Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 16 Sep 2013 18:03

Ghanta "co-development" they should first be willing to transfer critical Javelin technologies without any attached baggage and STFU regarding "altering balance of power". Given the two face ******** Americans are we must not get fooled by any such sugar coated talks.

Who is this Ashton Carter ??? What is his history regarding stance over India ???

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 16 Sep 2013 18:06

Exactly my thoughts .. DTI is Defence Trade Initiative for the US. I would rather buy the missile off the shelf if it meets our immediate needs and initiate our own program. While a man-portable Nag will need a lot of work we have ample experience with ant-tank to make it work.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 16 Sep 2013 18:12

pankajs wrote:cross-post

US offers to co-develop advanced Javelin missile with India

We have seen this before. USA offers co-development ONLY when India is about to become successful in a given technology.

That means Nag passed the initial hurdles and is getting to be a new Nagastra.

We should use USA's co-development offers only for that purpose, to validate our success stories.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 16 Sep 2013 18:47

Better to have joint collaborative effort for production set up with Russian tech for production engineering. If there are undertones of offering the same otherwise to.. etc etc could also be read for serious considerations part. Offering products in future and so on and so forth when that much time could be utilized to fine tune for our own products is kind of an American offer only.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 16 Sep 2013 22:23

RamaY wrote:
We have seen this before. USA offers co-development ONLY when India is about to become successful in a given technology.

That means Nag passed the initial hurdles and is getting to be a new Nagastra.

Different categories. Nag/Namica is destined for armoured/mechanized forces while the Javelin/Spike/MILAN etc will be acquired for the infantry.

The closest analogues to the Nag would probably be the TOW-F/HOT-3/AT-9/AT-15 and so on.

This nonsensical 'joint development' plan aside, fact is, if the IA requires a man-portable fire-and-forget missile (whether it does and in what quantities is a different debate), the Spike and Javelin are the only two viable options. And of them the Javelin is probably a good bit cheaper given the production volumes involved.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 16 Sep 2013 22:28

India can produce 10,000 km range ballistic missiles: DRD).

Inter-continental ballistic missile Agni-5, which can cover entire China and reach Europe with its range of 5,000 km, will be ready for induction in the armed forces in two years, amid assertion by DRDO that it can produce a weapon system with a range of 10,000 km.

Addressing a press conference on a seminar to be held tomorrow, DRDO Chief Avinash Chander said all the ballistic missiles in country's arsenal would be canistered to reduce the reaction time, in case of a nuclear attack.He said by the end of this year or the beginning of the next year, the country's first indigenously-developed nuclear submarine INS Arihant would be carrying out weapon trials as part of its tests towards its induction in the Navy.

"Yes... actually range is least problematic part of the missile. We have full capability to go to any range. If we need a particular range, we can achieve that in two or two-and-a-half years. The issue today is more with the accuracy of the missiles," Chander said.The DRDO chief was asked if the premier research organisation would be able to provide 10,000 km range missiles if government gives a go ahead to it.

Commenting on the Agni-5 missile, which was successfully testfired yesterday for the second time, he said, "The missile would be ready for induction in armed forces in the next couple of years after three to four more successful test-firings from canisters." He said the Agni-5 along with all other ballistic missiles would be canistered which will help in reducing the response time in case of a nuclear attack.
"It (the response time) will be in order of few minutes from stop to launch and it will be very short. I cannot give you the exact time," Chander said.

India has a 'no-first use' policy for nuclear weapons which means that it needs to have a strong and quick response capability to reply in case of a strike by an adversary.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Sep 2013 23:17

Viv S wrote:
RamaY wrote:
We have seen this before. USA offers co-development ONLY when India is about to become successful in a given technology.

That means Nag passed the initial hurdles and is getting to be a new Nagastra.
Different categories. Nag/Namica is destined for armoured/mechanized forces while the Javelin/Spike/MILAN etc will be acquired for the infantry.

The closest analogues to the Nag would probably be the TOW-F/HOT-3/AT-9/AT-15 and so on.

This nonsensical 'joint development' plan aside, fact is, if the IA requires a man-portable fire-and-forget missile (whether it does and in what quantities is a different debate), the Spike and Javelin are the only two viable options. And of them the Javelin is probably a good bit cheaper given the production volumes involved.

Well, be ready for more major nonsensical stuff in the works. Both in development and procurement. Make sure you are buckled up.

