China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 10 Oct 2013 14:12

Very True! All the more when they haven't built anything close from scratch..at least not after Zheng He.

indranilroy wrote:^^^^ That's the stupidest thing I have seen in a while. Must be fan-boy stuff.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Oct 2013 21:39

I did a Google Earth study of all the Chinese roads and infrastructure visible in Aksai Chin. The article is online at the link below for anyone who is interested
http://defenceforumindia.com/chinese-ro ... -chin-1978

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 10 Oct 2013 22:57

So a complete air dominance is extremely necessary in there.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 10 Oct 2013 23:03

Thanks Shiv. Very informative and detailed study.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2013 08:02

Thanks viv.

If anyone is interested in looking at all the little details that I marked on Google earth, the enitre set of placemarks including roads, bridges, tunnels, named places and other infrastructure can be downloaded as a kmz file at the link below

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4I ... sp=sharing

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 11 Oct 2013 09:01

shiv wrote:I did a Google Earth study of all the Chinese roads and infrastructure visible in Aksai Chin. The article is online at the link below for anyone who is interested
http://defenceforumindia.com/chinese-ro ... -chin-1978

Extremely informative, Shiv-ji. Thanks very much.

I have a newbie question about this. In case of a conflict, could the Indians not opt to do what you suggested that the Chinese do, i.e., attack along the axes where we are face to face with the Chinese, kick them out of their high altitude positions, and compel them to fight on the open plains of Aksai Chin? And by grabbing a defensible line by occupying all the heights of the Shyok river valley, would it not make our position more secure?

There is another question. Say India cuts the Xinjiang-Tibet road? What would be the consequences for the Chinese? How dependent are they on this road for their needs?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2013 09:23

nageshks if you imagine Tibet to be a table-top, Aksai Chin is one corner of the table top - so it is all at about the same altitude. "Kicking out" the Chinese from their high altitude positions means kicking them out from Tibet - which would not be a simple undertaking.

On the other hand the only high atltitude areas of the Tibet plateau India now occupies is the Depsang plain and the Chinese keep pushing us so we fall off the edge of the table onto Indian side river valleys. In other words we have to climb to fight on the plateau. The Chinese are already there but their supply route are long and the terrain and environment is arduous.

There is no alternative to overwhelming air power. We need MMRCA, high alt capable helos, PGMs and air transportable assets and a great transport fleet.

Cutting the G 219 essentially stops the Tibet-Xinjiang traffic. I suspect that military supplies will come to Aksai Chin and Tibet from Xinjiang in case of trouble and that would need to be halted. For China both Xinjiang and Tibet are remote - so it is very likely that the Chinese have built up big stocks of materiel in the area. A hint of that can be seen in the North East corner of Aksai Chin near the point where the G 219 enters Aksai Chin from the north. I have not mentioned that in my article because it is outside Aksai Chin. But the area is full of what appear to be mines, but they could also be tunnels that house war material.

Here is an image - but look at that entire album (link at bottom) - it is full of images I have taken of the Aksai Chin area off Google Earth

This is the album
http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/benne ... t=3&page=1

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Oct 2013 20:21

shiv wrote:nageshks if you imagine Tibet to be a table-top, Aksai Chin is one corner of the table top - so it is all at about the same altitude. "Kicking out" the Chinese from their high altitude positions means kicking them out from Tibet - which would not be a simple undertaking.<SNIP>

Shiv - one of the objectives of Chinese in 1962 war was to control the passes which have historically facilitated east-west (and reverse) movement of men and material.

The Chinese claim line very conveniently sits on such passes - controlling such passes ensures we cannot attack G219. Further, the fact that they control passes also means they control high ground. Except for Depsang Plains and east Aksai Chin, area to south till Demchok is pretty mountainous - with few notable plain areas/gaps like Spanggur Gap.

Their idea is to keep India boxed in and prevent a break-out.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Oct 2013 20:41

For China both Xinjiang and Tibet are remote - so it is very likely that the Chinese have built up big stocks of materiel in the area. A hint of that can be seen in the North East corner of Aksai Chin near the point where the G 219 enters Aksai Chin from the north.

