Statewide and National runup to 2014 General elections

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 09 Oct 2013 23:16

Without NDA and UPA, RVP has no future unless in some alternate universe turd front rises from the grave.
Same for Lalu and his ilk.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Oct 2013 23:50

Atri wrote:caste based politics is ending.. Dalit will be last to realize this, but all the lohia-vadi OBC leaders are going to vanish one by one. The effects of Mandal are null and void now. INC played their card..

Modi's elevation is one of the landmark events in history of India. Kudos to sangh for playing it at right moment. This is not about victory in 2014. Even if NDA loses this one, the very basis of caste-politics is severely eroded now, at least in ganga valley. It will take time for these effects to seep in lands to south of narmada. first to fall in line will be MH. this was bound to happen. NM accelerated it tremendously.

I have a feeling that pretty much every region including southern states, except AP, will witness the gradual movement towards the loosening of caste-hold on politics. AP is a different story. even the current division is essentially a 1000-year old caste rivalry.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 10 Oct 2013 00:08

VikasRaina wrote:Without NDA and UPA, RVP has no future unless in some alternate universe turd front rises from the grave.
Same for Lalu and his ilk.

Paswan has already said that he will ally with congress, why the confusion.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Oct 2013 00:13

Atri wrote:
ramana wrote:Mandal was needed in the churning after the Emergency and has played out its effect.
why was mandal required after emergency? Please elucidate..

Essentially Mrs Gandhi broke the social contract with people of India. The peole would allow the Congress to do what they want so long as they gave good governance and left them alone. After the emergency and her defeat the whole of North India was in social chaos and were ripe for outside ofrces to wreak havoc. Mandal empowered the numerically large backward classes to feel they belong to the ruling elite and was a safety valve.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Oct 2013 15:32

Why Sangh Parivar, not Congress may cost Chouhan the MP poll

A whole lot of gas is being passed as analysis. People are becoming guilty by association.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 10 Oct 2013 15:43

President Pranab Mukherjee cuts short Bihar visit by a day

Hunkar Rally of Modi is still on. It will be on Oct 27 in Patna! Kudos to Pranab da for his consideration.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 10 Oct 2013 15:47

In then end by hook or crook Maya will be pulled into pre-poll alliance with congress. She will make INC dead because she breaks away INC's traditional votes in states around UP. Along with the huge unpopularity that INC is facing in this election, if BSP cuts 2% votes in Rajasthan, Delhi, Haryana, importantly Punjab it will be a rout for INC.

This is where my hunch of Maya as UPA PM candidate will be a huge success.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 10 Oct 2013 15:51

RajeshA wrote:President Pranab Mukherjee cuts short Bihar visit by a day

Hunkar Rally of Modi is still on. It will be on Oct 27 in Patna! Kudos to Pranab da for his consideration.

Congress did a mistake due to Mamata's gamble of Abdul Kalam and put their enemy in the hot seat. Ordinance and now this. It will be interesting to see how this man will pass the AP bifurcation.

niran · Post by **niran** » 10 Oct 2013 15:55

RajeshA wrote:President Pranab Mukherjee cuts short Bihar visit by a day

Hunkar Rally of Modi is still on. It will be on Oct 27 in Patna! Kudos to Pranab da for his consideration.

on 26 NaMo will adress an adivasi rally in Jodhpur Rajasthan where around 2 hundred thousand Bheels and other Adivasis will attend
next day it will be Bihar before kinda busy, no? but else he can do, almost all local units have sent up requests for NaMo.

WRT to Maya, all is Maya onree, few days ago Basapa had a rally for Dalits, and around 18,000 attended, contrast that with a rally during UP vidhan Sabha
election there were one hundred plus attendees, and still UP CM remained Maya onree, this time onree hard core will vote anti NaMo that too onree in and around Buland Sahar and Etah, rest of the regions the readings shows a clean sweep for NaMo, once again it is for NaMo not for Bhajapa.

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 10 Oct 2013 17:54

Atri wrote:caste based politics is ending.. Dalit will be last to realize this, but all the lohia-vadi OBC leaders are going to vanish one by one. The effects of Mandal are null and void now. INC played their card..

Modi's elevation is one of the landmark events in history of India. Kudos to sangh for playing it at right moment. This is not about victory in 2014. Even if NDA loses this one, the very basis of caste-politics is severely eroded now, at least in ganga valley. It will take time for these effects to seep in lands to south of narmada. first to fall in line will be MH. this was bound to happen. NM accelerated it tremendously.

Atri ji,

I'm not too sure but praying, that the jats of Rajasthan feel a belonging to what happened with the Mewati Jats of Muzzafarnagar.
Jats are a strong voting power here. They will decide many seats.

Many jat candidates on same seat could be another spoiler. It happened in some assembly seats last time, including the one of my native village. It so happened that my cousin uncle (Rajput) on BJP ticket reaped the benefit and won. Over here Jats normally don't vote for Rajputs and Muslims don't for BJP candidates (unless its a muslim). Both parties had openly revealed this policy of theirs to my father while he was campaigning for uncle. They told him 'We know your candidate is good, but we vote enmasse and will vote in such and such basis .. so difficult to give to your guy".
Anyway .. that was 5 years back.