Not sure if it was observed that this JD is a "a next-generation version of the Javelin anti-tank missile." Apologies if it was.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 17 Sep 2013 00:25

SURYA

way to go

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 17 Sep 2013 00:52

NRao wrote: Well, be ready for more major nonsensical stuff in the works. Both in development and procurement. Make sure you are buckled up.

Not sure if it was observed that this JD is a "a next-generation version of the Javelin anti-tank missile." Apologies if it was.

As much as I'd like that to be true, we're unfortunately not at a stage where we can make a meaningful contribution to a project that will presumably employ seeker, propulsion and/or guidance technologies that are a generation ahead of the already cutting-edge Javelin. And the program itself is unlikely to be large enough, such that's there's adequate low-end work to be allocated to a partner.

Chances are we'll end up merely paying to buy in and end up manufacturing non-core components. That may in fact have been a decent investment assuming the US military was onboard (eg. the UK's gotten a great return in terms of work-share on its investment as a Tier I JSF partner), but given that general scarcity of capital in India right now, ToT from the current Javelin may offer more viable returns.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Sep 2013 02:32

I wouldnt mind if Javelin production was undertaken at (say) Tata and was exported to all Khan's munnas. Allows us to build up more industrial capability in India, even if the FPA seeker tech is not transferred.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Sep 2013 02:58

Viv S wrote:
As much as I'd like that to be true, ..................................

.

No quarrel with that logic. Very understandable.

However, let us see how the highly orchestrated meeting between MMS and Obama goes (which will depend on Carter's visit and this offer of co-development).

But, that is for a mere ATM. I am talking of much larger fisheS to fry. However, will need to wait for a few dominoes to fall. IF (Huge if granted) they do fall, then bring out a new lungi dance emoticon.

OAO.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Sep 2013 03:01

Was this posted:

http://www.spsaviation.net/exclusive/?i ... s-revealed

Astra missile to be fired, two variants revealed
By SP's Special Correspondent
Photo Credit : SP's Special Correspondent

Astra MissileJuly 06, 2013: With successful captive trials completed in April, and a fully reconfigured missile now ready for the next phase of development testing, India's indigenous beyond visual range air-to-air missile Astra is set for its debut firing from an aircraft by the end of this year. As first reported in SP's Aviation in March this year, 2013 has been christened 'Astra Year' by DRDO in light of expectations that the Astra beyond visual range air-to-air missile will finally see a flight test firing from an IAF aircraft.

Now, it is confirmed that it will happen. It has also now learnt that while the base version Astra Mk.1 will have an intercept range of 44 km, it will be the Astra Mk.2 that will be a true force multiplier weapon, with an intercept range in excess of 100 km. That, at any rate, is the intended configuration. The Astra will be deployed from underwing hardpoints on the Su-30MKI, not wingtip pylons as earlier intended. The Astra is an all-weather all aspect beyond visual range and close combat missile that will be deployed on the IAF's LCA Tejas, Su-30MKI, Mirage-2000 and possible, the Rafale MMRCA in the future too. The missile sports active radar terminal guidance (dual mode guidance), smokeless propulsion, improve electronic counter-countermeasures and what the DRDO calls improved effectiveness in a multi-target scenario.

To understand what the 44 km range is - its not the maximum but one from the middle of the max and min operational altitudes.

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/India ... s_999.html

The DRDO said Astra will be able to be launched from different altitudes but those alterations would affect the range. It will cover nearly 70 miles when launched from an altitude of just more than 9 miles but only 27 miles when fired from an altitude of 5 miles (9K feet).

At sea level the range is expected to be 13 miles.

Active homing range will be nearly 16 miles.

A longer range version, the Astra Mark 2, will have a 93-mile head on range with a tail chase range of 21 miles. The DRDO also is said to be looking at rocket/ramjet propulsion similar to that used in its Akash surface-to-air missile project.

27 miles, 44 km is the range obtained at 5 miles altitude or 8 km alt.

At 9 miles, say around 15-16 km altitude, the range obtained is 70 miles, or 112 km.

The seeker range is 26 km!!

Look at the R77 range at 20 odd km. Around the same as mentioned for Astra MK1.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/S ... R-77-2.jpg

No wonder the IAF is waiting eagerly for the Astra, it will match the R77 in service, in terms of range but will be better in other areas.
A) More flexible (both CCM and BVR) b ) Local ECCM and complete control over software c) Buddy targeting d) with enhanced seeker range, can be used LOBL at significant ranges

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TigLajcRPNE/U ... 281%29.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AQJuf3d.jpg

The MK2 being spoken of, will be a game changing missile for the IAF more in the class of a Meteor. At any rate, they can get that done leveraging tech from MRSAM etc (dual propulsion, booster) once the MRSAM gets done and Astra MK1 is finished.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Sep 2013 03:39

I need a whack across my knuckles, I did not read that article completely. Which says:

The US Department of Defence (Pentagon) has written to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) proposing that the two countries collaborate in jointly developing a next-generation version of the Javelin anti-tank missile.

