pragnya wrote:but you need to keep in mind HAL is the only manufacturing unit of these Dorniers and there is a great demand for them for different needs. an improved Dornier will only consolidate HAL's hold on the market. besides the knowhow is being offered at 'no cost' with committments for new buys. why should it be lost?
Pragnya in your enthusiasm for this project you have misread what is actually on offer free of cost it's not the "know how" but
RUAG would provide all the technical assistance at no cost
There is a world of difference between the two things. What EADS is doing for LCA Navy is the same thing w.r.t what is here on offer for "free" and one of the reason why it is on offer for "free" is
Mr Schilliger told India Strategic recently pointing out that it will help RUAG reduce its European prices by around $ 2 million/ aircraft.
Because HAL is the only manufacturer of the aircraft, now if HAL chooses to dump the project and refuses this offer I am pretty sure that $ 2 million saving will become either zero or run in negative. Starting a production line back home will cost too dear according to themselves and neither starting a new production line in another country is feasible given the savings they are targeting and I'am not even considering the pains of doing the same.
pragnya wrote:learning may not be substantial but it helps still.
Helps in what ??? Running the cash register ??? Is that the only thing which is important ???
pragnya wrote:let me give an example - IJT Sitara was designed with Larzac engine but when they realised it was underpowered, an adhoc request was made to the russians to design AL55I and as can be seen now HAL is struggling with a chain of issues - mods needed for the change of engine (whose reliability is also in question), aerodynamic part, weight penalty etc..
This example makes no sense with what I asked for.
pragnya wrote:now even in the Dornier NG too there is an engine change but the mods knowhow etc will come from RUAG which will give lot of inputs/insights to the HAL engineers. i concede this is not an apple to apple comparison but the insights gained in one can be 'variably' adopted to other programmes by competent engineers IMO.
besides Karan M has already pointed out the other gains.
You are again misusing the word "know how" without having the knowledge what "know how" we will get and Karan pointed to the same thing that you are talking about, his response is missing the authority which he usually has pointing out that yes these technologies will be gained by signing on this deal. Both him and you are hoping that we will get some "know how" from this. Let's see the new technologies in NG version,
The new generation Dornier 228 has features like state-of-the-art avionics and communication systems, Universal UNS-1 digital glass cockpit with four 5x7in (13x18cm) Multifunction Displays (MFDs) featuring electronic instrument displays, better engines, longer range, better payload, new landing gear design and five-bladed propellers to name a few.
What has been "offered" to HAL,
Leinauer says his company has offered these upgrades to HAL. “We offer them (HAL) the upgrade to the achieved standard – yes. It can be done at any time. They can fit the new cockpit, they can fit the new avionics, they can fit the propellers. We are talking to them and this is something that definitely we want to do,” he says.
The European requirement is for the new Dornier 228 NG (Next Generation), which has more powerful engines, five-blade composite propellers, contemporary glass cockpit and other gadgets for safety and both fuel and operational efficiency.
All I see here is them supplying us the new NG technologies without any talk of ToT but free "technical assistance".
pragnya wrote:net, Dornier NG will bring in lot of business which can help other HAL programmes indirectly and improve manufacturing processes.
I don't disagree with the business part but ask undeniable proof for the second one i.e. "improve manufacturing processes" given that they are offering "free technical assistance" and I don't remember the last time any kind of technology was given to India for free.
pragnya wrote:to the 'bolded' - the difference is while the one you are speaking of (SU 30MKI) is 'purely' for our own needs but the Dornier NG would be for the global market (apart from domestic needs).
rest of your point only emphasises what i/Karan M are trying to say - anything that helps needs to be imbibed which will only help both HAL and industry at large, in the long term.
I was talking of
LCA !!!! When did we set up production line for Su 30 (MKI) on our own ??? Russia helped us there.
What I ask is still the same that, what new we are going to learn from this ??? Will that new be good enough to help our aviation industry ??? All that has been posted or said till now point to nothing of that sorts.
HAL has been earning it's money by license manufacturing all these years. If there was aviation business to be learned by license manufacturing then HAL should have been at top of the business no ??? But all these years of license manufacturing didn't teach us that setting up a production line itself is a technology itself. Ultimately an SDRE programme brought us that realisation. If HAL gets a deal which says that half of the aircrafts supplied will have Indian manufactured and developed avionics and other gadgets or we will get ToT of some technologies going into NG then I will agree that yes this deal is good for our industry. Otherwise it's the same old thing rehashed and resold in a new package.