Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

[Sanku]

I am happy to see NaMo has his priorities right. India definitely needs more toilets than temples.

Indeed that is the congress belief system.

And to make it happen, they have turned the entire country and all its temples into method for fulling that basic need.

[Sanku]

Core hindutva people

This is pretty much everybody working for BJP.

You think the people supporting Modi on BRF are the ones who make sure BJP wins?

[Adrija]

who else is also getting the feeling that Sanku-ji is actually LKA

[Dilbu]

Core hindutva people

This is pretty much everybody working for BJP.

You think the people supporting Modi on BRF are the ones who make sure BJP wins?

I am saying this because I know people supporting Modi on BRF are not the ones who can make sure BJP wins. Modi is a shrewd politician. He will not utter something like this without any benefit.

[Sanku]

I am saying this because I know people supporting Modi on BRF are not the ones who can make sure BJP wins. Modi is a shrewd politician. He will not utter something like this without any benefit.

His calculation can be wrong. I am not saying that this is a mistake that will make a big impact, but the list of unforced errors one can get away with in a game before it starts hitting the results is now +1.

[Dilbu]

My point is that there is no +1 mistake here since whatever negative points he might have scored with hindutva types he may have levelled it off on the other side among AAP types. So the score is still 0.

[Shanmukh]

I think it was a smart move by NaMo. Many people may not agree with this but temple and ayodhya are issues which are past its use by date as tools for gathering vote. Core hindutva people do not have the strength of a 'vote bank' to win the mandate for NaMo so he is not losing much here.

Core Hindutva people have enough of a votebank to make a difference (at least 25% of the BJP vote still comes from them). Could you explain to them why they should choose Modi, over Jairam Ramesh if both of them have the same attitudes towards them?

He is riding the wave of good governance which appeals to the middle class and youth much more than Ayodhya and temple. Projecting his pro development image over hindutva is also diplomacy.

This is an exceptionally pernicious statement. What part of Hindutva has come in the way of development? When did Hindutva people make a demand on state resources for their agenda, to the detriment of development in other sectors? Their entire demand has been that they be left alone, to their own devices, without the constant sniping, and abuse from their `secular' critics. And finally, why do you need to project your pro-development image at the expense of Hindutva? The two can go hand in hand very well.

[Shanmukh]

My point is that there is no +1 mistake here since whatever negative points he might have scored with hindutva types he may have levelled it off on the other side among AAP types. So the score is still 0.

In an election where every vote is going to count, there was no need to score negative points with Hindutva people, to get the AAP types. Unless you want a bunch of iconoclastic anarchists on your side, of course .....

[Sanku]

My point is that there is no +1 mistake here since whatever negative points he might have scored with hindutva types he may have levelled it off on the other side among AAP types. So the score is still 0.

AAP side is the fickle crowd. Trying to woo them at the cost of hindutva types is not a good strategy.

Duvidha mein dono gaye, maya mili na raam (in not being able to decide, you get neither money nor god) -- one reason Modi is looked up to -- is that he is supposed to Stand for nationalism in India -- and the majority -- it is Hindu nationalism.

So when he says, yes I am born Hindu, and I am a nationalist, so you can say I am a Hindu nationalist, his stature becomes ++. When he says things which make him a secular type. His stature goes --.

He can certainly avoid that statement totally. AAP types already have Khujliwal and Rahul baba. Modi can not compete. His strength comes from quarters like those in Rewari. He should not do anything which makes them go "huh"

[Sanku]

BTW, in my every other avatar, what I will do on this statement, is to gloss it over and/or give a shastra based context to show Modi meant that cleaniless is important for temple etc.

Its only because it is BRF and GDF and I know that this discussion is not really going to influence a large number of people is where I am saying what is really true.

[archan]

BTW, in my every other avatar, what I will do on this statement, is to gloss it over and/or give a shastra based context to show Modi meant that cleaniless is important for temple etc.

Its only because it is BRF and GDF and I know that this discussion is not really going to influence a large number of people is where I am saying what is really true.

Wah! I see one more great reason to keep GDF member only!

Duvidha mein dono gaye, maya mili na raam

Good one!

Core Hindutva people have enough of a votebank to make a difference (at least 25% of the BJP vote still comes from them). Could you explain to them why they should choose Modi, over Jairam Ramesh if both of them have the same attitudes towards them?

Wait a min... did you actually mean to say that?
One can understand some people's view that Modi didn't need to speak that sentence. However, equating the statements of Modi and Jairam Ramesh? isn't this a great disservice you yourself are doing? I am sure you understood the meaning of both statements clearly?