That is the current proposal. Co-development.

Last year, Carter had proposed that US companies could join hands with Indian partners in setting up manufacturing facilities for five major systems in India. These include the MH-60 Romeo multi-role helicopter, built by Sikorsky and Lockheed Martin; a delivery system for scatterable mines; and the M-45 127 millimetre rapid-fire naval gun. Later, the US proposed co-producing the Javelin missile, which is built by Raytheon and Lockheed Martin;

That WAS the proposal THEN. Co-production.

The cautious clunker:

A senior DRDO source also confirmed the US offer, but played it cool. He said, “The DRDO welcomes co-development of advanced weapon systems, provided there is real technological collaboration involved. India needs to fill its technology gaps and co-development should ensure that both partners build upon their mutual strengths.”

But, I would focus on the framework - in the following passage replace the Javelin with XXX and move on:

Carter’s proposal is part of a 15-month-old American push to intensify its defence relationship with India. Earlier, in response to New Delhi’s interest in the Javelin, the US State Department had observed that fulfilling India’s requirement would “alter the regional military balance.” Worse, Washington refused to transfer key technologies that New Delhi insisted upon as a part of the deal.

That approach changed dramatically since June 2012, when then US Defence Secretary Leon Panetta, nominated Ashton Carter, to break down the bureaucratic barriers in Washington that impeded the US-India defence relationship --- which Washington had determined was pivotal to America’s future in Asia. A formal mechanism called the DTI --- tellingly, the US called it the Defence Trade Initiative, while India referred to it as Defence Technology Initiative --- was set up. Carter co-chairs it along with National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon,

A close watcher of the Pentagon says Carter has pushed the US bureaucracy hard to change their approach to India. Earlier, US officials regarded India as just another non-NATO country --- one with which America did not even have a formal alliance, and which was unwilling to sign cooperative agreements with the US.

“Before Carter got to work, releasing technology to India required a comprehensive justification to be made out. By April 2013, Pentagon officials needed to justify why a particular technology could not be released to India,” says the Pentagon watcher.

The Javelin is now a focus area for Carter. .........................................

There is more to come.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Sep 2013 06:19

This is over an year old article, but it provides some rather interesting insight into Indo-American relations. Point being they are changing and the old ways really have no place. Although there is some ways to go, there are brand new dynamics in these equations.

April 16, 2012 :: Javelin missile, R&D coop to feature in US-India talks

As New Delhi looks to translate its relationship with the US into badly needed high technology, the government is readying for meetings tomorrow with America’s key gatekeeper of military technology, the visiting assistant secretary of state for political military affairs, Andrew Shapiro.

High on New Delhi’s technology agenda is Washington’s reluctance to transfer military knowhow, of the kind needed for building the FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank missile in India. The Army wants the Javelin for its ground forces, to enable two-man infantry teams to fire $40,000 missiles at $10 million enemy tanks 2,500 metres away and destroy them 95 per cent of the time. The Javelin sale, potentially a billion-dollar (Rs 5,000 crore) contract for US companies, Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, has been blocked by Shapiro’s office, the department of political military affairs. The technology, it has been deemed, is too sensitive to transfer.

Shapiro’s 10-person team will be discussing this issue with India’s defence and foreign ministries (MoD and MEA), which regard overly-strict US licensing and export controls as key obstacles in “operationalising”, or obtaining tangible benefits from the growing strategic convergence between the US and India.

In clearing any transfer of high technology like the Javelin, Shapiro’s primary consideration is strategic: would technologically enabling India enhance long-term US strategic interests, without threatening America’s lead in military technology. Growing pressure from American senators and representatives complicates Shapiro’s decision-making. Fearing the declining US defence budget will cause job losses in their constituencies, American legislators are willing to back technology transfer to India, if that is what it takes to get orders from the world’s biggest buyer of foreign weaponry.

A likely example of this is the Global Hawk Block 30, a high-altitude, long-endurance (HALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), which flies 36-hour unmanned missions to watch over vast expanses of territory or water. After the latest US defence budget cuts, the US Air Force has cancelled orders for Global Hawks, 13 of which have already been built or are close to completion by Northrop Grumman. The politically influential company, aided by US Congressmen in whose constituencies the UAV is built, are pressuring the US government to find alternative buyers. There are 13 Block 30 Global Hawks almost ready, which will now be mothballed.