Our people also make the mistake of voting on local factors (and caste etc) even in national elections. Wonder when we'll turn into smart voters. Our leaders and minorities have outsmarted us in the dance of democracy. Intend to give healthy competition

Regards,
Virendra

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 10 Oct 2013 20:02

niran wrote:
RajeshA wrote:President Pranab Mukherjee cuts short Bihar visit by a day

Hunkar Rally of Modi is still on. It will be on Oct 27 in Patna! Kudos to Pranab da for his consideration.
on 26 NaMo will adress an adivasi rally in Jodhpur Rajasthan where around 2 hundred thousand Bheels and other Adivasis will attend
next day it will be Bihar before kinda busy, no? but else he can do, almost all local units have sent up requests for NaMo.

WRT to Maya, all is Maya onree, few days ago Basapa had a rally for Dalits, and around 18,000 attended, contrast that with a rally during UP vidhan Sabha
election there were one hundred plus attendees, and still UP CM remained Maya onree, this time onree hard core will vote anti NaMo that too onree in and around Buland Sahar and Etah, rest of the regions the readings shows a clean sweep for NaMo, once again it is for NaMo not for Bhajapa.

Saar,
I have been wanting to say this for sometime. People keep saying that 'Dalits' are always with Maya onlee. I have my doubts on this. Specially, in this round with NaMo(a backward, Hindhuthva leader with development potential and without corruption charges).

Secondly, 'Dalits' are hindhus. I frankly think people should stop looking at 'Dalits' as non-Hindhus. All the wrong analysis starts from a mistaken view that 'Dalits' have converted and become either EJs or neo-buddhists or some such thing. That is all nonsense. There are EJs and neo-buddhists or commies or whatever in all groups. The game is to push these anti-Hindhu voices as the sole representative of 'Dalits'. This is done to fool both the 'Dalits' and 'non-dalits' and sow divisions between them.

A carefully planned narrative has been created to push 'Dalits', 'OBCs' and 'Vanvasis' feel as if they are not Hindhus and must ally with mujlims to protect themselves. Thats how the mullahs have continued to wield power in Hindhuthva 1.0 wave. Now, it seems to me that Hindhuthva has entered second phase and NaMo being a OBC is an important part of that phase. So far, Hindhuthva was sought to be characterized as only an 'upper-caste' phenomenon. Caste parties were supposed to wean away the Hindhus from Hindhuthva and protect Nahruvian 'secularism' and thereby the mullah's power structure.

If these caste parties break down, then that means all Hindhus will unite under the banner of Hindhuthva. The most direct impact of this new coalition will be on EJs, commies, jihadhis, and other such assorted 'secular' eco-system of kongis.

Before Hindhuthva 1.0(i.e. RJB movement), the political landscape had two poles: commies and kongis. Both of them were on same page on several issues. One such issue was there common aversion towards Hindhuism.

But with rise of Hindhuthva 1.0, commies and kongis were getting relegated. So, the caste parties had to fill in the vacuum to hold the fort. These caste parties would keep the Hindhus divided and the power would wrest with the mujlim votebank as to which caste party they would give the power. This experiment was of greatest success in UP and Vihar.

Now, that phase has run its course. After about 20 years, the next gen of Hindhuthva has started, this time with a backward face.

Thirdly, I think these riots in UP that have been happening(even before Muzzaffarnagar) should be properly understood. What happens is that, on the ground, the first Hindhus who become targets of jihadhis/EJs during riots are generally 'dalits', 'obcs' and 'vanvaasis'. That means that they are the ones who face the greatest brunt during riots.

So, while it is possible to create an sekloor alliance of jihadhis/EJs with 'dalits' or 'obcs' or 'vanvaasis' during peaceful times, it is not possible to create such an alliance during riots(or in the aftermath of riots). This is an important point in my view.

In recent riots in UP(not just Muzzaffarnagar but even before that, starting from the advent of this Akki regime), how many of the Hindhu victims were 'obcs', or 'dalits' or 'vanvaasis'?

Whenever the jihadis get brazen, the Hindhu communities that are immediately threatened or feel the impact on the ground are the ones like 'dalits', 'obcs' or 'vanvaasis'. It is their womenfolk, temples, property and lives which are first attacked.

'Dalits' and 'vanvaasis' can also be seen by the jihadis as soft targets and hence they become more brazen.

All that means, I think, that 'Dalits' will not support an alliance with the jihadhis this time. So, I think Maya will be forced to not ally with kongis by the supporters.

-----
Its now clear that PranabDa is playing his own game and that his ambitions have not ended. So, thats bad news for the Maino parivaar.

