Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 06 Oct 2013 01:06

Ramana, item three has been the subject of intense and shall we say enthusiastic debate on BRF.

Would you go out on a limb and essentially say - yes reliable fusion weapon but not lightweight ?

In all the drama nobody mentions the FBF primary which from all accounts worked.

Anyway, in no way am I contradicting you, just asking, that's all.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Oct 2013 01:16

do you know Govinda's marquee song?

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 06 Oct 2013 01:17

Not exactly no - remember my idea of fine music is Sesame Street.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Oct 2013 01:19

Its their gupt/rahasya why go there?

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 06 Oct 2013 01:20

Hidden truths just beg to be uncovered !

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Oct 2013 14:06

The fizzle vs Sizzle debate: Why?

It about owning a technology, you have it, you are in the Big League.
Its about mastering this tech AND then going beyond it.

I don't think that the P5 will ever use a N weapon in anger, can't see things ever deteriorating to that extent.

But the Pakistan situation, and the Fauji-Jehadi combine in power there, with radiation devices in their hands and constantly improving on them with China-NoKo is a worrisome situation for India. India might be pushed into a situation where it may have to retaliate (in kind) with N weapons

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Oct 2013 15:45

For Pakistani we need Neutron Weapon more than H or F weapon ......need to get rid of evil people at Pindi and their likes spread out at POK.

H weapon is no more in fashion other then we have the technology to build one and needs constant test and refinement to achieve high burn ratio of secondary and make it smaller.

Naive as I may sound but what happened to the celestial weapon that ancient Indian scriptures spoke about in Mahabharata , Ramayan and others ..... are those lost completely ? All the weapons we have till date would be like a Toy weapons if those ancient high energy weapons would ever get realised today.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 06 Oct 2013 16:11

Austin wrote:For Pakistani we need Neutron Weapon more than H or F weapon ......need to get rid of evil people at Pindi and their likes spread out at POK.

H weapon is no more in fashion other then we have the technology to build one and needs constant test and refinement to achieve high burn ratio of secondary and make it smaller.

H & F warheads are very much needed, if we just use Neutrons and kill the elites of pindi headquarters and islamabad, then what happens to all those 20 crore pakistanis who are fed genocidal hatred against Bharatvarsh with mother's milk?

Of course killing elites opens the case for opening the borders too!

All of these evil people need to be killed.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 06 Oct 2013 19:47

It is just not as simple to be generalized in any way. Tomorrow if IN decides to have more hunter submarines in numbers alone and subsequently change role of these to attack ones with fewer number of MIRVs then deterrence should not change in any intermediate stages. Roughly its not possible to determine all possible situation arising even in decade or more precisely. Generalizing is not accurate and therefore misplaced and deceptive.

kit · Post by **kit** » 07 Oct 2013 01:06

The problem with fusion/fission et all .. is nobody wants to start a war with those who have it.. but since our world is imperfect and we do have half brained idiots in seats of power as neighbors who believe they can have a 'limited war' with no retaliation whatever India says.Also the big amphibian next door respects only power that is shown ..not supposed/capabilities (they like theaterics., big bangs, shooting down satellites etc etc ) India certainly will need to prove a full blown hydrogen and neutron bomb capability somewhere down the road.. doesn't matter if it likes or not ! God forbid no one is going to use a single nuke in Asia again ! ( i ll leave out Europe and America ., their story is their own making)

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 07 Oct 2013 14:54

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/drdo- ... 131007.htm

India on Monday successfully test-fired indigenously developed nuclear-capable Prithvi-II missile -- with a strike range of 350 km -- from a test range at Chandipur near Balasore in Odisha.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 07 Oct 2013 20:16

krishnan wrote:http://www.rediff.com/news/report/drdo- ... 131007.htm
India on Monday successfully test-fired indigenously developed nuclear-capable Prithvi-II missile -- with a strike range of 350 km -- from a test range at Chandipur near Balasore in Odisha.

I wonder which missile they actually tested, k-4?

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 07 Oct 2013 20:20

Naah it's still some time away from being tested and don't forget to take a look at the new age "Prithvi" missile shown in the news link.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Oct 2013 20:28

I don't believe its a Prithvi II.

DDM reading out from a DRDO handout.

DRDO was going to test a New Target and Interceptor missile for their upcoming exoatmospheric test, might be one of these.
Or, a Sagarika version being tested after some improvements.

But why would DRDO test a Prithvi II hain ji? These missiles are on their way out of service.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Oct 2013 20:30

krishnan wrote:http://www.rediff.com/news/report/drdo- ... 131007.htm
India on Monday successfully test-fired indigenously developed nuclear-capable Prithvi-II missile -- with a strike range of 350 km -- from a test range at Chandipur near Balasore in Odisha.