Savvy bargaining by India could get it the Block 30 Global Hawk and perhaps even the technologies that go into it, believes Manohar Thyagaraj, an expert on US-India military relations.

“If India were to express interest, US Congressmen would mount pressure on Shapiro to share the technology. But India tends to engage only the US administration; it has put very little effort into building relationships on Capitol Hill. When Congress gets onto something, it acquires real momentum. New Delhi has not yet understood that engaging Congress is as important as engaging the administration,” says Thyagaraj.

India’s key technology player, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), has figured out the opportunity that lies in declining Western defence budgets. DRDO chief V K Saraswat declared during the Defexpo India 2012 defence exhibition on March 31, “Global economic recession is leading to capacities and capabilities in the international market that we can exploit. So, it will be an era of US and European agencies coming and trying to work with us and we will exploit this.”

Shapiro’s department of political military relations must okay all such joint ventures. US defence giant Raytheon is learnt to be keen on working with DRDO for developing technologies that can detect improvised explosive devices (IEDs), the roadside bombs that took a heavy toll of US lives in Iraq and Afghanistan, and that are now being used to deadly effect by Maoist insurgents in India. With US government funding, Raytheon has already developed a technology called SAVI (Seismic Accoustic Vibration Imaging), which uses acoustic reflections to detect buried IEDs. But budgetary cuts have dried up Raytheon’s funding, and it is looking towards India for partnership in developing SAVI into a deployable military system.

“The DRDO’s funding and scientific base is ideal for reviving such a project; and both sides would profit from selling the SAVI system to the Indian military and abroad. If India comes to the table with money, it would be well placed to negotiate access,” says a top DRDO official.

The dialogue on Monday will be followed by a succession of others. The US-India-Japan trilateral is scheduled for April 22 in Tokyo, followed by the US-India Strategic Dialogue in Washington in May and the US-India Homeland Security dialogue in June.

partha · Post by **partha** » 17 Sep 2013 08:13

Austin wrote:Why would US switch off GPS in our region if Obama is swearing in US which is like thousands of km away ........more ever US cannot switch off GPS as Civilian Aircraft use it.

More likely the switch off was deliberate or could be some guidance issue with Brahmos or its GPS receiver.

Saar, ultimately GPS satellites are servers and GPS receivers, client. It should be possible to deny services to a particular client or filter out clients in a patch of geographical area (easier than targeting a single client) for example Thar desert area where Brahmos test was conducted. I was reading about MIRV and found a reference to the GPS incident from Shri Bharat Karnad -

http://bharatkarnad.com/2013/06/28/more ... -warheads/

Brahmos, on the other hand, can pull an S-maneuver at very low altitudes. This was proved in the 2nd Brahmos test in the desert, destroying a target 20 kms away with pinpoint accuracy after relying on the Russian Glonass GPS. (The first Brahmos test failed, it may be recalled, because the US GPS it was using to cue to target “blinked” at a crucial moment in time in its flight path.)

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 17 Sep 2013 09:03

“The DRDO’s funding and scientific base is ideal for reviving such a project; and both sides would profit from selling the SAVI system to the Indian military and abroad. If India comes to the table with money, it would be well placed to negotiate access,” says a top DRDO official.

DRDO's budget itself has faced massive cuts. Don't get how or why they plan to find America's R&D.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Sep 2013 10:35

If the NG Javelin project gets the go ahead. Then most likely it will be on the same pattern as the SAM project with the Isrealies for IN. It will also be budgeted separately.

Wet Dream alert, I would also like India to be a part of the project that is designing the JCM. As a 50-50 partner. With India having full IP rights.

kit · Post by **kit** » 17 Sep 2013 15:25

The likely thing that will happen

DRDOs cream of missile engineers will soon start working for US companies. As soon as the american companies collaborate with any entity outside the US this has happened and shall happen in India as well. Forget about collaboration when the going is good , remember you never had it when you needed it the most ! DRDO will be well advised to stay put and collaborate with any other company/corporation outside the US !

And having said that the US will be the last country seeking to build up India's defense manufacturing base , china or no china ! India is always considered as outlier country , not a friend nor an enemy but one to be engaged when it suits them .

Witness offers to collaborate on ABM ..when india already proved its capability
Javelin when a superior Nag is in the offing.