----
Gajan's recent announcement about Modi and Sushi aunty's visit to AP, I think, are related. Both sides are trying to stop Modi's alliance with CBN. Remember that when Modi came to AP, he was only courting the TDP. He did not concentrate of TRS or Gajan even for a minute. Yet, he lavishly praised NTR. So, as far as Modi is concerned, he is trying for an alliance with CBN. Frankly, I think Sushi is more doing internal damage. She should be concentrating on Dilli elections. Instead, she is trying to help the kongis in AP.

For all intents and purposes, now CBN has also joined Modi. Now, CBN will most probably be the national convener of NDA. So, it will be CBN's task to go and collect more allies. I think he will first look to Biju party. If Biju comes onboard. Then, they will both go and court Mamatha Didi. If she is onboard, then these three will go and court Maya.

I think Mamatha and Maya will say that they will be onboard if lotus gets more than 200 on its own.

I think lotus should try for covert pre-poll alliance with Maya.

----
Coming to T:
I think Kongis will not give it. See its a matter of leverage.

Suraj wrote:Look, the dynamics of negotiation is straightforward. You *never* let go of your leverage today in exchange for an assurance of future compliance. You get the compliance now in exchange for maybe handing over *some* of the leverage to them in future.

Put more simply, the stronger party's approach is always: 'what's mine (temples') is mine, and what's yours is what we are negotiating', not 'here's what's mine. now you give me what I seek and you dare not turn back on your word or you'll have to give me back my stuff'.

Say, you hand over the gold today, and GoI happily agrees never to interfere. Tomorrow it reneges. It responds to your irate 'but we had an AGREEMENT' with a response that if you don't keep quieten down, it'll make things even harder for you, and that you should be thankful for whatever printed money they hand you. What leverage do *you* now have ?

GoI floated a trial balloon suggesting it monetize the gold the temples hold. The leverage is the gold, in the temples' hand. It is their private property, not GoI's imputed baap ka maal to requisition. The appropriate response is to start by demanding fiscal reforms to temples as an initial gesture of faith, and that any handover of temple gold for bullion holding will be considered in conjunction with similar measures directed at the assets of all other faiths.

Link

The same applies to the situation of Kongis. Lets say that Kongis grant T. Once the pro-separate state people get the new state, then why will they vote for Kongis(or even TRS) ? That issue will be over. They will celebrate on that issue. But then they will think of future. Which means, they will have to think about inflation i.e. price rise and lack of governance and stupendous corruption.

The pro-united state people will anyway not vote for kongis in such a situation.

Basically, the only leverage that kongis have on Thelugus right now is 'decision on T'. Once the decision on T is taken(regardless of what that decision maybe), the leverage is lost.

Once that issue is over, the people will talk about regular issues. And the whole idea of bring the T issue is to stop people from talking about regular issues(like governance, price rise, ...etc).

So, kongis will not give up this leverage before elections. Anyway, the hallmark of the kongis is that they never take any concrete decisions. They like to keep things boiling.

They are positioning themselves to show that they are about to form T. Then, they will dissolve their Govt. and go for polls. Then, they will claim to pro-separate state voters that they were just about to form the T but could not because they did not have the time. So, they will ask voters to vote to them if they want T. I think thats their strategy.

But, I think its a bad bad strategy. First and foremost, T has about 17 MP seats. Even if kongis do very well, then they will get about 12 MP seats and maybe TRS will get 3 seats. Say, 2 seats for TDP. But, all this nonsense just for 12 MP seats? Thats miserable!

And in the process, they have burnt down the kongi party to its very roots in Kosta and Rayalaseema regions. They are simply gone.

So, if the kongis are trying for a third front in 2014 and want a re-election in 2016, then this is the worst thing that they could have done. I mean nobody could have planned it so well. No one could have destroyed the kongis so comprehensively. It seems as if Mainos are more intent on destroying kongis than NaMo himself.

In 2 years, people are not going to forget anything. So, the situation in Kosta and Seema is not going to change. The mood will remain anti-kongi. On the otherhand, any gains in T, will dissipate in 2 years. So, frankly kongis have committed suicide.

AP and Maha have been the places that have helped the kongi come to power. AP is gone. So, kongis are not likely to return to power ever. They are now, officially, like commies. They can only form third front alliances.

----------
Niran saar,
all the best for you on electoral work.

PS: I think 'Adhivaasis' is a term invented by EJs. Better to use the term 'Vanvaasis'. The first step is to stop using the terms created by the anti-Hindhus.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Oct 2013 20:31

I said somewhere BJP is making INC jump the stick in AP before the Modi visit.

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 11 Oct 2013 18:31

As the literacy level of the country rises, modern communication media makes way into the nook and corner of the country beaming how performance based societies are making the life of its citizens better, the big indian family gets nuclearized by the power of middle class jobs, the family ( castes are basically a big family based on blood line starting from a MUNI ) based politics is getting replaced by performance ( karma and dharma ) based politics. This performance based politics is what the real foundation of true Hindu civilization was which was usurped by a section of the society into a family based equation and corruption stared that day and engulfed us.

