India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Oct 2013 18:43

Not one mentioned yet.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 06 Oct 2013 19:19

Karan M wrote:Not one mentioned yet.

even the truck mounted 105mm gun has no takers IIRC.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Oct 2013 04:18

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20466

A PARADIGM SHIFT!!!!!

but heck the private - public partnership is failing!!!!!!

this is a shame for the private.

what is happening? why this sudden outburst of feelings? he knows very well how our kind of system works.

i think R&D ---> Production Engineering -----> Production Process -----> Product : gaps in between are large!!!!!
Dr Saraswat should focus on these gaps, and perhaps the nodes as well.

ps:
for the heck of it.. how about beg, borrow, or stealing : http://i2.wp.com/www.toptensworld.com/w ... 5/F-22.jpg

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Oct 2013 19:57

pankajs wrote:
<SNIP>

i) As desired by Army, two 155 mm x45 cal Guns are planned to be offered to Army by March 2013 for evaluation. Functionality, Range, Accuracy and Consistency trial of these two indigenously manufactured Guns have been successfully carried out at Central Proof Establishment (CPE), Itarsi and PXE Balasore during December, 2012. The development of these Guns has been a collaborative effort of all the stake holders viz Army, OFB, DRDO and DGQA. Such an exercise has been done for the first time in the country.

Is the 45 Cal gun being developed basis the blue-prints of our own Bofors? And how has the technology being developed for 45 Cal gun given the fact that ours is 39 Cal weapon?

OFB is presently working on development of some important projects like Up-Gunning of 130 mm M 46 Guns to 155 mm/45 Caliber MK-IV, Development of 155 mm X 52 Caliber FH Mounted Gun system with Electronic Modules<SNIP>

So, M-46 up-gunning means that operational requirements of the IA will be met and taken care of. This is a good path to take.

Secondly - the news item talks about "155 mm X 52 Caliber FH Mounted Gun system" - This is the second largest category of our FARP. Question is this - which 155mm gun are they mounting on a wheeled platform?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Oct 2013 20:35

FH= Field, Howitzer?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Oct 2013 21:24

ramana wrote:FH= Field, Howitzer?

Yes - Field Howitzer.

FARP - Field Artillery Rationalization Plan.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 11 Oct 2013 21:26

rohitvats wrote:FARP - Field Artillery Rationalization Plan.

They had to confuse that well established acronym with this, didn't they?

I had to read that twice to realize what they were referring to!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Oct 2013 09:15

Glad they didn't use the letter T or C

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 12 Oct 2013 11:40

americans are expert acronym makers;

SEAL,
SWAT
JDAM
SLAM-ER

etc.etc.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 12 Oct 2013 16:33

mahadevbhu wrote:americans are expert acronym makers;

SEAL,
SWAT
JDAM
SLAM-ER

etc.etc.

America-bashing, are we?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Oct 2013 21:46

khans create acrononyms out of programs, projects and products. they are not dumbs.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Oct 2013 22:02

anupmisra wrote:
mahadevbhu wrote:americans are expert acronym makers;

SEAL,
SWAT
JDAM
SLAM-ER

etc.etc.
America-bashing, are we?

He belongs to the...

Ok, now we can get back to the topic ...

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 13 Oct 2013 00:59

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Oct 2013 08:36

Ashton Carter quits.

So back to square one?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 Oct 2013 10:19

Correct ramana. I was about to mention that.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 13 Oct 2013 13:26

Oh no need to worry joo ess will send another Mr. Mouth Platitudes to us.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Oct 2013 05:11

Ministry row latest blow to India's defense modernization

Ashton Carter quits, blow to US-India defence ties

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Oct 2013 05:28

It better be a blow, if ties are based on individuals rather policies. These kind of relationships are actually the drivers for ultimate poodledom.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 15 Oct 2013 06:56

Is this the same Praful Patel who was aviation minister and had basically put Air India over a barrel?

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 15 Oct 2013 08:19

Is there any information on what our objections are to

the Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA); and Logistics Support Agreement (LSA)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Oct 2013 21:07

Gentlemen, not to interrupt this discussion but its best continued in some other thread. This is the local R&D thread.

