Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 02 Aug 2013 02:00

In no country govt dept fight openly

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Aug 2013 06:57

Philip,

One shoe has dropped:

Aug 6, 2013 :: US, India discuss joint production of military equipment

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 07 Aug 2013 07:32

Obviously, America cannot outsource defense equipment from China and Pakis will sell them outright to the Chinese.

India can help America maintain 'numerical superiority' over the Chinese by providing cheap semi-skilled labor for defense equipment manufacturing (Just lookup the cost of their new generation defense gear).

All the offsets which Tata's and other private sector companies are doing must have opened up their eyes finally.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2013 09:23

Import of Defence Products [ MOD Press ]

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 18 Aug 2013 11:44

Austin wrote:Import of Defence Products [ MOD Press ]

Wow, that is a lot of data to chew on. Confirms many of the speculated acquisitions.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 13 Sep 2013 01:17

US set to bag $5bn defence deals

Defence ministry sources on Thursday said the deals for six more C-130J " Super Hercules" aircraft ($1.2 billion), 22 Apache attack helicopters ($1.4 billion), 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers ($885 million) and 15 Chinook heavy-lift helicopters (around $1 billion) "are in the final stages" now.

<snip>

Incidentally, the four deals are also in tune with the government's recent approval to the Rs 90,000 crore plan to raise a new mountain strike corps along with two "independent" infantry brigades and two "independent" armoured brigades (totalling over 80,000 soldiers) over the next seven years to plug operational gaps against China.

While the first six C-130J aircraft acquired by IAF are based at the Hindon airbase, the six new "Super Hercules" will be housed at Panagarh in West Bengal. Panagarh will serve as the headquarters for the new Army mountain corps.

Similarly, the air-mobile M-777 howitzers, with an almost 30-km range, can be swiftly deployed in high-altitude areas in Arunachal Pradesh and Ladakh by helicopters and aircraft to counter China.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 13 Sep 2013 01:37

Humm these things are costly. Are we also paying for TSP purchase, that USA will give them later as grant?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 16 Sep 2013 17:54

US offers to co-develop advanced Javelin missile with India

US had proposed that her companies could join hands with Indian partners in setting up manufacturing facilities for five major systems in India

The US Deputy Secretary of Defence, Ashton Carter, who arrives in India on Monday for a two-day visit, has masterminded a proposal that could dramatically boost US-India defence relations.

The US Department of Defence (Pentagon) has written to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) proposing that the two countries collaborate in jointly developing a next-generation version of the Javelin anti-tank missile.

India has been offered a specific share of the development programme and requested to respond by a specific date. The Pentagon is going ahead with this progamme on its own if India chooses not to participate.

Last year, Carter had proposed that US companies could join hands with Indian partners in setting up manufacturing facilities for five major systems in India. These include the MH-60 Romeo multi-role helicopter, built by Sikorsky and Lockheed Martin; a delivery system for scatterable mines; and the M-45 127 millimetre rapid-fire naval gun. Later, the US proposed co-producing the Javelin missile, which is built by Raytheon and Lockheed Martin;

New Delhi has not yet responded to the co-manufacture proposal. Now Carter has raised the ante with his proposal for co-developing the next-generation Javelin.

India has a successful co-development project with Russia for the Brahmos cruise missile, and with Israel for the Long Range Surface to Air Missile (LR-SAM) and Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MR-SAM). But with the US, India has only bought equipment over-the-counter. American equipment has not even been manufactured in India with technology transfer, far less co-developed.

US officials, speaking anonymously, confirm that the co-development proposal will be on Ashton Carter’s discussion agenda during his meetings in New Delhi on Tuesday. Carter will be meeting a range of Indian officials, including National Security Advisor, Shivshankar Menon.

Top Indian MoD sources confirm to Business Standard that the US co-development proposal for the next-generation Javelin has been received and is being evaluated.

