Indian Railways Thread

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 20 Aug 2013 09:54

Theo_Fidel wrote:One suspects the twits got down on the wrong side so they did not have to use the platform and wait for the train to leave. It is very easy for the train drivers view to be obstructed as he makes the turn around the stationary train to use the loop line.

Sir, this is the most obvious reason and exactly the truth. But instead of curtailing this behavior the Railways and Govt. gets over this by doling out money. I read two contradicting reports. One which said the Railways may NOT pay any compensation, but another one says around 5 lakhs would be doled out. Easy way to make some good money (at a dead person's expense), I must say.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 20 Aug 2013 09:57

Theo_Fidel wrote:One suspects the twits got down on the wrong side so they did not have to use the platform and wait for the train to leave. It is very easy for the train drivers view to be obstructed as he makes the turn around the stationary train to use the loop line.

Sir, this is the most obvious reason and exactly the truth. But instead of curtailing this behavior the Railways and Govt. gets over this by doling out money. I read two contradicting reports. One which said the Railways may NOT pay any compensation, but another one says around 5 lakhs would be doled out. Easy way to make some good money (at a dead person's expense), I must say.

Fencing between the tracks might help but is impractical.

I have seen this in two stations near Bengaluru. KJM and BNCE. In BNCE nearly three years back there was a tragic accident in which an entire family got run over by a speeding express train. The family which also included an old woman had tried to cross over to the other side of the station by crossing railway tracks (with a plan to slowly climb onto the platforms). BNCE also has a curve, and the express has no plans to stop there. But one thing, no body supported the dead family in any way by supporting their act. I DO NOT see the similar civic consciousness in the train passengers and elected leaders of Bihar. It is these kind of uncivilized behavior which shows these states always in poor light.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 20 Aug 2013 10:04

Well, either the Railways should sue the Bihar government for recovering the losses or the Bihar government should sue the Railways for damages due to a safety violation. Things will be fixed in a hurry once the lawyers start making some money.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2013 11:24

but while the bihar govt can organize mobs on demand and beat up railway people , its not an option for IR.
its a unequal contest. bihar govt can also cut electricity and water to railway housing and impose other punishments.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 20 Aug 2013 11:32

Singha wrote:but while the bihar govt can organize mobs on demand and beat up railway people , its not an option for IR.
its a unequal contest. bihar govt can also cut electricity and water to railway housing and impose other punishments.

May be OT. In that case the way Maharashtrians etc. dealt with the proud citizens of Bihar also has to be fully justified. If Bihar govt. is incapable of civilizing their own citizens then some one else would have to do it for them. Perhaps it is this boorish mentality which irritates others and gang up against Biharis and bash them up?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 20 Aug 2013 19:57

Saar,

There is still incomplete evidence that all these folks were all Bihari. Sounds like they were all on a pilgrimage, possible some were from elsewhere.

Bihari’s behave differently in the North IME.

What annoys me is the locals joined the goonda giri and burned down their own railway station! How stupid is that. IR should dismantle the station refuse to stop at that town.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Aug 2013 20:29

Sachin wrote:
Singha wrote:but while the bihar govt can organize mobs on demand and beat up railway people , its not an option for IR.
its a unequal contest. bihar govt can also cut electricity and water to railway housing and impose other punishments.
May be OT. In that case the way Maharashtrians etc. dealt with the proud citizens of Bihar also has to be fully justified. If Bihar govt. is incapable of civilizing their own citizens then some one else would have to do it for them. Perhaps it is this boorish mentality which irritates others and gang up against Biharis and bash them up?

There is no need to get hotheaded here.There are instances of similar behaviour or worse , one can find plenty and blame their state Govt or bash those citizens up anywhere.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Aug 2013 01:07

take bihar incident.. wtf is wrong with people when they know their infrastructure will kill them. don't people know not to cross railway lines when train approaches? would people have more brain cells to avoid that path or the train has enough capability to put the breaks.

