Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Sep 2013 04:21

Sridhar K wrote:Talking of Ramayana and the route taken, there are at least four temples in Chennai that dates to Ramayana times
1) Ramanathaswamy temple near Porur 2) Korungaleeswarar temple in Koyambedu. Kurugi in Tamil means shrink and the legend is that Eswara shrunk himself so that the little twins of Lava and Kusha could workship him
3) Siruvapuri perumal temple - siruvan means boy and the place where Lava and Kusha fought Rama 4) Tiruvanmiyur Marundheeshwarar temple. Vanmi is from Valmiki.Some of them have been covered herehttp://www.dharsanam.com/2008/04/porur- ... warar.html

Read somewhere , Valmiki Ashram was near in Punjab near Amritsar and Luv, Kusch both were "born there. The place is called Ram Teerath and small old Shiva temples are there along with Kund which they say Hanuman made it by pushing the ground with his foot. Cities founded by these brothers ,Both Lahore and Kasur are not far from there.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 30 Sep 2013 06:09

Narayana Rao wrote:No sir, the calculation was done wrongly as adhika masam and Sonya masam etc were not added. Bhishma explains it. Yugasandhi is when the Lord Krishna left his mortal body. It was many years after the war.

Narayana Garu,

Just to be sure....you are saying that Pandavas indeed completed 13 years.. and confusion is/was due to wrong calculations (by Duryodhana). Is that correct?

I think I am close to finding Mahabharata text references that would either clearly tell us that Pandava's exile began during ~ Vasanta Rutu (and/or allude to this timing of Vasanta Rutu.. at a minimum), Time of Go-Grahana was also that of Vasanta Rutu and thus Pandavas had completed 13 years...even based on solar year calculations.

(Have to read good number of chapters from Sabha and Vana/Aranya Parvas....before I get there)

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 30 Sep 2013 06:24

Jhujar wrote:
Shridhar ji had written...

Talking of Ramayana and the route taken, there are at least four temples in Chennai that dates to Ramayana times
1) Ramanathaswamy temple near Porur 2) Korungaleeswarar temple in Koyambedu. Kurugi in Tamil means shrink and the legend is that Eswara shrunk himself so that the little twins of Lava and Kusha could workship him
3) Siruvapuri perumal temple - siruvan means boy and the place where Lava and Kusha fought Rama 4) Tiruvanmiyur Marundheeshwarar temple. Vanmi is from Valmiki.Some of them have been covered herehttp://www.dharsanam.com/2008/04/porur- ... warar.html

Jhujar ji wrote...

Read somewhere , Valmiki Ashram was near in Punjab near Amritsar and Luv, Kusch both were "born there. The place is called Ram Teerath and small old Shiva temples are there along with Kund which they say Hanuman made it by pushing the ground with his foot. Cities founded by these brothers ,Both Lahore and Kasur are not far from there.

Valmiki Ramayana provides locations of capital(s) of Kusha and Lava - Kushavati and Shravasti (and also of sons of Laxmana, Shatrugna and Bharata) with reasonable accuracy.

Valimiki Ashrama was near sangam of Yamuna and Ganga and/or in the area of Shona (Tamasa) rivers...some 1 day chariot distance from Ayodhya.

No reason to guess places of Kusha and Lava far from Ayodhya (neither in current Pakistan nor in the south India).

As it relates to current Lahore and Kusur, what is likely is that further descendants of Ikshavaku dynasty may have had royals with similar names and/or places established after names of famous sons of Rama.....after all Bharata and his sons had settled all the way to current Pakistan/Afganistan border (Pushkalavati -Peshwar? and Takshashila - Rawalpindi/Islamabad?).

Shatrunghna established Mathura (after getting rid of Danava Madhura).

See the map of Ramayana times and locations of places related to generation ...immediately following Rama/Laxmana/Bharata/Shatrugna.

Vamsi.R · Post by **Vamsi.R** » 01 Oct 2013 18:17

i have one question to the gurus here

ever since i read the story of garuda.i have become a big fan of him.his strength,power,discipline,knowledge and wisdom is unbelievable.

i was listening to adi parva by sri changanti ji.and even he was full of praises for garuda.he even said that there are only two people who can give you instant strength when remembered one is hanuman and other is garuda. he said both are similar in many ways.

my question is . why us hindus dont pray to him as much as we pray the other gods .
why dont we see temples for him (afaik there isnt any famous one india)
why is there a rumor that we shouldn't have garuda purana book in our houses?