IIRC, the army version of the Brahmos was just for such a situation.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 11 Oct 2013 20:52

^^^ You read my mind saar was just about to post that.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 11 Oct 2013 21:20

NRao wrote:
For China both Xinjiang and Tibet are remote - so it is very likely that the Chinese have built up big stocks of materiel in the area. A hint of that can be seen in the North East corner of Aksai Chin near the point where the G 219 enters Aksai Chin from the north.
IIRC, the army version of the Brahmos was just for such a situation.

Expect the majority of those supplies to be dispersed before any Chinese attack. And we can safely rule out any Indian pre-emption to a new Chinese adventure.

We need to go with the assumption that the initiative will always be with the enemies who attack India, sad as that sounds.

Under this assumption, launching costly missile strikes against highly dispersed ground targets is a non-starter. Expect the Brahmos missiles to be reserved for high-value hard targets only (unless we dramatically increase the number of missiles in our arsenal, of course).

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 11 Oct 2013 21:24

rohitvats wrote:Shiv - one of the objectives of Chinese in 1962 war was to control the passes which have historically facilitated east-west (and reverse) movement of men and material.

The Chinese claim line very conveniently sits on such passes - controlling such passes ensures we cannot attack G219. Further, the fact that they control passes also means they control high ground. Except for Depsang Plains and east Aksai Chin, area to south till Demchok is pretty mountainous - with few notable plain areas/gaps like Spanggur Gap.

Their idea is to keep India boxed in and prevent a break-out.

It wasn't just the objective within the context of the 1962 war. The PLA had been pushing the Indian patrols further west for the past decade before the war. In 1962, they effectively controlled all possible vantage points relative to their supply lines. They may not have come deep into India because of our stiff defense, but they certainly crushed any Indian thoughts of a breakthrough into the Aksai Chin long before the war started.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2013 21:26

Rohit given the state of the terrain and roads in Aksai Chin and the fact that the G 219 is 100 km away from the LAC as the crow flies and even further by road - a land route to cut it off would be pointless. It would have to be cut off by air dominance and air interdiction as well as spl forces.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 11 Oct 2013 21:32

Nirbhay perhaps could be pressed into service if it is available.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Oct 2013 21:36

shiv wrote:Rohit given the state of the terrain and roads in Aksai Chin and the fact that the G 219 is 100 km away from the LAC as the crow flies and even further by road - a land route to cut it off would be pointless. It would have to be cut off by air dominance and air interdiction as well as spl forces.

Chief - you're visualizing Indian and Chinese capabilities in today's context.

In 1962 and period prior to it, China had to contend with Indian Army moving west to east to retake Aksai Chin and threaten the road. It would have made all the sense then to stake a claim line on the passes to prevent any lateral movement. These passes also controlled the historic land routes used by caravans to go either north or east.

Holds true today as well - they box India in. Further, G219 represents only one of the objectives (and pretty ambitious at that) - even otherwise, our lateral movement will get restricted.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Oct 2013 21:57

A few dozen missiles like BMos or Nirbhay will not do at all.These missiles will be needed in their hundreds if used against ground forces and will be prohibitively expensive.There will be a very heavy demand upon the IAF to stem the tide of Chinese forces attacking in superior number.One cannot rule out the Chinese attacking our air bases,high alt. landing grounds and key command centres with barrages of tactical missiles which they have in the thousands.One report estimated Chinese tactical missile production at around 500 per yr.The GOI should seriously look at also using TNWs ,just as the Pakis have integrated it too into their doctrine in the case of deep thrusts by the IA or severe crippling losses of their mil. capability.In fact the TNW inventory should be dramaticallly augmented to counter both Pak and China.India cannot afford to have inferiority in numbers of N-weapons in the case of Pak alone,which exists,as several intl.think tanks have indicated.