90 crore loss because of one guy being stupid. bogies burned, people assaulted and killed, havoc. what nuisance is this... unbearable progression and awareness, from both prevention, and infrastructure issue. people are not just humane enough that is all.. right from babooze to aam admi.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 21 Aug 2013 06:17

That is why we still need a "100 % literate" state everywhere for all its other shortcomings.

Couldn't resist sorry onlee !

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 21 Aug 2013 10:31

Bade wrote:That is why we still need a "100 % literate" state everywhere for all its other shortcomings. Couldn't resist sorry onlee !

100% literate state is not an angel. Re-read the incident at a station in North Kerala. Train gets diverted to another track, runs over a person standing on it. And driver is accused of drunken driving

. If it proves any thing, it is that being 100% literate does not make one-self an expert in railway operations and in common sense (of not standing on a railway track when a train is on its way). Though many folks try to build such a case.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 27 Aug 2013 16:46

I really wonder why the heck should irctc.co.in branch out into online shopping

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 27 Aug 2013 18:36

krishnan wrote:I really wonder why the heck should irctc.co.in branch out into online shopping

They are going to provide internet on the train and discount if you shop while traveling. Big captive market. They can very well attach a Shopping car or supply booked items at Next Station or Junction. Cool.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Sep 2013 03:53

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 095_1.html

Indian Railways is trying to lease unused railway lands in metros. They expect Rs 25cr/yr on a 45 yr lease.

I think some termites are trying to get into contracts lease contracts that will hold these lands for 45 yrs.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 27 Sep 2013 23:43

DLW Varanasi develops world's first 5500 HP Diesel locomotive.

Diesel Locomotive Works (DLW), Varanasi, the engine production unit of Indian Railways, has developed the first prototype of a 5500 HP diesel locomotive (WDG5), as part of its continuing technological upgradation programme.

The first ever 5500 HP diesel engine to be manufactured anywhere in the world, the locomotive has already started running on a pilot project basis in North Central Railway.

No locomotive manufacturer anywhere in the world has attempted more than 4000 HP on 22-tonne axle load because of the smaller moving dimension of locomotives, except perhaps in the US and Canada.

The 5500 HP WDG5 is primarily aimed at improving the throughput with higher balancing speeds. The locomotive will be able to achieve 100 kmph speed on level tracks with higher axle load.

WDG5 brings to Indian Railways advanced technologies such as electronic fuel injection (for higher fuel efficiency and emission control).

DLW's locomotive designs implement collision protection, provision for heating, ventilation and air conditioning, task lighting, improved visibility, ergonomic seating and a soothing and aesthetic visual TFT-based display (similar to that used in aircrafts), thereby setting up new standards for crew comport and safety.

Today DLW is able to manufacture locomotives with a wide horsepower range, from 1400 HP to 5500 HP for multiple track gauges.

Besides meeting the needs of non-railway customers in India, DLW is exporting locomotives to Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Malaysia, Tanzania, Sudan, Senegal, Mozambique and Myanmar.

In addition, DLW has diversifies into the manufacture of diesel generator (DG) sets and has supplied some extremely critical back-up DG sets to Nuclear Power Corporation India Limited's nuclear power plants at Kota, Narora, Kaiga and Kalpakkam.

DLW, which is the only manufacture of mainline diesel electric locomotives in the whole South and Southeast Asia, has grown and transformed over the years to meet the nation's changing transportation needs.

Having manufactured over 6,700 locomotives till date, DLW is now one of the biggest locomotive manufacturers in the world.

In 2012-13, DLW manufactured 294 locomotives, increasing its production nearly three times from 112 locomotives manufactured in the year 2002-03.

Diesel Locomotive Works (DLW), Varanasi will be entering the 'Golden Jubilee' year when it completes 50 years of its production service in 2014.

disha · Post by **disha** » 03 Oct 2013 21:48

Indian Railways explore natural gas to fuel locomotives. (Posting in full below)

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 465003.cms

NEW DELHI: The Indian Railways proposes to utilise natural gas as fuel for its fleets of diesel locomotives in line with the international trend. This will have a substantial effect on reducing the emission of carbon and in making the railway system environment-friendly, stated Railways Minister Mallikarjun Kharge in New Delhi today.