[Manish_Sharma]

-- and I dont buy the wave/shave stuff anyway. BJP will win or lose by how they manage each booth and efforts of each local leader. Wave only adds a bit to that if the lowest rung exists solidly.

1984 rajiv gandhi win of 415 lok sabha seats was a wave win.

Same organisation same party works and toll got 190 in 1989 elections.

Anyway will see in May how it goes......

[harbans]

This slogan has been used by NM for ages now..

Karmasura
‏@Karmasura
"Pehle sochalay, phir devalaya." Innovative slogan from NaMo.
View translation
Reply Retweet Favorite More
6
RETWEETS Amit Guptasaurabh srivastavaNaresh dixitGudduIgnitedmindShreeharsha Perla
9:09 PM - 7 Mar 12

[Shanmukh]

Core Hindutva people have enough of a votebank to make a difference (at least 25% of the BJP vote still comes from them). Could you explain to them why they should choose Modi, over Jairam Ramesh if both of them have the same attitudes towards them?

Wait a min... did you actually mean to say that?
One can understand some people's view that Modi didn't need to speak that sentence. However, equating the statements of Modi and Jairam Ramesh? isn't this a great disservice you yourself are doing? I am sure you understood the meaning of both statements clearly?

What I meant to say is just this. One expects nothing except vicious attacks on Hindus by the Congress and their secular affiliates. They have been using every opportunity to run down Hinduism, and that is their ideology. But when BJP people start repeating inflammatory Congress statements, when their own supporters are Hindutva people .....

And to make things worse, Modi's remarks were unnecessary. If Hindutva prioritised temples over toilets, I would even agree with Modi. But it does not. There is no link between the two. By illogically conjoining temples and toilets, Modi has done himself and the BJP a disservice. Talleyrand summarised the feeling best as, `C'est pire qu'un crime, c'est une faute' (It is worse than a crime, it is a blunder).

PS: I will still vote for Modi and the BJP. But, I will stand by my remark that Modi's statement was an unnecessary faux pas.

[Sanku]

-- and I dont buy the wave/shave stuff anyway. BJP will win or lose by how they manage each booth and efforts of each local leader. Wave only adds a bit to that if the lowest rung exists solidly.

1984 rajiv gandhi win of 415 lok sabha seats was a wave win.
.

In 1984 and as a result of the past work, even now to an extent, congress has a solid local level presence in large parts of India. If you already have that, you can harvest a wave.

So NaMo CAN harvest a wave in Raj/Guj/MP/Chgarh/Bihar/Utkhnd/HP/Jammu/Kkta (parts)/Maha (parts) -- UP/AP/TN/Kerala/Bengal etc there wont be a wave.

This division is still not enough for a country wide wave. UP is still a toss up.

====================================================================

Meanwhile
Blow to Modi: Man found who goes to temple before toilet

“I was shocked to hear Modi say ‘pahle shauchalay, phir devalay’ – this is exactly what I had been doing all these years. The thought of being a Modi follower made me sick, and I decided to change my routine,” Digvijay told Faking News.
“I will do whatever it takes to keep communal forces at bay,” the anti-Modi activist declared, “Even if it means being full of shit (in the morning).”

[Supratik]

I don't find anything wrong in NM's statement regarding toilets. He nuanced it with "first toilets, then temples" which is very different from JRs statement which basically meant "we need toilets, not temples".

Nagesh, while your sentiments regarding BJP going alone in AP is ideal it is not realistic. If TRS merges with INC, it leaves the opposition space in T open. An alliance with TDP with a substantial number of seats for the BJP would IMO have long term benefits for BJP in T. BJP is extremely weak in SA and I don't see much chances in SA with or w/o alliances but if TDP wants it will be good to it to get a better bargain in T.

[archan]

PS: I will still vote for Modi and the BJP. But, I will stand by my remark that Modi's statement was an unnecessary faux pas.

I'm not questioning that. Part of me probably even agrees that he could have kept religious matters apart for now. There is plenty of meat in his talks even without that.
My question is, how did you conclude that his and Jairam's statements are one and the same? how did the BJP repeat Congress' statement here?

[Shanmukh]

My question is, how did you conclude that his and Jairam's statements are one and the same? how did the BJP repeat Congress' statement here?

The statements are definitely not the same, but the sentiment of conjoining toilets with temples is uncannily similar.

[Sanku]

My question is, how did you conclude that his and Jairam's statements are one and the same? how did the BJP repeat Congress' statement here?

It did not. However how many folks are going to get it? The media and congress has jumped on it, and it is now a mee too statement.

The perception of the statement is what is going to count finally. Isnt it? How many people care about reality? It takes a GDF on a BRF to some what approximate honest discussions on many topics.

