Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Oct 2013 18:19

its prahaar renamed for exports

. But cannot confirm if this is mere renaming.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 25 Oct 2013 18:20

Pragati is scaled down version of Prahaar ?

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 25 Oct 2013 19:23

Or scaled up version of Pinak. In fact earlier news items suggested that long range Pinaka was under development. May be this is that.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 25 Oct 2013 19:34

chackojoseph wrote:its prahaar renamed for exports . But cannot confirm if this is mere renaming.

Chacko,

you are right. it seems Prahar & Pragati seems to be the same missile. i was just cross checking sources/specs. one very small discrepency is the length. while you mention it as 7.4m Prahar is 7.3m. possibly the leaflet may be wrong. also the pic you posted seems to be the same as this one with photoshop as some one pointed out.

regards specs etc..

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2011/07/ ... -test.html

has the DRDO statement.

also more details here -

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zFq019PAa3s/T ... C00527.JPG

why would they want to rename it when Prahar was apt.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 25 Oct 2013 19:36

Narayana Rao wrote:Or scaled up version of Pinak. In fact earlier news items suggested that long range Pinaka was under development. May be this is that.

Pinaka is an MBRL and so will be the longer range one this Pragati is nothing else but Prahaar.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 25 Oct 2013 21:15

RajitO wrote:
Cybaru wrote:Nice tactical missile. With multiple types of payloads we have, a cheap & high precision missile like this will end up as the mainstay, call on demand artillery. That is pragati for sure!
Going a bit OT, but it is necessary to "nip in the bud" this highly mistaken PoV that refuses to go away on BR that missile artillery will replace tube artillery as the mainstay.

Re-posting something from the artillery thread...from the chaps who do this for a living.

I disagree. Not "replace" but "Augment" esp on ranges where moving in MBRL within range isn't possible as in our terrain and using air strike as seen as escalatory to conflict. Different strokes for different folks. A cheap tactical strike from within jammu to outskirts is suddenly now possible. Esp since the CEP is getting better and better. Our concept of High value target is different than theirs. A staging area for militants for us is a High value target, given the amount of resources needed to neutralize once within territory.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 25 Oct 2013 21:19

Chacko,

Thanks for your report. This is a very significant change for us. Great news.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 25 Oct 2013 21:34

First News Reports mentioned that Aakash, Prahar missiles to be displayed at Seoul Aero Show

Link

Then later other articles, post this article mentioned Pragati Missiles, so its a Downscaled variant for Export .

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 25 Oct 2013 22:11

If 170 km is downscaled range what is range of Prahaar?

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 25 Oct 2013 22:40

Cybaru wrote:
I disagree. Not "replace" but "Augment" esp on ranges where moving in MBRL within range isn't possible as in our terrain and using air strike as seen as escalatory to conflict. Different strokes for different folks. A cheap tactical strike from within jammu to outskirts is suddenly now possible. Esp since the CEP is getting better and better. Our concept of High value target is different than theirs. A staging area for militants for us is a High value target, given the amount of resources needed to neutralize once within territory.

So, augment is very different from the phraseology used earlier to which I was responding.

Though it is interesting that you see an air strike as escalatory and not a battlefield tactical missile whose launch profile and signature may be confused by the adversary with something carrying a nuke.

"Taking out" militant staging areas is a function of political direction, conventional arty was doing it in the Neelum valley in the 90s, when the forces had the mandate, they can do it again, without showing up on the "escalation radar".

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 25 Oct 2013 22:49

I'm guessing it will have a down scaled Transporter-Launcher rather than a down scaled missile, say an 8x8 instead of the original 12x12 monster.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 25 Oct 2013 22:57

How come a down scaled launcher will have any bearing on missile reach provided the missile dimensions don't change ???

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Oct 2013 23:28

Cybaru,

Thanks.

Pragnya,

Pragati missile has integrated onboard avionics system to reduce the size

Reduce size Compared to what? prahaar? The hint lies there.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 26 Oct 2013 01:20

Size is the same as prahaar isn't it. So they must have integrated Prithvi avionics int it.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 26 Oct 2013 01:23

Ajai Shukla is claiming that Pragati is a down-scaled version. Could be DDM'itis unless the wily DRDO folks have upgraded Prahaar to 250 Km.

Or it could be with downgraded accuracy.

Pragati might be a great offering for SoKo, given their sneezing distance from massed NoKo formations. Overall, our participation in the SoKo ADEX-2013 is fantastic news! Shows confidence & assertiveness

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 26 Oct 2013 01:25

Nice name too - Pragati, meaning Progress. Progress towards self-reliance & assertiveness

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Oct 2013 01:38

Dial-a-missile.

