Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Sep 2013 06:45

Thank you Eric Leiderman and Ajay Sharma.

RahulM, it is unlikely to fall back on submarine. In swim-out, it definitely won't. In push-out it will not come back vertically. But, accidents can happen and accidental detonations, misfires etc can happen.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 30 Sep 2013 08:20

Interceptor missile test in the offing
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Hyd ... epage=true

The first phase of the defence system can destroy enemy missiles with a range of up to 2,000 km

As part of a bid to secure major cities of the country from external attacks, India’s missile technologists will, for the first time ever, conduct a crucial, high-altitude interceptor missile test in the exo-atmosphere. The exercise is part of the developmental trials for the first-phase of the Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) system, designed to tackle incoming enemy missiles with a range of up to 2,000 km. India plans to deploy in two phases a home-grown, two-tiered (interception in endo and exo-atmosphere) BMD system to protect major cities.

First phase
In the first phase, the BMD system seeks to intercept and destroy incoming enemy ballistic missiles with a range of up to 2,000 km. The second phase would aim at targeting missiles with a higher range of 2,000-5,000 km. The first-ever high-altitude interception at around 125-140 km has been proposed, missile scientists at the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) said. Critical simulation tests were being carried out by scientists in the run-up to the major trial, to be held in the last week of November.

How it functions
Both the interceptor missile, the PDV, and the target missile would be totally new, two-stage missiles and equipped with advanced technologies. Once the target missile is launched from a ship, the attacker missile, carrying a dual seeker, would try to waylay the incoming missile, destroy it in a “hit-to-kill” mission. Both missiles would be travelling at a speed of around 1500 metres per second at the time of interception. However, one of the challenges during the trial, the scientists said, would be for the interceptor to discriminate between the booster and the payload once the first stage of the target missile gets separated.

Earlier, DRDO missile technologists have carried out exo-atmospheric interception at altitudes of 47 km and 80 km. So far, six of the seven interceptor missile tests conducted by DRDO have been successful. While two were in exo-atmosphere, the remaining took place in endo-atmosphere (above an altitude of 50 km). DRDO scientists said that while endo-atmospheric interception had been validated in earlier tests, some more trials needed to be conducted before deploying the first phase of BMD system. They said the design of the interceptor missile for the second phase had been completed and the trials would be held next year.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 01 Oct 2013 19:48

Induction of Akash SAM missile to be done soon

The Akash Surface to Air Missile (SAM), a 30-km range missile, was a major attraction at the Open Day organised ahead of the 81st anniversary of IAF on October 8. The missile is being inducted at the Indian Air Force station in Lohegaon.

Group Captain A Bhadra, Chief Operation Officer of 2 Wing Air Force Station, Lohegaon, said that the procedure of induction of the SAM is expected to be completed within a month or two. The fully indigenous missile system is expected to replace the existing Russian Pechora SAM system. The IAF station is the second to get this cover after Gwalior. The Akash squadron in Pune has been named Vajra.

The AD system is intended for area defence of the Akash weapon system and is meant for the defence of high value vulnerable points against low-level threats. Bhadra said, "The electronic systems of Akash need to be integrated and are located at different locations. They need to be linked by cable. The HQ (of the system) is located at one point while the flights are located at other points. That (integration) work is going on and is likely to take some time."

The integration of Akash SAM system has been done by DRDL, Hyderabad. Three DRDO laboratories in the city too have contributed to the development of the missile. While the launcher has been developed by the Research and Development Establishment (R&DE) in Dighi, the warhead has been developed by the Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE). The High Energy Materials Research Laboratory developed the propellant. The all-terrain weapon system can simultaneously engage several air targets in fully automated operations mode.

The missile system underwent user trials in 2007 and the IAF had placed an order for eight Akash Missile Squadrons, the second of which is inducted in the city after Gwalior. The system will also be deployed at forward air bases in the Northeast.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 01 Oct 2013 20:58

^^^

IAF has ordered 8 squadrons of AKASH out of which the 2 (gwalior - done and now pune) are sanctioned. the rest 6 will come in the northeast/east - probably Chabua, Tezpur, kalaikunda will get these apart from high value targets.

IA orders are separate.

so good going AKASH.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Oct 2013 21:36

Is the work on for Akash mk2?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 01 Oct 2013 22:41

30 KMS akash ? That is a 5 KM increase from their common commentary of 25KM range. ~20% increase is not bad.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 02 Oct 2013 19:28

Nuclear realities
Shankar Roychowdhury
http://www.asianage.com/columnists/nucl ... lities-600

The significance of the second test on September 15, 2013, of India’s improved Agni-V intermediate range ballistic missile (IRBM) from Wheeler Island test range, off the coast of Orissa, has to be perceived against the background of intensifying Sino-Indian rivalry, which came to a head most recently in the Chinese intrusions and ensuing face-off at Raki Nala in Ladakh. With a reported range of 5,500 kms, Agni-V will possess adequate strike distance to target value targets on the Chinese mainland from launch sites based in the centre of the Indian landmass, a payload of strategic deterrence which will provide some quantum of comfort to Indian planners within the doctrine of second strike mode mandated by national policy. When fully in operational service, complete with ancillaries and support systems, Agni-V will be the credible “threat-in-being” component in India’s nuclear triad which was not available earlier. India’s nuclear doctrine has consciously adopted a “no first use” policy, which has been emphasised right from the inception of the country’s nuclear weapons programme, but the requisite nuclear triad remained shortlegged and incomplete in the absence of a viable land-based component. With Agni-V this deficiency can be considered to have been made up.