A senior DRDO source also confirmed the US offer, but played it cool. He said, “The DRDO welcomes co-development of advanced weapon systems, provided there is real technological collaboration involved. India needs to fill its technology gaps and co-development should ensure that both partners build upon their mutual strengths.”

Carter’s proposal is part of a 15-month-old American push to intensify its defence relationship with India. Earlier, in response to New Delhi’s interest in the Javelin, the US State Department had observed that fulfilling India’s requirement would “alter the regional military balance.” Worse, Washington refused to transfer key technologies that New Delhi insisted upon as a part of the deal.

That approach changed dramatically since June 2012, when then US Defence Secretary Leon Panetta, nominated Ashton Carter, to break down the bureaucratic barriers in Washington that impeded the US-India defence relationship --- which Washington had determined was pivotal to America’s future in Asia. A formal mechanism called the DTI --- tellingly, the US called it the Defence Trade Initiative, while India referred to it as Defence Technology Initiative --- was set up. Carter co-chairs it along with National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon,

A close watcher of the Pentagon says Carter has pushed the US bureaucracy hard to change their approach to India. Earlier, US officials regarded India as just another non-NATO country --- one with which America did not even have a formal alliance, and which was unwilling to sign cooperative agreements with the US.

“Before Carter got to work, releasing technology to India required a comprehensive justification to be made out. By April 2013, Pentagon officials needed to justify why a particular technology could not be released to India,” says the Pentagon watcher.

The Javelin is now a focus area for Carter. At one stage, the Indian MoD was close to buying a rival missile, the Israeli Spike, for its $1-1.5 billion tender for 8,400 missiles and 321 launcher units for the army’s 350-plus infantry units. But the MoD, wary of a single-vendor buy, ordered a “technology scan” to ascertain that there was no missile on the market other than the Spike.

The FGM-148 Javelin, jointly built by US companies, Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, is the world’s premier man-portable, anti-tank missile. It gives infantrymen, highly vulnerable to enemy tanks on the battlefield, a weapon with which to destroy heavy armoured vehicles from a distance of 2.5 kilometres.

But the Israeli Spike, while not nearly as capable, is likely to be a good deal cheaper. If the MoD chooses price over capability, the Spike is likely to emerge the winner.

“But if the MoD agrees to Washington’s co-development proposal, the Javelin would become the clear front-runner for the $1-1.5 billion Indian contract. That is now a realistic prospect,” says a well informed member of the US defence industry.

Wonder what the other four systems are? Probably Patriot and one of the teens would account for two?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 16 Sep 2013 18:35

Acharya wrote:In no country govt dept fight openly

not true saar, happens all the time in democracies or in the case of certain ME countries, ministries actually deploy their troops against each other

what matters is that there is a mechanism to close the dispute

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 17 Sep 2013 20:23

Seems like Javelin is a good buy for India too. Institutionalizing the defence manufactuing/production with US is good and especially if GOI can get in a quote into the partnership that GOI also has to approve exports of the co-produced products to the friendly countries.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 29 Sep 2013 14:53

Did the MMS sign any arms deals on his US visit? Any progress the C-130J, Chinook etc deals?

Will · Post by **Will** » 29 Sep 2013 17:06

fanne wrote:Humm these things are costly. Are we also paying for TSP purchase, that USA will give them later as grant?

Always been my point about purchases from Uncle. Its like indirectly subsidising gifts to our neighbour.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Sep 2013 17:48

MMS behaves more like a viceroy visiting his masters holding the real power, than the PM of a billion strong nation. Taking gifts of arms purchases.

kit · Post by **kit** » 29 Sep 2013 18:59

Khan is getting to have the proverbial cake and eating it too. American is only interested in continuing the status quo between India and Pakistan for all foreseeable future.Getting India to buy the same weapons that it will pass onto Pakistan as grants.Talk about geopolitical independence.. India will be tied to uncle Sam's coat tail ! ..to be dragged where ever khan sees fit. Embargoes and sanctions at any senators sneeze not to mention paying through the nose for all and everything .Anyway all has to happen before any change in madams government ..AND all this will have the added advantage in ensuring that India s nuclear emasculation stays in place for the future. .There will be of course no new weapon tests nor any other improvements in weapon designs. The very threat of holding back parts for major systems will be enough to hobble a future government..[ By the way the state department even now has a wording that it adds before any arms purchase goes through to India.. That this sale will not affect the strategic balance in the subcontinent.]