As Baba Ramdev would say - our civilization teaches us to respect the personality and not the person. When Arjuna the warrior is exholted to by Krishna to kill his family members to attain a place in the hall of fame of warriors - he was basically putting performance before family. The fact that Abdul Hamid was given PVSM is also an example of performance before family ( read greater muslim family ) and it is heartening that the mother of this great performer has recognized NAMO's message.

NAMO is leading this charge and showing us that no matter where u come from what matters are the choices/decisions u make. And the urban electorate is already glued into this concept. As the urabnization moves inland towards small towns and cities and eventually villages - family based politics and rise to power in society based on family will eventually make way for performance based society. NAMO is the one of several crusaders to have arrived in the scene but he surely has time on his side this time!

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 11 Oct 2013 19:28

Just saw khejri ford jhola fraud running away from xnews tv. I wonder why this has not made any big news. Media treating this fraud just like mafia queen. Is Delhi elections are being interfered by CIA?

vivek.rao · Post by **vivek.rao** » 11 Oct 2013 22:05

^^ You know why... They are shit scared of losing Delhi. Delhi elections are being interfered by SONIA MAFIA and PAID MEDIA MAFIA.

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 12 Oct 2013 13:59

johneeG wrote:Secondly, 'Dalits' are hindhus. I frankly think people should stop looking at 'Dalits' as non-Hindhus. All the wrong analysis starts from a mistaken view that 'Dalits' have converted and become either EJs or neo-buddhists or some such thing. That is all nonsense. There are EJs and neo-buddhists or commies or whatever in all groups. The game is to push these anti-Hindhu voices as the sole representative of 'Dalits'. This is done to fool both the 'Dalits' and 'non-dalits' and sow divisions between them.

A carefully planned narrative has been created to push 'Dalits', 'OBCs' and 'Vanvasis' feel as if they are not Hindhus and must ally with mujlims to protect themselves. Thats how the mullahs have continued to wield power in Hindhuthva 1.0 wave. Now, it seems to me that Hindhuthva has entered second phase and NaMo being a OBC is an important part of that phase. So far, Hindhuthva was sought to be characterized as only an 'upper-caste' phenomenon. Caste parties were supposed to wean away the Hindhus from Hindhuthva and protect Nahruvian 'secularism' and thereby the mullah's power structure.

Thousands of dalits to embrace Buddhism in Junagadh
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 999534.cms
..."The reason behind conversion of dalits to Buddhism is the caste hierarchy that has existed for centuries. Dr Bhimrao Ambedkar showed us a different path, where there is no discrimination between human beings," one of the organizers Parikshit Rathod said...

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 12 Oct 2013 15:51

Virendra wrote:Thousands of dalits to embrace Buddhism in Junagadh
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 999534.cms
..."The reason behind conversion of dalits to Buddhism is the caste hierarchy that has existed for centuries. Dr Bhimrao Ambedkar showed us a different path, where there is no discrimination between human beings," one of the organizers Parikshit Rathod said...

I would only blame VHP. It is a bunch of Hindutva Gotravadis and Traditionalists who either don't have the brains to think Dharmic Fundamentalism or choose not to do so.

The streak in Hindutvavad which tries to embrace Picchdi Jatis (I hate calling SCs as 'Dalits') is just reformist, making it a weak substitute for what is needed - Dharmic fundamentalism, which completely does away with Varnic hierarchical order.

Anyway OT!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 12 Oct 2013 18:03

Published on Oct 12, 2013
By Sameer Yasir
BJP aim to ride Modi wave to electoral success in Jammu: Firstpost

Jammu's two seats plus Ladakh seat in play!

Santosh · Post by **Santosh** » 12 Oct 2013 21:46

+1 RajeshA. Sangh really needs to evolve so that everyone including picchdi jatis feel that they are part of Dharmic parivar. Buddhism is padav on the escape journey. Buddhism itself needs to be tightly integrated with Hinduism. Buddha idols should be part of Hindu temples and baudh people should be encouraged to reaffirm their roots.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 13 Oct 2013 02:48

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/snu ... urn-to-bjp

Snubbed by SP, UP Thakurs turn to BJP

The powerful Thakurs of Uttar Pradesh are deserting the Samajwadi Party and veering toward the Bharatiya Janata Party. This shift in 12% Thakur votes could spell doom for the already beleaguered SP and give an advantage to the BJP in the Lok Sabha elections. Though small in numbers, Thakurs have a hold over the lower castes and thus can influence electoral outcomes.

A prominent Thakur leader and an independent MLA Raja Bhaiya was reinducted into Akhilesh Yadav Cabinet last week. But the move may not bring Thakurs back to SP fold. PTI

The powerful Thakurs of Uttar Pradesh are deserting the Samajwadi Party and veering toward the Bharatiya Janata Party. This shift in 12% Thakur votes could spell doom for the already beleaguered SP and give an advantage to the BJP in the Lok Sabha elections. Though the percentage of Thakur population in the state is not much, the community wields considerable influence over lower castes in the rural interiors and can swing votes without much effort.