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 01 Oct 2013 18:34

Vamsi.R wrote:i have one question to the gurus here

ever since i read the story of garuda.i have become a big fan of him.his strength,power,discipline,knowledge and wisdom is unbelievable.

i was listening to adi parva by sri changanti ji.and even he was full of praises for garuda.he even said that there are only two people who can give you instant strength when remembered one is hanuman and other is garuda. he said both are similar in many ways.

my question is . why us hindus dont pray to him as much as we pray the other gods .
why dont we see temples for him (afaik there isnt any famous one india)
why is there a rumor that we shouldn't have garuda purana book in our houses?

There is a place in Gujarat known as Garudeshwar on banks of river Narmada (near Sardar Sarovar dam). This place is considered one of the locations Garuda has/had residence on earth. One Guru vyakti told me that Garuda flew from Garudeshwar to pickup Tukaram Maharaj from near Alandi from banks of Indrayani.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Oct 2013 20:16

Garuda is there in every Vishnu temple.

Garuda Purana is read after a death in the family. On the tenth or 13th day as per custom.

Hence its not suggested to be kept in the home. Its not a rumor but an injunction.

Vamsi.R · Post by **Vamsi.R** » 01 Oct 2013 20:27

ramana wrote:Garuda is there in every Vishnu temple.

Garuda Purana is read after a death in the family. On the tenth or 13th day as per custom.

Hence its not suggested to be kept in the home. Its not a rumor but an injunction.

we see his idol(which is merely a sculpture than a vigraha) yes .. but why no priest worships him or people worship him.is there any strict code of worship i.e, following some strictest way(madi etc) of worship
people worship hanuman so much that we have a festival on his name.why it isnt the same for garuda.
also i read somewhere on the internet that garuda was belittled by hanuman in dwaparyuga,when krishna asks garuda to bring hanuman to him .. is this true or a work of fiction ?

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 01 Oct 2013 21:32

Vamsi.R wrote: we see his idol(which is merely a sculpture than a vigraha) yes .. but why no priest worships him or people worship him.is there any strict code of worship i.e, following some strictest way(madi etc) of worship
people worship hanuman so much that we have a festival on his name.why it isnt the same for garuda.
also i read somewhere on the internet that garuda was belittled by hanuman in dwaparyuga,when krishna asks garuda to bring hanuman to him .. is this true or a work of fiction ?

Could it due to the fact that Garuda is 'Vahana' of Vishnu (not unlike Mushak- Ganesha, Peacock -Kartikeya/Sarasvati, Bull-Shiva, Eiravata/Elephant-Indra, and so on)?
These Vahana's are not worshiped either (if at all, rarely) as separate Vigraha.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 02 Oct 2013 04:00

venug, Looking into my phone the pravachanam title is "Prahalada Charitam by Oruganti Rajarajeshwari Prasad". its from Pothana Bhagavatam. It has three files. The person has a squeaky voice but never mind.

ramana garu, thank you for looking it up. I will get from the net. Thanks again.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 02 Oct 2013 04:12

I think the reason Hanuman is worshipped than Garuda is for the following reasons:
Immediately after the birth of Hanuman, all devathas including Brahma himself had blessed Hanuman with some of the best qualities and strengths that very few possess, including amaratva. Even though Garuda is Immortal like Hanuman, he is not bestowed with qualities like buddhimata, humility etc...Garuda could have these qualities as well, but they are not granted specially to him as in the case of Hanuman. It is these qualities that help him find Sita in Sundarakanda. Both are fast, intact Sita-mata says that only three people-vayu, Garuda and hanuman only have the ability to fly or travel at amazing rates. But if not for Hanuman's quick thinking he couldn't have found Sita-mata...sometimes speed and strength are not enough. And apart from that Hanuman is one of the finest Bhaktas of Sri Rama, so much that he would be at any place where Rama's name is chanted...I don't suppose Garuda is such a bakht of Maha Vishnu. And also Hanuman is supposed to be the next brahma. My 2 cents.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Oct 2013 05:07

very lessly spoken and read is the well written and poetic villiputarar bharatam in tamil.
http://nationallibrary.gov.in/ResultKey ... 1=personal

Code: Select all

Call No.   Ta 894 8111 Vi 587 m  
   Author  Villiputturar 
   Title  Mahabharatam : Adiparvam mulamum putturaiyum / Villiputturar ; edited by N. S. Ponnambala Pillai 
   Imprint  Madras : K. Subrahmanya Pallai, 1934  
   Subject  Indic literature 
   Added Author  Ponnambala Pillai, N. S, edt