There has been speculation about Surya, as a follow-on to Agni-V, a super missile in the intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) category with a range of 10,000 kms and more. Given the country’s proven scientific and technological capabilities, India is quite capable of developing such a missile, though indigenous production, especially in the area of quality control, still seems to be somewhat of an Achilles’ heel, especially in government facilities in which large funds have been invested. However, the strategic decision-making infrastructure to match the country’s geopolitical ambitions still remains inadequate.

Is the Agni-V adequate for the short/middle term future envisaged for the country? Or does Surya still remain the next logical step?
India’s geographic neighbourhood and geopolitical environment, including the contiguous Indian Ocean Region, remains in an almost permanent state of semi-equilibrium, an uneasy, edgy environment through which run the critical lines of commerce and communications sustaining the world’s economy, particularly the supertanker traffic connecting the energy sources of West Asian and Gulf countries to the consumer and industrial economies of the rest of the world.

Critical tanker traffic between the Gulf states and the rest of the world maintains the bulk of oil supply. The presence and intermittent transit of nuclear-propelled warships, both surface and submarine, under various flags through these waters has not helped matters because their armed status as possible nuclear weapons carriers has never been acknowledged or clarified. Though efforts have been made by littoral countries to declare the Indian Ocean as a nuclear-free “Zone of Peace”, these have not been particularly successful because the countries of the region do not possess the capability to enforce such decisions. India (at very long last) now possesses a missile capability long sought-after, and the scales between China and India are now more evenly balanced, even if only marginally so, because numbers and capabilities still tilt markedly towards China.

However, in the first flush of euphoria, India and its public opinion must not lose sight of the fact that it is early days yet, and still a long haul before India owns a credible ICBM force. It is to India’s good fortune that its missile and nuclear establishments are amongst the more efficient of the country’s systems.

The successful test of the Agni-V missile has naturally invoked a feeling of immense satisfaction and national pride, which will undoubtedly feed into the public environment building up prior to the general elections due in India in 2014. All estimates of the public mood (insofar it can ever be estimated) point to the likelihood of a very bitterly contested election. Political handlers and minders, as well as electoral officials and state administrations, will have their work cut out to prevent deterioration of the situation
into crudely jingoistic rhetoric by ill-informed and often ill-educated political campaign workers as seen in Muzaffarnagar. Against these approaching political storm clouds, the success of Agni-V holds its own political significance, if it can be soberly projected as an encouraging step forward on a long road, with distances yet to be covered.

The almost simultaneous successful launch near Goa on May 13 of the highly manoeuvrable Brahmos supersonic cruise missile, a result of Indian-Russian cooperation, did not attract as much attention. Brahmos, handy both as a “carrier-buster”, as also a land attack missile, is a completely different tool but for an interlinked job. Both Agni-V and Brahmos are technologically on par — the former a true strategic weapon, the latter a dual-purpose tactical weapons — and both are capable of carrying a variety of “end products”, nuclear as well as conventional. Mating Agni-V with a conventional warhead would obviously be laughable, but the same may not hold true in reverse. Brahmos is primarily designed as a conventional weapon, is nuclear capable, and requires a custom-designed nuclear warhead for its various configurations. It is hoped that this is in hand.

Advanced weapons like Agni-II, Agni-V and now Brahmos, as also nuclear powered submarines of the Arihant class with matching payloads of nuclear capable, submarine launched missiles like the Dhanush K-15, are now realities in the weapons inventories of all three services. While public interest is focused on strategic weapons, not much interest is shown in the matching command and control structures for their employment. The Strategic Forces Command is not a fully matured system yet and periodically emerges for debate like a low lying rock during ebb tide, to disappear again below the high-water mark as the tide comes in.
India is in the big boys club now, and must carry its own big stick.

The writer is a former Chief of Army Staff and a former member of Parliament

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 02 Oct 2013 19:31

Any timeline/news update for the upcoming Agni IV test?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Oct 2013 21:04

Cybaru wrote:30 KMS akash ? That is a 5 KM increase from their common commentary of 25KM range. ~20% increase is not bad.

Slant range has been mentioned as 30 km by some other reputable sources as well, including Dr Prahlad (Project Director).

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Oct 2013 21:16

pragnya wrote:^^^

IAF has ordered 8 squadrons of AKASH out of which the 2 (gwalior - done and now pune) are sanctioned. the rest 6 will come in the northeast/east - probably Chabua, Tezpur, kalaikunda will get these apart from high value targets.