The reason for the disillusionment of Thakurs with the SP lies with the Samajwadis themselves. In the past one year, the Samajwadis have treated Thakurs shabbily. Initially, Raghuraj Pratap Singh a.k.a. Raja Bhaiyya was asked to resign after his name figured in the FIR in the murder of Pratapgarh DSP Zia-ul-Haq in March this year. Another Thakur minister, Vinod Singh was asked to resign after he reportedly threatened a medical official in Gonda. Though he was taken back into the ministry after a few months, the Thakur community is seething with rage at his humiliation. The extent of anger among Thakurs can be gauged from the fact that even the return of Raja Bhaiyya into the Akhilesh Cabinet has not soothed ruffled feathers.

"The rule for Thakurs is not the same as for other communities. There are serious allegations against other ministers but they are not asked to resign. Azam Khan has been accused of engineering riots in Muzaffarnagar, but was never asked to step down and pave the way for a free inquiry. In the case of Thakur ministers, they are asked to resign and face humiliation," said a Thakur legislator from the SP.

If this was not enough, Chief Minister Akhilesh Yadav reshuffled portfolios and those who paid the price by getting less important ones were all Thakurs — Anand Singh, Aridaman Singh and Om Prakash Singh.

To make matters worse, the SP had denied the ticket to sitting MP Radhey Mohan Singh, who was one of the two Thakur MPs that the party had. His ticket was cancelled earlier this week after he had campaigned for almost ten months in his constituency.

According to sources, another SP MP, Brij Bhushan Sharan Singh has also declined to contest the Lok Sabha polls on a Samajwadi ticket and is heading towards the BJP now.

"Raja Bhaiyya may have agreed to return for personal reasons but this is not going to turn the clock for us. We understand that we have been ignored, humiliated and neglected after the Assembly polls and we will not trust the SP again," said a senior member of the community.

Bharat Singh, a political analyst, said that the main reason for the rising Thakur anger against the SP is the fact that the community is feeling that it has been "used and abused" by the party.

"Thakurs did not desert the SP when Amar Singh was expelled in 2010 and voted in large numbers in the Assembly polls. SP MP Mohan Singh was humiliated by the SP leadership when he issued a statement during the Assembly polls. Even Thakur officers have been sidelined in the government and key positions are reserved for either Yadavs or Muslims," he explained.

The BJP, on the other hand, offers a basket of goodies to Thakurs, right from tickets for the Lok Sabha, participation in party politics to respect.

"The BJP has always defended its Thakur leaders—whether it was Raja Bhaiyya in 1997 or Sonu Singh in 2013. Moreover, with Rajnath Singh at the helm of affairs, the community feels a sense of belonging in the BJP," said a BJP MLA.

Yogesh · Post by **Yogesh** » 13 Oct 2013 12:33

^^ a noob pooch- where do you get the popn proportion of caste from? IMO 12% for thakurs is too high number too believe, may be in pockets but entire UP, I'll be surprised!

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 13 Oct 2013 17:13

Mulla Yadav is reduced to denying that his schemes are benefiting only one community,Looks like he is in for a sound kick in his a$$.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 063043.cms

He said that the party was being accused of working of only one community (Muslims). "But I want to clarify that none of the scheme is discriminating and benefiting only one community....be it lap top distribution or the unemployment allowance there is no discrimination," he said.

and Papa Mulla stooped to pleading with sdre yindoos who are, anyway prone to commit 100 mistakes.

the party supremo Mulayam Singh Yadav on Saturday turned to people urging them not to be punish him in the forthcoming Lok Sabha elections for any of the wrongdoings of the state government headed by his son Akhilesh Yadav.
...
....
Don't take revenge from me if there is any fault on the part of the state government. If there is any wrongdoings then it is the ministers who will be responsible," Mulayam said.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 13 Oct 2013 18:18

Yogesh wrote:^^ a noob pooch- where do you get the popn proportion of caste from? IMO 12% for thakurs is too high number too believe, may be in pockets but entire UP, I'll be surprised!

Everyone in UP claims far greater population share of their castes than is true, saar. If we were to add up the different caste claims, I guess we would reach 300% of UP population.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 13 Oct 2013 18:30

nageshks wrote:
Yogesh wrote:^^ a noob pooch- where do you get the popn proportion of caste from? IMO 12% for thakurs is too high number too believe, may be in pockets but entire UP, I'll be surprised!
Everyone in UP claims far greater population share of their castes than is true, saar. If we were to add up the different caste claims, I guess we would reach 300% of UP population.

This is why we should support religious and caste census. The census should use the rural caste leaders, private surveying agencies and its own time tested methods for getting accuracy. Just because we don't count, the caste goes away.

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 13 Oct 2013 18:44

If Congress and BSP forms a pre-electoral alliance then it will polarise the nation along the fault lines of believers and the converts ( muslims are converts and dalits are potential converts). As Vivekanda said that converts are more harmful than invaders because they have been forced to leave their faith and become sworn enemy. That is why it will be important for BJP to focus on a the good governance and link it to anti-congress because both the muslims and the dalits are at the leading edge of being affected by bad governance. BJP is not particularly well know to be on the side of the dalits. Is this true or is this just a media propaganda. Does the benefit of good governance tickles down to the dalits of Gujrat?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 13 Oct 2013 18:53

Narendra Modi : which caste does he belong to. No one in RSS would know. He used to wash chai cups and serve chai.