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 02 Oct 2013 06:24

Can you eloborate on the piece that Hanuman is next Brahma please?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 02 Oct 2013 06:59

^

Next Brahma is Shri Hanuman and Bali chakravarti will be Indra in Saavarni Manvantaram
...
When Sugriva, the Monkey Chief sends different teams in search of Sita in different directions, Hanuman was included in the team heading to South and before the departure, Lord Rama calls Hanuman to his side and giving his royal ring, says, ”Hanuman, I am sure you will be able to find out Sita. Show this ring to her and she will be able to recognise you as my messenger.” Accordingly, Hanuman was successful in locating Sita and also in handing over the ring, to Sita who in turn gave her crest jewel to be carried back to Lord Rama.

After the successful mission of Lanka when Hanuman gave it to Lord Rama, he was so overjoyed that he embraced Hanuman and announced, ”Hanuman you will be the next Brahma.” This was in a rare recognition of his services. The creator Brahma too has an end and Lord Vishnu alone decides who would be the next creator.

http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/profile ... ala-chakra

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 02 Oct 2013 07:13

thanks!!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 02 Oct 2013 07:15

That Bali being the Next Indra needs to be told in S.TN that thinks Bali is Dravidian.

Vamsi.R · Post by **Vamsi.R** » 02 Oct 2013 17:49

venug wrote:I think the reason Hanuman is worshipped than Garuda is for the following reasons:
Immediately after the birth of Hanuman, all devathas including Brahma himself had blessed Hanuman with some of the best qualities and strengths that very few possess, including amaratva. Even though Garuda is Immortal like Hanuman, he is not bestowed with qualities like buddhimata, humility etc...Garuda could have these qualities as well, but they are not granted specially to him as in the case of Hanuman. It is these qualities that help him find Sita in Sundarakanda. Both are fast, intact Sita-mata says that only three people-vayu, Garuda and hanuman only have the ability to fly or travel at amazing rates. But if not for Hanuman's quick thinking he couldn't have found Sita-mata...sometimes speed and strength are not enough. And apart from that Hanuman is one of the finest Bhaktas of Sri Rama, so much that he would be at any place where Rama's name is chanted...I don't suppose Garuda is such a bakht of Maha Vishnu. And also Hanuman is supposed to be the next brahma. My 2 cents.

i think posessing qualities by birth is more virtuous than qualities granted by others.

examples of garuda's buddhimata and discipline :
before going to heaven to get amrutha,garuda gets hungry and catches a tortoise and elephant(as per his father's suggestions) to eat.he catches them with his claws and places them on a tree to eat.when one of the branch of the tree is about to fall.he realises that there are muni's doing penance.he immediately catches that branch with his beak and places them on mountain safely so that their penance is not disturbed.

when garuda gets amrutha from indra.indra uses vajrayudha.then garuda says to vajrayudha that " you cant do any harm to me.however since you are made of dadichi maharshi's bones,i dont want to disrespect him by ignoring you.so take one feather from my wings".

Garuda being the next Indra :
when kasyapa does puthrakameshti yaga on request of vinatha and kadruva.the valikeyulu(not sure about name) curse indra that one of the kasyapa's son will defeat you and he will be the next indra.kasyapa requests them not to do that since he doesnt want people to fight for the post of indra.so he requests them to make him as indra of birds.

iirc , garuda is the only person to see the real rupa of maha vishnu.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 03 Oct 2013 08:53

Garuda is workshipped equally as Hanuman in Perumal (Sri Vaishnava temples) in TN. Garuda is called *periya thiruvadi* or Bigger Pada of Vishnu while Hanuman is called *Siriya Thiruvadi*, the smaller Pada. There is a temple near Kumbakonam called Nachiyar Koil where a Stone Garuda is workshipped and one of the festivals, he is taken out in a procession every year. He is given a similar status to Nandhi of Siva temples. However, agree that they are not dedicated temple for Hanuman but hardly any for Garuda.

While Garuda has his great virtues and but it may also worth looking at a few things like
a) Hanuman is considered an ansh of Shiva and Vayu who came down to earth to serve Maha Vishnu during the Rama avatar.
b) One of the great virtues of Hanuman is that is that he is very humble and very rarely his strength gets to his head. There are a few stories of Garuda's ahamkara for which he is taught a lesson and he then realizes his folly.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 03 Oct 2013 09:05

There is a massive Garuda statue in the Srirangam temple too. Fitting too, with the size of the temple.

