Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

[Sanku]

Re Karan

Stop wasting time with Sanku....will repeatedly raise the same old tired arguments.

Well, the truth must be told.

The arguments are tired and old, because the issue is tired and old. If people really cared about Arjun seeing service in IA, they would spend their time better wondering about its manufacturing schedule etc rather than hoping that running down T 90 and IA on specious grounds some how make it happen magically till manufacturing etc related are not sorted out.

[Pratyush]

Tor bar was an additional option asked by the army. So One additional tank was made with the option. Finally it was decided to go with original option. Tor bar was not a falure.

In the past I had requested that some one do a retrospective of the accomplishments of the Arjun program since its inception. The various designs and the IA's GSQR's. An official history if you will.

If we had a complete history of the program, we would be freed from the endless cycles of debates. Along, with having a better appreciation of the decision making process of the Indian Army. In the light of the evolving threat environment. As every GSQR is essentially a response to an external environment, current or projected.

[Karan M]

Pratyush, there is enough data on the complete history of the program and there are folks who are willing to take the time and even mention what went where.

Unfortunately, there are also people who have got so used to being the board vuvuzela(s) that any meaningful discussion is pretty much throttled. There is little point in me or anyone else taking the effort to write ten page posts on BRs when you have worthies giving 1-2 line hash-rehash answers using Paki links as sources.
There is only so much one can redress.

[chackojoseph]

GSQR does not specify anything execpt some parameters. The kind of info being desired is huge as the project id spread over 30 + yrs, multiple GSQRs, yearly reviews etc. The tor bar qustion I had asked as it was a major decision. Both options worked fine. The review meet with VCOS then tilted in favour of air suspension.

[Sanku]

If we had a complete history of the program, .

We have a complete history of the program. Unfortunately they are often critical of CVRDE etc. at which point there are protests. Recently there are some pro Arjun histories also, unfortunately they completely gloss over the many failures in many tests. So lets try and see two which are perhaps with least pro or anti Arjun.

Here is one from FAS in 1998. Talking about the challenges
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land ... rjun98.pdf

This is one from CHacko which is nice to Arjun

http://frontierindia.net/history-of-arj ... z2idhIOipE

here is one more

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... un-dev.htm

there are tons of these on the net...

[Pratyush]

Karan,

I hear what you are saying. But, the issue is that the data is too spread out and the not every one is able to assemple the data points into a coherent narrative.

So when people talk of a 30 year program, it is shocking for a lay listener / reader. Without developing an understanding that the vehicle evolved every 5 years or so, during that period. The Arjun MK1. in its current form has been under going tests since 1995 /96 at least. Cause around that time I became aware of it.

So 4 design iterations over a 25 year period is OK. But one tank over a 30 year period comes as a shock. With claims of incompetence and poor project management.

[pragnya]

that is exactly you have been doing for ages against Ajai Shukla!!! you did not even spare the GM, HVF where T-90s are produced. know what - they claimed the contrary!!!

Not at all, in fact AS is not questioning, he is passing judgements, based on his own investigation based on his own charges. He is judge jury and executioner all rolled into one.

And yes, his track record is important in judging the value system on which is judgements are based.

so 'your' judgements of the situation are final and should not be questioned?? atleast he is on the field, talking to the right people and filing reports after due investigations. OTOH you are just typing away by googling and even producing pak sources to support your claims while maintaining as in the past 'only' official MOD/St.com reports as the sources you would beleive!!

If AS has questions, he can come here and I will answer him

why would he come to answer you. just a few posts back 'you' wanted ask him 'tons' of questions!!!

[Pratyush]

If the articles linked above by Sanku are factually correct, then that pretty much destroyed any case the detractors of Arjun have and have been having.

[Sanku]

With claims of incompetence and poor project management.

Issues of lack of competence and poor project management are not necessarily wrong. Every iteration was forced by the fact that the tank regularly overshot the time, and undershot the deliverables. At which time there were two choices,

1) Scrap the project.
2) Modify the project so that the future tank at least would meet requirements when it was ready.

Arjun has been in this "infinite" loop of overshooting time and undershooting performance and then being asked to meet it in the next iterations + minimum extra to ensure that the tank is relevant when it finally delivered.