Seems like production batch testing of Prithvi and the range indicates its IAF variant but tested by SFC , the fact they are still testing the Prithvi series from production batches indicates this missile would be there for a long time in our inventory , not withstanding the K series.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 07 Oct 2013 21:08

Austin wrote:Seems like production batch testing of Prithvi and the range indicates its IAF variant but tested by SFC , the fact they are still testing the Prithvi series from production batches indicates this missile would be there for a long time in our inventory , not withstanding the K series.

or this might be the 'withdrawn' Prithvi 1s 'upgraded' for longer ranges which was spoken about back in 2011. though DRDO has publicly said Prahar will be inducted by 2015 in place of tactical Prithvi 1s, IMO the process may already have been set in motion - considering the cumbersome missile with liquid fuel, which would be a logistical, operational nightmare!!

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 07 Oct 2013 21:48

Newer Prithvis are not as cumbersome as older liquid fueled ones.
Is it possible that SFC launches missiles as simulations for a nuclear attack ?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Oct 2013 22:56

India has been dropping a lot of hints lately about the 'robustness' of the nuclear command and control. The last test of A5 they revealed that a simulated green signal was received from Dilli.

I am sure that once the green signal is recieved, the SFC will implement the directive with clockwork precision.

Two grey areas though:
1. The leadership vacilliating
2. The robustness of the flower petals after the launch in terms of yield.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Oct 2013 22:57

jamwal wrote:Newer Prithvis are not as cumbersome as older liquid fueled ones.

Gel based fuel?

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 07 Oct 2013 23:10

Gagan wrote:
But why would DRDO test a Prithvi II hain ji? These missiles are on their way out of service.

Can't we start exporting some of these missiles with EULA and technical restrictions , which might be going out of service, to other countries like Vietnam or some of the world's hotspots? We are not part of MTCR as yet. What could be the constraining factors besides lungi shivering.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 07 Oct 2013 23:30

jamwal wrote:Is it possible that SFC launches missiles as simulations for a nuclear attack ?

I guess the "user trials" are that only.

chaanakya wrote:
Gagan wrote:
But why would DRDO test a Prithvi II hain ji? These missiles are on their way out of service.
Can't we start exporting some of these missiles with EULA and technical restrictions , which might be going out of service, to other countries like Vietnam or some of the world's hotspots? We are not part of MTCR as yet. What could be the constraining factors besides lungi shivering.

We should be ready to supply the nooke detergent as well. BM's are of ghanta deterrence value without the real maal.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 07 Oct 2013 23:49

Who is talking of deterrence? I am talking of Arms(Missile) export to earn money.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 08 Oct 2013 00:00

There were reports that some nations were interested in Akash, we ourselves are in the process of learning w.r.t. having across the spectrum missile capabilities. So in short we must first get our house in order before dreaming of exporting mijjiles.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 08 Oct 2013 00:20

I am sure there could be some other constraints but certainly not the spectrum wespectrum. The manufacturing capacity may be one. Some restricted items brought from MTCR countries could be another. But I was thinking loud about Prithvi getting phased out and perhaps we could think of exporting..... The main constraint I see is that we don't have a policy in place, nor diplomatic wherewithal to sustain such high profile exports nor our interests in other countries are clear.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 08 Oct 2013 00:26

Again you are back to Prithvi, I have already said that any BM without nuclear warheads is waste and of no value so if India decides to transfer Prithvi it must also be ready to transfer nuke tech.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 08 Oct 2013 00:28

And how many countries , which are in arms trade, have done that??

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 08 Oct 2013 01:35

chaanakya wrote:And how many countries , which are in arms trade, have done that??

Only China to Pak and China to NoKo come to mind as a case of nuke_to_non-nuke transfer.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 08 Oct 2013 08:17

Well you mean Nuke transfer or BM transfer to non nuke country? My question is whether any country has transferred BM to non Nuke countries and if so with Nuke or without Nuke?

Sagar originally postulated that BM transfer without Nuke tech is useless and no deterrence . So India has to transfer Nuke tech along with BM. Which I find unrealistic and has no parallel except for clandestine transfers.. Of course there could be other uses of BM with conventional payload which according to him is useless. I hope I am correctly reflecting his opinion.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 08 Oct 2013 08:31

I think the last time someone tried that we had the Cuban missile crisis, with the US placing nuclear missiles in Turkey, the Soviet Union doing the same with Cuba, and then both sides deciding to withdraw.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Oct 2013 10:20

All of UK's missiles are bought from the US. As are their nukes.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 08 Oct 2013 10:20

Gagan wrote:
jamwal wrote:Newer Prithvis are not as cumbersome as older liquid fueled ones.
Gel based fuel?

From a news item in 2003

Within a week of the crucial meeting of the Nuclear Command Authority under the chairmanship of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, the government has given a go ahead for procuring 30 more short range surface-to-surface Prithvi missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads.