But he is not used to gate crash in government conference funded by public money and throw tantrums against his own party to waste even more public money.

He is 3 times elected CM of a state and elected by one of most prosperous state Gujarat and elected by all people of Gujarat.

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 13 Oct 2013 19:06

I have seen folks with sacred thread working as plumber, domestic help, pulling rickshaw and also vending fruits on road side. So the work has no correlation to what caste he or she is borne into. He will get votes from muslims, dalits, OBCs etc etch only on one ground - good governance. Modi should make Subhas Bose as his mentor instead of Vivekanda. Bose had muslims, dalits, christiance, upper caste all lined up behind him for the cause of freedom by arms. Bose was core anti-congress. The same model should work for Modi for good governance or true freedom. I find it surprising that Netaji Bose is not his idol.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 13 Oct 2013 19:18

subhamoy.das wrote:I have seen folks with sacred thread working as plumber, domestic help, pulling rickshaw and also vending fruits on road side. So the work has no correlation to what caste he or she is borne into. He will get votes from muslims, dalits, OBCs etc etch only on one ground - good governance. Modi should make Subhas Bose as his mentor instead of Vivekanda. Bose had muslims, dalits, christiance, upper caste all lined up behind him for the cause of freedom by arms. Bose was core anti-congress. The same model should work for Modi for good governance or true freedom. I find it surprising that Netaji Bose is not his idol.

Thank god for that... No offence meant towards Netaji, but I too am not comfortable with this streak in Netaji's persona. SV too showed a tinge of this streak (his famous body of islam and mind of christian and soul of hindu comment). I am glad that NaMo has stayed away from this streak so far. SV showed it to much lesser extent and meant other wise and was speaking not as a politician indulging in dharmaarthik affairs. He was speaking as a sannyasi expressing his opinion on dharmaarthik affairs. Vastly different hats. Hence SV ji do not give heebie-jeebies to Hindus like Netaji at times gives. Netaji was removed from the scene before this idea could be developed. The priorities are separate now and there is no armed struggle required for independence (hope that time does not come upon hindus now). But if that comes, Netaji will not the role model then. He was a vibhuti and will continue to be a hero around whom people will rally. But the "Netaji model of Loksangraha" is no good.

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 13 Oct 2013 20:03

I am not sure what u meant by "heebi-jeebi" to hindus. Are u saying that since SB was rallying the people to rise above religion for the nation was a bad thing? Are u saying that Namo is rallying the people by harnessing the concept that their is a hindu ( dharmic ) in every indian is a good thing? I think religion is a private affair and should be kept at that and should not be mixed with politics of a modern nation state ( Poland also has a lot of jews but they are not a jewish nation but a polish nation ). If Namo harps on hindu way of life etc then I am afraid the wave will die out as the middle class, world wide, first believes in good governance and quality of life. NAMO is so far following the SB model and not that of SV model even though he invokes SV from time to time to rally the youth. He is rallying the people to rise for the sake of the nation and throw away the corrupt rulers. He is not asking them to be dharmic and follow the hindu way of life, something the Advani tried and failed miserbly. Atal was a success because he projected himself as a nationalist. NAMO is a RSS guy and mind you RSS has a strong national muslim wing also. The common cause here is nation state and not hindu way of life.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 13 Oct 2013 20:29

subhamoy.das wrote: ( Poland also has a lot of jews but they are not a jewish nation but a polish nation )..

Dude - which world are you living in? Poland has, according to the latest census, about 1200 Jews. The Nazis butchered most of the Polish Jews, and the bulk of the rest emigrated to Israel during the Stalinist years. What remained of the Jews (about 80K, of the 3.5-4 million in 1935) was expelled from Poland in 1968. Polish antisemitism is so deep rooted that it does not even require Jews in the country to sustain it. All Jews are long gone from Poland, and even now, antisemitism in Poland is at an all time high.

I agree with Atri-ji, by the way. SB model is a recipe for disaster.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 13 Oct 2013 20:36

Yogesh wrote:^^ a noob pooch- where do you get the popn proportion of caste from? IMO 12% for thakurs is too high number too believe, may be in pockets but entire UP, I'll be surprised!

I am surprised too as to where did Sunday Guardian get those numbers from. Especially there is a paradox in their own statement.