The project has been persisted with against all odds in a sense.

[Sanku]

If the articles linked above by Sanku are factually correct, then that pretty much destroyed any case the detractors of Arjun have and have been having.

Oh sorry, I missed linking the right articles,



the one you read is by Chacko which is too pro Arjun and does not give the right picture (such as failing tests)

[Sanku]

so 'your' judgements of the situation are final and should not be questioned??

Please question. But dont then run from answers. What is the question you have?

If AS has questions, he can come here and I will answer him

why would he come to answer you. just a few posts back 'you' wanted ask him 'tons' of questions!!!

Ok, so he wont come here. Fine. Does not stop me from pointing out issues with his articles.

[Ramu]

Issues of lack of competence and poor project management are not necessarily wrong. Every iteration was forced by the fact that the tank regularly overshot the time, and undershot the deliverables. At which time there were two choices,

1) Scrap the project.
2) Modify the project so that the future tank at least would meet requirements when it was ready.

Arjun has been in this "infinite" loop of overshooting time and undershooting performance and then being asked to meet it in the next iterations + minimum extra to ensure that the tank is relevant when it finally delivered.

The project has been persisted with against all odds in a sense.

So, what is your pick? 1 or 2?

[chackojoseph]

Indian Army has never officially said that Arjun is a failed project. Even, the test failing Sanku is mentioning, started succeeding once a Black Box was installed inside.

[Sanku]

started succeeding once a Black Box was installed inside.

Do you have a single "open source" link for the black box. No "sources" please.

[Sanku]

So, what is your pick? 1 or 2?

2 is an obvious pick. So its picked by everyone. One hopes that this infinite loop will terminate soon.

[chackojoseph]

started succeeding once a Black Box was installed inside.

Do you have a single "open source" link for the black box. No "sources" please.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=a ... +black+box

[Ramu]

So, what is your pick? 1 or 2?

2 is an obvious pick. So its picked by everyone. One hopes that this infinite loop will terminate soon.

Who is everyone? This infinite loop is called development cycle. Why would you want to stop that?

[rohitvats]

^^^

RV,

i take your point but can you enlighten me as to what has changed in 4 years - from the time RFI for light tank was released (2009) - that the IA changes it's requirement from 22ton light tank to 48+ton T-90MS?? what chinese/pak plans are there where these tanks are supposed to face off??

First - we don't know why the RFI for Light Tank was even released in the first place. The weight and mobility aspect stand on their own merit - we are ASSUMING that the IA wanted these Light Tanks as principal armored components in the fight against the Chinese. For all we know, they might be required for embedding with the Infantry Division(s).

Coming to the Pakistan and Chinese capability - the MBT are required for the north and north-eastern sectors where they will be facing (terrain permitting) the main PLA MBT. This hold true more for Ladakh than any other place. We might end up facing a full fledged PLA armored division and associated mechanized assets in this sector.

Extreme north east of Sikkim border with Tibet has this sliver of land on India side called as Fingers Area which is an extension of Tibetan Plateau - IMO just about the only place where tanks can be used. People who have been to Sikkim and traveled to northern part of the state have raised concerns about the ability of road infra to handle such traffic. But as the Ladakh example shows, IA can do things if it intends to.

i gave a DNA link where army officials speak of mobility, weight and transport issues due to which they want light 22ton tank in the mountains. i am glad to know from you that infra has been taken care for the induction of heavy tanks but why does the IA make an issue of the same - weight, mobility and transport - to deny Arjun atleast in the plains?? if they can strengthen the infra for T-90 can't they do the same for Arjun - which they agree is superior to T-90??

Exactly my point - if IA sees merit in a action it tends to throw everything behind it. Had they been honest about inducting Arjun on a larger scale, they could have made provisions to do the same. Unless and until there are technical issues we don't know about, IA could have made the (I) Armored Bde earmarked for Ladakh as a Arjun tank equipped bde.

[rohitvats]

While the finer points of the utility of tanks on Leh plateau elude me. I have the following questions regarding the employment of Tanks on that ground.