Vamsi.R · Post by **Vamsi.R** » 03 Oct 2013 19:39

Sridhar K wrote:Garuda is workshipped equally as Hanuman in Perumal (Sri Vaishnava temples) in TN. Garuda is called *periya thiruvadi* or Bigger Pada of Vishnu while Hanuman is called *Siriya Thiruvadi*, the smaller Pada. There is a temple near Kumbakonam called Nachiyar Koil where a Stone Garuda is workshipped and one of the festivals, he is taken out in a procession every year. He is given a similar status to Nandhi of Siva temples. However, agree that they are not dedicated temple for Hanuman but hardly any for Garuda.

While Garuda has his great virtues and but it may also worth looking at a few things like
a) Hanuman is considered an ansh of Shiva and Vayu who came down to earth to serve Maha Vishnu during the Rama avatar.
b) One of the great virtues of Hanuman is that is that he is very humble and very rarely his strength gets to his head. There are a few stories of Garuda's ahamkara for which he is taught a lesson and he then realizes his folly.

iam 75% satisfied with this information

but your point a, is all the difference i guess

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Oct 2013 19:57

VenuG, Started listening to Virata paravam by Ch K Rao. Its massive 1.2G download.

In the early part we see Dharmaraja taking extra precautions to ensure they wont be recognised. In fact he climbs the tree and hides the weapons and commands Sahadeva to tie another corpse to the marri tree.
They chose a good kingdom, with a non-enemy king and plausible roles. Keechaka is a wild card (shows the randomness of life and how to deal with it) and turns up much later. Currently at 4 months into the agnyatavaas, Bhima is forced to fight a wrestler Jimuta Vallabh and kills him. The commentator says the episode shows how Bhima took on the wrestler who was insulting the King and his kingdom. Its a precursor to how they would come to the rescue later on when the kingdom is threatened. In fact its Dhramaraja who suggests Bhima (Vallala the cook) to fight the wrestler.

BTW in the parts where Nakula and Sahadeva seek their jobs, it shows the deep understanding of animal husbandry needed to maintain productive cattle and cavalry & chariot (draught) horses which are both significant resources for a kingdom to exist.

One interesting thing is the five Pandaavas couldn't hide their tejas and were offered much higher positions than they sought. However Draupadi's tejas was her own handicap. The queen is worried about her own status if the king sees Draupadi. In retrospect I think if the Gods had given her a roop like Nala during his bad days, it would have been incident free. But then Vyasa is telling us itihasa and not a novel.

Have a long way to go and want to hear about the calender misperpection.

Vamsi.R · Post by **Vamsi.R** » 03 Oct 2013 20:02

iam at 15th part of adi parva.his pravachanams are pure bliss

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 03 Oct 2013 20:09

Calendar misinterpretation is indeed interesting. Number of months count or years.. calenders from different regions also come into play perhaps.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 03 Oct 2013 21:46

ramana garu, yes I am done with Mahabharata by Sri Ch.K garu and also Sri.Chandrasekhara garu. Sri Chandrasekhara garu's commentary is not elaborate like Sri Ch.K, even though his knowledge of the vedas and puranas is epic. Right now I am at the end of Sri Ch.K garu's Ramayana Pravachanam. I have a long commute to work, so use the time to listen at times. Nice to see both have a very good command over Sanskrit.

I was able to listen to Udhyoga Parva which you suggested I listen, but couldn't find any by the above. The Pravachanas in Undrajavaram Mahabharatam have some speakers talk about Udhyoga Parva, is this where you listened too?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Oct 2013 21:53

Yes. It was rom that group of speakers.

MCS is on higher plane. CHKR brings to commoners.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 04 Oct 2013 07:56

Garuda is also a constellation for ancient Bharat. In astronomical terms - Aquila is in a sense one end of the Dark Rift and also close to the formations that point to the Galactic centre.

If Vishnu is the super-massive black-hole in the Galactic centre - [and therefore both a creator/destroyer as well as indefinitely stationary from time to time - ananta sajya] then it makes sense to encode this info as Garuda being the vahana/first viewer of Vishnu.

I feel that the deliberate association of "dark" with Vishnu is about this astronomical aspect, and that is how it should be taken into context in interpretations about Vishnu in narratives.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 04 Oct 2013 09:29

^

I don't know if the naming of our galaxy as Palapunta/Milkyway and the blackhole in between as KrishnaBilam is from the literal translation of these words into Indic languages.

I doubt if it is the otherway (Indic names are source of English names for these two). Any sources?