Inaugurating 10th edition of the International Rail Exhibition and Conference organised by Confederation of Indian Industry (CII) in the capital today, Kharge said that under the Research, Design and Standard Organization (RDSO), is doing considerable work in developing highly fuel efficient diesel locomotives.

In this regard, he disclosed that an Indian manufacturer has established a joint venture with a reputed foreign firm for design and development of the system under the overall supervision of RDSO.

Kharge said that FDI was welcome in infrastructure projects, such as the elevated rail corridor in Mumbai, high speed rails and dedicated freight corridor. FDI is also open for factories in rolling stock, such as locomotives and coaches, he stated.

Referring to the ambitious project of the railways - the Dedicated Freight Corridors (DFC), he said that it would be a game changer for connectivity and freight easing all transportation significantly by connecting the northern hinterland and similarly the eastern side to the plants in the north.

There is considerable scope for private public partnership in railways in general and DFC in particular, the Minister said. Freight terminals, parts of the DFC, redevelopment of stations and elevated rail corridor in Mumbai are areas proposed for private investment during the 12th Plan period, he said.

The minister emphasized that during the 12th Plan period, there would be continuous effort to add new routes, augment capacity on existing routes, and invest in terminals, rolling stock and in workshop and maintenance facilities.

In absolute terms, he said that the Railways plan to add 4000 km of new lines besides over 7,500 km of doubling and 5,500 km of gauge conversion and 6500 km for electrification. Further, the Railways also plan to procure over one lakh wagons, 24,000 coaches and nearly 4000 locomotives.

The Minister pointed out that in the last decade, Indian Railways have reduced the number of accidents per million train kilometers from 0.44 in 2003-04 to 0.13 in 2012-13.

Railway Board chairman Arunendra Kumar, spoke about the large scale bio-toilets being introduced in the railway network. These cheap but effective toilets would be retrofitted in 55000 coaches. The total number of bio toilets when fully implemented would be around 2,50,000, he said. Calling for public private participation to enhance the speed of the passenger trains, Kumar said ""Our objective is to cover Mumbai-Ahmedabad by one hour and 52 minutes. It is a tough call and we need the support of the private sector in this regard"". He also informed about the signing of a joint venture between Railways and the Rashtriya Ispat Nigam today for setting up a coach factory.

The International Railway Equipment Exhibition (IREEE), in its 10th edition this year has over 400 exhibitors. The expo has direct participation from 24 countries including China, Czech Republic, France and Germany, as well as first time participants like Japan, Korea and Russia, with country pavilions. This year's event also sees the maiden edition of the Urban Mass Transit Expo (UMTE) 2013, a concurrent international exhibition cum conference with a clear focus on Metro and light rail. Speaking at the session on Rolling Stock - Trends and Future Developments, Arvind Khare, additional member, production unit, Railway Board, said that an international seminar would shortly be organised inviting suggestions from national and international universities and research bodies, to enhance the speed of the passenger and freight trains in India. He also laid emphasis on the Vision 2020 of Railways which has made elaborate plans for achieving greater fuel efficiency, capacity utilization and speed. CII president Kris Gopalakrishnan spelt out four areas for enhancing the efficiency of the railways. Greater stress on the PPP model, expansion of the existing railway network, modernization of technology by inducting, heavier, and faster trains and increased pace in gauge conversion. He also suggested faster processing of wagon tenders to facilitate swift procurement.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Oct 2013 01:19

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... epage=true
Travel ticketless in trains; if caught, touts pay for you

what a shame!

ps: edited to include the title. more than happy to correct, little nanja
i hope the voters of India have similar feedback approach on our babooze in dilli

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 21 Oct 2013 02:54

SaiK wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... epage=true
what a shame!