I like the fact these missiles have a range of range!! 60-170 Kms. 150-250 Kms.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Oct 2013 03:35

NRao its like least to max range based on trajectory and not payload.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Oct 2013 04:10

Prem Kumar wrote:Nice name too - Pragati, meaning Progress. Progress towards self-reliance & assertiveness

Should have been more aggressive but frankly, who cares about the name provided it is ordered and produced en masse.

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Oct 2013 05:02

Well one cannot rule out some confusion like it was with Dhanush .

srai · Post by **srai** » 26 Oct 2013 06:25

Finally some movement on the SR-SAM "Maitri" project:

Nod for short-range surface-to-air missile soon

Pranav Kulkarni : Munich, Sat Oct 26 2013, 02:03 hrs

A final nod from the Indian government on the Short-Range Surface-to-Air Missile (SR SAM) project is expected shortly. The project involves joint development of short-range surface-to-air missile for the three services by technology transfer from European MBDA in joint development with DRDO and Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) as the production agency.

The announcement of completion of negotiations between the two governments was made in a joint statement during French President Francoise Hollande's visit to India in February. Loic Piedevache, country head, MBDA, said, "We are expecting the project to be finalised very shortly. We look at India as a long-term strategic partner."

The missile is to be developed in two variants — ship-based variant for the Navy and land-based for the Indian Army as well as the IAF.

The consortium's another flagship project Milan 2T is expected to be further extended and contract for the same is likely to be signed "soon" according to Piedevache. "The modalities of production are still in discussion phase with BDL," he said.

It may be noted that the Defence Acquisition Council recently approved procurement of additional Milan 2T portable anti-tank missiles for the infantry. This, when the original manufacturer has moved to a more advanced extended range (ER) version of the missile.

BDL has so far produced 1, 2 and 2T versions of the missile. The consortium's PARS 3LR missile has also been one of the contenders for arming HAL's Rudra platform along with Israel. While the field evaluation trials were completed about a year ago in Sweden, a final decision from the MoD and the Army is awaited. HAL had handed over the first weapon systems integrated version of ALH to the Army in Aero India 2013.

While the increasing importance to the strategic cooperation between India and France was further underlined during former foreign secretary Ranjan Mathai's Paris visit in June that listed 'defence' as one of the pillars of strategic cooperation between the two nations, the DRDO in September 2011 had inked a deal with Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL) for increased cooperation between the two nations.

The consortium which has been working with the British MoD on various funded missile projects has also made presentations to the Indian agencies according to its UK officials.

(This correspondent is travelling to Germany and the UK on invitation from MBDA)

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 26 Oct 2013 07:28

chackojoseph wrote:Pragnya,

Pragati missile has integrated onboard avionics system to reduce the size
Reduce size Compared to what? prahaar? The hint lies there.

definitely not Prahar. as i pointed out you mention length as 7.4m for Pragati whereas Prahar is 7.3m from all available sources. rest is pretty much same. if at all there is an 'increase' in size as compared to Prahar.

unless ofc i am completely wrong and the reduction of size is wrt some other missile i am unable to pinpoint and that Pragati is a completely new system.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 26 Oct 2013 08:31

Speaking of South Korea, it is no longer bound by MTCR (amazing what being buddy-buddy with the US gets you).

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... 310070006/

While any attempt by DRDO to become commercially savvy and relevant is welcome, it would be more heartening to see an Antrix-like set up emerge, so these events don't become a flash in the pan.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 26 Oct 2013 08:59

RajitO wrote:While any attempt by DRDO to become commercially savvy and relevant is welcome, it would be more heartening to see an Antrix-like set up emerge, so these events don't become a flash in the pan.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-dr ... nd-1436812

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/eco ... 714615.ece

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 26 Oct 2013 09:54

pragnya wrote:
RajitO wrote:While any attempt by DRDO to become commercially savvy and relevant is welcome, it would be more heartening to see an Antrix-like set up emerge, so these events don't become a flash in the pan.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-dr ... nd-1436812

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/eco ... 714615.ece

So, I hope the irony is not lost that DRDO's Antrix-like arm is still nowhere to be seen despite the timeline of the DNA piece. Wonder which of the services will be blamed for this delay.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 26 Oct 2013 10:14

RajitO wrote:So, I hope the irony is not lost that DRDO's Antrix-like arm is still nowhere to be seen despite the timeline of the DNA piece. Wonder which of the services will be blamed for this delay.

the proposal is stuck with govt after clearance from MOD.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... do-defence

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 26 Oct 2013 10:45

RajitO wrote:Speaking of South Korea, it is no longer bound by MTCR (amazing what being buddy-buddy with the US gets you).