Speaking of which:

Good news. Cyclone did not harm missile facilities..
http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 34478.aspx

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Oct 2013 21:13

CSL in Page 46
GKN Aerospace in Page 47
MiG-29 simulator in Page 49
http://www.aeromag.in/sites/default/fil ... ct2013.pdf

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 17 Oct 2013 16:11

India to display weapon platforms at KINTEX 2013 in Seoul

Akash, LCA, radars etc.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 19 Oct 2013 00:24

HAL rejects IAF proposal to produce Pilatus trainer aircraft
http://idrw.org/?p=28168

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has rejected a proposal of Air Force to produce Pilatus aircraft in its facilities against the backdrop of a tussle between the two on whether to procure an imported trainer aircraft or develop it indigenously.
IAF has already placed an order for 75 Pilatus trainer aircraft and is planning to procure 106 more of them after the completion of the delivery of first lot by the end of 2017.
HAL, however, is in favour of developing the aircraft indigenously.
IAF had proposed that HAL should licence produce the Pilatus aircraft in its facility but this was rejected by the aerospace giant saying it was working on a project of its own on the issue, senior IAF officials said here.
HAL is working towards producing HTT-40 basic trainer aircraft which is expected to fly by 2015.
IAF and HAL have been debating on the issue for over a year now but it came to fore recently when IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne wrote to Defence Minister A K Antony, asking the government to procure the Pilatus instead of the one proposed by the HAL.
The IAF chief has also told the government that cost of the HTT-40 aircraft being developed by the HAL would be higher than that of the Pilatus aircraft.
IAF has also told government that the indigenous aircraft would be 25 per cent more expensive than the imported Pilatus.
According to HAL, the aircraft proposed by it would be much more advanced than the Pilatus as it will have weapon firing capabilities also along with other advancements.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 Oct 2013 07:31

Mock Up, as I understand. LCA models are not free to go to Seoul as IOC is the prime target.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Oct 2013 17:55

Pragati?

Shrinking budget worries DRDO head
Jatinder Kaur Tur, TNN | Oct 20, 2013, 02.56 AM IST
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 409185.cms

HYDERABAD: In its first major step towards export of indigenous defence products and systems developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), India will be showcasing more than a dozen of its products before more than 30 countries at the International Aerospace and Defence Exhibition 'ADEX-2013' at Seoul, South Korea, from October 29 to November 3. And a significant chunk of these products are from the Hyderabad-based labs of DRDO including Research Centre Imarat (RCI), Defence Research and Development Laboratory and other facilities at the Missile Complex.

Amongst the defence systems and products up for export are Pragati (surface-to-surface tactical missile system) developed by RCI and DRDL, babies like Akash (surface-to-air missile system) and Astra (beyond visual range air-to-air missile). Impressive list includes Abhyas, a high-speed expendable aerial target designed for autonomous flying with the help of an autopilot, Airborne Early Warning and Control system, IFF Interrogator (Identification Friend or Foe System), weapon locating radar and other surveillance and battlefield radars. D

DRDO's Explosive Detection Kit has already been grabbed by a US-based company.

Disclosing this at the Missile Complex in Kanchanbagh, scientific advisor to raksha mantri and director general DRDO, Avinash Chander expressed concern over the shrinking budget for DRDO. "It has come down to 5.5% from the previous 6. 2%, and given the current dynamics regarding depreciation of rupee against dollar, the percentage is actually even lesser. With the current policy of indigenous production, discouraging import of technology and products, the government must increase the allocation for R&D as it would fetch huge returns tomorrow", said Chander, adding that the budget allocation for DRDO should go up to 9% of the total allocated sum for the defence sector.

He further said that world over, the time taken from R&D to defence capabilities is about 15 years and another 20-25 years are taken for economic returns. "So far, India is the biggest importer of defence systems but the trend can be reversed completely if more budget is allocated to R&D in addition to industrial participation for the same", he said, adding that the Indian industry, especially Andhra Pradesh which has contributed immensely to major projects like Agni V, would reap huge benefits by taking a leap into defence production. The scientific advisor to defence minister maintained that investment in R&D would be a game changer in indigenous defence production bringing down the costs phenomenally

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Oct 2013 02:22

developing alone is not enough.. we need to productionize it
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/364 ... amera.html

it has dual use tech here.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 21 Oct 2013 06:44

SaiK wrote:developing alone is not enough.. we need to productionize it
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/364 ... amera.html

it has dual use tech here.