Saik, can you post the title of the article too instead of just the raw link? You are senior enough to know how to post link with the title. It will help others decide whether they want to read the article or not. You have been doing it in a few threads now

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Oct 2013 19:37

Right now multiple huge power plants are idling in india due to less than expected gas from kg basin and whatever exists is pushed to fertilizer plants by the goi. Power producers says move fertilizer plants to gas headends in arabia and africa and let it be shipped cheaply here, while domestic gas goes to solve the crippling power deficit.

In that context natural gas locos looks like a long pole.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Oct 2013 06:51

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/364 ... ality.html
why waste expense on 160kmph lines while they can straight away focus on the 320kmph lines?

they can begin with operational on 160kmph limit on a 300kmph lines, and gradually lay foundations for the future. do not understand.

however, there are somethings our IITians must look at future, and come up with new designs all home grown.

i don't understand how existing infrastructure will give them 160kmph?

saumitra_j · Post by **saumitra_j** » 24 Oct 2013 14:09

SaiK wrote:http://www.deccanherald.com/content/364 ... ality.html
why waste expense on 160kmph lines while they can straight away focus on the 320kmph lines?

they can begin with operational on 160kmph limit on a 300kmph lines, and gradually lay foundations for the future. do not understand.

however, there are somethings our IITians must look at future, and come up with new designs all home grown.

i don't understand how existing infrastructure will give them 160kmph?

SaiK: There is a HUGE difference in capex as well as opex between operating at 160 kmph and 320 kmph.

First and foremost: For running trains that fast, you need to have straight tracks everywhere - which means as less and gradual curves as possible, more tunnels and longer bridges.

Secondly, who is going to pay for it all?

Thirdly, after you have paid for it, why would you run slower trains and not want to recover money as quickly as possible?

Fast trains are very expensive to build and operate - unless there is some huge revolution in technology which brings these costs down, do not expect to have trains running at 320 kmph in India anytime soon.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Oct 2013 16:59

I think Indian Railways will do a lot good to itself and its travelers if they improve the efficiency of trains , put more money in safety of trains , make big platforms and smaller ones on the way more cleaner with better canteen facilities , improve its ticketing system by making sure touts dont grab ticket and later sell it at premium , Hygenic and better food facility in trains if possible introduce kitchen on more trains.

High Speed Train is really not a priority for passengers right now compared to improving small and big things that improves Passengers Journey and Safety.

If you go to any big stations the first thing that greets you is smell of poo and urine , the stench is in the air , why cant they improve that instead of running after the moon.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 24 Oct 2013 19:36

^^^
+1
HSR is definitely not the need of the hour. What we need is to expand the freight capacity of our tracks. Make the tracks capable of carrying double and triple stacked container trains. Double for monsoon months and Triple for all other months. A double stacked container train can carry approximately 1.5 times more coal. This will enhance our electricity generation facility too.
Increase the speed of freight trains. The target should be to reach max speed of 100-125 kmph and an average speed of 75 kmph for dry and bulk cargo.
Middle class is slowly shifting to air travel. That should be encouraged even more.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 25 Oct 2013 07:23

Did we miss this. A fare hike without a porattam. What next, sun rises in West.....

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1131005/j ... mnVURAwdFs

The railways today raised passenger fares by a flat two per cent for all classes but did not touch local trains or the Metro (suburban and non-suburban trains). The new charges kick in from October 7 and will apply also to tickets issued in advance.

Freight rates have been raised by 1.7 per cent on all commodities and are likely to have a cascading effect on inflation as the railways are the preferred mode of transport for bulk commodities.

The hikes have been made to offset the rise in fuel costs — a 7.3 per cent increase in the price of diesel and a 15.5 per cent hike in electricity charges.

The 2011-12 rail budget had announced a fuel adjustment component (FAC) in railway rates; today’s hikes were effected under that principle. The FAC is linked to fuel and energy prices.