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... 310070006/

It wasn't the MTCR that was stopping the South Koreans from developing longer range missiles but rather some agreement with the US.

vic · Post by **vic** » 26 Oct 2013 19:37

Pragati seems a more "advanced version" of Prahaar. It is also important to note that they have developed versions mounted on lighter trucks which will make it more versatile.

http://frontierindia.net/india-creates- ... z2iq1gjYmL

New Delhi: India’s premier Defence Research establishment DRDO has created a new 60 – 170 km Pragati Missile System. Physical dimensions are 0.42 m diameter and 7.4 meter length.

Pragati missile has integrated onboard avionics system to reduce the size (of guidance package??). it uses Jet-vanes based Thrust Vector Control (TVC) during the boost phase. Another important characteristics of the missile is use of Aero-Dynamic Control (ADC) using electromechanical actuator (EMA) system for the remaining flight trajectory.

With a state of art RLG based Inertial Navigation System aided by Satellite Navigation, Pragati Missile boasts of a precision accuracy of CEP < 20 meters. The missile has a maximum velocity of 4 M and a total flight time of 120 – 360 seconds.

The missile system has quick deployment with salvo firing capability. The system includes One Battery Control Center (BCC) command & Control four launchers via Fiber Optic/LOS wireless link

The Mobile Launcher System (MLS) is configured on High Mobility Vehicle (HMV) 12×12, 8×8, & 6×6, for six, four and two canisterised missiles respectively. ( I have been recommending a similar configuration for Pinaka also to make it more versatile) The MLS is an all electro-mechanical auto leveling and articulation system for easy deployment and maintenance free operation. MSL is configured on the state of art computer based launcher control system for automatic operation powered through dedicated on board DG sets or PTO.

venku_Raj · Post by **venku_Raj** » 26 Oct 2013 19:49

Found this

Link

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Oct 2013 23:15

Interestingly, now we know how Prahaar can be configured as well - 6 round launcher, 4 round, 2 round..
There was an intent to provide trajectory correction to Prahaar - mid course guidance - wonder what happened to that. For higher accuracy/dynamic retargeting (perhaps).
Accuracy at first test @150km was mentioned as ~10m CEP, now its mentioned (for pragati) as 20m CEP, which seems to be the std figure given even a prahaar brochure mentions it.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 26 Oct 2013 23:52

TCS for Prahaar !!!! Wasn't it always meant for Pinaka ???

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Oct 2013 05:04

DRDO actually displayed a schematic, wherein they showed Prahaar with the ability to receive signals from a command post.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 27 Oct 2013 08:22

Spotted Nirbhay Launcher , When is the Second test ?

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 27 Oct 2013 10:24

Karan M, can you clarify the following please??

Akash orders for IAF stands at 8sq of which 1 is implemented (gwalior), 2nd is under implementation (lohegaon, pune) and the rest is as we know is for the NE.

IA orders is for 2 regiments and not 2sq as i had misread. now in the link you gave in the army thread AS mentions 6sq for army. obviously these would grow as would IAF's.

how are these army squadrons going to be distributed among the strike corps??

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Oct 2013 11:36

Video of Tor-M2KM Firing on Tata Truck

http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/ ... 1-e8qp.htm

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 27 Oct 2013 12:35

srai wrote:Finally some movement on the SR-SAM "Maitri" project:

Nod for short-range surface-to-air missile soon
... The consortium's PARS 3LR missile has also been one of the contenders for arming HAL's Rudra platform along with Israel. While the field evaluation trials were completed about a year ago in Sweden, a final decision from the MoD and the Army is awaited.

Field trials in Sweden? No summer trials at 50 degree C in the deserts?

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 27 Oct 2013 12:39

Karan M wrote:DRDO actually displayed a schematic, wherein they showed Prahaar with the ability to receive signals from a command post.

Hmmm interesting, have that schematic ???

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Oct 2013 18:04

Will check.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 27 Oct 2013 18:22

karan_mc wrote:Spotted Nirbhay Launcher , When is the Second test ?

This monster won't fit in the C-17 cargo hold, and they should do something about those huge boxes, even the foot print of a basic UAV like Nishant has 12 vehicles per wiki.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Oct 2013 18:30

pragnya wrote:Karan M, can you clarify the following please??

Akash orders for IAF stands at 8sq of which 1 is implemented (gwalior), 2nd is under implementation (lohegaon, pune) and the rest is as we know is for the NE.

IA orders is for 2 regiments and not 2sq as i had misread. now in the link you gave in the army thread AS mentions 6sq for army. obviously these would grow as would IAF's.

how are these army squadrons going to be distributed among the strike corps??

Need to check - basically, the Army took 2 regiments (need to check how many batteries they had), but there are reports that smaller, hence more mobile SAMs may also be ordered for the strike corps forward elements and Akash will be used for the more static VA/VP and C3I nodes.