India will always get 'collaboration' to manufacture non critical components since it might cost less to build here.. but anyone who thinks that khan would assist in developing a industrial base , would well be dreaming ! * IT JUST WILL NOT HAPPEN* Period .

Help yourself DRDO , get your house in order , soon you will achieve the critical mass of talent and infrastructure to give khans companies a run for their money, just dont get seduced ! You are already good in a few niche areas that is indeed causing consternation and some amount of heartburn in a few unlikely quarters.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Sep 2013 15:49

Right now there is no F&F Man Portable ATGM under development , So collaborating with Khan or Yehudi on Javelin or Spike as JV is not bad idea at the very least even if its not involving TOT and just Lic Manuf if ordered in large numbers its better to build it in India say by BDL to reduce cost like we do for other products like Milan or Konkurs or Invar.

williams · Post by **williams** » 17 Sep 2013 15:53

Kit, we cannot be scared to collaborate for the reason of loosing manpower. DRDO should provide right incentives to our engineers to stay with DRDO. IMO DRDO alone cannot bring the technology needed for the needs of our defense forces. I think we need to recognize the PSUs who do the manufacturing for our Armed forces are very poor in getting feed back and understanding the users needs. Products that DRDO produces out of research does not evolve over time. They will have to sincerely work on Indian private sector participation. Private sector is very good in understanding the users needs and evolving the product design over time. INSAS is the best example of this. At the time it was produced Army was happy with the rifle, but it never evolved over time and today there is justification to buy from outside.

member_27721 · Post by **member_27721** » 17 Sep 2013 16:14

Hi All can nayone tell why does army require QR-SAM why can't it do with Akash

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Sep 2013 16:27

Akash is technically a medium range SAM does not fit into QR SAM criteria , it would probably replace the SA-6 in IA while QR SAM would replace the SA-13/8 with the army.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 17 Sep 2013 16:57

Karan M wrote:The seeker range is 26 km!!

Look at the R77 range at 20 odd km. Around the same as mentioned for Astra MK1.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/S ... R-77-2.jpg

Karan M,

can you detail the seeker in the ASTRA?? IIRC the RF seeker was russian (AGAT i guess). is any IIR seeker being planned for it?? DRDO has been successful in IIR seeker tech wrt NAG. any modified one for ASTRA?

that aside this report of march 2013 is interesting. not sure if this has been posted.

The missile scientist said the first ceramic radome which can withstand high speeds and temperatures up to 800 deg c has been developed for the Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Astra missile.

Besides, Astra, the indigenously-developed radomes would mainly cater to interceptor missiles. They would also be used in BrahMos, MRSAMs (Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missiles) and Anti-Radiation Missiles (ARMs).

RCI also started work on developing ‘reaction-bonded silicon nitride’ radome which can withstand temperatures of above 1,000 deg c.

Indigenous component for missiles developed

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 17 Sep 2013 17:45

Austin wrote:collaborating with Khan or Yehudi on Javelin or Spike as JV is not bad idea at the very least even if its not involving TOT

Money does not grow on trees

Don't take it personally, im disappointed also because it is just true only. Funding is the primary reason why everything takes very long time to get done in india.

Our defence needs are so massive that we cannot afford to go shopping forever. It has to be developed here. The threats have always been there and it will continue to be there.

williams wrote:Kit, we cannot be scared to collaborate for the reason of loosing manpower.

Williams, the problem is not co-development.

We have asked for something and obviously we are not asking it for free. The US says, "NO, we won't give what you asked. Instead come and we will co-develop a javelin together".

What the hell kind of reply was that?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Sep 2013 17:54

What the hell kind of reply was that?

It is one thing to hold an opinion, but to misread or misinterpret is totally different. It will help you to go back and read up (just a few posts up).

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 17 Sep 2013 18:10

NRao,

the US has objected to ToT transfer which could enable india to manufacture the missile system entirely in india. Instead, it says "co-manufacture" meaning some sensitive components will be manufactured in US and imported to india for final assembly.

ToT is already clearly refused and yet the americans want "co-development" on the development of an upgraded javelin. Seriously, what the hell is that?

What is your interpretation?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Sep 2013 19:07

First padho, then padhiyi karo.

There is nothing to "interpret" - IF one follows the bread crumbs (granted not everyone has the interest nor the time to do so, which is OK) it is all there. One has to keep up with the nearly latest.

A few posts above is a year old status:

In clearing any transfer of high technology like the Javelin, Shapiro’s primary consideration is strategic: would technologically enabling India enhance long-term US strategic interests, without threatening America’s lead in military technology.