Basic fares in AC first class have risen by around Rs 60 to Rs 85 per ticket, and by Rs 35 to Rs 45 in AC 2-tier.

--------------------------------

Per this report Passenger losses are now Rs 26,000 Crore

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 905_1.html

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 25 Oct 2013 20:29

^^^
Passenger services will never become profitable. The very best that we can hope for is for break-even and that too with sky high fares. It is the aam-admi which is keeping this service running.

manish · Post by **manish** » 25 Oct 2013 22:33

Christopher Sidor wrote:^^^
Passenger services will never become profitable. The very best that we can hope for is for break-even and that too with sky high fares. It is the aam-admi which is keeping this service running.

I hope they at least tone down their practice of squeezing every little drop of blood out of freight to keep pax fares at 'pro-~~poor~~poverty' levels.

The practice has been silently damaging the economy at many levels and is incentivising a shift of goods movement towards road, which is actually dangerously counter-productive in the medium & long term.

saip · Post by **saip** » 25 Oct 2013 22:52

For starters they should get rid of or reduce the number of discounted fares. Who ever heard of thalyssimia patients and their attendants, farmers and industrial workers, heart patients and their attendants. And the countless free tickets for MLAs, MPs. Whoever pays full fare is a fool.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 25 Oct 2013 23:27

Jee all this air travel for rising middle class is without losses for the airlines ? Even airlines are in perennial loss making mode. Imagine even 800 million people taking to the air for their travel needs.

Better raise fares on trains with HSR levels wherever possible and feasible. Cannot depend on air travel for a long term solution.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 26 Oct 2013 00:26

^ for anything over 500 km airlines are more efficient, yes even in terms of energy consumption. I saw a recent report that modern efficient planes get the equivalent of 50 miles to the gallon on a per passenger basis for medium distance flights. Even higher numbers for lower speed turbo-craft. This is what railways is up against. If they double their fares as this loss indicates they should, airlines will be cheaper, the market is giving us a clear signal on which is more efficient at that point. The only advantage railways have is with electric traction but even that is not enough apparently.

So it is inevitable that the majority of Indians will be flying for anything over 500 km. Chennai-Bengluru by train would make sense, but not Chennai Hyderabad or Mumbai.

For a long time I have been pointing out that sleeper travel is horribly expensive and inefficient. A sleeper coach seating 70-80 would in normal circumstance be replaced by a chair car seating 150+. But for this trains would have to be speeded up and turn everything into a daytrip. With chair cars a 26 coach rake would be transporting 4000+ folks per trip as compared to ½ that for sleepers.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 26 Oct 2013 01:03

Are you including all the subsidies even the airlines get to get the efficiency figure ?

Think of the passenger throughput, trains are almost like parallel inputs unlike the boarding processes for planes. At some point of passenger density airline travel will become a nightmare. Someone has to do the numbers to get an idea on the potential bottlenecks.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 26 Oct 2013 01:16

It would be good to get aircrafts like A380 in a single class economy only mode to commoditize air travel in India. It will seat around 825 people in a single class. The cost per seat would probably be the lowest among other aircraft. Only thing is that the aircraft is optimized for long haul travel and not for short haul routes (which has more cycles ).

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 26 Oct 2013 02:09

Bade wrote:Are you including all the subsidies even the airlines get to get the efficiency figure ?

What subsidies? ATF is a lot more expensive in India compared to most other countries due to extra taxes. If we reduced the taxes the per mile cost would drop even further.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 26 Oct 2013 02:15

All the bailouts for airlines are subsidies too. Be it Air India or United. Other than SouthWest which airline is running a profit. My guess is none of the Gulf ones are either, without the almost free oil.

Theo's number includes worldwide averages very likely and not specific to India.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 26 Oct 2013 02:41

http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/fi ... 0final.pdf

Heres the report. I don't see any direct subsidy data but it may be in there somewhere.