1) What effect will the rarefied air have on the shell performance. I presume that he missiles will be uneffected by the air pressure.

Considering that rarefied air is supposed to enhance the range of an artillery shell, the same may apply to tank round as well - albeit the tank round has a flat trajectory compared to parabolic one for artillery shell.

2) A tank battle is essentially driven by logistical ability of an army. Does the IA have the logistical backbone needed to support such a fight. Well, we are geared to fight with multiple Corps in the area so handling an armored bde should not be much of a challenge in relative sense

3) How soon can the forces in theater be replenished. Assuming, that the existing forces take major damage, in the opening moments of a fight. In the event of a first strike from the PLA. (leave aside the merits of such an act, for a moment). It is again a function of logistics. Herein the C-17 and availability of ALG apart from main Leh+THOISE airfield will come in handy - if we have tanks to spare.

[pragnya]

RV, thanks for explaining. AS wrote similar thing in 2012 -

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 018_1.html

a few points though -

we are ASSUMING that the IA wanted these Light Tanks as principal armored components in the fight against the Chinese. For all we know, they might be required for embedding with the Infantry Division(s).

the DNA article mentioned army officials as saying this -

Deployment of the light tanks is being considered as part of mechanised force in the high altitude regions as heavy tanks cannot reach there, they said.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-in ... er-1294892

that aside, IA wanted a supplementary RFI to be issued post 2009 RFI in may 2010. not sure if that happened.

http://www.stratpost.com/army-follows-up-on-light-tanks

[Sanku]

"chackojoseph" started succeeding once a Black Box was installed inside.

Do you have a single "open source" link for the black box. No "sources" please.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=a ... +black+box

There is some random stuff when I click on that link. Can you please be more specific.

[Sanku]

2 is an obvious pick. So its picked by everyone. One hopes that this infinite loop will terminate soon.

Who is everyone? This infinite loop is called development cycle. Why would you want to stop that?

Everyone is the stake holders who care when and how the tank is made.

This loop is not a development cycle. This was a broken development cycle. In a working development cycle, the product is ready on time more or less and then iterated upon. (we are talking about 20-30 years to develop the first cut of product here)

[Sagar G]

Here you go

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1435173

No even funny anymore. Your inability to understand simple things doesn't surprise me anymore.

The indent for 118 tanks is almost in the final stage. The army has said that it will decide if it is satisfied with the Arjun Mk-2, only after the trials (which began last month and are expected to go on for two to three months) are completed. The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) will require 30 months (2.5 years) from the placement of the order, for the first batch of Arjun Mk-2 to be delivered to the army.

Do you understand the difference here that I have pointed out ???

[Sagar G]

There is some random stuff when I click on that link. Can you please be more specific.

Step 1 - Click on the link (the one in blue colour in chacko's post)

Step 2 - Wait for the page to load.

Step 3 - Click on the first link that Google search engine is showing.

Step 4 - Read and most importantly try to understand what has been written in the article.

Step 5 - Come back and start again what you are good at (in case you somehow manage to understand what has been written then you can skip this step).

Is this specific enough ???

[Sanku]

Is this specific enough ???

I assume you have done that exercise, so can you be so kind as to tell me the answer to this?

Do you have a single "open source" link for the black box. No "sources" please.

There is a reason why Chacko did not answer my question and posted a google search link. Which is that he has ZERO credible sources backing this up. There was lot of in the media by MoD about "how can the tanks fail" and Pallam Raju had tried to say sabotage but in the end, what happened was that the tanks had failed, and it took a year of fixes before they passed again.

(Note this is a GoI site -- an official press release)

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=48844

One of the main issues during AUCRT trials was the failure of the bearings of Transmission of M/s RENK, Germany, due to rise in lub oil temperature. However, this was immediately solved by modifying the software during AUCRT itself and the efficacy of the software was proved for more than 4000kms. However a comprehensive solution of modifying the bearing assembly by providing a special coating was carried out to take care of the temperature problem and the retrofitment of bearing assembly being carried out in all the tanks.

BTW, this particular data point is ALSO beaten to death. It is just that people just dont stop trying to airbrush history and try and show that nothing really happened.