Do we see these words in our Vedic texts?

member_24042 · Post by **member_24042** » 06 Oct 2013 07:23

There are many instances that detail the struggle and oppression of the Australoid outcastes in the Hindu epics. Not many high caste Hindus know that in the Lakshagraha incident of Mahabharata, a Nishadh (aborigine) woman and her five sons were drugged and left to be burnt alive in the place Kunti and her sons. What cold heartedness! Then we have the complete genocide of the aboriginal (possibly Mongoloid) Nagas in the infamous Khandavan forest burning where innocent animals along with the Nagas were burnt alive by Krishna and Arjuna on the orders of a Brahmin (Agni in disguise it turns out). There is the heartbreaking story of the wife of Naga Takshak being murdered by the coward Arjuna as she sacrifice herself to save her son (later killed by deceit by Arjuna in Kurukshetra war). Its worth noting that these two incidents are glossed over or sanitized by many Hindu apologists (please see the version depicted by BR Chopra for example). Eklavya's story is well known but the Hindus have manipulated into one large morality play extolling devotion to the guru. They do not even think of how such racist stories damage the psyche of former Untouchables and Adivasis--some might privately condone such things.

In fact it seems that the only noble characters other than Bhishma seem to be all Shudras: Sanjaya, Karna, Eklavya, Vidura. This then in my opinion are later interpolations added by low caste bards into the Aryan proto-Mahabharata oral tradition. This might explain the Vyasa myth.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 06 Oct 2013 07:50

TonySoprano: Stop spreading lies. The Lakshgraya incident is well known; I remember it even though I haven't read or seen a movie on MB for decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakshagrah ... akshagraha

The Nishad woman herself was part of the plot to kill. So buzz off and stop spreading your EJ propaganda.

It is also clear that it was completely acceptable for the Nishad woman to give food.

"Seeing that Bhima never slept even a single day and stayed awake all the time, Purochana asked his elder sister, a Nishadas huntswoman and her five sons to the palace to help him complete his mission. Her objective was to poison the food given to the Pandava's. But Bhima sensing danger ate the entire food, without her knowledge. Since Bhima had already consumed the Kalakoota poison as a child, the poison mixed in the food did not have any effect on him. Later in the night Purochana not knowing that the Pandava's were simply sleeping assumed them to be dead. To celebrate this Purochana began drinking and within hours was drunk. Utilizing this opportunity the Pandava's set fire to the palace and escaped through the tunnel. Ironically in the ensuing fire, Purochana, his sister and her five sons themselves perished. Meanwhile on the other side,a boat-man sent by Vidura saw the Pandavas as they emerged out of the tunnel close to the banks of river Ganges and ferried the Pandavas and their mother to safety. News about the fire reached Hastinapura and Duryodhana, who did not know that his plan had gone astray, assumed that the Pandava's were dead and secretly rejoiced. Only Vidura knew that the Pandava's were safe and he shared that information with Bheeshma alone."

The burning of Khandava got the wrath of Indra, who attacked Arjuna.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khandava_Forest
The Mahabharata states that Indra was the protecting deity (deva) of Khandava forest, which is why the region was known as Indraprastha.[3] When the forest was being burned, Indra attacked Arjun with his bolt (vajra), injuring him.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takshaka#Family
According to Shrimad-Bhagavatam, Takshaka belonged to the Ikshwaku Dynasty. He was a descendent of Shri Rama.

member_24042 · Post by **member_24042** » 06 Oct 2013 07:59

VikramS wrote:TonySoprano: Stop spreading lies. The Lakshgraya incident is well known; I remember it even though I haven't read or seen a movie on MB for decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakshagrah ... akshagraha

The Nishad woman herself was part of the plot to kill. So buzz off.

"Seeing that Bhima never slept even a single day and stayed awake all the time, Purochana asked his elder sister, a Nishadas huntswoman and her five sons to the palace to help him complete his mission. Her objective was to poison the food given to the Pandava's. But Bhima sensing danger ate the entire food, without her knowledge. Since Bhima had already consumed the Kalakoota poison as a child, the poison mixed in the food did not have any effect on him. Later in the night Purochana not knowing that the Pandava's were simply sleeping assumed them to be dead. To celebrate this Purochana began drinking and within hours was drunk. Utilizing this opportunity the Pandava's set fire to the palace and escaped through the tunnel. Ironically in the ensuing fire, Purochana, his sister and her five sons themselves perished. Meanwhile on the other side,a boat-man sent by Vidura saw the Pandavas as they emerged out of the tunnel close to the banks of river Ganges and ferried the Pandavas and their mother to safety. News about the fire reached Hastinapura and Duryodhana, who did not know that his plan had gone astray, assumed that the Pandava's were dead and secretly rejoiced. Only Vidura knew that the Pandava's were safe and he shared that information with Bheeshma alone."