kit · Post by **kit** » 29 Sep 2013 19:48

As with all weaponry, capabilities to design and develop tend to atrophy with each and every purchase of a system that cannot be developed locally since money is only so much ( unless you can print dollars !) .. for china the western embargo was a blessing.Now the purchases of C17 and the hercules will definitely put an end to any indigenous solution ...OT any way

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Sep 2013 19:57

Kit, khans importance is only due to the slavish importance shown by the UPA, if India makes up its own mind, all this insecurity will vanish. Khan itself appreciates strength not waffling bureaucrats masquerading as leaders.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 Sep 2013 20:01

They have been always supplying. Once we are able to dictate buyers of codeveloped weapons, things might change. We cannot forgo buying just because Pakistan will get it too. Russia is supplying to China if same logic is used. Time to take bull by horns and be a matador. Khan has & can supply if we look at China challenge. If Khan is willing to give access to high technology & develop jointly, its wonderful. It is more than Europeans & Russians are doing, may be not in the strictest sense. Since PVN days we have learnt to play ball instead of sitting in economy class and gossip on players.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 29 Sep 2013 22:11

Nothing is static in this world, Yes we have had bad experiences with the US, However at that time we were firmly in the USSR orbit.
The Geostrategic equation is different now.
Nothing wrong in giving a piece of the pie to them, it spreads the risk of anyone squueeezzing our tender parts when the chips are down.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Sep 2013 03:25

The point is not to go round slavishly giving people pieces of a pie, which is already too expensive to begin with (Defence is 20% of our yearly budget as i recall, and it still brings us little bang for the back, since imports are so expensive). But to develop our own capabilities to stand on our own. That takes a bit of proper planning and effort, as versus handing out bakshish to massa bahadur or uncle bear or anyone else.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Sep 2013 06:41

The reasoning is ideal and the real world is less then ideal. US weapons not necessarily expensive. There are enough tenders in India which support that. Even MMRCA, there is no hint that F-16 and f-18 were expensive. They offered what is more advanced than they are fielding. It is a different matter that they have new gen planes in works.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 30 Sep 2013 07:14

Karan in an ideal world what you say makes sense, Are we operating in that environment?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Sep 2013 07:18

At the same time, nothing stops us from pursuing our own capabilities. Israeli's are doing that. Australians are doing that. We have to build up capabilities.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Sep 2013 11:36

Eric Leiderman wrote:Karan in an ideal world what you say makes sense, Are we operating in that environment?

How will the environment change unless we make a comprehensive attempt to change it?

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 30 Sep 2013 13:18

chackojoseph wrote:The reasoning is ideal and the real world is less then ideal. US weapons not necessarily expensive. There are enough tenders in India which support that. Even MMRCA, there is no hint that F-16 and f-18 were expensive. They offered what is more advanced than they are fielding. It is a different matter that they have new gen planes in works.

The biggest irony is that tendering in the US is fraught with almost as much dirty tricks as it is in India, and they cannot avail of an FMS route for their own armed forces when they need something fast. Not only has it led to delays but outright program cancellations.

People who state that having a desi MIC will be a silver bullet often don't think through the fundamental lacunae in acquisition processes, which have more to do with lack of transparency and coteries getting formed between interested parties.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Sep 2013 15:55

All said and done, they have the tech and availability.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 05 Oct 2013 13:55

Denel COO welcomes chance to re-engage with India

Denel Group COO Jan Wessels has welcomed the prospect of relations with India returning to normal after the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) closed its eight-year-long inquiry into alleged wrongdoing by the South African company over a USD30-40 million contract to supply NTW 20/14.5 anti-materiel rifles and ammunition to the Indian Army.