At least that is what I see outside. If others see it differently (that by and large those statements are seen in the same way in general populace) -- I would be happy to hear their views. (which is different from how they themselves perceive it)

[Lilo]

NaMo needs more such intended or unintended "faux pas" "stumbles" in the eyes of this blind electorate currently in his thrall - which is always a dangerous situation.
Because Congi's can pulloff some major coup later on tomtomming on some undeniable minor/major issue in NaMo with paidmedia intow which can blowup into an unrecoverable collapse on the eve of the election.
For a tree to grow strong the trunk must be strong and it has to grow straight - if such minor sauchalaya stuff putsoff stragglers off - its good riddance and consider it required pruning of side ward growing branches for now. They will always (grow back )come back later - elections are 8 months away.

In the mean time don't contradict or go back on any stuff.

Winning presidential elections is all about timing. People in Massa must be well aware of this.
And when a wave is being banked upon - parliamentary election will be faught in presidential style and here timing is the most important thing than anything else.

That Bjp team underestimated NaMo's pull in the runup is what I can understand with these events.

[Manish_Sharma]

Sanku ji,

Yes indeed. Saying that there is a more urgent need to build toilets than temples, is as much a self goal as giving a certificate of "secular" good character to the man who partitioned India.

If this is really the quality of thinking in the Sushma-Advani scab (too small to even call it a respectable "rump") within the BJP... no wonder they lost the 2004 and 2009 elections in such utterly humiliating measure.

RD ji; you need to get beyond personal admiration for Modi and see the bigger picture.

Only Advani & Sushma admiration is allowed?

Bhago....... ducking for cover!

[Sanku]

Only Advani & Sushma admiration is allowed?

Bhago....... ducking for cover!

[kittoo]

I also agree that the statement could (should) have been avoided. I understand that Modi does not need to woo core Hindu vote now, as he has it anyway, but any statement that might make them doubt his Hindu Hriday Samrat credentials, should be avoided. After all, core Hindu votes make a large part of his total votes and appeal. As I said once before, I am slowly getting nervous about the chances of Modi also becoming a little too 'secular', in the effort of distancing himself from Hindutva. I hope I am wrong.

[niran]

The statements are definitely not the same, but the sentiment of conjoining toilets with temples is uncannily similar.

no they are not, jairam ramesh meant India have enough temples so toilets needed to be built
NaMo meant first you gotta visit the loo and clean yourself up then go visit temple totally different meanings

[harbans]

There is a difference between a conservative Hindu and a fundamentalist Dharmic.

[Pratyush]

^^^

Is the collective Hindu identity so week, that, a man saying sauchalyay before devalya, damages / weakens it?

How many BRF ites who were going to vote for BJP, before this will shift to INC after the statement. And how many aam junta will do so. It will be a usual sound and dance routine from the MSM. Before moving on to the next imaginery controversy. Within the BJP.

Please people on the BRF, ought to be smart enough to see through the game. That the MSM, will twist and turn any statement made by the BJP, as controversial.

The objective is to beat the INC. Modi, happens to be the best tool for the job at the moment. He is merely trying to make the aam junta better acquainted with his thought process.

This is one of the ways, through which he can underscore his developmental credentials. It ought to be welcomed.

On a personal note, I would want him to make more such statements.

[Yagnasri]

ELECTIONS process FOR 5 STATES STARTED.

[kapilrdave]

The statements are definitely not the same, but the sentiment of conjoining toilets with temples is uncannily similar.

NaMo meant first you gotta visit the loo and clean yourself up then go visit temple totally different meanings

That is simply not true. He was talking about building toilets rather than temples. But why should he bring in temples in this discussion when the govt has nothing to do with building temples? And he said that it requires courage to say this being a stamped hindutvavadi leader. Did anyone ask him to prove his bravery? And why this stepmothership against temples? He could have said temples-mosques in same breath if he really wanted to show his bravery. Otherwise he should stick to his development talks. Hindus don't want him to talk about Hindus. They want him to talk about development and not to appease other religions. Is it too much to ask?

Someone please tell him that such tactics will not fetch him any votes because his opponents are GODS of this game. Chances are that he might lose some votes if he ventures into this muddy water.

[Hari Seldon]

It is important that otherwise well-meaning folks criticize namo as they see fit, else this side of the aisle starts to eerily resemble dynasty sycophancy.

For the record, that comment was unnecessary. Better to admit namo goofed up than defend the indefensible. Will stand namo's and the nation's well-eishers in good stead down the line.

Strictly JMTPs and all that, std disclaimers apply, etc.

[Kakkaji]

Can a hot headed, immature Rahul be India's PM? - Rediff

Never expected such harsh criticism from MSM, especially from Rediff. I think, the ordinance outburst of RaGa is a watershed moment of his life. Now paid-Media, allies may ditch and hiss Rahul for his temperamental and untrustworthy behavior.