So wikipedia is a source now? Please quote from Vyasa's Mahabharat. Try Ganguli's version if you don't have one yourself. The version you just regurgitated (which was unsourced in Wikipedia) also makes no logical sense as the bodies of Purochana and the five Nishad brothers equal six dead males and one dead female. Why would the Kaurav's think those charred remains are those of the FIVE Pandavas and their mother?

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 06 Oct 2013 08:43

And what does six dead vs five make a difference? There could have been a guest.

I am not a guru in these things, but as long as I remember this was the story.

But the bigger issue is how the EJ is trying to project everything in an us versus them, using the AIT memes.

In Mahabharata hundreds of thousands of people died including the principal protagonists, & their families. But the EJ will pick a few incidents and highlight how it fits their narrative.

The thing is that there is solid genetic evidence that there was a lot of genetic mixing between castes, tribes till about 2000 years ago. But the EJs will continue their vicious hatred and lies. I wish they burn in hell.

And it seems going by your claim Rama too may have been mongoloid since the Naga descended from them. More power to them.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 06 Oct 2013 08:52

The irony of the EJ poison is that the EJs themselves have destroyed native cultures globally, completely crushed them, taken their lands, their people. On the other hand in India the tribals & adivasis have continued to live in the same regions over tens of centuries.

So the people who have committed cultural & physical genocide are now preaching to the adivasis about how their country-men have abused them?

member_24042 · Post by **member_24042** » 06 Oct 2013 08:55

VikramS wrote:And what does six dead vs five make a difference? There could have been a guest.

I am not a guru in these things, but as long as I remember this was the story.

But the bigger issue is how the EJ is trying to project everything in an us versus them, using the AIT memes.

In Mahabharata hundreds of thousands of people died including the principal protagonists, & their families. But the EJ will pick a few incidents and highlight how it fits their narrative.

The thing is that there is solid genetic evidence that there was a lot of genetic mixing between castes, tribes till about 2000 years ago. But the EJs will continue their vicious hatred and lies. I wish they burn in hell.

And it seems going by your claim Rama too may have been mongoloid since the Naga descended from them. More power to them.

Buddy I am no fan of Christianity, look at some of my posts in "Global Christianity" thread. Please stop calling all those who criticize Hindus/caste system as agents of EJ or Ummah, and please what does a war (I doubt ancient civilizations could sustain "hundreds of thousands" of dead) have to do with a deliberate murder of six tribals? Vyasa has described them as "nirdosha" when you read Mahabharata. Again I beg of you to accept these shortcomings of Hindu society and work towards a more egalitarian future instead of having "all WAS well" mentality in regards to ancient Bharat.

member_24042 · Post by **member_24042** » 06 Oct 2013 08:59

VikramS wrote:The irony of the EJ poison is that the EJs themselves have destroyed native cultures globally, completely crushed them, taken their lands, their people. On the other hand in India the tribals & adivasis have continued to live in the same regions over tens of centuries.

So the people who have committed cultural & physical genocide are now preaching to the adivasis about how their country-men have abused them?

Please see in Arthashaastra how Chanakya advised rulers to deal with Adivasis (he said to poison them with liquour...sound familiar?). Fact is though adivasis have influenced a lot of what we call "Hinduism", they were never really part of society and never had much respect (and this was a best case scenario). Please now address the point in hand as this thread is about Indian epics and texts. Instead of rehashed Amar chitra katha/BR Chopra propaganda, give authentic sources.

And once again, I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN! In fact, it pains my heart to tell BRFites that EJ activity is in full swing in UK, the soul harvesters are having a rich harvest (as some contacts/family told me) due to the recent tragedy. EJ activity also developed a base in north Bihar after Kosi tragedy. Yes you are right, I wish there is an especially cruel hell for the EJs to go to.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 06 Oct 2013 09:18

TS:
There is nothing wrong with being a Christian. EJism is the problem.

I do not understand what you mean by not being a part of mainstream Hinduism. They have their beliefs, their lands, their way of life. Those have survived and continue to do so for tens of centuries. Do you feel that like EJs 'mainstream' Hindus should have converted them to mainstream Hinduism killing their native cultures?

