LCA News and Discussions

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member_27444
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby member_27444 » 24 Sep 2013 02:55

It was well known that Kaveri would not fly LCA
Now the joke is it will be UAV etc etc

Kaveri at best be aux gen for Indian made civilian 300 seater passenger plain. Due to be made in India by 2045

After testing for twenty years on test bed ....

But we have mastered many technologies that are viable in India

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 24 Sep 2013 09:13

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 2322 Test Flights Successfully. (18-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-371,LSP1-74,LSP2-282,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,LSP5-218,LSP7-57,NP1-4,LSP8-27)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2325 Test Flights Successfully. (20-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-371,LSP1-74,LSP2-283,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,LSP5-220,LSP7-57,NP1-4,LSP8-27)

IOC kab hoga ?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby member_27444 » 24 Sep 2013 11:16

Indian oil corporation?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 24 Sep 2013 15:30

Initial Operation Clearance

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby member_20453 » 24 Sep 2013 16:16

NRao wrote:Cross posting, as a FYI on "FOC", actually on any "OC":

Kartik wrote:RSAF F-15SG's attain FOC 3.5 years after first deliveries

RSAF F-15SGs achieve FOC


God! Are they late!!


I think this is about the right amount of time it takes for FOC, Rafale if it ever arrives for IAF will also only be FOC by 2018-2020 depends on when it is ordered.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby RKumar » 25 Sep 2013 20:26

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 2325 Test Flights Successfully. (20-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-371,LSP1-74,LSP2-283,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,LSP5-220,LSP7-57,NP1-4,LSP8-27)
to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2327 Test Flights Successfully. (24-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-371,LSP1-74,LSP2-285,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,LSP5-220,LSP7-57,NP1-4,LSP8-27)

I guess IOC-2 around 2350-2400 flights

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Uttam » 25 Sep 2013 20:28

RKumar wrote:I guess IOC-2 around 2350-2400 flights


I thought IOC-2 is dependent on testing milestones achieved in terms of ability of the aircraft and not the number of flights.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sagar G » 25 Sep 2013 20:39

I never saw this piece of info posted here,

Another significant development was the projected requirement from HAL for the supply of LCA-TEJAS composite parts for the series production of the aircraft. HAL approached CSIR-NAL with a formal proposal for production and supply of twenty sets of thirteen composite parts for the series production of Tejas aircraft for the IAF. These parts were earlier produced and supplied by the Advanced Composites Division of CSIR-NAL for LCA Technology Demonstrators, Prototype Vehicles and Limited Series Production aircraft. I must stress here that CSIR-NAL has taken up this major responsibility on a special request from HAL only because of the project’s national importance and the tight delivery schedules involved. We have hence brought in Tata Advanced Materials Limited (TAML), Bangalore, a prestigious Tata Group Company in Bangalore, as the production partner to execute this project.


From NAL 2010-11 Director Annual Report.

Uttam wrote:
RKumar wrote:I guess IOC-2 around 2350-2400 flights


I thought IOC-2 is dependent on testing milestones achieved in terms of ability of the aircraft and not the number of flights.


It still is, he is just guessing around which number of flights IOC 2 will be achieved.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 25 Sep 2013 22:12

What is normal transfer of technology is touted as a major achievement?

Why couldn't HAl sub-contract with TATAs and let them get the ToT from NAL?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sagar G » 25 Sep 2013 22:44

They only mentioned about it I don't see any "touting".

I guess for the tech NAL is the OEM so that's why HAL asked NAL directly to deliver the components.

Edit:- Also note that

I must stress here that CSIR-NAL has taken up this major responsibility on a special request from HAL only because of the project’s national importance and the tight delivery schedules involved.


So for Mk.2 they might go to the pvt. vendor directly.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 26 Sep 2013 02:38

TAML, TASL and Tata Power SED are such great success stories in our defense sector. On-time delivery, and high quality have led to international orders. TAML aims at having a revenue of $1B in 4-5 years. That will be 20% of the world market!

HAL already has strategic partnership ship with TAML regarding ALH and (if I am not wrong) Lakshya parts. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't go the same way for Tejas Mk2.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 26 Sep 2013 22:03

Are these publicly listed companies ? TAML TASL ?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 28 Sep 2013 08:50

Maiden engine relight test of Tejas held

The Light Combat Aircraft Tejas successfully completed its maiden engine relight test on Friday -- a critical parameter the programme needs to achieve for the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC). Military sources confirmed to Express that the Limited Series Production (LSP-7) aircraft from the Tejas flight-line, piloted by Gp Capt R R Tyagi, underwent the engine relight test at 1 pm. The LSP-7 was chased by a Hawk aircraft.