Any attack by the Chinese has to see a massive strike by India at the logistic lifeline to Tibet, destroying key installations of the Tibetan railway,Karakorum Highway and airfields and air bases of the PLAAF in Tibet.There can be no half measures to be taken.The sight of a few Chinese flagged merchantmen and tankers in flames,transiting the IOR ,would send the strongest message to the PRC that there will never be another '62 ever.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2013 22:42

rohitvats wrote: In 1962 and period prior to it, China had to contend with Indian Army moving west to east to retake Aksai Chin and threaten the road. It would have made all the sense then to stake a claim line on the passes to prevent any lateral movement. These passes also controlled the historic land routes used by caravans to go either north or east.

Holds true today as well - they box India in. Further, G219 represents only one of the objectives (and pretty ambitious at that) - even otherwise, our lateral movement will get restricted.

Did the Indian army have any presence at all when the G 219 was being built in 1958-9?

Even in 1962 the big battles IIRC were where India got pushed off to the western reaches of Pangong lake. Was India ever in a position to hold those passes? Holding Aksai Chin was wishful thinking all the way because it was not held at all by India other than in a map. I am just surprised at how the Chinese did not push us all the way off the edge of the table in 1962 in the northern DBO/Depsang plain area

"Retaking" Aksai Chin would be a pointless (and futile) exercise IMO - but cutting off the G 219 would be a useful target. That would also mean taking out the 4 air bases in Xinjiang.

kshirin · Post by **kshirin** » 13 Oct 2013 20:43

China will copy these and be one more step ahead of us. The long range applies to us too. We better hurry in developing our own aircraft industry.

Extracts below:

http://www.jamestown.org/programs/china ... lq-iFBpv6o

Why China Wants the Su-35
Publication: China Brief Volume: 13 Issue: 20
October 10, 2013 04:19 PM Age: 4 hrs
By: Peter Wood

A senior executive at Russia’s state arms export company,Rosoboronexport, has said that Russia will sign a contract to sell the advanced Su-35 jet to China in 2014, while confirming that the deal is not on track to be finished in 2013 (RIA Novosti, September 7).

...Simply put, the Su-35 is the current best non-stealth fighter.

...The advantage of the Su-35 rather lies in its speed and ample fuel tanks. Like the Su-27, the Su-35 was created to patrol Russia’s enormous airspace and to be able to meet incoming threats far away from Russia’s main urban areas. China’s Air Force faces similar problems.

...Enforcing claims far from the mainland in times of crisis requires the type of range and speed that the Su-35 possesses. The Su-35 is likely meant to help enforce China’s territorial claims, further deter regional claimants, and provide additional layers of protection in the case of escalation. The key to this is fuel.

An important improvement of the Su-35 over the Su-27/J-11B is the ability to carry external fuel tanks, which would be a major factor limiting the Su-27, which does not have aerial refueling capability (Sino-Defense.com). This is in addition to a 20% increase in fuel capacity over the Su-27 and air refueling capability. This later capability is another important part of China’s strategy of increasing loiter times and distances. “Loiter time” is the amount of time an aircraft can spend in the vicinity of a target, as opposed to reaching the area and returning to base.

Generally there are three ways to increase loiter time. Smaller, slower aircraft like the U.S.’s Predator or Global Hawk drones can stay aloft for many hours at a time due to their long wings and lack of a pilot. The other two options are larger fuel tanks or refueling capability. China’s nascent aerial refueling program is not yet fully proven and does not currently involve any naval planes, and is estimated at becoming operationally effective between 2015-2020 ("Trends in Chinese Aerial Refueling Capacity for Maritime Purposes,” in Chinese Aerospace Power: Evolving Maritime Roles, 2011).

In the case of the Su-35, it would likely be able to outfly and outshoot any Philippine or Vietnamese aircraft (or surface vessel for that matter) largely rendering competing territorial claims a moot point....

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 20 Oct 2013 23:13

PLAN's two recent drills

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 Oct 2013 10:15

It is to be seen if Chinese can adhere to this latest pact. It has no tailing and no superiority clause.