The problem is any conflict between tribes or groups is portrayed as us vs them. The same Chanakya would have suggested ran-niti for many other conflicts. Why pick on adivasis?

niran · Post by **niran** » 06 Oct 2013 09:58

TonySoprano wrote:So wikipedia is a source now? Please quote from Vyasa's Mahabharat. Try Ganguli's version if you don't have one yourself. The version you just regurgitated (which was unsourced in Wikipedia) also makes no logical sense as the bodies of Purochana and the five Nishad brothers equal six dead males and one dead female. Why would the Kaurav's think those charred remains are those of the FIVE Pandavas and their mother?

please do read the Vayasa MB, it clearly says the Bheel woman and her son were appointed as chamber maid/valet(the onree equivalent adjective in English i know) by Purochan himself, they were to spy on the pandavas and report to Purochan when the Pandavas were sound asleep, but Pandavas belief in "apana hath jagannath" prevented this spying vying reporting bizniss, Bheem hisself provided them with the finest daru of the period to keep them from their true bizniss, they died, along with Purochan and the Kauravas gave a sigh of relief coz six conspirator less is always better than six conspirator more, yes?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Oct 2013 19:58

TonySoprano wrote:There are many instances that detail the struggle and oppression of the Australoid outcastes in the Hindu epics. Not many high caste Hindus know that in the Lakshagraha incident of Mahabharata, a Nishadh (aborigine) woman and her five sons were drugged and left to be burnt alive in the place Kunti and her sons. What cold heartedness! Then we have the complete genocide of the aboriginal (possibly Mongoloid) Nagas in the infamous Khandavan forest burning where innocent animals along with the Nagas were burnt alive by Krishna and Arjuna on the orders of a Brahmin (Agni in disguise it turns out). There is the heartbreaking story of the wife of Naga Takshak being murdered by the coward Arjuna as she sacrifice herself to save her son (later killed by deceit by Arjuna in Kurukshetra war). Its worth noting that these two incidents are glossed over or sanitized by many Hindu apologists (please see the version depicted by BR Chopra for example). Eklavya's story is well known but the Hindus have manipulated into one large morality play extolling devotion to the guru. They do not even think of how such racist stories damage the psyche of former Untouchables and Adivasis--some might privately condone such things.

In fact it seems that the only noble characters other than Bhishma seem to be all Shudras: Sanjaya, Karna, Eklavya, Vidura. This then in my opinion are later interpolations added by low caste bards into the Aryan proto-Mahabharata oral tradition. This might explain the Vyasa myth.

1. Nala, a Nishada, was one of the shat-Chakravartis much before Mahabharata. He married the princes of Vidarbha (a non-Nishada).

2. Who are Nagas? Sons of Kadru. Why they became cursed? Some by their own mother for not obeying their mother's command (to hang on Uchchaisrava's tail to make it look black) and others as karma-phala (a Buddhist concept too) for deceiving Vinatva.

3. Who enslaved whom? Kadru (mother of nagas) enslaved Vinata (mother of Garuda)

4. Can two children of same father become two different races, just because their mothers are different? What if both the mothers are daughters of same parents (Daksha and Panchajani)

5. Is Karna a Dalit? He was born to Surya (Brahmin) and Kunti (Kshatriya) same as any other Pandava. Is Karna less educated? He is classmate of Pandavas and Kauravas under Drona and later Parasurama himself. In fact Karna became a King, of Anga, much before Pandavas. Duryodhana was never a king, he died as a prince.

6. Who are Nagas? Like Devas (Amaravati in current AP), they too are from South India. Like Devas they too migrated North spreading all over Bharat from north-east to north-west (Taxasila). I think in the process of separating their kingdoms later, they got the share of south India. If one sees the map of Bharat, south India appears like it is going into the ocean, hence Patala(?)

7. Virochana employed those mother and 5 sons as spies. Why same number as Pandavas? Perhaps to ensure that each Pandava and Kunti are observed 24x7. On that day of Laksha-Griha Dahanam, they were intoxicated by liquor. Yes, Pandavas used their death to cover their trace. But it is all fair in war (they were in war-mode with Kauravas). Will it be ok to Sri Tony if these dead were uppercaste people?

8. Coming to Khandava Dahanam, it was done to build a new city. Please show a city in the past or present that didn't result in replacement and death of other species. This happens even when one builds a home today, they kill all termites, snakes, bugs etc to ensure longevity of the construction. The same Khandava Dahanam story tells us maya was saved. Takshaka was saved too by another uppercaste Hindu, Indra himself. The same Takshaka later used the excuse of another Brahmin curse to assassinate (assuming these are people and not snakes etc) Parikshit.