OMG! Look at the picture in the rediff article. Pappu is losinghair and his beard is goig gray. What will happen to the 'Gushing female' vote now?

[nachiket]

People are making too much of this temple-toilet statement. NaMo is going to be giving many more speeches before the elections and not every one of his statements is going to be acceptable to all his supporters. Namo is human and it is humanly impossible to please everyone all the time. If his supporters have half a brain they won't lose sight of the big picture - viz. he's the best we have got and needs to be supported to the hilt if this country is to have a better future. Instead, even on BRF we have people comparing him to Jairam Ramesh on the basis of one statement (which is not even technically wrong come to think of it), as if none of his other achievements matter one bit.

You guys need to prepare yourselves. There will be more statements later which you might not like but will have to ignore. Nobody is perfect. Remember, whatever he says he is still a million times better than the alternative.

[Raja Bose]

^^^wtf is there a close up shot of pappu's gonads on that page?

[krishnan]

^^^wtf is there a close up shot of pappu's gonads on that page?

[prahaar]

It is important that otherwise well-meaning folks criticize namo as they see fit, else this side of the aisle starts to eerily resemble dynasty sycophancy.

For the record, that comment was unnecessary. Better to admit namo goofed up than defend the indefensible. Will stand namo's and the nation's well-eishers in good stead down the line.

Strictly JMTPs and all that, std disclaimers apply, etc.

The test of a real leader is the ability to make statements/decisions that his/her supporters dislike. A leader who only says things his followers like; the followers are doomed. My statement might sound undemocratic, but the leader's job is not to rubber-stamp the most popular view in his support base. Different types of discriminations (caste, sex, etc), infanticide, oppression under the name of religion, will never be contained if the leader cannot tell that these practices are wrong and harmful. In the same vein, NM statement is a necessary wake up call for all to see what is urgent and what is important.

[Sanku]

^^^wtf is there a close up shot of pappu's gonads on that page?

Bhy phor onlee you is it that to be notijing such things? Hain jee?

[Manish_Sharma]

Maybe Modi has been saying it 100s of times over last 13 years times, but because of media blackout on him it never came to limelight.

And now with 7 to 10 lakh people rallies going on with facebook - youtube - niticentral media is forced to show his speeches, so they pick and magnify whatever part they can present as negative - controversial. It'll only wisen him for future.

If he had the guts to reject muslim cap on stage under full glare of cameras then we can trust him to learn from this mistake also! In 3 months people would have forgotten it.

[Sanku]

The test of a real leader is the ability to make statements/decisions that his/her supporters dislike.

And a test for a good supporter is to stand up to the leader and inform the leader that -- cholbe na. Some things leader has to follow for the sake of followers.

Right from Shri Ram Chandra.

[Shanmukh]

Maybe Modi has been saying it 100s of times over last 13 years times, but because of media blackout on him it never came to limelight.

And now with 7 to 10 lakh people rallies going on with facebook - youtube - niticentral media is forced to show his speeches, so they pick and magnify whatever part they can present as negative - controversial. It'll only wisen him for future.

If he had the guts to reject muslim cap on stage under full glare of cameras then we can trust him to learn from this mistake also! In 3 months people would have forgotten it.

+1. Yes, this is what keeps me hopeful about Modi. I sincerely hope he will not fall into the `secluarism' trap that Advani did. Secularists are masters of this game,and will try to trap every BJP leader into becoming anti-Hindu. Modi should be very careful what he says to the secular crowd. It is a delicate balancing act, but I think Modi has enough ability to appeal to the `only development' crowd without losing his core Hindu supporters.

[Yagnasri]

Close this matter gurus elections for 5 states are declared. First major test for NM. I think Chattisgarh may be problem as Naxals, EJ are now totally with mafia and some of the Bjp MLAs are said to be deeply unpopular.

[prahaar]

The test of a real leader is the ability to make statements/decisions that his/her supporters dislike.

And a test for a good supporter is to stand up to the leader and inform the leader that -- cholbe na. Some things leader has to follow for the sake of followers.

Right from Shri Ram Chandra.

I agree to some extent; a true leader and a true follower cease to be that (a leader and a follower) but are peers in a common mission. Only with benefit of hindsight one can determine whether it was a leaders stubbornness or magnanimity (same is the case for a follower but remembered less since he/she may not be that important). Something that is considered "self-serving" in the immediate aftermath of the action is considered major balidaan later (Krishna's palayan from Mathura) while something that was considered a major balidaan becomes a millstone and disgrace later (Bhishma pratigya).