India , China sign Ten-point Border Defence Cooperation Agreement

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Oct 2013 11:18

good footage of anti missile aerosol decoy launch there.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Oct 2013 18:32

More pertinent to the topic:

Sept, 2013 :: China’s New Stealth Fighter Gambit

Was the jet crafted from stolen intelligence? Could it be used on China's new aircraft carrier? With photos appearing online of another Chinese stealth fighter, questions are mounting.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Oct 2013 19:35

Recent events ensure low expectations from PM’s China visit

Two headed hydra that "China" really is:

The manner in which the PLA appears to be distancing itself from the Border Defence Cooperation Agreement (BDCA) likely to be signed during the PM’s visit is interesting. A Delhi-based senior PLA officer recently observed that whether the agreement is signed or not would be a “political” decision. Indicating that the PLA’s concerns regarding construction of border defences by India are not addressed in the BDCA, he said the PLA is no longer involved and that state councillor Yang Jiechi will now report on the matter to the politburo. Considering that the PLA has a dominant voice on issues concerning territorial integrity and sovereignty, these remarks merit attention.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Oct 2013 00:18

The shape of things to come.

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 1023000133

Mobile 5 naval exercise hints at future PLA carrier battle group
Staff Reporter 2013-10-23

The PLA Navy Sovremenny-class guided-missile destroyer Ningbo fires a missile. (Photo/PLAN)

China's navy is currently conducting the Mobile 5 naval exercise in an undisclosed location in the Western Pacific. The exercise aims to train the PLA to take on a US aircraft carrier, and it also demonstrates what a Chinese carrier battle group will look like in the future, according to Duowei News, an outlet run by overseas Chinese.

All three fleets of the PLA Navy were mobilized for the country's largest naval exercise on Oct. 18, with their surface combat vessels separated into blue and red forces to fight each other in open sea, training under real combat conditions. Prior to the exercise, 100 warships and submarines from the North Sea Fleet conducted a live-fire drill in the Yellow Sea on Oct. 17 with the support of 30 military aircraft.

This is the second time this year that the North Sea Fleet has conducted such an exercise, following on from the Maritime Cooperation 2013 joint naval exercise with the Russian Navy in July. After the joint exercise with the Russian Pacific Fleet in the Yellow Sea, the North Sea Fleet was immediately deployed to the Western Pacific for another drill, the report said.

The Mobile 5 exercise, which will last until early November, is also the eighth time this year that vessels of the PLA Navy have penetrated the First Island Chain, extending from the Aleutians to the Philippines. Beijing is sending a clear message to the United States and Japan via the exercise that its navy has the capability of challenging the US containment strategy for China.

From photos and information released by the official website of the PLA Navy, the Duowei News stated that the Chinese carrier battle group is likely to be formed with the country's first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, a Type 052C destroyer, four Type 054A frigates, two Type 041 Yuan-class diesel-electric submarines or a Type 093 Xia-class nuclear-powered missile submarine.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 24 Oct 2013 01:00

So they indent to treat the carrier like the SSBN? Keep it close to shore? The SSK and CODAD powered 054a are a joke and will never be able to travel far or challenge USN CBG. The SSN is too noisy for USN to bother about. Has IN ever used Kora class as part of vikrants CBG?

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 24 Oct 2013 08:59

PLA recent Mission Action military exercise

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Oct 2013 09:07

that navy article is a not accurate. the Shang class SSN would be primary carrier escort, while the FFGs will sanitize the general area of enemy submarines and AAW DDGs provide the SAM umbrella. nothing wrong with CODAD except maybe top speed. PLAAF/PLANAF will arrange for a strong land based strike, AWACS and air cover element. Yuan/Song/Kilos would be lurking as mobile minefields to target any subs found lurking around.

perfectly adequate to control and dominate the south china sea upto the philipines and edge of indonesia and east china sea near taiwan....none of the neighbours alone or in combination except japan have remotely the resources to get into a fight with PLAN+PLAAF combination.

its a matter of time before they are arm twisted into making concessions about the reefs and oil bearing regions. china has already established oil rig type "settlements" and even a small town on such atolls.

the US can do its pivot and prepare for a war that will never come to Soko and Japan...because victory is already being obtained by other means.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 24 Oct 2013 10:00

^^ and also victory means that you do not have to fight the physical war at all because of both

a. economic victory and the other person being beholden to your economy.

b. you are too strong to touch.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 27 Oct 2013 00:08

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/10/25 ... r-1%C2%A2/

US aircraft carrier for scrap

Some one would have loved to copy it.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Oct 2013 18:22

More on the PLAN's nuclear sub development.

http://www.marinelink.com/news/developm ... 60257.aspx

China's G4 Nuclear Submarine Development
MarineLink.com
Monday, October 28, 2013, 4:29 AM

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/china ... e/1188205/

China displays nuclear submarine fleet for first time
PTI : Beijing, Mon Oct 28 2013,

China has displayed its nuclear submarines for the first time in over four decades to showcase their "excellent safety" record as part of a naval drill.