IA orders are separate.

so good going AKASH.

Overall, the IAF has 30 squadrons of Pechora with 60 firing units aka flights. The Akash replaces 8 of those. The MRSAM will replace 9 squadrons/ 18 Firing Units.
That leaves another 13 to go. So there is ample space for more Akash (MK2 presumably) and MRSAM squadrons (say 4 each), and even a few of those VLR SAMs mentioned by Shri Chander recently (5 sq).

The SpyDer SR orders are for 18 "systems" (http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories158.htm) assuming that these are 18 firing unit/flights, that translates to 9 squadrons. Presumably, being 15km systems, they will ultimately be counted as replacements for the OSA-AK inventory.

It'd be interesting to see who operates the BMD systems. Will these be handled by IAF alone (which seems logical), integrated with IACCS/ADC&RS(IA) but as part of a new requirement and raising? That would be the logical thing to do.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 02 Oct 2013 21:21

Can't the Pachora missiles and OSA-AK be put in brand new boats or movable platforms. Thinking out of box.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Oct 2013 21:27

The IAF did make its Pechora batteries mobile (truck mounted launchers, radars IIRC). OSA-AK is already mobile. The problem is both are pretty obsolete and will soon be reaching end of their usable life despite upgrades. If you search around the IAF site, its clear that the IAF did upgrade its Pechoras - they have optical guidance as well.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 02 Oct 2013 21:59

Karan M wrote:
pragnya wrote:^^^

IAF has ordered 8 squadrons of AKASH out of which the 2 (gwalior - done and now pune) are sanctioned. the rest 6 will come in the northeast/east - probably Chabua, Tezpur, kalaikunda will get these apart from high value targets.

IA orders are separate.

so good going AKASH.
Overall, the IAF has 30 squadrons of Pechora with 60 firing units aka flights. The Akash replaces 8 of those. The MRSAM will replace 9 squadrons/ 18 Firing Units.
That leaves another 13 to go. So there is ample space for more Akash (MK2 presumably) and MRSAM squadrons (say 4 each), and even a few of those VLR SAMs mentioned by Shri Chander recently (5 sq).

The SpyDer SR orders are for 18 "systems" (http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories158.htm) assuming that these are 18 firing unit/flights, that translates to 9 squadrons. Presumably, being 15km systems, they will ultimately be counted as replacements for the OSA-AK inventory.

It'd be interesting to see who operates the BMD systems. Will these be handled by IAF alone (which seems logical), integrated with IACCS/ADC&RS(IA) but as part of a new requirement and raising? That would be the logical thing to do.

Karan M,

IIRC IAF has been in favour of dual layered AD as mentioned in the India Strategic link. Spyder will cater to the LLQRM part while Akash and MRSAM will cater to the rest. IMO the Spyders most probably will be at select bases. so i think 13 more sq that you mentioned stands. so Akash will get further orders for sure post induction of the 8 on order.

btw any idea Spyders have been inducted?? they were supposed to be delivered by aug 2012!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Oct 2013 22:06

There was a delay with SpyDer deliveries, iirc the first few were set to arrive this year.
But still orders placed, inductions underway. Some + for IAF SAMs.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 02 Oct 2013 23:38

Karan M wrote:The IAF did make its Pechora batteries mobile (truck mounted launchers, radars IIRC). OSA-AK is already mobile. The problem is both are pretty obsolete and will soon be reaching end of their usable life despite upgrades. If you search around the IAF site, its clear that the IAF did upgrade its Pechoras - they have optical guidance as well.

I do not think that IAF / IA / Ixyz has any mobile Pechora batteries. The launchers are fixed. The truck are used probably to move the missles around the base / launcher

K

By IAF site do you mean a website or a physical IAF site i.e. an air base, missile base ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Oct 2013 23:47

As I recall, the IAF does have these on trucks, so they were not just transporters.

IAF launcher
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 718487.JPG

The Zil launcher from the side Peruvian AF
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... P_2006.JPG

------

Wiki ref:
"The S-125 is somewhat mobile, an improvement over the S-75 system. The missiles are typically deployed on fixed turrets containing two or four but can be carried ready-to-fire on ZIL trucks in pairs. Reloading the fixed launchers takes a few minutes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-125_Neva/Pechora#Missile

___________________

By site I meant the IAF website. They had a list of systems they wanted to indigenize, source local spares for. These included an optical guidance system for the Pechora. I would never post anything that is not already public.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Oct 2013 07:13

The IAF PICHORA is mounted on a loader vehicle. These have been shown on Republic day parade since ages. The loader backs physically into the launcher, and then drives away, the loading is complete. It is to make sure that the TAT is reduced to a minimum.

Russian's have demonstrated mobile ubgrades, but IAF has not taken tem.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Oct 2013 08:37

Makes sense.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Oct 2013 10:51

Matches what Pratyush and Kersi said:
http://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_r ... ns_uk.html

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 03 Oct 2013 17:40

Karan M ji, Does India operate S-300 Surface to Air missile? Many earlier news reports state that India bought certain no. of these missiles in the 90's. Wonder if it is the truth.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 03 Oct 2013 20:41

darshhan wrote:Karan M ji, Does India operate S-300 Surface to Air missile? Many earlier news reports state that India bought certain no. of these missiles in the 90's. Wonder if it is the truth.