So, those are the two issues to overcome (again, as of a year ago - things have since changed - for the +ve, for the time being).

There are multiple dimensions to this problem, BUT, even a year or so prior to that the US was FAR more restrictive. Today, even without those acronym-ed agreements, we are this stage - something we could never have considered 3-4 years ago.

So, what exactly is your concern is my question (that you have one or more is just fine, I have a few too).

Growing pressure from American senators and representatives complicates Shapiro’s decision-making. Fearing the declining US defence budget will cause job losses in their constituencies, American legislators are willing to back technology transfer to India, if that is what it takes to get orders from the world’s biggest buyer of foreign weaponry.

Then, here comes the kicker. I have no good idea how far that statement is true, but from what very little I have been exposed to (few data points) it seems very, very true.

We keep talking about how the US in unwilling to share even with close friends like the UK. Well, that statement I am finding out is not entirely true (F-35 being an example) (to some extent it is true), but, I am finding out that India is in a league of its own. Not UK for sure, but not India of yester years either.

There is progress being made for sure. Can it all roll back - I think it can. But when will it, if it does? I would venture to guess some time in the 2040-50s (a few years ago I started with the mid 30s).

The problem India faces is not from the White House nor the Pentagon, it is from the SD. Which is coming around, very, very slowly. And, that is OK, it is going to take some time.

Also, IMVVVVVHO, India not longer is an immature technical country. India just does NOT have the breadth that the US (or even the Russians/French/Europe) has. BUT, what India has, it is fairly to damn good at it. What India has is meant for India (so please avoid the natural impulse to compare). However, the US has a few things that India NEEDS and just cannot get it anywhere else.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 17 Sep 2013 19:11

NRao garu with all due respect it's you who needs to read the article once again since it seems that you have overlooked the cunningness of joo ess yeayy regarding this farcical proposal. Let me point out to you some important points from the article

The US Department of Defence (Pentagon) has written to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) proposing that the two countries collaborate in jointly developing a next-generation version of the Javelin anti-tank missile.

and

“But if the MoD agrees to Washington’s co-development proposal, the Javelin would become the clear front-runner for the $1-1.5 billion Indian contract. That is now a realistic prospect,” says a well informed member of the US defence industry.

So basically they want to sell us a lame "co-development" proposal and that too of some paper NG Javelin and based on this verbal stunt they want the order for the recent requirement but nowhere they have said that even if we accept this offer they will share the critical technology of Javelin and then also work with us on the next gen missile of the same. So all we have is a verbal volley from joo ess yeayy about a paper project based on which they want the current order for the man portable ATGM.

Please explain to me why shall I in the first place trust Americans who have a history of doing everything anti India possible to be done ??? Why shall I buy this verbal assurance of them wanting to share tech with us ??? If America really wants to share tech with us then they should not have any problem with sharing critical tech with us no ??? Why is this hollow promise of some paper NG missile but nothing about sharing critical tech of the present missile ??? I am not saying you to trust me but let's see what DRDO has to say based on that article

A senior DRDO source also confirmed the US offer, but played it cool. He said, “The DRDO welcomes co-development of advanced weapon systems, provided there is real technological collaboration involved. India needs to fill its technology gaps and co-development should ensure that both partners build upon their mutual strengths.”

That's where the real story lies "real technological collaboration" which will fill our tech gaps. If America is so eager to share tech with us then it should do it with the present system and not try and sell some paper NG missile.

Answer me this, what is the guarantee that America won't walk over their proposed "co development" and refuse to share tech with us ??? They can leave very well midway citing "technological balance alter" crap that they so profusely peddle. What is the guarantee that america won't back stab us as it did during LCA ???

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 17 Sep 2013 19:19

Karan M wrote:I wouldnt mind if Javelin production was undertaken at (say) Tata and was exported to all Khan's munnas. Allows us to build up more industrial capability in India, even if the FPA seeker tech is not transferred.

Saar that's shooting ourselves in the foot onlee. We must insist on getting critical tech from them, only and only when they are ready to share critical tech we shall lend any ear to the Americans. These verbal cowboygiri is just that only. We have already created enough industrial capability on our own regarding missile production and we can go ahead with creating more on our own as well, I strongly disagree that we need to play second fiddle to Americans in order to build up our industrial capability. If you have forgotten then let me remind you saar that the only thing Americans have done consistently to us is backstabbing.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 17 Sep 2013 19:24

kit wrote:DRDOs cream of missile engineers will soon start working for US companies. As soon as the american companies collaborate with any entity outside the US this has happened and shall happen in India as well. Forget about collaboration when the going is good , remember you never had it when you needed it the most ! DRDO will be well advised to stay put and collaborate with any other company/corporation outside the US !