The submarines were shown as taking part in exercises along with naval ships and helicopters.

The drill is the first open-sea drill in which maritime and air forces from all three of China's fleets have taken part, state-run Xinhua news agency reported on Monday.

"We are China's first nuclear submarine force, and the 42 years since our establishment have witnessed our success in avoiding nuclear accidents," Rear Admiral Gao Feng, commander of one of the People's Liberation Army navy's submarine bases, told reporters in Qingdao port.

While state television has shown the footage of the submarines taking part in the exercises, which according to the official media is the first time in 42 years ever since it began inducting nuclear submarines in the fleet, the print media highlighted its safety track with no accident record.

The exercises in the west Pacific went on "despite foreign disturbance", the People's Liberation Army said.

Foreign military vessels and reconnaissance aircraft, reportedly from Japan and US remained in the exercise area for an undue time monitoring Chinese activity in the close distance and seriously disturbing the naval drill, reports said.

Chinese authorities had previously publicised the exercise areas via international maritime organisations in accordance with international practice, alerting foreign vessels and planes to take precautions.

Though the media has not revealed the numbers of nuclear subs, international defence experts estimate it has eight to 10 subs backed by 50 to 60 diesel and electric submarines.

The strength of the Chinese navy was estimated to be around 2.25 lakh personnel.

The decision to display N-Subs for the first time shows China's confidence in the defence build-up and capability, defence analysts said. It also demonstrates the transparency of China's nuclear assets, which the west is demonstrating for long, they said.

Handling the nuclear submarines equipped with nuclear weapons is a tremendous achievement because almost all of the other naval powers in the world, including the US and Russia, have had nuclear accidents on nuclear submarines, Gao said.

With the Chinese making rapid strides in expanding its sub fleet with both N & conventional AIP subs,Taiwan looks yet again to the US for subs.It has pursued sub acquisition fro decades,with western nations reluctant to sell them subs for falling out with China and losing out economically.Indian could've sold Taiwan U-209 details as the Germans secretly sold the same-our version,the U-209 1500 to the S.Africans!

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 1027000079

Taiwan wants to buy submarines: Ma
CNA 2013-10-27

Taiwan's president Ma Ying-jeou has reiterated Taiwan's desire to purchase submarines from the United States in an interview with an American paper earlier this week.

"Some weapons are high on the list of items that we hope to procure, but we currently have no way to purchase them. Submarines, for instance, are one of those items," Ma told the Washington Post in Taipei Thursday.

According to the Chinese transcript of the interview released by the Presidential Office on its website Friday, Ma responded to a broad range of questions in the interview, including cross-strait ties, relations with the United States, US arms sales to Taiwan and his achievements since assuming office.

Over the past five years, Ma said, the US executive branch has sought congressional approval for the sale of three packages of arms to Taiwan, worth a total of US$18.3 billion — the highest amount recorded in nearly two decades.

Some of the weapons in the three packages were ordered 10 years ago and will be delivered successively in the coming years, Ma said, adding that Taiwan took delivery of the first of 12 P-3C submarine-hunting aircraft in late September, with three more set for delivery by the end of this year.

Noting that the P-3C is an advanced anti-submarine aircraft, Ma said its addition to Taiwan's arsenal will help enhance the country's defense abilities.

While Taiwan can produce some of the defensive weapons it needs to protect national security, it still needs to purchase some US-built arms, he noted.

"Submarines are one of these items," Ma said, adding that it is very important for Taiwan to maintain a defense force strong enough to deter invasion.

He said Taiwan-US relations are mutually beneficial, citing as proof the fact that in 2011, then-US secretary of state Hillary Clinton described Taiwan as an "important security and economic partner of the US."