Look at page 20 & 21.
Delta NY-Atlanta ~ 1200 km roughly Chennai-Mumbai ~ 1100 km.
Fuel burn is 8.5 passenger miles per lb of fuel. 6 lbs per gallon so roughly 6x8.5= 51 miles per gallon.

Delta NY-LA
Fuel Burn is 10.7 or 6x10.7 = 64.2 miles per gallon.
Note that Jet blue which flies newer aircraft gets 12 passenger miles per gallon.

You can see how longer flights get more efficient despite having to carry extra fuel.
---------------------------------------

The running fuel costs for a railway can be quite low on per capita terms. For instance a WDP-4 hauling 24 sleeper coaches will burn about 5 liters per km hauling 1500+/- pax. This works out to about 500-600 miles to the passenger gallon. The problem is the energy cost of maintaining that enormous ROW and the cost to run a single 16 hour trip per day as at present. An aircraft can easily do the Chennai-Mumbai trip 6+ times a day, 24/7. Even HSR I believe can do the running cost at the equivalent of 300-400 pax miles/gal.

I think the full costs reflect the energy cost of building and maintaining the right way which is far more expensive than any airport. Longer the ROW more inefficient things get. Which is why IR is hemorrhaging pax cash at such a rate.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 26 Oct 2013 02:54

What are the freight hauled per gallon (or equivalent alternate energy) for rail vs. road? For freight, air would be very expensive is my guess.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 26 Oct 2013 03:00

SaiK wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... epage=true
Travel ticketless in trains; if caught, touts pay for you

This had been going on in mumbai locals for last 30 years (that is how far back I can look - a shout out to mumbaikars to tell us say exactly how long

)

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 26 Oct 2013 04:00

Forgot to mention. I was once told that each Stop-Start cycle typically burns 1/4 ton of fuel or about 250 liters +/- as a WDP-4 can burn 6-8 liters per minute at max throttle.

Matrimc,

It is very hard to do an equivalent for freight as the unit there is is in tonnes. Pax numbers should stand alone.

But yes there is simply no comparison in freight between Rail & Air.

BTW for bulk freight sea, water way, etc is 10 times more efficient than Rail.

saip · Post by **saip** » 26 Oct 2013 05:00

Theo:

For a long time I have been pointing out that sleeper travel is horribly expensive and inefficient. A sleeper coach seating 70-80 would in normal circumstance be replaced by a chair car seating 150+.

Are you sure of those numbers? How do you put 150+ seats in a compartment unless you stack them vertically? AFAIK the most Indian trains have is 108 seats.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Oct 2013 07:21

for short haul 1 HR type flights like BLR to (goa, kochi, mangalore, hyd, vijayawada, tirupati, chennai, madurai, coimbatore, trivandrum) would a largeish turboprop be more cost effective than turbofan engines?
something bigger than the ATR72..something the size of a A321neo as in a C130J with passenger seating and lighter body(no cargo stress point loads)..maybe a modified wing that doesnt need to cope with high sink rates and slow approaches ?
it would obviously fly lower and a bit slower.

or have the latest engines closed and eliminated that curve?

if we could arrange for trains to have a 80kmph avg speed over a 6 hr journey accounting for stops and slowdowns...thats 500km. half or more of the trains in india could be converted into AC and non-AC chair cars - more pax, cheaper to maintain, less pressure on toilets....

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 26 Oct 2013 11:08

Saip,

It is the long term potential. If one moves to an ailrline seat pitch of 80 cm.
For instance with a dedicated rake you would
- eliminate the inter coach wasted space
- Eliminate one of the end vestibules.
- Eliminate need for center exits.
- put the toilets on a shared bogie, Similar to TGV.

Still even 120 seats would be a huge improvement over sleepers.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 26 Oct 2013 11:28

Sleeper is a must for any journey longer than eight night hrs. or six day hours. I once travelled non AC first class Mumbai to Kolkata when traveling first class was a luxury - believe me none of you would want to do it. Return thankfully was by air due to some natural disaster or other. <OT stuff to /dev/null>