If they had to leave then nothing is stopping them even now to leave so your fear is misplaced, though some might move away to greener pastures but it won't be as catastrophic as you are imagining it to be. By the way reverse migration also happens.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Sep 2013 19:35

Sagar G wrote:
Karan M wrote:I wouldnt mind if Javelin production was undertaken at (say) Tata and was exported to all Khan's munnas. Allows us to build up more industrial capability in India, even if the FPA seeker tech is not transferred.
Saar that's shooting ourselves in the foot onlee. We must insist on getting critical tech from them, only and only when they are ready to share critical tech we shall lend any ear to the Americans. These verbal cowboygiri is just that only. We have already created enough industrial capability on our own regarding missile production and we can go ahead with creating more on our own as well, I strongly disagree that we need to play second fiddle to Americans in order to build up our industrial capability. If you have forgotten then let me remind you saar that the only thing Americans have done consistently to us is backstabbing.

They won't transfer critical tech. We have to develop it on our own. I am ok with that, that way we are not dependent on them for the long term. Meanwhile, production processes etc can be transferred to some pvt firm for building up an alternate to BDL. Our missile production capability still needs to be scaled up, it's always better to have an alternate source. Besides which if we can make money off of the US, no harm in that.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 17 Sep 2013 19:42

Karan M wrote:They won't transfer critical tech. We have to develop it on our own.

So ultimately it's SDRE's slopping there asses off to develop tech that we want, when at the end of the day we are going to develop ourselves the tech I think then you will agree that we must not pour money in developing American industry. Instead that money should be poured on our industry so that we achieve what we want.

Karan M wrote:I am ok with that, that way we are not dependent on them for the long term. Meanwhile, production processes etc can be transferred to some pvt firm for building up an alternate to BDL. Our missile production capability still needs to be scaled up, it's always better to have an alternate source.

The same thing can be done by changing our chootiya policies as well. Tell me saar is there anything stopping us from building our pvt. military industrial capability than our MoD ???

Karan M wrote:Besides which if we can make money off of the US, no harm in that.

Show me a military deal where the buyer has made more money off than the seller.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Sep 2013 19:48

The Javelin proposal nixes current buys for a future co-development.
Its for the IA to decide what it wants. A real missile right now or a futuristic missle which may or may not materialize based on US penchant for sanctioning anytime they feel like.
Even in this proposal critical technologies components will still be imported and can be cut off on constipation like TSPA tanks getting busted.

Besides whats so high tech about a simple man portable ATGM?

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 17 Sep 2013 19:53

ramana wrote:Its for the IA to decide what it wants.

Then saar we must stop right now dreaming about any Indian MIC if that is let to happen.

ramana wrote:Besides whats so high tech about a simple man portable ATGM?

The tech one doesn't have is "high tech" for the one in this case the miniaturized seeker, to be more specific as Karan saar said FPA.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 17 Sep 2013 19:58

Miniaturized seeker of only type that is made in US and patented in US? What happened to competition and why not make one of our own irrespective of patented US maal. In fact if a production line can be set up with what is available - for average requirements- can be a good step no.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 17 Sep 2013 20:02

@ NRao

Im sorry but I think you're making arbitrary arguments.

The product is already there. There is no need to build a new one nor has india asked for it. Just give ToT and we are all in agreement.

But the problem is that ToT is not being given. What could have Ashton Carter said? "sorry india, not happening?"

He brought up a jackshit "co-development" proposal because there was no other way he could say NO!!

ramana wrote:Besides whats so high tech about a simple man portable ATGM?

Guidance, range, accuracy and miniaturisation

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 17 Sep 2013 20:12

Couple of quick points

1. IA's requirement is NOW so NG Javelin won't do.
2. NG Javelin JV is a carrot to get us to buy the current Javelin.
3. If after investment by BDL/Tata if imported seeker/exotic material is denied then all our investment will go down the drain. So to be sanction safe and safe from price gouging .. FULL tot only will do.
4. My suggestion as stated before to buy these (Javelin or Spike or whatever works) off the shelf. Meet the immediate requirement.
5. That still leaves us with ample opportunity to go for a desi mpAT down the line.
AT (mostly mp) shortage is ~ 44,000
Konkurs-M ~ 10,000
3rd Gen F&F ~ 9,000

There still will be a gap of around 25,000 ATGM. Say 15,000 - 20,000 will probably be covered by local production of Konkurs-M in the years ahead. So we still have space for desi mpAT .. also our current inventory will also at some point need replacement.