In an article on its official website Thursday, the Washington Post wrote that "the US has been a key defender of Taiwan, but it worries about anything that might complicate its already difficult relationship with China."

The paper quoted Richard Bush, a former American Institute in Taiwan chairman, as saying that thanks to the warming cross-strait ties, the issue of Taiwan no longer dominates US-China relations, allowing Washington to tackle other divisive bilateral issues such as cybersecurity, Syria and intellectual property protection.

In Thursday's interview, Ma described relations with the US in recent years as good.

He also stressed that continuing sales of US weapons are essential for Taiwan.

On the predictions by some US scholars that US support for Taiwan will decline in the face of China's growing global political and economic clout, Ma said that this has never been a mainstream view in either US academic circles or the US government.

He told the paper confidently that Taiwan-US cooperation in the economic and security fields will increase steadily rather than dwindle gradually, because "the United States wants rebalancing toward Asia and the Republic of China has played a very important role in Asia."

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Nov 2013 16:08

China's growing nuclear sub threat.Ck. the link for a video clip.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/11 ... reach-u-s/

Technology
China Unveils Nuclear Submarines That Could Reportedly Reach U.S.
Nov. 1, 2013 10:40am Liz Klimas

Earlier this week China unveiled its first-generation nuclear submarine, which it was decommissioning after more than 40 years. But later iterations of warhead-equipped submarines operated by the country’s People’s Liberation Army were also revealed to have the capability to strike the United States, according some reports.
China Decommissions and Declassifies First Generation Nuclear Submarine

This undated picture shows a nuclear-powered submarine of the People’s Liberation Army Navy’s North Sea Fleet preparing to dive into the sea. (AFP/AFP/Getty Images)

Want China Times, the English news website of the Taiwan-based China Times News Group, pointed out that the photos released of the country’s submarine fleet by the state-run news agency focused more on the older Xia-class nuclear submarines than the newer Type 094 Jin-class ballistic missile submarine.

Global Times, a paper published by the country’s Community party, noted military expert Du Wenglong saying that the release of the photos served to show the world that China is capable of launching ballistic missiles like other world powers.

Although not mentioned in the Global Times article, Want China Times reported that a JL-2 submarine-launched ballistic missile could reach the western United States if fired from the Bohai Sea. In a separate article, the same publication elaborated that the range of a JL-2 missile is 8,000 kilometers, making them a “considerable threat to U.S. national security.”

The Washington Times gave even more details about attacks on the U.S. from Chinese submarines, sourcing a Global Times article that inexplicably did not appear available on the site:

In 2010, a new class of missile sub, the Type 094 Jin class, entered the service. It is capable of launching 12 to 16 JL-2 missiles with a range of about 8,700 miles, covering much of the continental U.S. with single or multiple, independently targetable re-entry vehicle warheads.

Chinese calculations for nuclear attacks on the U.S. are chillingly macabre.

“Because the Midwest states of the U.S. are sparsely populated, in order to increase the lethality, [our] nuclear attacks should mainly target the key cities on the West Coast of the United States, such as Seattle, Los Angeles, San Francisco and San Diego,” the Global Times said.

“The 12 JL-2 nuclear warheads carried by one single Type 094 SSBN can kill and wound 5 million to 12 million Americans,” the Global Times reported.

map showing radiation range

The Washington Times included this map from the Global Times report showing what could represent the range of radiation if a nuclear missile were to be launched against the western United States. (Image source: Washington Times via Global Times)

The Foreign Times reported Xinhua issued photographs about the “declassified” the Xia-class submarines Sunday, saying they could “gallop to the depths of the ocean, serving as mysterious forces igniting the sound of thunder in the deep sea.” Xinhua added that the subs are like “assassin’s mace that would make adversaries tremble.”
China Nuclear Submarine Fleet

This black and white photo taken in 1977 and released by the Chinese Navy on Sunday, Oct. 27, 2013, shows China’s Long March 2 nuclear submarine during a launch ceremony in China. (AP Photo)