This is great news, SaiK ji. Thanks for sharing.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Oct 2013 07:17

absolutely, i am really excited just for this alone:

“A one-metre by one-metre detector made out of our material will be able to detect a candle light at one-third of the distance between the earth and the moon (more than 1 lakh km),” said Kallol Roy, one of the team members.

imagine quick installation of such devices on our borders.

plus we could have precision extended range snipers for army

night vision for LCA-tejas

video based homing devices - during night ops

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 21 Oct 2013 07:39

and being able to detect the exhaust plume of stealth fighters

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Oct 2013 10:13

how about mid-course detection and ABM application - if ballistics reflect or can emit that much light, we can install 2x2 meter or bigger space scanners - multiple in that?

lotsa applications.. nothing limits in civilian security to defence.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 21 Oct 2013 19:54

SaiK wrote:developing alone is not enough.. we need to productionize it
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/364 ... amera.html

it has dual use tech here.

Yeah that's how we roll

Now which Indian company will come forward to manufacture this tech. after it has matured enough is the big question.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Oct 2013 08:40

pliss to make a casual visit to gdf/ot thread. something interesting offshoot discussion leading to perhaps a kevlar replacement. something our aerospace material sci grads can work on.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 Oct 2013 08:45

INMAS and DTU have signed up for applied research and Biotechnology

DRDO-Academia Partnership: INMAS and DTU sign MoU

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 22 Oct 2013 23:25

While reading about fresh MBRL order to our pvt. sector from the link posted in Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments thread my eyes fell on this piece of news

Hero MotoCorp ready to fit own-developed engines

A little over two years since Hero MotoCorp parted ways with Honda Motor Company of Japan, the country’s largest two-wheeler manufacturer is set to introduce independently developed engines in new products, starting 2014.

Anil Dua, senior vice-president (marketing and sales), said: “We have successfully tested three engines. These will be introduced in some of our products next year.” Mashallah bhwat an achievement but wait what is this I read further

He declined to share details about the segments but said these would gradually be installed across most products in its range. Hero has developed new engines of 100cc, 110cc and 250cc capacity with technical partners. Prior to the termination of the joint venture, Honda supplies technology for products which Hero marketed in India.

Apart from the new engines, Hero is set to commercially launch its first motorcycle without the technology of its erstwhile partner, in 2014. The Hero Group and Honda had agreed to end their 26-year-old joint venture, Hero Honda, with the Indian partner agreeing to buy out Honda’s 26 per cent stake in the company for Rs 3,842 crore, in December 2010.

“It has just been over two years since we commenced our solo journey. In this short span, we have made significant upgradation of our existing line, incorporating next-generation technology and features. This is a reiteration of our capability to develop indigenous technologies,” Pawan Munjal, chief executive officer and managing director, said last week. The company unveiled 15 new products on October 10, to hit the market during the next six months. These include a refreshed top-end KarizmaR motorcycle, the ZMR, Splendor I-Smart and a new variant of the Pleasure scooter. Munjal isaid when Hero announced its new identity in 2011, it had promised 50 new products in three years. “So, there are 35 more to come,” he said. All good and dandy but read still further

Sources in Hero MotoCorp told Business Standard the company has rights to use the new products sourced from Honda till 2017 but the target is to have on road its own range of two-wheelers by 2016. While Hero’s research and development team has been mandated to evaluate consumer requirements in the home market, technical tie-ups have also been forged with Italian design firm Engines Engineering, US-based performance bike manufacturer Erik Buell Racing and Austrian engine developer AVL.

“Our ultimate aim is to have our partners as an extended R&D arm for Hero MotoCorp. These partners have huge specifications available and we want to be known as a full-fledged global two-wheeler brand eventually,” Munjal has said. The company is investing Rs 450 crore to set up a R&D centre near Jaipur in Rajasthan. The facility would be commissioned in the first quarter of 2015.