Yes there have been a lot of reports but as usual there is no official confirmation. I have been hearing these reports form the Op Parakaram days. Nor have there have been any pics.

IAF is using the the Russian 36D6 / ST 68 early warning radars. These radars have been associated with the S 300 SAM systems. So maybe some DDM/BR Member put two and two together to say that India has S 300.

The truth is I DO NOT KNOW !!!!

Kersi

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Oct 2013 22:17

Darshhan ji, there have been umpteen speculative reports about the S-300 procurement by India. While it is possible that India may have procured a few systems covertly to buttress/protect strategic targets, I consider it very unlikely for the following reasons:

1. Till date not a single credible source has mentioned an actual procurement.
2. Indian politico-babus often go public about such large procurements. Even Chakra lease or other strategic programs are not exempt. A S-300 is small fry in comparison.
3. If it had been procured, IAF would have definitely asked for a few more as Indian economy opened up, unless it was a lemon. No such reports either.
4. No public reports from Russian side of exports to India as well (that I know of)
5. S-300 was reportedly evaluated by India in Russia after which we decided to develop our own system (BMD) which indicates we evaluated the S-300 VM (as versus early PMU variants which had very limited ABM capabilities). Hence its possible that this became a purchased S-3XX story.

All in all while its possible that India did procure S-3XX systems, its just not very probable and that is what I'd state.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 04 Oct 2013 08:04

Nuclear effects of Agni-V
-By Bharat karnad
newindianexpress.com/opinion/Nuclear-effects-of-Agni-V/2013/10/04/article1817217.ece

The Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL), Hyderabad, along with the other project in mission-mode, Advanced Technology Vehicle (the nuclear-powered ballistic missile-firing Arihant submarine, SSBN), are the two jewels in the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) crown. Under high-class chiefs R N Agarwal, Avinash Chander (recently promoted to head DRDO), and now G K Sekharan, ASL has rescued DRDO’s reputation, of course. But it has, with the second launch of the Agni-V intermediate range ballistic missile on September 16, also saved the credibility of India’s strategic deterrent with thermonuclear pretensions from being completely eroded.

But, first, why is India’s claim to thermonuclear status mere pretence? Well, because, Dr R Chidambaram, the one-time chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission and, for the last decade, adviser on science and technology to the PM, despite being a scientist doesn’t believe in collecting empirical data! Along with strategic enclave stalwarts like the late K Subrahmanyam and the school of thought the latter spawned, he urged the Narasimha Rao government in the mid-90s, for instance, to sign the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, arguing that the data collected from the single 1974 8-12 kiloton (KT) nuclear test was quite enough for the country to have an adequate deterrent and that India need never test again.

After the BJP government ordered the 1998 Shakti-series of nuclear tests anyway, and consistent with his previous advocacy, Chidambaram averred that the obvious malfunctioning of the thermonuclear weapon design tested in 1998 notwithstanding, India can rectify the flawed design and even update the weapons inventory by simply using computer simulation. By this standard, the Indian Air Force ought to operate combat aircraft entirely computer designed but never test-flown, and the army to induct an artillery piece that came out of a computer-assisted design shop but not test-fired. His unexplained and incomprehensible antipathy to nuclear testing has made a mockery of the country’s strategic wherewithal. On this issue, however, it is difficult to know where Chidambaram’s counsel ends and prime minister Manmohan Singh’s inclination to stick with the “no testing” central predicate of the nuclear deal with the US, begins.

Consider this: China has conducted over 80 tests to India’s six tests in all. It has advanced technology such as inertial confinement fusion (to replicate thermonuclear explosions in miniature) and a Dual-Axis Radiographic Hydrodynamic Testing facility (to simulate and study the implosion of an atom bomb triggering the combustion of the thermonuclear fuel), which India lacks. Chinese computing speeds will reach some 100 petaflops (million-billion functions per second) by 2015 while Indian super computers at present are at the 250 terraflop (trillion functions per second) level. With all these advantages, China has embarked on a new round of nuclear arsenal modernisation and US weapons designers have warned that without new tests the performance of American nuclear arms cannot be guaranteed. New Delhi, in contrast, has all but sworn off nuclear testing, whence its boast of the Indian deterrent featuring high-yield thermonuclear weapons in the 125KT-275KT categories risks an enemy calling India’s bluff and borders on foolhardiness. So, that’s the problem: An Indian 275KT fusion bomb may, by fluke, reach the full yield or, as is more likely, produce yields anywhere between the high figure and the fission trigger level of 20KT! It’s this appalling uncertainty about the effects of the Indian thermonuclear weapons that’s created a real operational dilemma for the Strategic Forces Command.