"This shift in 12% Thakur votes could spell doom for the already beleaguered SP and give an advantage to the BJP in the Lok Sabha elections. Though small in numbers, Thakurs have a hold over the lower castes and thus can influence electoral outcomes"

If sunday guardian thinks 12% is small then what is big. I think it is a typo. it should be close to 6%.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 13 Oct 2013 21:35

subhamoy.das wrote:I am not sure what u meant by "heebi-jeebi" to hindus. Are u saying that since SB was rallying the people to rise above religion for the nation was a bad thing? Are u saying that Namo is rallying the people by harnessing the concept that their is a hindu ( dharmic ) in every indian is a good thing? I think religion is a private affair and should be kept at that and should not be mixed with politics of a modern nation state ( Poland also has a lot of jews but they are not a jewish nation but a polish nation ). If Namo harps on hindu way of life etc then I am afraid the wave will die out as the middle class, world wide, first believes in good governance and quality of life. NAMO is so far following the SB model and not that of SV model even though he invokes SV from time to time to rally the youth. He is rallying the people to rise for the sake of the nation and throw away the corrupt rulers. He is not asking them to be dharmic and follow the hindu way of life, something the Advani tried and failed miserbly. Atal was a success because he projected himself as a nationalist. NAMO is a RSS guy and mind you RSS has a strong national muslim wing also. The common cause here is nation state and not hindu way of life.

NaMo is following Hedgewar Model, saar.. Whatever you see is happening is being channelized by this core. Hedgewar said, "he whom we refer to as Hindu, is Hindu". And Sangh is for all Hindus. replace that with Indian, and you have NaMo.. Atal Bihari Vajpayee ji "appeared" successful. He was amongst best PMs of India yes. But he did not become PM on his own pull. Ever since the time of JP in 1975, the leaders are miscalculating the driving engine which pulled all these movements. It was sangh and like-minded forces which joined hands.

up to a point, even the sekoolar mask of ABV was just that - a mask. They lost because certain sections at the helm started mistaking mask for real face. NaMo does not have to have mask. There can be no mask on NaMo (at least in public). Just like, there could not have been any mask on face of LKA in 80s and 90s. I seriously wish that NaMo does not lose the pulse he has on the Hindu hearts and more precisely "Hindutvavadi hearts". These H-waadi hearts are rallying and beginning to churn up alternative models in all spheres of life after a millennium of troubles. This is only going to be stronger.

Rallying youth for sake of nation is done by everyone, including MKG. There is nothing SB about it. Netaji model means first the ideology of forward-block, second somehow a compelling urge seen in section of Bangla intellectuals (not all, not people like Vidyasagar or Bankim or Bipinchandra Pal and similar others) to appear tolerant and advocating "co-synthesis" of Hindu and muslim memes. Narendranath Dutta and Subhashchandra Basu were from this reformist Raja Rammohan Roy and Brahmo-Samaaj vector. Narendranath was thoroughly cleansed of all these memes by the anugraha of "paramahamsa" from Dakshineshwar and he emerged as Swami Vivekananda.

Our current Narendra has never been touched by such Paakhandi memes in his formative years. And it is not that he created an institution. A deeply rooted institution created him and thousands like him. Due to his strong karma and clean record and favorable venus in his chart, he has captured hearts of Hindus (and some non-hindus) and is forwarding the cause of dharma.

There is nothing like religion in Hindu society. Adhyatma is personal anyways. And Dharma is all-pervading. NaMo doing Shastra-pooja today with Police-force and performing aarti of Jagadamba in governmental premises is "dharma" and not religion. Cleanse yourself of this western "Paakhanda" and you will see what I am trying to say. Check NaMo's speeches in IAA, for example. There is a "Hindu" way of bringing good-governance and eliminating corruption and improving the quality of life. NaMo articulates that way beautifully. Check the lectures of Subbu Swamy and Gurumurthy etc. he calls that way of reform "indian" or "sanaatan" way of reforms. Everyone knows it is all same Ganga, call her Bhaagirathi OR Alaknanda OR Padma.

As of Polish jews, well Nagesh garu has said it.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 13 Oct 2013 22:02

Thakurs are not more than 5-6% in UP. Yadavs are the largest caste with about 8-9%. Jatavs IIRC are next. Brahmins 5-6%.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Oct 2013 22:17

Don't think SB had any intention to bolster Islam as an institution. It would be wrong analysis. His pampering of Muslims comes from a very different socio-political reality of Bengal in contrast to upper-India. There were very strong undercurrents of confusion over religious identities in the largely converted population of Bengal, that had been tapped into by the Gaudya Vaishnavs under Nimai.

So for most idealistic politicians of that period, a part of the Muslim population of Bengal could be "retrieved". At least that was the perception anyway. What spoiled the broth was MKG and the huge resource of big-biz and "nationalist" press that converged behind MKG to boost the more Islamic component of the soup that Muslims were after the WWI - through the khilafat movement.

This forever pitched the balance of movement and leadership of the muslim community increasingly into the hands of the mullah and more stringent calls for greater "Islam". The Congress centre, constantly intervened in Bengal congress politics - almost always in favour of factions that favoured the Gandhian line of appeasement for the mullah faction of Islamism. In many ways, Bose's bid for leadership of the INC was to forestall this Gandhian intrigue and in this therefore he was forced to try and counter Gandhian appeasement with his own "gathering" of Muslims.

People do not realize the amount of forces in favour of Islamism that MKG and the coterie around him had generated, with a solid alliance between the elite of UP Hindu-muslim-merchant networks.

