय जौली गंगनहर पर खूनखराबा पुलिस व पीएसी की मौजूदगी में हुआ। ईख के खेतों से निकलकर हमलावरों ने ट्रैक्टर- ट्रॉली पर सवार ग्रामीणों पर हमला किया। जौली क्षेत्र से अब तक चार शव, 11 फुंके ट्रैक्टर व दो जली बाइक बरामद हो चुके हैं, जबकि अनेक लोग व कई ट्रैक्टर लापता हैं।

पश्चिमी यूपी में बिखरा गांवों का भाईचारा

गत सात सितंबर को नंगला मंदौड़ में महापंचायत थी। प्रशासन ने रास्तों पर पुलिस बल तैनात कर रखा था। जौली पुल पर भी एक प्लाटून पीएसी तथा डीएसपी, इंस्पेक्टर के साथ भारी पुलिस बल था। महापंचायत के बाद ट्रैक्टर-ट्रालियों में ग्रामीण अपने घरों को लौट रहे थे। जौली गंगनहर पुल के निकट पहुंचते ही खेतों से निकले सैकड़ों हमलावरों ने उन पर फायरिंग शुरू कर दी। अफरातफरी मच गई। ट्रैक्टर ट्राली सवार कुछ लोग भी हमलावरों पर टूट पड़े। दोनों पक्षों में आमने-सामने टकराव से खूनखराबा हो गया। कुछ ग्रामीण ट्रैक्टर छोड़कर भाग खड़े हुए। सैकड़ों लोगों ने पुल पार कर बस्ती के घरों में घुसकर जान बचाई। हमलावरों ने दर्जनों-ट्रैक्टरों को आग के हवाले कर दिया था।

दंगों की आंधी में जलता रहा इंसानी चिराग

जौली क्षेत्र से चार लोगों के शव व 11 फुंके हुए ट्रैक्टर व दो जली हुई बाइक बरामद हो चुकी हैं जबकि अनेक लोग व कई ट्रैक्टर अभी भी लापता हैं। पुलिस व पीएसी की मौजदूगी में इतना सब कुछ होना सवालिया निशान छोड़ रहा है। चर्चा है कि पुलिस ने घटनास्थल से अनेक अत्याधुनिक हथियारों के खोखे भी बरामद किए हैं।

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 13 Sep 2013 12:39

Even the feared 'communal' PAC has been reigned in. Sad days ahead for UP hindus if they don't throw out the jaichands asap.

In another instace of puke inducing secular reporting by MSM, today's TOIlet paper has riot stories on front and second page, all exclusively showcasing muslims as victims. Aak thoo

habal · Post by **habal** » 13 Sep 2013 13:00

Left to Right
Saeed Uz Zaman (Cong), Noor Salim Rana (BSP), Qadir Rana (SP), Rashid Siddiqui (SP)

Qadir Rana (the Member of Parliament) from Shamli (the pious full bearded chap with no mouche) used to sport a very non-bious SDRE look some time ago when he clicked this pic for his .nic MP page.

http://164.100.47.132/lssnew/Members/Bi ... mpsno=4262

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Sep 2013 13:16

From what I've been able to piece together from news reports and twitter handles, something of this sort happened:

1. The Hindu Jat girl used to be teased by a Muslim boy - this was not a one off incident and had been happening for some time.

2. This fellow was roughed-up by her two-brothers and the fellow died because of the injuries sustained. The two brothers were attacked by a Muslim mob and lynched in pure mob-justice fashion.

3. The Police instead of investigating the matter in a fair manner, named the parents of girl (and killed Jat boys) as the accused in the FIR.

4. This led to anger in the Jat community and they refused to cremate the bodies of the two boys.

5. Local SP (or, SSP) stepped in promised to look into the matter and post this, the cremation was done by the community.

6. This police officer was transferred overnight under pressure from SP and other Muslim leaders.

7. This led to call for Mahapanchayat from Jats/other Hindu communities and was called 'Beti Bachao, Bahu Bachao' Mahapanchayat reflecting the main issue at hand.

8. Post Friday prayers, SP and Muslims leaders from other parties asked Muslims to not allow this Mahapanchayat to happen - attendees going and coming from the Mahapanchayat were attacked as per this plan.

9. It seems that Hindu political leaders heeded call of the local administration to annul the Mahapanchayat as quickly as possible and anoint another day to discuss the matter. This was done and another day was supposed to have been chosen in the rally itself.