“It is a great milestone for a single-engine fighter aircraft. The relight test is the second most critical event for a fighter jet programme, after its maiden flight. The pilot took the flight to a height of 30,000 ft before the relight test, which was performed over the skies of Kolar region,” a source said.

During Friday’s test, the pilot is said to have brought the throttle down to zero for a few seconds, so that the aircraft loses power. The pilot pulled the throttle again, confirming the relight process. Engine relight is done to check the aircraft’s performance in an emergency situation.

A senior airworthiness official said the project is now slowly, but steadily completing the IOC-2 parameters. “So far Tejas has logged over 2,330 flights clocking around 1,350 hours. It is high time we finish IOC-2 and get on with the FOC (Final Operational Clearance) formalities,” the official said.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby adarshp » 28 Sep 2013 09:22

^^^ Wonderful news.. I wonder if all the range of wake penetration tests and all weather clearance are done.. IIRC, these were the big areas for IOC - 2...

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby member_20317 » 28 Sep 2013 10:07

Is there any test where both the engine and the APU and every other battery power source is tested in this manner in various permutations. Basically re-start after turning itself into a ballistic brick.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 28 Sep 2013 10:45

the CABS AEW seems to land daily around 12:20pm. so it must be regularly flying too. saw it on a saturday mission also.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby PratikDas » 28 Sep 2013 12:51

Would someone kindly shed some light on what would happen to the LCA if the engine was powered down? Would there still be hydraulic power to keep the control surfaces moving and have the LCA move like a dart? Or would it drop and spin?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby krishnan » 28 Sep 2013 17:11

is there any fighter aircraft that can do that ????

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 28 Sep 2013 20:45

ravi_g wrote:Is there any test where both the engine and the APU and every other battery power source is tested in this manner in various permutations. Basically re-start after turning itself into a ballistic brick.

If both the APU and the engine malfunction, there is no hope for an unstable platform. What batteries?

PratikDas wrote:Would someone kindly shed some light on what would happen to the LCA if the engine was powered down? Would there still be hydraulic power to keep the control surfaces moving and have the LCA move like a dart? Or would it drop and spin?


As long as the APU has power, you would be able to move your control surfaces. It would be like flying a glider.
Last edited by Indranil on 28 Sep 2013 20:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sagar G » 28 Sep 2013 20:48

indranilroy wrote:As long as the APU has power, you would be able to move your control surfaces. It would be like flying a glider.


Are the wings of LCA big enough for it to glide minus power ???

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 28 Sep 2013 20:52

Sagar G wrote:
indranilroy wrote:As long as the APU has power, you would be able to move your control surfaces. It would be like flying a glider.


Are the wings of LCA big enough for it to glide minus power ???


Ofcourse it can glide, but not at long as a glider. It will be lose energy faster.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sagar G » 28 Sep 2013 20:56

indranilroy wrote:Ofcourse it can glide, but not at long as a glider. It will be lose energy faster.


Do you mean to say that minus power LCA could still be landed safely ??

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby member_20317 » 28 Sep 2013 21:02

I don't know about battery supply. It was a speculation.

The life support related systems (ejection seat, oxygen supply, radio) are all these hooked up straight to the APU supply? Would a small capacitor bank or a battery not help in an emergency. In fact during testing phase I guess people would like to have that much more safety for some other instrumentation. After all even a black box (or its equivalent) would deserve an independent power supply.

I would be comfortable with losing the hydraulics but getting to save the data.

[/speculation off]

RSS would ensure the aircraft falls down without APU but at least save the data. Hell the data is the aircraft.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 28 Sep 2013 21:03

being statically unstable I dont think minus power it will converge into stable equilibrium (?)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 28 Sep 2013 21:04

now that is where the contradiction is.. it is designed with unstable configuration, and as long as FBW signals can be taken over by manual or FBO signals, to help glide.

besides APU, it is good to have a li po battery to power the processors and logic circuitry.

ps:
btw, that should be the way to go.. going by the quadruple fail-ops design strategy.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 28 Sep 2013 21:21

Sagar G wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Ofcourse it can glide, but not at long as a glider. It will be lose energy faster.


Do you mean to say that minus power LCA could still be landed safely ??


After you have lost power (from your engines), the total energy that you have is potential energy plus kinetic energy and you are losing this energy in the form of drag. If you can reach the airstrip before your kinetic energy becomes less than what is present at stall speed, you can land it.