The ASL retrieved this intolerable deterrence situation somewhat with the accurate, lightweight, Agni-V missile. This Agni will eventually be all-composite, including the casing and rocket motors made of Kevlar-carbon-carbon, Guidance on Chip for terminal accuracy, and distributed communications nodes through the length of the missile to minimise wiring. As the two tests of this missile have proved, using the Russian Glonass GPS and the on-board inertial guidance system and ring laser gyroscope, 15-20 meter CEP (circular error probable — a measure of accuracy) at 5,500km range has been achieved. Moreover, armed with 4-8 MIRV (Multiple Independently-targetable Re-entry Vehicles) warheads — a technology permitting a single missile to carry multiple bombs for dispersed targeting that has been a “screwdriver’s turn away” from being test-ready but whose testing has not been approved by Manmohan Singh, the Agni-V range can be extended to intercontinental distances.

In any case, even before this precision targeting capability was proved, official strategists trying to justify the test-moratorium began claiming that Agni missiles with single or MIRVed 20KT fission warheads will be just as daunting for any adversary, and that the strategic credibility and clout of India’s deterrent is, therefore, not in doubt. MIRVed Agni missiles do afford the strategic forces certainty of impact and versatility but 20KT warheads are not prime dissuaders.

Missile accuracy at extreme range is fine but it is only the high-yield, preferably, high-yield thermonuclear armaments that really matter. The sheer scale of destruction promised by a single incoming megaton (MT)-warheaded missile can be guaranteed to induce the worst sort of dread in, and impose immense psychological stress and pressure on, the adversary state’s leadership, something the relatively small yield 20KT bomb simply cannot do. In any test of wills, the country armed with the 20KT weapons will fold before a state with MT weapons, call off the confrontation and, whatever is at stake, accept a compromise on the former’s terms.

Then again, the Indian government has little understanding of conventional and, even less, nuclear deterrence when dealing with a powerful foe. In fact, India is so self-damagingly Pakistan-fixated on both counts it does not see the folly of training strategic weapons on a tactical-level threat. India is also an exception to the rule of nuclear weapons states nursing high-yield fusion arsenals. The standard issue warheads for the long range Dong Feng missiles being one megaton or 3.3MT, China can deter America. Weak-kneed Indian governments have not shown the gumption to resume thermonuclear testing to obtain a host of safe, proven, and reliable fusion weapons including the MT type to deter China.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Oct 2013 16:53

India Pursues Indigenous ATGM Amid Javelin Talks

NEW DELHI — India has begun working on a homemade, man-portable anti-tank guided missile (ATGM), despite a US proposal to co-produce the Javelin ATGM.

Defence Ministry sources said the homemade project — a third generation Nag missile — is unlikely to derail the proposed Javelin deal, which is in only the preliminary stages of negotiation with the US. A scientist with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) claimed the Nag is lighter than the Javelin.

In what one US Embassy diplomat in India described as a groundbreaking initiative in India’s ties with Washington, US Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carter has proposed that India co-develop — rather than merely buy — the Javelin missile.

The Indian Army has a pressing demand for more than 20,000 third generation man-portable ATGMs, and all attempts to procure them from overseas over the past eight years has yielded no results.

Israel’s offer of its Spike ATGM was rejected in 2007 because it was the only vendor to respond to the tender. The US, meanwhile, refused to transfer technology after a proposal to buy the Javelin on a government-to-government basis. Indian MoD sources said that last year, the US refused to sell Javelin in adequate numbers to India due to “ international strategic and geopolitical considerations.”

The full details of Washington’s latest Javelin proposal have not been released, but MoD sources said the US wants to sell around 6,000 units within one year of the signing of the contract. In the future, the US would explore co-production of the Javelin and, at a later stage, work on the co-development of an ATGM tailor-made for India.{Perhaps the new willingness may be to offset the huge impending weapons transfer to Pakis and its optics in India}

The US would also transfer Javelin technology, including the manufacture of the warhead, rocket motor, propellant, guidance and seeker, but no algorithms for guidance, which an Indian Army official said is the core to any guidance system.{Desi guidance algo is top class if we go by DRDO folks. Perhaps we can replace the whole guidance algo with our own}

A team from Raytheon and Lockheed Martin has briefed the Indian MoD on the possibilities to be explored in the Javelin project, Indian MoD sources said.

A Lockheed Martin executive said Javelin is better than any other man-portable ATGM because it is ejected non-explosively, which is useful to the Indian Army in higher terrain. The executive, however, declined to discuss details of Carter’s proposal.

DRDO, meanwhile, has begun work on the homemade Nag missile, which would weigh only 16 kilograms compared to Javelin’s 26 kilograms, the DRDO scientist claimed.

The man-portable version of the Nag missile is simpler than the vehicle-mounted version and, as such, could be developed in the next three years, the scientist said.{Prototype to production is where most project schedules derail and most projects fail}

An Indian Army official said everyone, including DRDO, would be happy to get Javelin as nearly 25 years of work on the Nag ATGM has yet to result in a mature, third generation ATGM.