Separately sharing insights on consumer sentiments in the domestic two-wheeler market, Dua said that the company expected sales to be strong in the festive season. “Hero is approaching the festive season with a lot of optimism. Based on our retail sales, the new offering we are introducing in the market, this should be a record season for us. Last year, we retailed 1.1 million units in October and November. This year should be better.”

Volumes at Hero MotoCorp have grown by 0.58% to 2.91 million units in the first six months of this fiscal. Sales of two-wheelers in the domestic market have increased by 3.51% to 7.01 million units in the same period.

So all in all Hero Motocorp. is largely dependent upon foreign technological partners and has close to zero to show w.r.t. having developed "indigenous" technology and seems to be passing off screwdriver tech as "indigenous". Now where have we seen the same thing happening ???? DPSU's (no Bharat Ratna for guessing this).

Hero motocorp. were in a 26 yr. JV and learned exactly ghanta while passing off screw driver tech as "indigenous". So much so for the line "Indian Pvt. companies are at the fore front of creating/absorbing technology"

vina · Post by **vina** » 23 Oct 2013 04:56

Hero motocorp. were in a 26 yr. JV and learned exactly ghanta while passing off screw driver tech as "indigenous". So much so for the line "Indian Pvt. companies are at the fore front of creating/absorbing technology"

To be fair to Hero, the JV with Honda explicitly prohibited Hero from developing it's own tech. That is exactly why TVS and Bajaj gave the ungli to Suzuki and Kawasaki long ago and developed their own engines and chassis. You really should look at TVS, Bajaj for this. Hero is last in the game and is now playing catch up with Honda going alone and threatening to devour them.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 23 Oct 2013 06:29

There has always been a lot of cross pollination among the Americans and Euros (incl Russia) specially in engines since the Industrial Revolution. They kept and circulated the secrets "in the family" so to speak until the party was crashed in turn by the Japanese, South Koreans, Taiwanese, Chinese and now Indians. Matter of time.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Oct 2013 06:42

tvs did recently tie up with bmw for sub 500 cc motorcycles in desh.. with no equity, and it is a joint facility and technology sharing partnership. tvs will invest, and this is the kind takes intellectual property to next level.

the reason, i keep rehashing that throw away this ToTing model in defence, and get to design by first principles. you may skip a version or two, but you will come back with bang.

kaveri is what we need to do it all indigineous with no external support.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 24 Oct 2013 00:06

vina wrote:To be fair to Hero, the JV with Honda explicitly prohibited Hero from developing it's own tech. That is exactly why TVS and Bajaj gave the ungli to Suzuki and Kawasaki long ago and developed their own engines and chassis. You really should look at TVS, Bajaj for this. Hero is last in the game and is now playing catch up with Honda going alone and threatening to devour them.

What you say only shows Hero in more poor light, so they knowingly shot themselves in the foot while Honda created a huge user base for itself. Now they are running here and there making tech deals with foreign OEM's and talking big about having there partners as "extended R&D arms"

Good vision from TVS and Bajaj for doing that, their engine is well not up there when compared with Honda/Suzuki but if they are spending well and doing the needful then one day they will get there.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Oct 2013 01:50

vina wrote:
Hero motocorp. were in a 26 yr. JV and learned exactly ghanta while passing off screw driver tech as "indigenous". So much so for the line "Indian Pvt. companies are at the fore front of creating/absorbing technology"
To be fair to Hero, the JV with Honda explicitly prohibited Hero from developing it's own tech. That is exactly why TVS and Bajaj gave the ungli to Suzuki and Kawasaki long ago and developed their own engines and chassis. You really should look at TVS, Bajaj for this. Hero is last in the game and is now playing catch up with Honda going alone and threatening to devour them.

Yes, but to be honest, when the same occurs with BEL, HAL etc, we do excoriate them. This appears to be much the same case from the pvt side, who is usually held to be 10x better in negotiating tech transfer and also somehow leveraging it for the future
Seems our issues with R&D/TOT are systemic.. across the DPSU/Pvt divide.