The move to acquire 30 of these 150-300 km range missiles is coinciding with final preparations being made by the Defence Research and Development Organisation to test fire the 3,000 km version of the Intermediate Ballistic Missile - Agni III, highly placed defence ministry officials said..
.Declaring their intention to "consolidate" India's nuclear deterrence, the meeting reviewed the arrangements for the strategic forces programme and took a number of decisions on further development and management of the programme.
.
.
.

The army has placed the order for the 30 new Prithvi missiles, which would have a new solid propellant instead of the present liquid fuel motor.

The solid propellant, which the DRDO has now developed for both Prithvi as well as Agni Range of surface-to-surface missiles, has been found by experts to be more reliable and target oriented. Incidentally, all the North Korean missiles clandestinely acquired by Pakistan field a solid propellant.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 08 Oct 2013 11:06

nachiket wrote:All of UK's missiles are bought from the US. As are their nukes.

Right on the first thing. Wrong on the second.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4438392.stm

All the UK's warheads are built at the Atomic Weapons Establishment in Aldermaston, Berkshire.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Oct 2013 11:27

RajitO wrote:
All the UK's warheads are built at the Atomic Weapons Establishment in Aldermaston, Berkshire.

Yup. Just like IAF's Su-30's are built by HAL.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 08 Oct 2013 11:58

nachiket wrote:
All the UK's warheads are built at the Atomic Weapons Establishment in Aldermaston, Berkshire.
Yup. Just like IAF's Su-30's are built by HAL.

Here's another link...your choice to live in a world of opinion or correct a misinformed opinion with fact.

http://www.fas.org/news/uk/000414-uk2.htm

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Oct 2013 12:06

Massively OT for this thread.

UK has a history of conducting its own Nuke tests, and reportedly has access to the US labs for the simulation of the nuke explosions. This was discussed during the, CTBT discussions, as an inducement for the UK signing the CTBT. However, that does not mean, that, the weapons are US made.

Post trident, the warheads may be designed and manufactured by the US. (Read may be). ie, if the UK decides to remain a nuke power. There is good chance that the UK may give up the Nuke weapons it self.

But they are not designed or built by the US, at the moment.

nits · Post by **nits** » 08 Oct 2013 13:31

Back to Backkkk

Prithvi-II successfully test-fired for second time in two days

India on Tuesday successfully test-fired for the second time in two days its indigenously developed nuclear-capable Prithvi-II missile, which has a strike range of 350 km, from a test range at Chandipur near here.

The surface-to-surface missile was test-fired from a mobile launcher in salvo mode from launch complex-3 of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at about 12.20pm.

"Today's test fire of Prithvi-II missile is also successful and achieved all its targets," Director of ITR, MVKV Prasad told PTI.

He said today's test fire was as accurate as yesterday's exercise.

The scientists randomly chose a missile from the production stock and put it on test. The total launch activities were carried out by the specially formed SFC and monitored by the scientists of DRDO as part of practice drill.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 08 Oct 2013 14:21

Now this report says that it's liquid fueled

Same paper

mody · Post by **mody** » 08 Oct 2013 14:26

The Prithvi is not in the same class as missiles acquired by UK or the ones involved during the cuban missile crisis.

The Prithvi can be used as a non-nuke, tactical ballistic missile. The correct analogy, is the sale of Soviet Scud missiles to a no. of countries around the world.

The Prithvi SS-150 and SS-250, when used with smaller warheads, would not even violate the MTCR. Offcourse the value of non-nuke sub-500 Kg payload would not be much.
If the Prithvi-150 or 250 can be exported with 1 Ton payloads, then even conventionally armed Prithvi's, do serve a purpose.

In fact I would readily recommend, that all of IA and IAF's Prithvi's be moved out of SFC and be given a strictly tactical non-nuke role. They can be used to target, high value fixed targets like airforce bases etc.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 08 Oct 2013 14:55

Being liquid fuel it is not quick reaction one. How many hours it will take to fuel? No solid fuel version? Even P3 also have one stage liquid. How it can be fueled on a ship? Is it not a problem. Further whether seems will have time?

negi · Post by **negi** » 08 Oct 2013 15:08

Well for all practical purposes what Nachiket says is right ; their weapons in design are as much English as TSP's weapons are pindigenous .
They got the ABCD of the entire thing in form of various mutual defence agreements from USA right through the late 50s. The very fact that the delivery platform is all american including the MIRV bus it follows that warhead has to fit inside the MK4 re-entry vehicle and most probably is a W76 derivative with some cosmetics for H&D.

http://www.nti.org/gsn/article/british- ... -warheads/

"The first W-76-1 United Kingdom trials test was performed at WETL (Weapon Evaluation Test Laboratory), providing qualification data critical to the U.K. implementation of the W-76-1," according to a report last month from the Sandia National Laboratories in New Mexico.