10. It was said by people on TV that they were attacked while going to attend the meeting - and after people saw blood stained clothes of their fellow attendees, the anger reached a boiling point. Still, there was no attack on Muslims after this gathering - the attack happened on people going back and we now have the DNA report confirming the same.

11. After this initial attack by Muslim, Jats/Others girded their loin and then it was pay back time.

IMO, SP and Muslim leaders from other parties, tried to cash into the simmering issue and instead of calming the situation down, goaded the Ghazis to go on offensive. Consequently, the first attack was a coordinated ambush on hapless people. They relied on tacit support, or browbeating, of the local admin due to Netaji being at the helm in Lucknow.

In all this ch@@tiyapanti, they somehow never factored the back-lash by the Jats. Muslims being in majority in certain areas or being numerically superior during a certain phase does not whitewash the reality that Hindus/Jats are in absolute majority. Further, the epicenter of the conflict was outside the main town - even if there is a Muslim majority village in hinterland, it is surrounded by 'X' times Hindu villages. And these Muslim villages came at the receiving end of the Jat fury.

The fault-line in rural area has been split wide-open and is unlikely to heal anytime soon. IMO, SP is finished in this area with BSP and Congress being the largest gainers. SG and RG have already announced their travel plan and all this will send out a message to minority community - only Congress can save you.

The Jats are going the BJP way - RLD and others are being considered ineffective to counter the partisan politics of SP and safeguard the Jat interests in the region.

habal · Post by **habal** » 13 Sep 2013 13:26

the attack at Jolly Canal is very suspiscious. PAC bullets taken away by the SP, thus effectively disarmed, and dozens of characters emerging out of fields with AK-47s, seems nothing less than a terror strike aided and abetted by the district administration hand in glove with the SP. This had sown the seeds of retaliation, as planned by some party.

Muslims had never planned for the backlash, but whoever planned the Jolly Canal strike at the helpless villagers had definitely factored in a backlash aiding their agenda. So muslims felt that Mulayam (need some code cuss words to replace this name) did a deal on the sly with some anti-national elements and sold the local muslims down the abattoir. So much for their trust.

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Sep 2013 13:58

^^ Has all the makings of a Marad Beach type action ( happened in secular Kerala Link), only this time in UP.

Wont be surprised if ISI supplied weapons show up if a impartial probe is *ever* held like was the case in Marad or in Bhatkal when the BJP MLA, Dr Chittaranjan was assasinated( the report hasnt been released till now) or even Godhra

As the caliphate looms larger and numbers are gained, expect more such actions all over India

If it wasnt for BRF, going by MSM reports, i would have assumed it was poor "minorities" who received 100% of the lashing from day 1 for no fault for theirs

RomeshT · Post by **RomeshT** » 13 Sep 2013 15:43

UP has long become a base for Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT). That is among the reasons AK-47s have been used to shoot unarmed Hindu villagers.

An Indian intelligence official admitted in 2006 to the Indian Internet newsmagazine News Insight : “[W]hat has exceptionally moved the government is that UP is becoming a big Lashkar (LeT) base."

Also this: UP has about 20,000 madrasas. Think of how many foot soldiers for jihad are increasingly going to be produced!

The writing has been on the wall for some time. Instead of the talk of trying to mobilise and educate Hindus, ~~immediate~~ initiatives need to go into neutralizing the command-and-control of the violent elements among RoPers.

Lashkar-e-Taiba is able to make inroads in UP and elsewhere because of the support it receives from clerics.

This naturally means going after clerics. There should be little doubt that the clerics are responsible for socioeconomic stagnation of Muslims as well as pushing them into a jihad directed at the state and the majority community.

If clerics are taken out (all over India) faster than they could be replaced (by the likes of Deoband), it is difficult for them to push forward with planned violence. Moreover, such an action will force the issue to the top of the national agenda.

We have to a wage a smart war to win this, in order to avoid impending annihilation, as it is happening to Hindus in every region of South Asia where RoPers are majority.

Time is not on our side.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Sep 2013 17:18

I have long insisted that the ultimate target is to eliminate the mullahcracy/theologian and the insfrastructure of education and preaching that they use to preserve their jihadi expansionist motives.

However, the suggestions in previous posts should take into account the following:

(1) elimination of theologians and theocracy cannot be effectively done unless under conditions of civil war, if the state in official power is not clearly in favour of it. This comes out of several contexts - the fact that a modern state can call upon a centralized, industrially supported, national coercive force in the form of the army, as well as current state of international and national politics that involve complicated interdependences between large mercantile/international trade/media/organized external centred imperialist religions.