9. Like in any time, there always exist peace mongers (peace at any cost), peace leaders (peace/war for just cause), and war mongers (war at any cost). Dharmaraja belongs to first, Sri Krishna to second and Karna/Duryodhana to the third.

10. Let us assume, for argument sake, that Vyasa Bharata was a myth. Then shouldn't we also assume the stories of Ekalavya (which was covered much in previous pages), Karna, Lakshagruha, Khandava Dahanam etc as myths?

It is a known fact, I can show you proof, that Buddhists and Jainists rewrote Mahabharata and Ramayana as some class struggle (that is why I call Charvaka-schools as Indic-leftist schools). Do you wonder why the root-sources of existing copies of MB primarily come from Andhra and Bengali schools? What happened to other sources of MB?

Today we are seeing two different attempts.

One is by Christian missionaries who are trying to usurp the Hindu philosophical knowledge, such as Upanishads and Bhagavadgita etc - I already wrote about Christian version of Purusha Sukta and Bhagavadgita in the name of Traita Marga.

Second is by the Leftists, they use Kosambi's line of argument, to usurp Hindu Puranas and epics to show them as class struggle.

I wish them good luck, for human intellect is universal. It will ask the same questions I raised above once the so-called Dalits read the real sources of MB etc. No wonder the leftist intellectuals are trying to remove the original MB, Ramayana etc from public space but keep pushing these nonsensical class-struggle version of MB stories.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Oct 2013 00:11

In Virata Parvam, we see the eternal conflict between swartham or selfishness and dhrama or doing the right think in Queen Sudeshna's episode. Sudeshna knows sending Draupadi to fetch madira from her brother Kichaka's home is certain to end in rape. So its adahrmic to send her on that mission. Yet she is afraid that Kichaka would turn on her husband and dethrone him and thus Sudeshna's family would lose out. And hence driven by her swartham she sends Draupadi to Kichaka's home.

She loses her brother Kichaka and the 105 Upa Kichakas who are the strength of the Kingdom. SHe loses her husband and her sons in the great war.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 07 Oct 2013 14:21

That Nishada woman was Purochana's sister? Source please.... Wiki article doesn't cite the original source.
I thought it was mere happenstance/karma that brought the six of them to the House of Wax.

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 07 Oct 2013 17:00

TonySoprano wrote:There are many instances that detail the struggle and oppression of the Australoid outcastes in the Hindu epics.
Eklavya's story is well known but the Hindus have manipulated into one large morality play extolling devotion to the guru. They do not even think of how such racist stories damage the psyche of former Untouchables and Adivasis--some might privately condone such things.

We keep hearing this story of Eklavya and how it was injustice.
Lets try to see things in another perspective:
DronaAcharya was teaching warcraft and weaponry skills and not language or literature.
He was a paid teacher of royalty / kingdom, and not in a free ashram open to everyone.

Eklavya, a prince of another kingdom, which was not aligned to Hastinapur, by his own admission was spying and learning weaponry without approval.
In modern times, this act would have been called spying and punishable by death.

I fail to understand what this incident has anything to do with Eklavya's caste or Guru's bias for any other student.
In fact, I believe Dronarcharya found a very wise solution - took away all the unauthorized weaponry skills, without giving a harsher punishment to a young boy.
IMHO, all other spins to this are unwarranted.

member_24042 · Post by **member_24042** » 07 Oct 2013 17:57

A Deshmukh wrote:
TonySoprano wrote:There are many instances that detail the struggle and oppression of the Australoid outcastes in the Hindu epics.
Eklavya's story is well known but the Hindus have manipulated into one large morality play extolling devotion to the guru. They do not even think of how such racist stories damage the psyche of former Untouchables and Adivasis--some might privately condone such things.
We keep hearing this story of Eklavya and how it was injustice.
Lets try to see things in another perspective:
DronaAcharya was teaching warcraft and weaponry skills and not language or literature.
He was a paid teacher of royalty / kingdom, and not in a free ashram open to everyone.

Eklavya, a prince of another kingdom, which was not aligned to Hastinapur, by his own admission was spying and learning weaponry without approval.
In modern times, this act would have been called spying and punishable by death.

I fail to understand what this incident has anything to do with Eklavya's caste or Guru's bias for any other student.
In fact, I believe Dronarcharya found a very wise solution - took away all the unauthorized weaponry skills, without giving a harsher punishment to a young boy.
IMHO, all other spins to this are unwarranted.

You proved my case in point, thanks for being so honest.