While Denel will obviously be interested in following up previous discussions on artillery, anti-materiel rifle, and munitions projects, Wessels said he sees potential to develop a defence industrial relationship similar to the growing co-operation between South Africa and Brazil, pointing out that the India-Brazil-South Africa (IBSA) agreement specifically includes such ties.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 05 Oct 2013 13:56

crosspost
-----------------
India Pursues Indigenous ATGM Amid Javelin Talks

NEW DELHI — India has begun working on a homemade, man-portable anti-tank guided missile (ATGM), despite a US proposal to co-produce the Javelin ATGM.

Defence Ministry sources said the homemade project — a third generation Nag missile — is unlikely to derail the proposed Javelin deal, which is in only the preliminary stages of negotiation with the US. A scientist with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) claimed the Nag is lighter than the Javelin.

In what one US Embassy diplomat in India described as a groundbreaking initiative in India’s ties with Washington, US Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carter has proposed that India co-develop — rather than merely buy — the Javelin missile.

The Indian Army has a pressing demand for more than 20,000 third generation man-portable ATGMs, and all attempts to procure them from overseas over the past eight years has yielded no results.

Israel’s offer of its Spike ATGM was rejected in 2007 because it was the only vendor to respond to the tender. The US, meanwhile, refused to transfer technology after a proposal to buy the Javelin on a government-to-government basis. Indian MoD sources said that last year, the US refused to sell Javelin in adequate numbers to India due to “ international strategic and geopolitical considerations.”

The full details of Washington’s latest Javelin proposal have not been released, but MoD sources said the US wants to sell around 6,000 units within one year of the signing of the contract. In the future, the US would explore co-production of the Javelin and, at a later stage, work on the co-development of an ATGM tailor-made for India.{Perhaps the new willingness may be to offset the huge impending weapons transfer to Pakis and its optics in India}

The US would also transfer Javelin technology, including the manufacture of the warhead, rocket motor, propellant, guidance and seeker, but no algorithms for guidance, which an Indian Army official said is the core to any guidance system.{Desi guidance algo is top class if we go by DRDO folks. Perhaps we can replace the whole guidance algo with our own}

A team from Raytheon and Lockheed Martin has briefed the Indian MoD on the possibilities to be explored in the Javelin project, Indian MoD sources said.

A Lockheed Martin executive said Javelin is better than any other man-portable ATGM because it is ejected non-explosively, which is useful to the Indian Army in higher terrain. The executive, however, declined to discuss details of Carter’s proposal.

DRDO, meanwhile, has begun work on the homemade Nag missile, which would weigh only 16 kilograms compared to Javelin’s 26 kilograms, the DRDO scientist claimed.

The man-portable version of the Nag missile is simpler than the vehicle-mounted version and, as such, could be developed in the next three years, the scientist said.{Prototype to production is where most project schedules derail and most projects fail}

An Indian Army official said everyone, including DRDO, would be happy to get Javelin as nearly 25 years of work on the Nag ATGM has yet to result in a mature, third generation ATGM.

The Indian Army uses second generation, French-made Milan and Russian-made Konkurs ATGMs, which have a range of less than 2,000 meters.

So the proposal is import 6K outright .. followed by tot .. followed by local buy .. followed by co-development. I can live with that provided 6K does not include tot cost.

Tot cost can be bundled with local production provided tot is full and without any string attached .. except perhaps export of the product or of any subsystems .. however we should be free to do whatever we like with its derivatives.

vic · Post by **vic** » 05 Oct 2013 15:12

I think that Javelin is 12kg missile and it will be tall task for DRDO to make a missile lighter than Javelin. I think that in the first instance, they should target 15-18kg and then take it from there. In the interim, SAMHO missile can be used. Note operational weight of SAMHO is lesser compared to Javelin as it does not require heavy BCU (+spares) for operational use of the missile.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Oct 2013 15:37

pankajs wrote:Denel COO welcomes chance to re-engage with India
Denel Group COO Jan Wessels has welcomed the prospect of relations with India returning to normal after the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) closed its eight-year-long inquiry into alleged wrongdoing by the South African company over a USD30-40 million contract to supply NTW 20/14.5 anti-materiel rifles and ammunition to the Indian Army.