Ofcourse if your APU has failed you, you have no way to move the control surfaces which is required to keep an unstable platform in the air.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby harbans » 28 Sep 2013 21:27

Does anyone remember i had posted here some months back how an AC can take off and land without wires using electromagnets/ magnets from a flight deck? The US is building something on those lines.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sagar G » 28 Sep 2013 21:33

indranilroy wrote:After you have lost power (from your engines), the total energy that you have is potential energy plus kinetic energy and you are losing this energy in the form of drag. If you can reach the airstrip before your kinetic energy becomes less than what is present at stall speed, you can land it.

Ofcourse if your APU has failed you, you have no way to move the control surfaces which is required to keep an unstable platform in the air.


This should have gone in your first post itself, saala I had started to wonder that whatever teeny tiny bit I know about LCA is totally false. So FBW failure would result in LCA dropping like a stone right ??? If APU can provide enough power to the critical components necessary for keeping LCA in flight then it can be glided to safety otherwise it's eject for the pilot and LCA will crash.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 28 Sep 2013 21:38

ravi_g wrote:I don't know about battery supply. It was a speculation.

The life support related systems (ejection seat, oxygen supply, radio) are all these hooked up straight to the APU supply? Would a small capacitor bank or a battery not help in an emergency. In fact during testing phase I guess people would like to have that much more safety for some other instrumentation. After all even a black box (or its equivalent) would deserve an independent power supply.

I would be comfortable with losing the hydraulics but getting to save the data.

[/speculation off]

RSS would ensure the aircraft falls down without APU but at least save the data. Hell the data is the aircraft.


You would have fail-safe power supply for safety critical parts, but they have nothing to do with the control surfaces. To move the control surfaces, you need a lot of energy which would need a large battery. There is no scope of that on a fighter plane.

I don't know why you would be comfortable losing your hydraulics with a man inside. The order of priority is to save the pilote, then the plane and then the data.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 28 Sep 2013 21:41

Sagar G wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Ofcourse if your APU has failed you, you have no way to move the control surfaces which is required to keep an unstable platform in the air.


This should have gone in your first post itself, saala I had started to wonder that whatever teeny tiny bit I know about LCA is totally false.

That was in my first post that you replied to :-?

Sagar G wrote:
indranilroy wrote:As long as the APU has power, you would be able to move your control surfaces. It would be like flying a glider.


Are the wings of LCA big enough for it to glide minus power ???


Sagar G wrote:So FBW failure would result in LCA dropping like a stone right ??? If APU can provide enough power to the critical components necessary for keeping LCA in flight then it can be glided to safety otherwise it's eject for the pilot and LCA will crash.

Yes.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sagar G » 28 Sep 2013 21:48

indranilroy wrote:That was in my first post that you replied to :-?


Oh yes :oops: The glider part overpowered me and I started thinking on the lines of LCA minus engine power == glider.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 28 Sep 2013 21:54

Can the LCA be fitted with an extendible ram ait turbine inorder to produce power and control the air craft in the event of engine and APU failure.

Some thing like that is fitted in civilian airliners, as fail safe, to deal with the problem as explained in above, by IR.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_air_turbine

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby member_20317 » 28 Sep 2013 22:12

indranilroy wrote:I don't know why you would be comfortable losing your hydraulics with a man inside. The order of priority is to save the pilote, then the plane and then the data.


O sorry about that. Moi only a momin from the left side of lord Shiva. sorry if I gave that impression. The pilot certainly comes before everything else, except when the pilot is a pilot only in name like the ones in the Indian National Congress. :P

But after that my priority changes. With a working plane and no risk taking, I will be a king of good times. I will never know how many ways I can be taken down. With the data I know for certain of one more way of protecting myself from a hitherto unassessed risk. Tayiyara udaayenge to giraenge bhi. No risk in testing could result in too heavy an end product that people may not take to kindly.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Eric Leiderman » 28 Sep 2013 22:30

Hydraulic systems for safety have an accumulator, This is filled with pressurised hydraulic fluid with a head of inert nitrogen gas. If the power to drive the hydraulic motors fail. This accumulator will give x-number of actions that the operator can make before effective pressure bleeds off. Once an action is given hydraulic valves lock into place (Whereby say a flap were actuated to 10 deg that position will be maintained) thereby causing very little pressure bleed in the system. Thats how we do it on ships so maybe I am spouting off for aircraft. Guru gyan??