(2) you can carry out such neutralization or neuterization - [but do not call for physical elimination as your primary objective - let it be reluctant acceptance of consequent or collateral damage as your formal stance], most effectively when you have state power. Because it takes out lots of potential attacks based on international legalistic shenanigans, and you can manage more effectively various handles that a modern state has over the most active and vociferous forces of opinion as well as initiatives within the country.

(3) if you go for targeted eliminations of clergy without having a regular army at the least - and effective military superiority in the zone you are targeting for sanitization, both the clergy-favouring national regimes as well as the full military resources of the state will be brought on backed by full international supporters of islamism - to eliminate the nucleus of a future resistance. They will pretend that this threat is about "non-democratic" attack against the state - but in reality they will pre-empt the potential for a future ris eof a force that destroys their continued dynastic hold over Bharat in possible collaboration/convergence of interests with foreign organized imperialist religions.

(4) I know I have been accused of doing a gandhigiri by some here in advocating a more political foundational approach evenw hile suffering atrocities. Just to clarify and also to illustrate the subtle differences between the two approaches : for MKG, the political was also a foundation for future violence once the initial nurturing was over [yes he betrayed this acceptance of inevitability of violence as state tool on several occasions but of course never in the context of Hindu retaliation/retribution/self-defense against Muslims].

But MKG was also carefully looking to eliminate those elements within the Hindu that would provide resistance against Muslim or Christian aggression - by overlaying Hindu ethos with a framework for non-retaliation or non-retribution. This was - for whatever his ulterior objective or clouded vision - effectively to provide continued space in Bharat as a nation for the Islamist or Christianist - which in turn implied an effective space for intervention by foreign hostile imperialistic religious cores. At the same time it would secure state power for the model of authority he seems to have been most comfortable with - not unbridled democracy and will of the "masses" - but a trusteeship maintained under a small group "who knew best", and perhaps driven by a particular strand of traditional varna-based thinking where the "Brahmin" should "guide" paternally the "lower" orders, and this model perfectly fitted into the eventual outcome of a "Kashmirir-Brahmin" dynasty ruling "India".

Hence for him emasculating "Hindu" militancy and channelizing it into a self-restricting bind that would allow the future state to emasculate the majority for effective personal power - where the apparatus of state power was dependent on the apparatus of personal power - would be an important objective while building up the national movement.

For me, the objective is the exact opposite. But at the initial stages the overt tactical approach may seem to coincide because I do not want the future trajectory of an effective majority framework that can and will obtain coercive power over foreign imperialist interests - to be jeopardized and eliminated at one go by the current concentration of forces at state hands.

Territorial counter consolidation, taking over of the supply channels of arms and supporting resources from the "east" [and some coming through the southern corridor through the Maha route that connects the western coasts], takeover of the financial networks and elimination of the drugs/smuggler networks to dry off the clergy's resource base, and take-over of land - are the first basic steps.

Effective use of political parties and groups on a common minimal programme of confining the mullah to his present haunts.

The mullahs have an effective network in the Terai. This is still remote area - and they obviously have chosen it to stay close to the networks of supply that operate from within Nepal. This is the area that should be populated by "our" people. If it provides opportunities to mullahs/reds/EJ's it should offer the same to us. Even if "our" presence forces the national gov and intel [who are very very aware of what is going on and yet allow thes ethinsg to go on] to come in and force everyone out to prevent the "Hindu" from becoming as powerful as the favoured Muslim/EJ/Red ninja non-state actors who also miraculously usually happen to go against problematic entities for certain parties - that does take out one effective nurturing area for clergy.

These things have to be built up in stages. Ahista ahista as they say in khaas jabaan.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 13 Sep 2013 21:58

Manipur: Eight non-Manipuris killed in bomb blast

Eight persons — all non-Manipuris — were killed and seven others seriously injured when a powerful bomb exploded at Nagamapal area in Imphal West district of Manipur on Friday evening, police sources said.

The bomb was hurled at the camp of a non-Manipuri labourers by suspected militants, the sources said.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 13 Sep 2013 21:59

B-ji: if MKG's goal was the formation of a trustee-ship under the Varna model, how does it make sense to do it with elements of Abrahamic religions in the power apparatus? The 2 paradigms dont mix.