While Denel will obviously be interested in following up previous discussions on artillery, anti-materiel rifle, and munitions projects, Wessels said he sees potential to develop a defence industrial relationship similar to the growing co-operation between South Africa and Brazil, pointing out that the India-Brazil-South Africa (IBSA) agreement specifically includes such ties.

Excellent news! Restart Bhim and all those small arms ventures.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 05 Oct 2013 22:11

not gonna happen

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 16 Oct 2013 05:22

Ashok Leyland, L&T in line for army rocket launcher order

Hinduja Group company Ashok Leyland, along with Larsen & Toubro (L&T), is reportedly on the verge of getting an order from the Indian Army, to supply Multi Barrel Rocket Launchers.

V Sumantran, vice-chairman of Ashok Leyland, told Business Standard: “We (it is a joint bid with L&T) are the L1 (meaning, lowest bidder) in the tender which was opened. Discussions are going on. Most likely, we will execute the order to supply about 100 units.”
:
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sohels · Post by **sohels** » 22 Oct 2013 22:29

Aditya G wrote:
Austin wrote:Time to halt our weapons binge
It is like reading an entry from a school essay competition. All correct and perfect but just plain boring $hit

Ouch! As in excessively polite, or have I missed an important aspect of the issue? Always eager to learn!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Oct 2013 22:49

VinodTK wrote:Ashok Leyland, L&T in line for army rocket launcher order
Hinduja Group company Ashok Leyland, along with Larsen & Toubro (L&T), is reportedly on the verge of getting an order from the Indian Army, to supply Multi Barrel Rocket Launchers.

V Sumantran, vice-chairman of Ashok Leyland, told Business Standard: “We (it is a joint bid with L&T) are the L1 (meaning, lowest bidder) in the tender which was opened. Discussions are going on. Most likely, we will execute the order to supply about 100 units.”
:
:

Excellent. Follow on order for Pinaka, most likely.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Oct 2013 17:03

Indo-Korean Defence Summit for prospects of industrial cooperation in weapons

It's promising, but will it be workable?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Oct 2013 17:26

^^^

Or for the Grad Upgrade. As that is due for upgrade as well.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Oct 2013 17:41

Karan M wrote: Excellent. Follow on order for Pinaka, most likely.

There was a tender for replacing the trucks for GRAD - a clip exists showing GRAD rockets being fired from TATA vehicle. This one could be for GRAD Units.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Oct 2013 17:44

I thought of that.. but unless they replace the launchers why would the news report say launchers from L&T?
The BM-21 launchers are from Russia/FSU..
Could be system integration work and DDM being unclear about details though..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Oct 2013 17:51

Karan M wrote:I thought of that.. but unless they replace the launchers why would the news report say launchers from L&T?
The BM-21 launchers are from Russia/FSU..
Could be system integration work and DDM being unclear about details though..

Check this out...and comments therein.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKx4-XcYa4c

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Oct 2013 17:53

Yindoo heathen, link no show!!

Edit: Ah, can see it now that its a link. Thanks!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Oct 2013 17:59

rohitvats wrote:
Karan M wrote:I thought of that.. but unless they replace the launchers why would the news report say launchers from L&T?
The BM-21 launchers are from Russia/FSU..
Could be system integration work and DDM being unclear about details though..
Check this out...and comments therein.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKx4-XcYa4c

Hmmm...get where you are coming from. BTW the rate of fire on that thing is amazing.

Guess further Pinaka orders will be Pinaka Mk2 version only once it gets ready.