[Sanku]

Here you go

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1435173

No even funny anymore. Your inability to understand simple things doesn't surprise me anymore.

The indent for 118 tanks is almost in the final stage. The army has said that it will decide if it is satisfied with the Arjun Mk-2, only after the trials (which began last month and are expected to go on for two to three months) are completed. The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) will require 30 months (2.5 years) from the placement of the order, for the first batch of Arjun Mk-2 to be delivered to the army.

Do you understand the difference here that I have pointed out ???

Other than personal attack, do you have a point?

[Sanku]

Its a sheer pity that Pallam Raju and ALL the folks who shamelessly accused sabotage when it was not the case, have not had to pay for their antics and loose mouth. Its a greater pity that people continue to do that even when full facts are placed in the public domain.

[Sagar G]

Other than personal attack, do you have a point?

Ohhh back to standard tactic of playing the "victimized" card.

I will make it simpler for you do you understand the difference between "intent" and placing production order ???

I assume you have done that exercise, so can you be so kind as to tell me the answer to this?

That's where your problem lies, your "assumptions". Not surprised by your inability to follow those simple steps as well, you can carry on with your agenda.

[NRao]

Like I said folks, call the Arjun T-91 (Project 901) and be done with it. At the most the barrel may need replacement, but then there should be enough T-72 barrels around by then. Give it a nice leftover green paint too (inside).

[pragnya]

the 'sabotage' issue was discussed in the parliament too and was raised by an MP named sri. vijay j darda. the transcript (of parliament proceedings) can be read here - page no 17 in Hindi language - for those interested. Rao Inderjit Singh replied that there was no wrongdoing even though he had hinted of it earlier. can he accuse IA on the floor of the parliament??

[negi]

Sanku maharaj

Although none of us mortals here can engage you on a forum (whoever does that has to take rest for at least a couple of days from BRF) par wo kehte hain 'nar ho na nirash karo man ko...'

So why don't you keep aside the IA and CVRDE part and just list as to why T-90 today in it's current form is a better tank than the Arjun MK2 ?

We will come to IA's procurement plan later.

--brothers if I go MIA you know what happened, allah reham kar.

[Sanku]

Negi ji, I have never said that T 90 in its current form is better than Arjun Mk 2, however making a compative chart might be fun, so will do that.

[John]

Arjun and T-90 are fine tanks let's leave that it but overall MBT are obsolete in current fast shifting battlefield, pretty much every major military has come to that conclusion. Rather than putting $$ into further improving Arjun i would much rather have R&D on next generation of medium armored combat vehicles, even joint venture with Israel LAV program would be great step forward.

[negi]

^ You might spark a new debate with that statement.

Btw what makes you say that ? Be it the Germans, French, Soko , Chinese, Japan or even the Ru they all have fielded new MBTs in the last decade I am sure no one invests billions into such programs with just 10-20 year long road-map/vision ($hit that sounded so ppt khiladi types) these platforms will serve for at least 4-5 decades with MLU or with evolved versions. Even the British were in process of upgrading the Chally's MG to the L55 standard so looks like all of the key players are keeping pace with the developments in the MBT space. Americans are geographically blessed their need for MBTs is limited to power projection and not altering borders.

Besides iirc Rohit had made a post on this topic when someone else made a similar statement about the relevance of MBT in today's world. You might want to dig that up. In India's case given our threat perception both in the near as well as the long term and our geography with our neighbors we definitely need to maintain parity(if not better) with them in terms of both quality as well as quantity of MBTs.

[Victor]

have R&D on next generation of medium armored combat vehicles.

The infrastructure upgrades in the Himalayas, specially the NE are likely to remain a joke for another decade at least and one wonders why we haven't thought about a light wheeled tank. Having ploughed through the Arjun and other projects, we should be able to develop something like the Panhard with 90mm gun in relatively short time.

[srai]

Re Karan

Stop wasting time with Sanku. You should write a blog and cut and paste portions from there, because the import lobby will repeatedly raise the same old tired arguments. To add to your arguments it seems that OFB has been allotted around Rs 2500 crores for the production line of T-90s while the cost of Production line of Arjun is added to its cost. Further to increase the cost of Arjun Mark-2, Army has specified 3 thermal imagers while T-90s has one.