RomeshT · Post by **RomeshT** » 13 Sep 2013 22:55

Brihaspatiji, you are making very valid and insightful comments. I want to elaborate a bit on my earlier post.

Whichever way one looks at it, a well-documented justification has to be made for a fight back, which may involve regime in power and/or groups associated with the beleaguered Hindu majority.

This has to be framed in the context of human rights and religious freedom. This is very important because such a context will provide the necessary leverage (by providing the ability to withstand internal/external pressures and build a broad-based support) in taking the fight to the end.

The reality of British India’s partition in 1947 in the name of religions and the subsequent cleric-led religious ethnic cleansing in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir valley suggests that Hindus, Sikhs, Christians and others have the right to live freely in the only land they can, India. This is an uncompromising existential human right.

While clerics' command-and-control of radicalism makes the threat potent, but it may also be a sign of its fatal weakness, because this power structure is largely public, unprotected, well-localized and primitive. We have to exploit this weakness to finish the threat permanently and ensure emancipation of their flock.

The following brief note outlines the rationale, by referring to two scholarships.

Clerics are the Main Cause of Violent Radicalism and Socioeconomic Stagnation:

First, Indian clerics significantly influence the political outlook of their flock (see this article: http://sekhon.berkeley.edu/papers/Chhib ... tities.pdf).

How have clerics exercised this influence?

It has become clear that clerics in India have exercised their influence and power to the detriment of both Muslims and non-Muslims. Prior incitement in mosques is almost always a precursor before rioting, for which clerics are responsible. Admittedly, in the aftermath, the clerics associated with the mosques do often nominally call for peace (which gets prominent coverage in Indian media). But this is like a person who keeps saying “sorry” every time after a killing, while continuing the killings.

Clerics have chosen to deflect Pakistan’s role in fomenting and sponsoring terrorism in India. For example, a 2008 anti-terrorism conference attended by thousands of Sunni clerics in Deoband took a dim view of America’s and Israel’s role in conflicts involving Muslims, but it failed to even mention Pakistan’s sponsorship of militant groups that have killed scores of fellow Indian citizens.

Second, the economic and educational backwardness of India’s biggest minority appears to be mostly caused by clerics’ repressive influence (see this article: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=2212357).

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Sep 2013 23:56

Prem Kumar wrote:B-ji: if MKG's goal was the formation of a trustee-ship under the Varna model, how does it make sense to do it with elements of Abrahamic religions in the power apparatus? The 2 paradigms dont mix.

On the contrary - presence of an Abrahamic proselytizing variety would be crucial for trusteeship. This must be a minority and not seemingly capable of taking over state power entirely on its own. However such a constantly trying-to-expand predatory ideology can be used to manipulate the majority - either by raising the fear of a radical onslaught on the majority, or threatening siding with the minority. Unless there is a balance of forces between majority under threat from a minority which compensates for its minority perception with excessive aggression and violence or expansionist memes - the individual, dictator, authoritarian, clan/family cannot be unquestionably powerful. Power in this case comes from projection of "an unbiased" supposed "middle" position and becoming the sole arbitrator.

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 14 Sep 2013 02:12

brihaspati wrote: These things have to be built up in stages. Ahista ahista as they say in khaas jabaan.

I agree with your entire previous post with the exception of the last statement.

I dont have to tell you, that there is a difference between "ahista ahista" and "never never". What is currently happening is "never never" and what is currently happening is elimination of the Hindu, "fast fast".

The fatalistic idea, that somehow, only when things get "really really" bad, will there be a turnaround, is flawed and does not work in India. The Hindu has demonstrated unlimited ability to absorb punishment and oppression. There is no floor of absorbstion of injustice for a Hindu. Therefore, to wait for things to get "really" bad for things to turn around is again wishful thinking, a fantasy. Only in India, there will be no Satyug following Kalyug. Hindus will forever be stuck in Kalyug, until they disappear.

Unless, a no holes barred campaign using any means to defend ourselves and to reverse the trend, or at least to stop the bleeding is launched now, today, maybe even yesterday. Tomorrow will be too late.

"Ahista Ahista" will only lead to death, "fast fast". Our culture has had more than 5000 years to prepare the "groundwork" "ahista ahista". If we dont have it prepared by now, just like time waits for no man, it waits for no civilization either. Ask the Hindus of Indonesia, the civilizations of Sindh and Punjab and even the exalted and mighty Persian Civilization, the powerful Babylonians, the Mesopotamians, the magnificent ancient Egyptians........all gone..........puff......