Edited: ATGM shortage calc

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Sep 2013 20:12

SG,

(No need for "respect" etc. Your views are as important as mine.)

Let me, for the sake of brevity, break down the entire discussion into two parts: co-production and co-development.

The prior is a short term, immediate action which is part of a sales cycle. Which is why you should expect them to include words like sales, billions/millions, ToT, etc. This will be influenced by economic, and therefore job, conditions in both nations. I see this impacting "things" in the 2-4 year range - bam-bam impact, right now, get it done, move on.

Then there is the other dimension, a longer or much, much longer term, which includes such esoteric topics like R&D, Project Management, Manufacturing, Procurement and Supply chain. Co-development. Here India should not expect core technologies to be parted with: no nation will do that (Snecma did not want to co-develop a core for the Kaveri - it is natural. Wonder if the T-90 gun barrel falls into this cat too). India will get some of these core techs in a black box. Things MAY change, but both getting techs in a black box and change are to be expected. I just hope DRDO and teh Labs have a healthy view of the situation.

I THINK it is worth looking into co-development ONLY because co-development with the US offers FAR more than just R&D. India could REALLY do with PM, manufacturing, procurement and supply chain. I can tell you that there is no other nation that can provide that list.

The topic of co-development has been raised for about 2-3 years, but it is only coming into the picture this year for the very first time. So, there are very, very, very few data points to go by. Here is the latest I have:

Sept 17, 2013 :: US working on giving India access to defence technology: US Deputy Secretary of Defence

The United States is working on giving India the same status as some of its "very closest allies" in the area of techonology and export controls by getting the bureaucratic hurdles out of the way, says a top Pentagon official.

As part of its efforts to take the India-US defence relationship to the next level and help New Delhi raise the indigenisation of its of its defence systems, the Pentagon has initiated several India-specific steps, details of which have not been revealed so far.

Deputy Secretary of Defence Ashton B Carter will be in India with a number of co-production and co-development projects to New Delhi to see whether India would be interested in them and could further be discussed when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh meets President Barack Obama on September 27. "So what we're doing is in the technology and export controls area, working so that India has the same status as our very closest allies and that our system is operating on a time scale that's consistent with the needs for the Indian side to make decisions," Deputy Secretary of Defence Ashton B Carter told PTI.

Carter, who leads the US side for the Defence Technology Initiative, will have discussions with officials in India on the DTI. National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon leads the Indian side.

Asserting that the US and India are destined to be partners in the world stage even though their interests do not coincide always, Carter said the Obama Administration is keen to take the India-US defence relationship to the next level and help New Delhi increase indignation of its defence system.

"Many find our foreign military sales programme cumbersome, and many of my Indian colleagues say the same thing to me, and I readily acknowledge that we need to get better at making it more user-friendly," Carter told PTI. "So co-production and co-development projects...I'm bringing a number of them to India to present and say only you know whether you'd be interested in these, but what I can tell you is, I've gotten the bureaucratic obstacles out of the way," Carter said.

National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon is leading the Indian side in this initiative, which many say is going to be path-breaking. "It obviously has many dimensions. We're working very, very hard on it, as are our colleagues in India. This is a long-term project, but it has a number of very short-term excellent prospects for doing things the way India would like to do it, which is an emphasis on co-production, co-development, technology-sharing, and digitisation, and so forth," he said.

"We hope to have some of that ready so that when the Prime Minister comes and meets with President Obama. I'm sure they'll be discussing the idea, but they'll also have some specific examples, in addition to the C-130J and the things that are already going on and the things that we might be able to do in the future together," Carter said.

"The goal is to make it so that the only limitations on what we can do together as two defence establishments are limitations that arise from our different interests or different policies, but that there otherwise isn't any mechanical or bureaucratic impediment to doing things together that we want to do," Carter said.

Ultimately it is a decision that India has to make.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 17 Sep 2013 20:41

It is all cumbersome 'by default' for all only. So what does it change.

See the first point below- guess its the same for patent regime. Very rough comparison.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=3120
More power to indegenous efforts only.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 17 Sep 2013 20:44

@ NRao

India asked javelin deal with ToT
US said NO
Now india will approach the israelis for spike because they are ready to give ToT

The "co-development" proposal is actually a diplomats thenga!!. Ajai shukla has already gone all gung-ho over ashton carters jibber jabber with back to back articles which reads more like an advertisement on behalf of US defence companies.