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby krishnan » 29 Sep 2013 07:08

i always thought if the engines fail , its the end of the aircraft

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 29 Sep 2013 07:24

capabilities wise, it depends on how safe you want to be, and how much of the aircraft needs to be salvaged.

it can vary from personal ejection system, or ejecting a well contained set of systems (that includes all mission critical data and surival kit) and pilot, to even saving the complete aircraft depending what can be dropped off, that is unsafe to be saved.

usually it would best to get pilot+survival kit and crash the a/c... and hopefully, the pilot gets picked up... landing in a enemy zone is where the challenge is.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby RKumar » 30 Sep 2013 17:40

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 2327 Test Flights Successfully. (24-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-371,LSP1-74,LSP2-285,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,LSP5-220,LSP7-57,NP1-4,LSP8-27)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2332 Test Flights Successfully. (28-Sep-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-371,LSP1-74,LSP2-286,PV5-36,LSP3-157,LSP4-94,LSP5-220,LSP7-60,NP1-4,LSP8-28)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby nikhil_p » 30 Sep 2013 19:14

All hydraulic systems, esp. on a/c are built with a certain amount of redundancy. On a car for example, the hydraulic brakes/ power steering/ clutch all have a master/slave setup. The master and slave cylinders are both diagonal split with two intakes and two outlets split by a diapraghm or one way valve. When the pressure on one side of the diagonal is less than the other side the valve actuates as it is probably due to a leak in the transmission system. This will allow at least half the cylinder to still pump fluid into the system. What will happen in this case is that (based on your vehicle setup) you might have delayed response time (allowing you to limp to nearest safe spot) or half of your braking system will still remain effective (allowing you to drive in some cases to the nearest service center at reduced speeds). This even after your brake fluid holder (container) is empty. This holds for the steering rack/ clutch as well.

On aircraft the actuators are designed to work on a op-fail-safe op- fail- safe op- fail - manual system. There are a system of pumps. The main pump will typically work off the engine. In case of an engine failure the pump will have a reserve pumping capacity (IIRC approximately 60%) working off a battery run motor.At this stage the pilot will have a reduced response time, however there is a backup pump (also running off battery power) which he can call upon (software also) in case it is in a fight regime to keep the response almost same. This will allow for a few minutes of full power actuation. After the battery on the secondary (backup) reduces to 20% or below it switches off - conserving it for flaps etc during landing. The main pump still continues to provide some support to the actuators on key surfaces. In most cases the pilot will lock a glide slope and maintain a high angle of attack to increase the glide distance as much as possible. This will reduce the amount of inputs required by the pilot and thus reduce the usage of the emergency backup system.

The weight of the batterys is not high and it is not intended to run a high torque motor. This by itself enables it to be used on most fighter a/c.

The fluid transmission system (hoses/ etc) are also designed with multiple break chambers. In case of one hose failing/ leaking, it can be delinked from the rest of the system while full control is still maintained through backup hoses (the backup hoses are thinner and have higher pressure rating, however a higher fail time - designed to be used only for the emergency use - will be swapped once the a/c is back on the ground.

All this is linked to the FBW system. There will be no instance where the FBW will fail completely unless it breaches multiple points on the hydraulic system. On a highly unstable platform like the YellCeeYay, it will still be able to allow for a glide at certain angles of attack.

If all else fails - the pilot will still be able to eject. Man first machine second.

Disclaimer - These systems are possible to use - i am not saying the LCA has them - it may or may not. (hopefully 'may' is the answer).

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Prem Kumar » 30 Sep 2013 19:58

indranilroy wrote:The order of priority is to save the pilote, then the plane and then the data.


Somewhat off-tangent, but here is something I've wondered about for a while. On the LCA (& even other planes for that matter), why not use a satellite based telemetry system for data analysis? A central processing computer will collate all the flight health check information including cockpit voice recording data, black box data etc & compress the files. Use the satellite link to periodically transmit this information in an encrypted fashion via the INSAT or the upcoming communications satellite. The data is then sent to one or more control stations which decrypts, decompress, stores the files and use them for analysis later.

This will be especially useful for analyzing root causes for crashes where the recovery of black boxes itself is a long drawn out procedure.

The satellite uplink can be programmed to be turned-off if the plane is flying in a stealth mode during war time

It will involve some up front investments but given our ISRO expertise in telemetry, control stations, satellite image processing etc, this should be perfectly do'able

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 30 Sep 2013 20:01

^^ The An-32 uses nitrogen bottles to force hydraulic fluid from the accumulator into the main landing gear in a single use last ditch effort after everything else has failed. I was onboard one flight flown by a spunky lady Flight Lieutenant when this occured. It worked.

IAF transport pilots dont get the limelight - or ejection seats - like fighter pilots, but I would rate their proficiency far higher than fighter jockeys.


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