The Indian Army uses second generation, French-made Milan and Russian-made Konkurs ATGMs, which have a range of less than 2,000 meters.

So the proposal is import 6K outright .. followed by tot .. followed by local buy .. followed by co-development. I can live with that provided 6K does not include tot cost.

Tot cost can be bundled with local production provided tot is full and without any string attached .. except perhaps export of the product or of any subsystems .. however we should be free to do whatever we like with its derivatives.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 04 Oct 2013 18:28

dinesha wrote:Nuclear effects of Agni-V
-By Bharat karnad
newindianexpress.com/opinion/Nuclear-effects-of-Agni-V/2013/10/04/article1817217.ece

India could go ahead test TNWs right away without bothering about repurcussions from UN or US. No one can stop us, sanctions be damned. But the US-China combine will ensure that TNW tech will somehow find its way to pak, just as fission nuke tech did, after our 1974 test. And India cannot stop this. I think pak with TNW tech is a much more scarier than pak with a sub 10 kt fission tech. Wonder why BK doesn't think this way, while unnecessarily blaming the govt.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Oct 2013 20:09

A few comments;

- Javelin offer might be a sop for impending arms transfers to TSP prior to 2014 exeunt from Afghanistan. Note bulk of it is future promise with minuscule present deliveries. Future is hinged on good behavior vis a vis TSP's fortunes. Besides no one can be certain what a future US regime will see is its interests at that time and cut off the future deliveries.

- DRDO developing their own ATGM is a necessary skills up-gradation as the Nag was firs developed as part of the original 1984 IGMP. So most of the ATGM designers could be close to retirement and new crop of designers need to hone their skills in this vital area.
- BK seems to have talked to ex-members and got the meaning of the low CEP for current payloads. If the CEP were high then its another thing! I did state this in the AV test thread. Having said that BK needs to reflect on the heavy weight and what does it mean in terms of its design. And sit down with the oriiginal team and get to be familiar with the design.
- Good call on the uncertainty between those two numbers.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Oct 2013 20:51

crosspost
----------------
India’s Missile Modernization Beyond Minimum Deterrence

Every time India test-launches a new ballistic missile, officials from the defense industry go giddy about the next missile, which they say will be bigger, more accurate, fly longer, and carry more nuclear warheads.

<snip>

If so, it is bad news for South Asia. The combination of multiple warheads, increased accuracy, and drastically reduced launch time would indicate that India is gradually designing its way of out its so-called minimum deterrence doctrine towards a more capable nuclear posture.

This would almost certainly trigger counter-steps in Pakistan and China, developments that would decrease Indian security. And if China were to deploy multiple warheads on its missiles, it could even impede future reductions of U.S. and Russian nuclear forces.

<snip>

Conclusions and Recommendations

Statements made by Indian defense officials over the past few years about increasing the payload, responsiveness, and accuracy of nuclear ballistic missiles are worrisome signs that India may be designing its way out of its minimum deterrence posture towards one with more warfighting-like capabilities.

This includes development of multiple-warhead capability to move India’s nuclear missiles beyond “a defense weapon” to “a force multiplier” that can strike more targets with each missile. It includes upgrading launchers to “drastically” shorten the launch-time to “minutes.” And it includes increasing the accuracy of the reentry vehicles to more effectively strike their targets.

Where these requirements come from and who sets them is anyone’s guess, but they demonstrate a need for the Indian government to constrain its weapons designers and more clearly reaffirm its adherence to a minimum deterrence doctrine. Not only does the combination of multiple warheads, increased accuracy, and quick-launch capability challenge the credibility of minimum deterrence. It also sends all the wrong signals about India’s intensions and will almost inevitably trigger weapons developments in the nuclear postures of India’s neighbors – developments that would decrease Indian security and that of the whole region.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 04 Oct 2013 20:57

About increased accuracy of missile, does it not justify quicker production to have nuclear triads ASAP?

Also how does MIRV affect delivery by AIF fighter jets? There are videos of aircraft delivered nukes with detonation if I remember correctly. How does missile improvements aid that? The chatter of smaller warheads doesn't help there. In scenario of missile delivered nukes is there a video of detonation or even for MIRV? Have seen videos of MIRV tests but not detonation.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Oct 2013 21:48

Such videos will be classified.
India did release one Agni I fuze functioning after re-entry.

From an estimate of the height one can determine an estimate of the notional yield and the strategy.

Hence usually its not released.

kit · Post by **kit** » 05 Oct 2013 03:06

dinesha wrote:Nuclear effects of Agni-V
-By Bharat karnad
newindianexpress.com/opinion/Nuclear-effects-of-Agni-V/2013/10/04/article1817217.ece
The Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL), Hyderabad, along with the other project in mission-mode, Advanced Technology Vehicle (the nuclear-powered ballistic missile-firing Arihant submarine, SSBN), are the two jewels in the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) crown. Under high-class chiefs R N Agarwal, Avinash Chander (recently promoted to head DRDO), and now G K Sekharan, ASL has rescued DRDO’s reputation, of course. But it has, with the second launch of the Agni-V intermediate range ballistic missile on September 16, also saved the credibility of India’s strategic deterrent with thermonuclear pretensions from being completely eroded.