NM might actually be forced to play a SB regarding Muslims, for all that I can see as overt tactical responses. If he feels it is soo important to clear himself of any secret wishes to prioritize "temple-building" then he is deliberately sending out a signal that overtly he will not push for formal expansion of the "Hindu", and that the Muslims should feel "reassured". Muslim leadership will hold hin to that indirect promise - because for the Muslim leadership containing Hindu growth - especially at the cost of Muslim demographic and state-power growth - is of crucial importance. If NM feels the need to give such reassurances, he is not much different from SB. He has tactical advantages over SB in that the Gujarati biz community and extended networks that run beyond Gujarat - have largely adopted him. SB's local biz network had been systematically destroyed by the Brits and the Gujarati and Rajasthani biz networks having proved more reliable towards British interests - been allowed to take over.

All I hope is that sufficient pressure can be kept on him not to take measures that rein in the hindu expansion.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 13 Oct 2013 22:23

I see it differently. The success of a leader in RJB issue comes when Indian Muslims voluntarily vacate those three shrines.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 13 Oct 2013 22:26

Supratik wrote:Thakurs are not more than 5-6% in UP. Yadavs are the largest caste with about 8-9%. Jatavs IIRC are next. Brahmins 5-6%.

Yadavas population is in double figures. Important thing to note is that UCs constitute around 25% of the population. Brahmins population is in double figures as well.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Oct 2013 22:27

I have really started thinking of the effectiveness of this so-called "Hindu way" of removing bottlenecks from governance as the most result-giving one.

As far as we know - the governance in west of India under the last non-Muslim rulers were exemplary. There is grudging acceptance from the early Muslim chroniclers themselves as to how fair, unbiased and incorruptible most of these regimes were. But for each - their weakness was their very fairness itself, by which ethical and value based and fairness principles were exploited by Muslim agents to undermine, and ultimately subvert the societies using resources from the target societies themselves.

How do we fairly and unbiasedly roll back mullahcracy? How is NM policy going to help contain or reduce or eliminate the mullah infrastructure?

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 13 Oct 2013 22:43

Sushupti wrote: Yadavas population is in double figures. Important thing to note is that UCs constitute around 25% of the population. Brahmins population is in double figures as well.

I don't think Yadavs and Brahmins are in double digits in UP. Yadavs are 11% in Bihar. I will dig the numbers and post. Yes, FCs are 20-25%, OBCs 35-40%, dalits 20% Muslims 18%.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 13 Oct 2013 22:46

SB provided an alternative to Muslim mobilization in the nationalist cause which was different from that of INC which largely relied on religious clerics and ML which courted the feudal landlords.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Oct 2013 22:48

http://ibnlive.in.com/group-blog/the-in ... 64627.html

This was something the Muslims had not seen in the last 40 years of Congress rule. Muslim madarsas were supported. Madarsa students, who had never seen or gone to a school, got a chance to appear for SSC and class XIIth examinations. The famous Sarkhej Roza which was in dilapidated condition was renovated and restored. The numbers of Muslim-owned schools and hospitals in the state have increased. Economic prosperity too has visited Muslim households and as a result, the record turn-out by Muslims to vote for Narendra Modi. It is important to understand that inclusive growth has benefitted the minority community and we can see that through various growth indicators. Some of them are: This, being a season of preparations for the Hajj pilgrimage, it is important to see that the total quota for Hajj travellers in Gujarat is 3,500 seats whereas applications for Hajj have exceeded the count of 41,000 already. Going for Hajj is an indicator of economic prosperity of a family because in Islam, it is mandatory to fulfil all your social obligations before going on Hajj. Gujarat has two of the fastest growing districts in the country and they are Kutch and Bharuch and both these districts have large Muslim populations and there has been unprecedented growth in these districts. Kutch has about 35 per cent Muslim population and Bharuch has around 20 per cent Muslim population.

Similarly, if one looks at the two-wheeler vehicle registration at various RTO's in Gujarat, almost 18 per cent of the vehicles are registered in the names of Muslims who form less than 10 per cent of the total population of the state. Similarly, the registration of 4-wheeler vehicles is also much higher than the communitys proportionate population. The number of Muslims employed in the police force is 12 per cent in Gujarat,. while Muslims employed by the Gujarat state government is around 10 per cent of the total sarkari workforce.

Note that from the Muslim viewpoint - growth also includes growth of religious infrastructure - madrasshas, places of religious iconism, number of haji's etc. A good government is the one that not only merely provides economic infrastructure but also supports growth islamic institutions and means of propagation of Islam, the maddrassahs and mosques etc.

When economic growth feeds into hajj and madrassah building or renovation and recognition of the religious education system as at par with the non-religious ones, the identity-politics of mullahcracy is not being weakened - but in reality being strengthened.

People might say that this is an interim strategy - a temporary compromise to isolate extremists. In practical terms, it is the preservation and maintenance of identity-sharpening divides in the educational and other processes that builds on economic prosperity to eventually revive the jihadi meme.