Army wanted a light tank for mountainous regions. When DRDO came out with 105mm + BMP combination, this requirement has been changed to T-90s. I ask why not Namica? which perform excellently in cold environs. What about Tank-X or Karan?

Instead of new orders of 300 T-90 MBT for mountains, the IA should be made to divert 300 from existing order of 1,600+. The IA can replace these diverted T-90s for the mountain areas with 300 Arjun MK.2 in the desert areas.

[John]

^ You might spark a new debate with that statement.

Btw what makes you say that ? Be it the Germans, French, Soko , Chinese, Japan or even the Ru they all have fielded new MBTs in the last decade I am sure no one invests billions into such programs with just 10-20 year long road-map/vision ($hit that sounded so ppt khiladi types) these platforms will serve for at least 4-5 decades with MLU or with evolved versions. Even the British were in process of upgrading the Chally's MG to the L55 standard so looks like all of the key players are keeping pace with the developments in the MBT space. Americans are geographically blessed their need for MBTs is limited to power projection and not altering borders.

Besides iirc Rohit had made a post on this topic when someone else made a similar statement about the relevance of MBT in today's world. You might want to dig that up. In India's case given our threat perception both in the near as well as the long term and our geography with our neighbors we definitely need to maintain parity(if not better) with them in terms of both quality as well as quantity of MBTs.

Yea we discussed that here for over a decade especially about how we need heavy armor to spearhead any attacks in a two front war etc but even assuming that arm chair generals are correct. For or better are worse that is very unlikely scenario in nuclear era and we need army to be more prepared for scenario' in decades to come from counter insurgency, small scale limited conflicts (kargil), border incursions, peacekeeping missions or even amphibious invasions'.

[chackojoseph]

Is this specific enough ???

I assume you have done that exercise, so can you be so kind as to tell me the answer to this?

Do you have a single "open source" link for the black box. No "sources" please.

There is a reason why Chacko did not answer my question and posted a google search link. Which is that he has ZERO credible sources backing this up. There was lot of in the media by MoD about "how can the tanks fail" and Pallam Raju had tried to say sabotage but in the end, what happened was that the tanks had failed, and it took a year of fixes before they passed again.

(Note this is a GoI site -- an official press release)

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=48844

One of the main issues during AUCRT trials was the failure of the bearings of Transmission of M/s RENK, Germany, due to rise in lub oil temperature. However, this was immediately solved by modifying the software during AUCRT itself and the efficacy of the software was proved for more than 4000kms. However a comprehensive solution of modifying the bearing assembly by providing a special coating was carried out to take care of the temperature problem and the retrofitment of bearing assembly being carried out in all the tanks.

BTW, this particular data point is ALSO beaten to death. It is just that people just dont stop trying to airbrush history and try and show that nothing really happened.

The black box fit and the AUCRT trials were two different events. Simple google search has given enough links. You are meandering as you have lost the debate.

[Singha]

euros are doing away with MBTs (dutch, belgians, germany heavy reduction) due to lack of a use case. precision 155mm artillery and airstrikes , plus guided long range mortar rounds are ok for holding on to isolated firebases and forts in colonial/bush wars.
USA still keeps a considerable number of MBTs for places like south korea and middle east. but again they also have a lot of Bradleys with N++ gold upgrades and air strikes always on 1-800 call, including orbiting bombers with tens of PGMs if the need arises. Russia crushed the georgia 'revolution' and the chechnya thing (2nd round) using standoff strikes and liberal use of grads & SP guns to support infantry. israel doesnt need too many merkavas to crush egypt or lebanon.

other than China, TSP and India nobody in the world faces a nearly equal enemy with good tank country to duel over + strong chances of a fight.

our use cases are very strong. we cannot afford to let world trends decide anything for us. we must lead here, not follow.

[NRao]

DRDO to export sonars to Myanmar soon

Main battle tank (MBT) Arjun in the enhanced Mark-2 configuration had some issues during the recent trials they would be resolved soon.