But, first, why is India’s claim to thermonuclear status mere pretence? Well, because, Dr R Chidambaram, the one-time chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission and, for the last decade, adviser on science and technology to the PM, despite being a scientist doesn’t believe in collecting empirical data! Along with strategic enclave stalwarts like the late K Subrahmanyam and the school of thought the latter spawned, he urged the Narasimha Rao government in the mid-90s, for instance, to sign the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, arguing that the data collected from the single 1974 8-12 kiloton (KT) nuclear test was quite enough for the country to have an adequate deterrent and that India need never test again.

After the BJP government ordered the 1998 Shakti-series of nuclear tests anyway, and consistent with his previous advocacy, Chidambaram averred that the obvious malfunctioning of the thermonuclear weapon design tested in 1998 notwithstanding, India can rectify the flawed design and even update the weapons inventory by simply using computer simulation. By this standard, the Indian Air Force ought to operate combat aircraft entirely computer designed but never test-flown, and the army to induct an artillery piece that came out of a computer-assisted design shop but not test-fired. His unexplained and incomprehensible antipathy to nuclear testing has made a mockery of the country’s strategic wherewithal. On this issue, however, it is difficult to know where Chidambaram’s counsel ends and prime minister Manmohan Singh’s inclination to stick with the “no testing” central predicate of the nuclear deal with the US, begins.

Consider this: China has conducted over 80 tests to India’s six tests in all. It has advanced technology such as inertial confinement fusion (to replicate thermonuclear explosions in miniature) and a Dual-Axis Radiographic Hydrodynamic Testing facility (to simulate and study the implosion of an atom bomb triggering the combustion of the thermonuclear fuel), which India lacks. Chinese computing speeds will reach some 100 petaflops (million-billion functions per second) by 2015 while Indian super computers at present are at the 250 terraflop (trillion functions per second) level. With all these advantages, China has embarked on a new round of nuclear arsenal modernisation and US weapons designers have warned that without new tests the performance of American nuclear arms cannot be guaranteed. New Delhi, in contrast, has all but sworn off nuclear testing, whence its boast of the Indian deterrent featuring high-yield thermonuclear weapons in the 125KT-275KT categories risks an enemy calling India’s bluff and borders on foolhardiness. So, that’s the problem: An Indian 275KT fusion bomb may, by fluke, reach the full yield or, as is more likely, produce yields anywhere between the high figure and the fission trigger level of 20KT! It’s this appalling uncertainty about the effects of the Indian thermonuclear weapons that’s created a real operational dilemma for the Strategic Forces Command.

The ASL retrieved this intolerable deterrence situation somewhat with the accurate, lightweight, Agni-V missile. This Agni will eventually be all-composite, including the casing and rocket motors made of Kevlar-carbon-carbon, Guidance on Chip for terminal accuracy, and distributed communications nodes through the length of the missile to minimise wiring. As the two tests of this missile have proved, using the Russian Glonass GPS and the on-board inertial guidance system and ring laser gyroscope, 15-20 meter CEP (circular error probable — a measure of accuracy) at 5,500km range has been achieved. Moreover, armed with 4-8 MIRV (Multiple Independently-targetable Re-entry Vehicles) warheads — a technology permitting a single missile to carry multiple bombs for dispersed targeting that has been a “screwdriver’s turn away” from being test-ready but whose testing has not been approved by Manmohan Singh, the Agni-V range can be extended to intercontinental distances.

In any case, even before this precision targeting capability was proved, official strategists trying to justify the test-moratorium began claiming that Agni missiles with single or MIRVed 20KT fission warheads will be just as daunting for any adversary, and that the strategic credibility and clout of India’s deterrent is, therefore, not in doubt. MIRVed Agni missiles do afford the strategic forces certainty of impact and versatility but 20KT warheads are not prime dissuaders.

Missile accuracy at extreme range is fine but it is only the high-yield, preferably, high-yield thermonuclear armaments that really matter. The sheer scale of destruction promised by a single incoming megaton (MT)-warheaded missile can be guaranteed to induce the worst sort of dread in, and impose immense psychological stress and pressure on, the adversary state’s leadership, something the relatively small yield 20KT bomb simply cannot do. In any test of wills, the country armed with the 20KT weapons will fold before a state with MT weapons, call off the confrontation and, whatever is at stake, accept a compromise on the former’s terms.

Then again, the Indian government has little understanding of conventional and, even less, nuclear deterrence when dealing with a powerful foe. In fact, India is so self-damagingly Pakistan-fixated on both counts it does not see the folly of training strategic weapons on a tactical-level threat. India is also an exception to the rule of nuclear weapons states nursing high-yield fusion arsenals. The standard issue warheads for the long range Dong Feng missiles being one megaton or 3.3MT, China can deter America. Weak-kneed Indian governments have not shown the gumption to resume thermonuclear testing to obtain a host of safe, proven, and reliable fusion weapons including the MT type to deter China.