The country was decommissioning these first-generation submarines, which were launched in the 1970s. According to the Global Times, Chairman Mao Zedong in the 1950s initiated the program to build nuclear submarines to prevent “nuclear blackmailing and monopoly.”
China Nuclear Submarine Fleet

In a sign of growing confidence, China’s navy gave Chinese media on Sunday, Oct. 27, 2013 unprecedented publicity on its first nuclear submarine fleet, one of its most secretive military programs. (AP)

While some considered this show a statement of the country’s military muscle, China Daily reported it was intended as an opportunity for transparency:

As a responsible power and peace-loving country, China is increasing its military transparency step by step. In its national defense white paper in April, the Chinese military for the first time made public its military strength and composition, and the media coverage of the nuclear submarines is another step toward greater transparency. It’s really ridiculous for some countries and their media to call on China to increase its military transparency on the one hand, and criticize China’s efforts to do so as flexing its military might on the other.

In fact, this week’s coverage was not the media debut of the nation’s nuclear submarine fleet. As early as the 1980s, the People’s Daily reported on the fleet and its underwater rocket launching capabilities.

Hence, the latest reports are not China’s military suddenly revealing their muscles, as the fleet and its capabilities are not some secret weapon suddenly being revealed to scare other countries.

china submarine

This undated picture shows Chinese navy soldiers standing on a nuclear-powered submarine of the People’s Liberation Army Navy’s North Sea Fleet at an undisclosed location. Beijing has put its nuclear-powered submarine fleet on public display, with state media on Oct. 29, 2013 touting the move as unprecedented and necessary to show other countries China’s strike capabilities as territorial tensions mount. CHINA OUT AFP PHOTO (AFP/AFP/Getty Images)

Check out this footage released from China showing the fleet:

Taylor Fravel, a Chinese security expert at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, told the Foreign Times he believes this transparency showed that the People’s Liberation Army “has become more willing to discuss its capabilities.”

A Pentagon spokesperson told Foreign Times it “welcomes increased transparency from China as it helps reduce regional tensions and promotes stability.”

This year, the Chinese navy completed is fourth-generation nuclear submarines.

(H/T: Washington Times)

John · Post by **John** » 02 Nov 2013 22:34

Singha wrote:that navy article is a not accurate. the Shang class SSN would be primary carrier escort, while the FFGs will sanitize the general area of enemy submarines and AAW DDGs provide the SAM umbrella. nothing wrong with CODAD except maybe top speed.

Well 054 will not be able to accompany the fleet for any missions though they will be great for patrol (like Lafayette frigate). CODAD will be big hamper in any missions because there will be times the fleet will need to go top speed (interdiction etc). There is reason why P-17s are CODOG even though former config is far cheaper and more compact propulsion choice. Royal navy came up with best propulsion configuration for a Frigate with Type 23s, CODLAG makes' Type 23 great for hunting soviet subs or escorting Invincible class.

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 08 Nov 2013 19:50

Yet another Chinese UAV or a UCAV perhaps (similar to Global Hawk).

Full Article : http://www.businessinsider.com/new-chin ... 13-11?IR=T

negi · Post by **negi** » 09 Nov 2013 14:04

RN and USN are moving to IEP with Type 45 and Zumwalt class. The cost is pretty high though. In most of the IN exercises till date nothing outruns the venerable R class the power of it's COGAG and smaller size is simply too much for rest of the ships in our fleet, it has shorter legs though.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Nov 2013 18:27

cutting edge propulsion & cost savings is not a immediate concern for us, because we dont run 6-9 month deployments. IEP will be cheaper and COTS in a decade..we can move in then.

our immediate concerns are networking for AAW, LRSAM , ASW technology and long range radar. the P15A, Barak8, MF-STAR, MRMP, Sea king replacement, P75 and P8I are absolutely necessary to be successful to lay the foundation of the new navy.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 Nov 2013 09:48

Satellite imagery reveals mystery 'supergun' in Chinese desert

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Nov 2013 16:59

China upping the ante .Time for it to "teach Japan a lesson" as in '62 what?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/n ... se-senkaku

China imposes airspace restrictions over Japan-controlled Senkaku islands
China says it is exercising self-defence right but experts say move will exacerbate tension between the two nations

Saturday 23 November 2013 10.58 GMT

A Japanese coastguard ship near the disputed Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands. Photograph: EPA

China has tried to establish its authority over Japanese-controlled islands in the East China sea by demanding that all aircraft flying in the region obey its rules or face "emergency defensive measures".