Seems like karnad is voicing exactly my same concern in an earlier post..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Oct 2013 03:59

And what exactly is that?

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 05 Oct 2013 10:35

Seems he is saying that some of nukes may not explode with expected yield. Just like divine weapons of Karnataka. Some gurus need tks explain. I don't have much faith in newspapers.

kit · Post by **kit** » 05 Oct 2013 16:48

ramana wrote:And what exactly is that?

the credibility of India's nuclear arsenal in delivering a second strike capability as well as capability to design new generation weapon/warhead . also the old question about fusion bomb capability is very much there. but OT ?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 05 Oct 2013 20:16

MIRV as it is has no connection to aircraft delivered nukes. To generalize MIRV accuracy for any other way is like assuming a team of aircrafts doing acrobatics to reach target then drop and run in similar fashion. Isn't it absurd to generalize that way.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Oct 2013 20:43

This is what I believe happened:
1. The H-bomb test was a fizzle
2. ABV and the Netas visiting the site with those huge cracks was actually the Fission test site - the second one of the three.
3. BARC / DRDO have made corrections to the design, and have other designs. It is possible the designs/corrections may have been peer reviewed by videshis.
But the corrections made are untested in the field. The "Fusion" bomb yield may just be what its primary generates - at least that part one can be sure of - as demonstrated even during Pokharan - 2.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 05 Oct 2013 21:04

Gagan wrote:This is what I believe happened:
1. The H-bomb test was a fizzle
2. ABV and the Netas visiting the site with those huge cracks was actually the Fission test site - the second one of the three.
3. BARC / DRDO have made corrections to the design, and have other designs. It is possible the designs/corrections may have been peer reviewed by videshis.
But the corrections made are untested in the field. The "Fusion" bomb yield may just be what its primary generates - at least that part one can be sure of - as demonstrated even during Pokharan - 2.

Seems to be the most plausible scenario. Only way we'll find out is when the Buddha smiles again

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 05 Oct 2013 21:05

vishvak wrote:About increased accuracy of missile, does it not justify quicker production to have nuclear triads ASAP?

Also how does MIRV affect delivery by AIF fighter jets? There are videos of aircraft delivered nukes with detonation if I remember correctly. How does missile improvements aid that? The chatter of smaller warheads doesn't help there. In scenario of missile delivered nukes is there a video of detonation or even for MIRV? Have seen videos of MIRV tests but not detonation.

this is the closest i could find

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Oct 2013 21:08

^^^
I don't understand why we keep returning to fizzel vs sizzel debate. Cause, a cityhitwith a 45 ktbomb is just as dead as one hit by 1mt bomb.

Furthermore, not many military targets can have a 45 kt bomb explode less than 100 meters, from it and survive.

Why do we keep returning to it.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 05 Oct 2013 22:37

^^
Irrespective of facts, fizzle vs sizzle debate is currently required.
Its a good reason to perform repeated nuclear tests - and if we do them we would have reached a stage where we are not anymore squeamish about the rest of the world's outrage on our nuclear tests( refer our regular missile tests). Which will signal our determination to use-deploy them and irreversible arrival to the nuclear club.

No cuntry in the rest of the world should think of expressing their "concern" anymore on our latest round of tests. Our tests should be so common that it will pass off as a routine matter - just as in the case of our missile tests.
Why the eff should anyone express outrage when we conduct our own tests in our own territory hain ji?
Its not that like France we are going into pacific to messup some puny nations fishing waters...

And no one should be having second thoughts about our capabilities - whether its regarding miniaturization of warheads, neutron bombs, boosted fission, fusion, suitcase bomb, dirty(salted) bombs,sub kiloton bombs, nuclear torpedos,nuclear ABM,pure fusion bombs (will be very useful in future in repelling an american or chinese invasion on our mainland). Can anyone in scientific establishment guarantee that we have all the above hain ji?

Basically we should be having a Walmart of nuclear weapons - not bearing cheap shots that we used Pakis Walmart as we currently are - which seems to be a big part of the current psyops being peddled by NPAs.

Western cuntries don't (at least not publicly) acknowledge the efficacy of our thermonuclear technology. That itself is the biggest reason - (what ever may be the facts in the fizzle or sizzle theory) to again start testing with abandon like we do with our strategic missiles.

Why look squeamish like a kindergarden girl doing her first dress show hain ji?
We should strut our nuclear stuff like a showstopper supermodel in FTV .
A 10 year long nuclear testing regimen is the way to do it.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Oct 2013 23:32

kit wrote:
ramana wrote:And what exactly is that?
the credibility of India's nuclear arsenal in delivering a second strike capability as well as capability to design new generation weapon/warhead . also the old question about fusion bomb capability is very much there. but OT ?

This one is not in doubt.

This one is also not in doubt.

So long as they don't claim its lightweight its also not in doubt

World especially US doesn't want to confirm or deny this one lest India break out.*

so what else is the question?

But how long US hegemony will be there PRC is questioning it.