The East China sea air defense identification zone came into effect from 10am local time on Saturday when the Chinese defence ministry issued a map of the area, which includes the uninhabited East China sea islands.

The ministry said all aircraft entering the zone must notify Chinese authorities and warned they would be subject to emergency military measures if they did not identify themselves or obey orders.

It said it would "identify, monitor, control and react to" any air threats or unidentified flying objects coming from the sea.

"China's armed forces will adopt defensive emergency measures to respond to aircraft that do not cooperate in the identification or refuse to follow the instructions," it added.

Any military dispute between China and Japan over the islands would involve the United States because of the terms of the second world war settlement with Japan.

Both China and Japan claim the island, which the Japanese call the Senkakus and the Chinese call the Daioyu.

"This is a necessary measure taken by China in exercising its self-defence right," a Chinese defence ministry spokesman said in a statement. "It is not directed against any specific country or target. It does not affect the freedom of overflight in the related airspace."

But Narushige Michishita, director of the security and international studies programme at the National Graduate Institute for Policy Studies in Tokyo, said: "China is playing a dangerous game here. It is certainly an escalatory action and might prolong and exacerbate the ongoing tension."

Patrol ships from both countries have been shadowing each other near the islets, raising fears that a confrontation could develop into a clash.

There have also been several incidents involving military aircraft flying close to each other. In October, Chinese military aircraft flew near Japan three days in a row, and Japan scrambled fighter jets each time in response.

Protests erupted throughout China last year to denounce the Japanese government's purchase of the islands from private ownership.

In recent years, China has been embroiled in rows with several neighbouring countries including the Philippines and Vietnam over islands in the East and the South China seas. South Korea and Taiwan also claim the Senkaku islands.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 23 Nov 2013 19:47

Quite a few Chinese "nationalists" believe that the Mutual Co-operation and Security Agreement between the USA and Japan won't come into effect as the Americans are more likely to sue for peace and force Japan to make accommodations to China rather than escalate the situation. Also, the current American administration is too timid to raise the ante with China and just like the Scarborough Shoal incident, China will try to keep the US out and "creep" into the Senkakus strengthening their claim. And once they get their foot in the door, the Japanese will never be able to get it out.

The series of "incidents" and the meek international response to them have disturbing parallels to the early days of WW2 when Germany "creeped" its way and nibbled bits and pieces of territory from its neighbors on one pretext or another.

gunjur · Post by **gunjur** » 23 Nov 2013 22:33

^^^
PLA Air Force conducts first patrol in air defense identification zone

The People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force conducted its first air patrol after the establishment of the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone.

Shen Jinke, spokesman for the PLA Air Force, said that two large scouts carried out the patrol mission, with early warning aircraft and fighters providing support and cover.

"The patrol is in line with international common practices, and the normal flight of international flights will not be affected," Shen said.

Shen said that the Chinese armed forces are capable of effective control over the zone, and will take measures to deal with air threats to protect the security of the country's airspace.

On Saturday morning, the Chinese government issued a statement on establishing the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone. It also issued an announcement on the aircraft identification rules and a diagram for the zone.

More than japan's reaction, what will obama say/do?? China will provoke yankees more and more going forward. It should be interesting to see if chinese strictly enforce their red line when obama didn't/couldn't.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 23 Nov 2013 23:17

If anybody thinks the US is going to commit its forces over the Senkaku Islands they have lost their mind.

Will the US provide certain services to Japan? Yes we will. But we're not going to potentilly send Americans to death over China/Japan territorial disputes such as the Snekakus. Good Grief!

If the mainland of Japan should be attacked then that would be a game changer however.

We will also provide certain services to the Philippines. But again, a Chinese attack on the main Phillippine Islands is a no go and a game changer.

The Chinese should be vey carefull on any attacks upon our close allies.